Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Immortal Technique is speaking some real shit
Aladin:
Well the question is do you believe we live in a moral society.
The answer for those who believe will say yes.
We have a moral society were we have 2 face consequences for our actions in this life or what comes after.
The second question is what is the purpose of life.
If we believe in nothing then all we have is to satisfy our present as much as we can.
You know the term you only live once.
Since religion has been dealt with in the west. The West has been on a moral decline for quite some time now.
The Morals and values of our forefathers gets thrown out and replaced with new ones.
The consequence of that is that the women in the west are 2 busy with their career and looks and short-time relationships that they no longer produce that many babies. The west is growing grey and with no replacement in sight. Even the staunched secularist will admit that.
In sort we are realy floating without knowing where were heading.
Yesterday marriage was between a man and a woman. today they are obsessed awith gay marriage.
Maybe tommorow the decisionmakers will fight for the right of people marrying their pet.
Today they say abortion should be free available.
Tommorow we will say that the right 2 have children should be defined by certain criteria.
Problem with our society is this, we don't have a universal framework in which we can maneuver.
If Tommorow the so called intellectuals decide what the new normal is. The laws wil change with it.
God is not your enemy.
He created this world and you. And knows what is best for you.
God forbid usery, (Christian Europe used 2 fight against Usery).
God commanded us to honour your parents.
God commanded us to treat people like you yourself want to be treated
God commanded us not to deceive and lie.
God commanded us not to be arrogant
God commanded us to marry and have childeren.
But we the arrogant ones think that we don't need god's laws and we can do fine by ourselfs.
We have ourselfs 2 blame, no one else!
God is merciful and all forgiving. If we turn to him and ask him for guidance, there wil be no one on this world 2 fool us.
Forget these lunatics who do all kind of Godless things in the name of religion.
Fraxxx:
--- Quote from: Aladin on November 02, 2013, 03:13:57 AM ---Well the question is do you believe we live in a moral society.
The answer for those who believe will say yes.
We have a moral society were we have 2 face consequences for our actions in this life or what comes after.
--- End quote ---
Doing or not doing something out of fear of the negative consequences in this life or an assumed afterlife is the exact opposite of a moral decision!
Of course religion upholds values like altruism but the prospect of punishment in case of misbehaving ridicules the whole idea of doing something because it's RIGHT.
And these values or moral guidelines don't lose importance without faith in god. That is a rather negative approach to me.
--- Quote ---The second question is what is the purpose of life.
If we believe in nothing then all we have is to satisfy our present as much as we can.
You know the term you only live once.
--- End quote ---
If I don't bring harm to others and me, yes, that's all we have to do. I guess I don't have to tell you how very satisfying it can be to do good, even small things, and feel the sincere gratitude of others. As a last consequence you could label even that as an inherently egoistical act but I'd rather see that as our basic incentive than fear of punishment.
That's the theory but like I stated in my previous post, people are corrupted by their environment (or weak and stupid, depending on what mood I'm in :D) and not everybody's strong and clear-sighted enough to withstand and nobody all the time.
--- Quote ---Since religion has been dealt with in the west. The West has been on a moral decline for quite some time now.
The Morals and values of our forefathers gets thrown out and replaced with new ones.
--- End quote ---
I think modern times are both a gift and a curse and it's pretty ironic that the moment we develop a technical level and so much insight in the ways things work (from electricity to medicine to... I think you know what I'm getting at) we just continue fucking up the Earth which is literally the foundation of our existence only now with an even bigger impact.
So IMO modern times (at least here in Western countries and of course limited by financial constraints and such) grant a level of personal freedom that I wouldn't wanna miss and I'm even happier for those who would definitely have had it much worse back in the good ol' days.
On the other hand the possibilities of influencing people in ways that don't benefit them and society as a whole (e.g. materialism, excessive consumerism that promises fulfillment) through media and only in favor of small elite and some lucky bastards are too much for many to deal with appropriately.
--- Quote ---The consequence of that is that the women in the west are 2 busy with their career and looks and short-time relationships that they no longer produce that many babies. The west is growing grey and with no replacement in sight. Even the staunched secularist will admit that.
--- End quote ---
As if that would be an exclusively female problem. Well, if all that would make people HAPPY but, I too, doubt that most of the times.
I'd say that is more or less the same problem I described before. I'm not under the impression that today's opportunities for women to realize a lifestyle wich satisfies them as
(potentially ;D) talented, intelligent individuals is an issue but the result, which is parttaking in the same social and economical rat race that men believe to be supposed to compete in.
--- Quote ---In sort we are realy floating without knowing where were heading.
--- End quote ---
I agree in general, but think that the idea of a society led by religious guidelines in which all those problems are non-existent or even less predominant is an illusion. History has proven that times and times again. Morals don't need religion, they can just as well be rationalized. Heaven and hell might be better short-term motivations but aren't necessairy in principle.
--- Quote ---Yesterday marriage was between a man and a woman. today they are obsessed awith gay marriage.
Maybe tommorow the decisionmakers will fight for the right of people marrying their pet.
--- End quote ---
The woman in that video seems a liiittle strange, I give you that but I guess you wouldn't want me to go and link videos of religious nuts. Cause they are what they are, nuts.
I know a couple of gay people of which two are even catholic (which is retarted in my book) BUT that are twice as much gays who very much treasure the sanctity of marriage.
Just to put the significance of such a video in perspective.
Yeah, well, the next one is an absolutely ludicrous statement in terms of logic. Whatever the decisionmakers might advocate in the future they can't really do that on the principle that applies to consenting relationships between adults. At least, nobody ever could present a logically coherent principle to me that would condone both. But please try.
--- Quote ---Today they say abortion should be free available.
Tommorow we will say that the right 2 have children should be defined by certain criteria.
--- End quote ---
It's always about balance and the possibility of having an abortion under certain circumstances doesn't lead to your second point IMO. Wether or not some people might think that kind of population control could be argued on those grounds, to me that'd be a very cynical misuse of the argument. Just as cynical as principally refusing people the right of having an abortion or legally loving someone of the same sex by hinting those rights would as well justify bestiality or taking away people's basic right to have children at all.
--- Quote ---Problem with our society is this, we don't have a universal framework in which we can maneuver.
If Tommorow the so called intellectuals decide what the new normal is. The laws wil change with it.
--- End quote ---
Again, yes I very much believe there is such a moral framework, with or without religion. Gotta stop here but will definitely continue later. :)
Peace
--- Quote ---God is not your enemy.
--- End quote ---
I have no quarrels with god. I do believe that he's non-existent but whether or not that is true is of very little importance to me. I might discuss that topic now and then if it could make for an interesting, respectful conversation but I am at peace with myself and don't feel any urge to place myself above others, only because I think I'm right on that matter.
Just like so many people who believe, who I shared opinions with. Unlike so many bitter, insecure people that need the feeling of self-importance. But those people come in all shapes and colors and with every possible stance on Theism/Atheism.
--- Quote ---
He created this world and you. And knows what is best for you.
God forbid usery, (Christian Europe used 2 fight against Usery).
God commanded us to honour your parents.
God commanded us to treat people like you yourself want to be treated
God commanded us not to deceive and lie.
God commanded us not to be arrogant
God commanded us to marry and have childeren.
--- End quote ---
Don't think so. It does get problematic, though, the moment someone thinks he knows what that god dude commanded ME who never found the slightest hint that would make me even question his non-existence. I'm not adressing you here, don't get me wrong. But that's the issue with god and godly commands, how do you prove non-existence? Impossible! So I pass on trying that and let god's business be his. In fact, he never complained personally.
--- Quote ---But we the arrogant ones think that we don't need god's laws and we can do fine by ourselfs.
We have ourselfs 2 blame, no one else!
God is merciful and all forgiving. If we turn to him and ask him for guidance, there wil be no one on this world 2 fool us.
Forget these lunatics who do all kind of Godless things in the name of religion.
--- End quote ---
Wouldn't it be rather arrogant to assume to know god's laws? And which? You are Muslim, right? Jrome's Christian I guess. Might your definitions differ? That simple fact alone that there are billions of people with millions and millions of different opinions on what god's laws truly would be, with everyone sincerely believing in his own personal definition makes the whole theory of a set of absolute, god-given laws highly unlikely IMO.
But again, I very much believe in basic moral guidelines which can exist without godly commands and they often seem pretty similar.
Coming to an end now, I don't think you can simply claim morals for god and then dismiss all those lunatics as if it has absolutely nothing to do with each other. Then again, there would be one way to do that. Acknowledging all the good people that don't believe in god as much as the bad ones that don't.
Only, that would once more imply that there are just people who act based on morals and those who don't and that strongly points to what I'm saying all along.
Morals don't require god and religion and the abscence of both doesn't lead to mankind's downfall as an inevitable consequence of atheism.
Peace
jeanmiche777:
I'm a little bit off topic, but regarding the last few posts, I think it all comes down to this: We have the power to understand the world around us, but we can't create or change the rules, no matter what kind of society we want to build. The gift of knowledge is a curse at the same time. We are different from everything else on planet earth because humans base their actions on beliefs that we create in our minds. The natural laws of the world we live in will balance the decisions we make, no matter what those decisions are. Let's say we continue a few hundred years to follow capitalism. We will observe a change. We already see, in 2013, that our planet is responding as a whole to our actions, simply because we are disrupting the delicate balance of our world.
That is the whole problem with humanity. The problem is ourselves. Not the systems. Why is capitalism a broken system? Because it need continual growth to be effective. We have to CREATE wealth to sustain the system. Guess what, we don't have the power to create natural ressources. It is impossible for humanity, we are not God. Yet we continue to ''grow'' the economy, grow the debt and exploit all of our ressources.
The system we have to build should be simple, should follow the rules of the universe. We have to respect the balance of our planet. I guess the real question is: Will we survive our own actions? Because our extinction is the natural answer to our actions right now.
Aladin:
--- Quote from: Fraxxx on November 02, 2013, 06:03:24 AM ---
Coming to an end now, I don't think you can simply claim morals for god and then dismiss all those lunatics as if it has absolutely nothing to do with each other. Then again, there would be one way to do that. Acknowledging all the good people that don't believe in god as much as the bad ones that don't.
Only, that would once more imply that there are just people who act based on morals and those who don't and that strongly points to what I'm saying all along.
Morals don't require god and religion and the abscence of both doesn't lead to mankind's downfall as an inevitable consequence of atheism.
Peace
--- End quote ---
Thank you for making time and your critique of mine statements.
I would be lying if I said that people who do not believe are not good persons.
I dare say that I know more atheist that are truthfull and honest then some believers I know.
Also my christian and jewish brothers are not different then me.
There are more ways to Rome then One.
On the Moral law perspective, let us say that we agree to disagree. :)
V2DHeart:
God is the "sun", it is the 'higher' power, and one that most worship on 'sun'day
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