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The Official Cleveland Cavaliers thread
M Dogg™:
--- Quote from: Chamillitary Click on March 04, 2015, 10:32:07 AM ---Hypotheticals are silly though. Could Kobe have won without Shaq? Without Phil? Without stealing Pau Gasol? If the NBA didn't fix Game 6 in 2002?
We'll never know. The road would be harder in the West, but there's no way of saying LeBron couldn't have won.
--- End quote ---
You are sort of right, but in this case you can't use this argument. I've always contended that it's the team that wins, not the player. The star player can choke in clutch moments, see Peyton Manning or LeBron's early days. But teams win titles and teammates can lift up a star player when the star can't or wouldn't make the big play. Like Robert Horry or Derek Fisher. So there are many variable s to winning. With that said, LeBron has played his whole career in a weakened eastern conference. It's one thing to say, oh you can't say what if, what if, what if.
But no one thinks Rocky Marciano is better than Muhammad Ali, even though Marciano never lost a fight. No one will ever say Wladimir Klitschko is better than Mike Tyson, even though Klischiko has a better record. Why? Because Tyson and Ali both fought in eras with better boxers. Both had to go against the best of the best. Ali fought in the best era of boxing history, and Tyson fought in the 90's against the kids of those who looked up to Ali and Frazier. Aside from the World War II era with Joe Louis, Tyson dominated one of the best eras in boxing. With team sports, no one is really in the conversation of greatest basketball player of all time, because the most difficult period to win was the 80's and 90's. And in that era, eventually Jordan dominated some of the greatest players to ever lace up high tops. LeBron's legacy as we speak, he'll be a first ballot hall of famer, but he'll be full of more questions than answers. What if he never went to Miami, what if he stayed in Miami, could he have made the finals as many times as he did if he was in the west? Those questions will linger over his legacy. He'll be the best player from 2011-2015, the Heatles will be a ESPN 30 for 30 one year, but he wouldn't be up there with Jordan or Magic or even Kobe. He'll be in that next tier, Dr. J, Elgin Baylor, Hakeem. I mean, don't get me wrong, that's an amazing place to be, but LeBron was suppose to be the next evolution of Michael Jordan.
http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=311148.msg3007946#msg3007946
Always remember who compared LeBron to Dr. J first.
Hack Wilson - real:
huge game for Cleveland tonight
Chamillitary Click:
I think you're buggin', MDogg lol.
You're being really generous saying "Jordan dominated the greatest to ever lace them up". He played Magic at the end of his career, played some good competition in the NBA Finals, but the East wasn't crazy for Jordan back then either. His biggest rival was like Clyde Drexler. Nothing away from Clyde, incredible basketball player, but there's definitely a handful of guys in the NBA right now who will be viewed as better than Clyde Drexler given they play a healthy, full career. And who are these elite perimeter defends guarding him? The biggest shot of his career Craig Ehlo was on him lol. He played with the best defender in Scottie. You're giving Jordan a pass on the competition he played against because 1. It's Jordan & he just has this aura of the perfect career. 2. Because it's been 15 years & you saw how the rest of the players of the era turned out in the eyes of history. LeBron's career trajectory is similar to Jordan's, you just can't see it for another decade or so. Early on, he established himself as the best player in the league, like Jordan, but didn't have the surrounding cast to compete with the Pistons or the Spurs, or the Celtics, like Jordan for his first few years. Then he got a squad, like Jordan & started winning. Now those teams that were too good for his old Cavs early on are all gone & the new kids are coming up. Now like Jordan around this age, he's got to beat the league that's in front of him. & right now you can say it's "weak", but like I said, ten years from now you'll look at the career of a KD, Anthony Davis, Steph, etc. & be like damn, Bron beat some great fucking players...if he wins. That's all it comes down to now, he's got to put up at least three more rings.
I just think it's silly you automatically act like Jordan & Kobe have no "what if" questions because it's convenient for your argument. You can't downplay Shaq. Shaq was the reason they threepeated. He won Finals MVP all three times. How does that not "linger" over Kobe's career? Then Phil & Shaq leave & Kobe can't do better than .500? Needed Phil back with by far the most dominating roster in the NBA other than the Celtics.
The tiers you mentioned are strictly ring based, which like I said is how LeBron will go down. He doesn't win, he'll just be viewed as the greatest player of the generation. He wins 2-3-4 more, he's the greatest of all-time.
Sccit:
--- Quote from: M Dogg™ on March 04, 2015, 11:50:17 AM ---
--- Quote from: Chamillitary Click on March 04, 2015, 10:32:07 AM ---Hypotheticals are silly though. Could Kobe have won without Shaq? Without Phil? Without stealing Pau Gasol? If the NBA didn't fix Game 6 in 2002?
We'll never know. The road would be harder in the West, but there's no way of saying LeBron couldn't have won.
--- End quote ---
You are sort of right, but in this case you can't use this argument. I've always contended that it's the team that wins, not the player. The star player can choke in clutch moments, see Peyton Manning or LeBron's early days. But teams win titles and teammates can lift up a star player when the star can't or wouldn't make the big play. Like Robert Horry or Derek Fisher. So there are many variable s to winning. With that said, LeBron has played his whole career in a weakened eastern conference. It's one thing to say, oh you can't say what if, what if, what if.
But no one thinks Rocky Marciano is better than Muhammad Ali, even though Marciano never lost a fight. No one will ever say Wladimir Klitschko is better than Mike Tyson, even though Klischiko has a better record. Why? Because Tyson and Ali both fought in eras with better boxers. Both had to go against the best of the best. Ali fought in the best era of boxing history, and Tyson fought in the 90's against the kids of those who looked up to Ali and Frazier. Aside from the World War II era with Joe Louis, Tyson dominated one of the best eras in boxing. With team sports, no one is really in the conversation of greatest basketball player of all time, because the most difficult period to win was the 80's and 90's. And in that era, eventually Jordan dominated some of the greatest players to ever lace up high tops. LeBron's legacy as we speak, he'll be a first ballot hall of famer, but he'll be full of more questions than answers. What if he never went to Miami, what if he stayed in Miami, could he have made the finals as many times as he did if he was in the west? Those questions will linger over his legacy. He'll be the best player from 2011-2015, the Heatles will be a ESPN 30 for 30 one year, but he wouldn't be up there with Jordan or Magic or even Kobe. He'll be in that next tier, Dr. J, Elgin Baylor, Hakeem. I mean, don't get me wrong, that's an amazing place to be, but LeBron was suppose to be the next evolution of Michael Jordan.
http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=311148.msg3007946#msg3007946
Always remember who compared LeBron to Dr. J first.
--- End quote ---
jordan got shitted on in the 80s...like cham said, it was only till the greats were out their prime that he started winning. i see what ur sayin tho. but dr. j > lebron.
Hack Wilson - real:
Lebron just passed Ray Allen in scoring
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