Lifestyle > Sports & Entertainment
WHO IS THE GREATEST QB OF ALL TIME?
M Dogg™:
--- Quote from: Shallow on February 03, 2014, 09:18:23 PM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg™ on February 03, 2014, 09:04:42 PM ---
I agree with Cham. In fact, before I read your response I was about to say, the bottom line is Montana was the QB in that offense and won 4 Super Bowls and it was his face that changed the game. Also, the rule changes happened later in his career. But what's the difference of rule changes in eras when it the game changes more rapidly than any other game in professional sports. If Brady played in the 60's, he'd be the GOAT, if Graham played today, he'd be Matt McGloin. You can't change history and say, if this guy was here, then he'd win... blah, blah, blah. If Joe Louis fought Wladimir Klitschko, he'd get KILLED. All this fantasy shit is bullshit. Greatest means, was this person great, in his time did this person stand to the best competition of his time and win. Otto Graham won, Johnny Unitas won, Joe Montana won, John Elway became the greatest scrambling QB, and Bart Starr won. When it comes to greatness, can you win? So after that, did you change the game? When you enter the game, did it change because you were there. And that's Joe Montana. You can argue Bill Walsh all you want, but Walsh NEVER won outside of San Francisco. He never lead an offense to the Super Bowl as an OC, or a college team to the National title, or an undefeated season. Walsh only won with Joe Montana. It was a great offense, but it took the right QB at the right place to win, and Montana was that QB.
--- End quote ---
You're ignoring key facts and lumping them in with my theories of what ifs. Ken Anderson learned the system before Montana and won and MVP with it. The first set of rule changes were in the late 70s. You can look at Terry Bradshaw's Superbowl numbers from the first two and compare them to the second two to see how they improved QBs. All this was before Montana ever won a ring.
Walsh took Stanford to two Bowl games and won both, and you're fucking retarded if you think Stanford could ever be in the running for a National Title game. And he only ever coached in the NFL with Joe Montana. It's not like he has a track record of losing in the NFL without Joe.
--- End quote ---
You are ignoring some key facts. Ken Anderson never won a Super Bowl in that system. Bradshaw was a product of the Steel Curtain and he's number are laughable compare to Joe Montana.
And Stanford was 9-3 and 8-4. In college football, Walsh looked good in the Pac-8, but he was not ready to coach against the bigger coaches nationally. If Walsh's system was so great, he's teams go 12-0 and we are looking at Stanford in the top 10 in the polls. Now, did Joe Montana help Notre Dame win a National Title? The defense rest!
Shallow:
--- Quote from: M Dogg™ on February 03, 2014, 09:26:07 PM ---
--- Quote from: Shallow on February 03, 2014, 09:18:23 PM ---
--- Quote from: M Dogg™ on February 03, 2014, 09:04:42 PM ---
I agree with Cham. In fact, before I read your response I was about to say, the bottom line is Montana was the QB in that offense and won 4 Super Bowls and it was his face that changed the game. Also, the rule changes happened later in his career. But what's the difference of rule changes in eras when it the game changes more rapidly than any other game in professional sports. If Brady played in the 60's, he'd be the GOAT, if Graham played today, he'd be Matt McGloin. You can't change history and say, if this guy was here, then he'd win... blah, blah, blah. If Joe Louis fought Wladimir Klitschko, he'd get KILLED. All this fantasy shit is bullshit. Greatest means, was this person great, in his time did this person stand to the best competition of his time and win. Otto Graham won, Johnny Unitas won, Joe Montana won, John Elway became the greatest scrambling QB, and Bart Starr won. When it comes to greatness, can you win? So after that, did you change the game? When you enter the game, did it change because you were there. And that's Joe Montana. You can argue Bill Walsh all you want, but Walsh NEVER won outside of San Francisco. He never lead an offense to the Super Bowl as an OC, or a college team to the National title, or an undefeated season. Walsh only won with Joe Montana. It was a great offense, but it took the right QB at the right place to win, and Montana was that QB.
--- End quote ---
You're ignoring key facts and lumping them in with my theories of what ifs. Ken Anderson learned the system before Montana and won and MVP with it. The first set of rule changes were in the late 70s. You can look at Terry Bradshaw's Superbowl numbers from the first two and compare them to the second two to see how they improved QBs. All this was before Montana ever won a ring.
Walsh took Stanford to two Bowl games and won both, and you're fucking retarded if you think Stanford could ever be in the running for a National Title game. And he only ever coached in the NFL with Joe Montana. It's not like he has a track record of losing in the NFL without Joe.
--- End quote ---
You are ignoring some key facts. Ken Anderson never won a Super Bowl in that system. Bradshaw was a product of the Steel Curtain and he's number are laughable compare to Joe Montana.
And Stanford was 9-3 and 8-4. In college football, Walsh looked good in the Pac-8, but he was not ready to coach against the bigger coaches nationally. If Walsh's system was so great, he's teams go 12-0 and we are looking at Stanford in the top 10 in the polls. Now, did Joe Montana help Notre Dame win a National Title? The defense rest!
--- End quote ---
Part of me wants to this this be because I think you're just trolling me and I don't think you're as fucking retarded as Cham.
All I said was that Ken Anderson didn't do nothing; big numbers with West Coast, and MVP and a Superbowl appearance in the same year, but in truth to think the the big game QB didn't exist until Montana is just outright false. Johnny Unitas in the late 50s was a pass first offense and a two minute drill that won the championship in OT.
And if you understand why a team like Stanford never stood a chance against the major teams in college, especially in the 70s then you simply have no grasp of what college ball. But I'll explain it to you. In the NFL the same set of the very elite compete for jobs on the same 24 to 32 teams. In college the best high school kids in the country go to the major schools first and then trickle down to the secondary sports schools. It's ridiculous to think a team like Stanford even today can compete against Alabama. It's a different calibre of players across the board.
And as for who has laughable numbers compared to who. I'll simply post the stats of both Montana's first Superbowl and Bradshaw's first Superbowl after the rule changes. I'll let you do the laughing, and you can tell me whose numbers were what by looking at the stats;
One guy was 17 for 30 for 318 yards 4 TDS and a 119.2 passer rating. The other guy was 14 for 22 for 157 yards, 1 TD, and a 100 passer rating. I'm not sure where the laughing starts but feel free.
M Dogg™:
First off, I said first big time franchise QB, not big game QB. But Montana was no stiff in the big games either. Let's just compare somethings between Montana and Elway, since everyone has Elway on their list and he actually played next to Joe Montana. It's a more far comparison.
If you take these players and make their careers even, since Elway did play longer than Montana. Montana did start his career in the rougher years of the NFL, and suffered a few injuries that cut his career short. Elway has more career years and more career TD's than Montana. BUT, if you take their stats and divide by the seasons they played and get a 16 game average stat, here is what you get.
Montana: 501 attempts, 317 completions, 63% completion, 3,772 yards, 25 touchdowns, 13 interceptions, a 92.3 quarterback rating and 11.4 wins.
Elway: 502 attempts, 286 completions, 57% completion, 3,565 yards, 21 touchdowns, 16 interceptions, a 79.9 quarterback rating and 10.3 wins.
Now lets do playoffs.
Montana: 23 games, 734 attempts, 460 completions, 62.7% completion, 5,772 yards, 45 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, a 95.6 quarterback rating and a 16-7 record.
Elway: 22 games, 651 attempts, 355 completions, 54.5% completion, 4,964 yards, 27 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, a 79.7 quarterback rating and a 14-8 record.
So in his own era, Montana was not only better than the next closest person, he was head and shoulders better.
Bottomline, Montana led the first ever pass first offense, Montana had the best stats of his generation not named Dan Marino, but Marino is not in the conversation because he could never lead his teams to win the Super Bowl. Montana led 31 4th quarter comebacks, for the highest average per season. Montana had a season in which he completed 70% of his passes! Before Montana in 1978, you won by running the ball and defense. After Montana in the late-80's, you had to get a QB who can throw, make decisions and build around them. He changed the game. That's why I put him #1.
Chamillitary Click:
Lol @ being retarded because I base my opinions off fact and what takes place in real life and don't say "Wow, you're right...if Brady played the Super Bowl on Mars vs. the Space Jam Martians he wouldn't have ever won because the lack of oxygen would prevent him from breathing."
Shallow:
--- Quote from: M Dogg™ on February 04, 2014, 08:53:43 AM ---First off, I said first big time franchise QB, not big game QB. But Montana was no stiff in the big games either. Let's just compare somethings between Montana and Elway, since everyone has Elway on their list and he actually played next to Joe Montana. It's a more far comparison.
If you take these players and make their careers even, since Elway did play longer than Montana. Montana did start his career in the rougher years of the NFL, and suffered a few injuries that cut his career short. Elway has more career years and more career TD's than Montana. BUT, if you take their stats and divide by the seasons they played and get a 16 game average stat, here is what you get.
Montana: 501 attempts, 317 completions, 63% completion, 3,772 yards, 25 touchdowns, 13 interceptions, a 92.3 quarterback rating and 11.4 wins.
Elway: 502 attempts, 286 completions, 57% completion, 3,565 yards, 21 touchdowns, 16 interceptions, a 79.9 quarterback rating and 10.3 wins.
Now lets do playoffs.
Montana: 23 games, 734 attempts, 460 completions, 62.7% completion, 5,772 yards, 45 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, a 95.6 quarterback rating and a 16-7 record.
Elway: 22 games, 651 attempts, 355 completions, 54.5% completion, 4,964 yards, 27 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, a 79.7 quarterback rating and a 14-8 record.
So in his own era, Montana was not only better than the next closest person, he was head and shoulders better.
Bottomline, Montana led the first ever pass first offense, Montana had the best stats of his generation not named Dan Marino, but Marino is not in the conversation because he could never lead his teams to win the Super Bowl. Montana led 31 4th quarter comebacks, for the highest average per season. Montana had a season in which he completed 70% of his passes! Before Montana in 1978, you won by running the ball and defense. After Montana in the late-80's, you had to get a QB who can throw, make decisions and build around them. He changed the game. That's why I put him #1.
--- End quote ---
You completely ignored my stats about Bradshaw. And glossed them over. If you look at Bradshaw after the rule changes you see huge jumps in his numbers and they are right neck adn neck with Montana's in the years they played at the same time. And if you see Fouts's numbers they blow Montana's out of the water. And who brought up Elway and why are you comparing him all of a sudden. Teams spent #1 draft picks on QBs looking for big time passers way before Montana. That first year Montana won a ring, Dan Fouts had 1400 more yards and 14 more TDs than Montana. The pass first offense goes back many years my friend. The start of the AFL in particular was what made the big time passing QB a famous entity. Joe Namath was a mega star when drafted, and he put of 4000 yards in 14 games in the 60s.
You're plain and simple dead wrong on this. I mean Roger Staubach was a gunslinging superman. They called him Captain America for crying out loud. The 8 years before Montana was on the Niners there were 3 QBs selected #1 in the draft. The 8 years during Montana in SF there were 3 QBs selected #1 and the 8 years after Montana left SF there were 3 QBs selected #1.
But feel free to ignore the plain and simple truth and skew whatever you want however you want.
I'll leave us with a quote by Bill Walsh:
"Joe Montana was a product of the system. Dan Marino was a system."
But hey, and I'm sure Cham agrees, current NFL players and Skip Bayless no more about QBs than Bill Walsh does.
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