Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Questions to Christians....Jesus, Jewish?
Trauma-san:
1. The trinity doesn't exist, God, Jesus, and the Holy ghost are all seperate... the confusion comes from quotes from Jesus himself, in the new testament. Several times, he refers to himself and his father and the holy ghost, as being 1. For example,
John 10:30 - "I and my Father are one"
John 14:10 - "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works"
It appears with these two verses (and more) that Jesus is saying that he's his father on earth, they're the same person... he actually even says "I and my father are one". However, by reading the ENTIRE bible, not just a choice select few verses, it's quite obvious that the entire time, he's speaking of his father in the third person, or actually speaking and praying to his father. The key is in several verses in John, where he prays to his father, hoping that the disciples will become 'one' like he is one with his father... he's obviously talking about 'one' in mission, and in mind... there is also a lot of symbolism about joining the mission of christ, and becoming 'one' with him and his father, and the holy ghost (In the name of the father, and of the son, and of the holy ghost literally means that you are doing the same thing (being one) that the father, son, and holy ghost would do).
Read this, it totally clears it up.
John, Chapter 13, Verses 9 through 23
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
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It's clearly obvious that Christ is talking about being one in mind, in mission, in goal, not actually being 1 person... Honestly, guys, really, really, really look into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we understand this stuff with such clearity that it's uplifting to be members of the church. That's the main reason I think it's 'the' true christian church (not that other christian churches are bad or anything, just not totally correct)... the clearity of the doctrine is unbelievable, and totally 100% supported by the bible and the book of mormon. Joseph Smith was a genius, ever single confusing part of the bible he understood perfectly, and he was only 14 years old.
Anyways, I think that it's obvious the trinity is non existent, but instead means that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost think the same, and have the same purpose. Here's 1 last quote that proves, again, that they are seperate.. at Jesus's baptism, all 3 were present! How could all three of them be in the same place, if they were the same person?
Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
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There you have it. Jesus in the water, the holy ghost descending from heaven, and the Father speaking from heaven, saying he was well pleased in his son. (Notice he doesnt' say he's proud of his son, pride would be a sin.)
Why ANYBODY believes in the trinity is beyond me. Next, we'll discuss who founded the church, and the Jewish/Christian thing.
Jay ay Beee:
Could I just intercede at this point and say, that I am sure there are people who can make an equally substansive argument for the trinity using factual evidence as Trauma has done. However I'm not sure if anyone on the board is schooled enough in christian theology to accomplish this (Retarded Moron and Nostromo maybe - but i don't know if they believe in the trinity).
Also the comment "How could all three of them be in the same place, if they were the same person?"
belies a misunderstanding on Trauma's part of what the Trinity actually is.
Trauma-san:
Alright, this is a tougher one. You have to understand that God intended it this way from the beginning, like most religions believe, this is just one big cycle. We're right towards the end of it now, but we existed before we came to earth as spirits, and we will exist after we leave earth, with a spirit, AND the body we gained on earth. Even the evil will be ressurected, because by coming to earth, you were promised a body by god. In heaven we will have the pleasures of the flesh, and in hell, we will have the pains of the flesh.
When man was first put on earth, God knew that by giving them freedom, and leaving them away from him, they would sin. He knew adam and eve would do the one thing they were forbidden to do, that's why he called the tree the knowledge of good and evil! It was designed that way the whole time, without adam and eve physically dying, birth wouldn't be necessary, and without birth, the earth would never be populated. It was all a big plan, god wasn't deceived, he knew it would happen. All things are done to accomplish god's plan.
So, after Adam and Eve transgressed against god, they were made mortal, and would die. They had two strikes against them... 1, they were going to die, and 2, they had sinned. So they could not get back into heaven.
How do we overcome these things? By paying for them. God is fair, so we have to fairly pay for our sins, to regain admittance into heaven, after our earthly growth and experience is over. Since we can't possibly attone for our own sins, an immortal (someone who can't be killed) person was needed for it. That way, they could be punished forever if need be for the sins of the world, and attone for every single one of them (If I tried it, being weak, I would die before I even accounted for my own sins). The entire OLD testament prepared the way for christ... it was shown through sacrifices (always of the first born, best of the flock) that man continued to sin, and the sacrificies weren't enough to atone for it. The 10 commandments, if lived, would get everybody back to heaven, but if you break 1, you've sinned, and can't be with god. So you have to sacrifice something to pay for it. It's a never ending cycle of Sacrifice, and breaking commandments.
Why did god give us the 10 commandments, then? If Christ was the redeemer, why not just send him?
Because the whole bible, and the whole history of people since Adam, is a LESSON to all of us. We are "One" in purpose, again, to get back to god. First, we were born, as adam, and eve, and started transgressing. To Abraham, he gave the Abrahamic Covenant, to teach us to believe in the lord, to have faith. He told Abraham (by an angel) to have faith in the lord, and kill his son, and all posterity would be his. Abraham couldn't understand how killing his 1 son would bring him children, but he had such faith in the lord, that he was going to do it anyways. The lord recognized his faith, spared his son, and founded the 12 tribes of Israel through him. All saved people on earth who return to their father will be of Abraham's lineage, we're all Sons of Abraham, because he showed faith. For 2000 years, the Abrahamic covenant stood on the earth.
After that, God freed, through Moses, the jewish people. Why JUST the Jewish people? Because again, God was teaching all of us, through the actions of 1 people... He gave the jewish people, who had been faithfully praying to god since Abraham's time, 10commandments. Why? To teach them repentance... now, they had faith, and were being taught about repention, and sacrifice. They were preparing the entire world for Christ's gift of redemption to all of us.
Flash forward 1500 years. Faith has dwindled, and Repentence has dwindled. The priesthood has been almost totally lost from the world (John The Baptist had it, however)... The Mosaic law isn't working, because it isn't intended to. God knows man will still fall short, even though he has proved himself for their faith (through the miracles of the old testament) and even though he has given them the laws they need to return to heaven, and a way to repent (sacrifice) t0 get there. It's still not enough, so God plays his trump card, designed from the beginning of the earth.
He sends his son, Christ, who's immortal, he can't be killed. He's crucified, by his own people, just like prophecized, as a big lesson to the jewish people. Christ is punished infinitely to account for all sins ever while in the garden of Gessimine, and it doesn't kill him.. later, he lets his body die on the cross. By being punished infinitely, we're all saved (even those who came before him) because he paid the price for us being sinners.
Now, we have 1 other obstacle still to overcome, Death. We will all die, since we're mortal. God has promised us, and shown us, through his son, that we will all be ressurrected after a time, and our bodies will rejoin our souls, so we can stand and be judged. Easy as that.
Jesus changed the mosaic law, just like Moses changed the Abrahamic Covenant. That's why you shouldn't be Jewish... Jews believe that the saviour is STILL coming, to change the mosaic law. It says in Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Trauma-san:
That says right there that everyone that is a christian is a descendant of Abraham, who was Hebrew. It also says that there is no Jew or Greek, we're all the same, we're all 1 people in Christ, becuase that's how it was designed from the beginning, and he has already paid the price for our lives.
You don't have to believe in christ, because it's true, whether you believe it or not... you can't just pick and choose whether it's true for you or not. It just is. After you pass on, our veil will be lifted, and we'll see how everything truly is. We'll all understand the mission of christ, how the world was structured, etc. and we'll all be 1, sons and daughters of god. We'll all be judged according to our works. There won't be religions after we're dead, just Christ, and if we choose to follow christ, we will be saved, if we choose to rebel against christ, we will be rejected into Darkness with Satan and the others who rejected Christ. It's not about being IGNORANT of christ, as members of other religions are... they just don't know. It's about KNOWNING christ is the saviour, and of God, and rejecting his message. The only person that would do that would be a follower of Satan, because that's the same as actually doing evil.
So don't worry about being 'Tricked' into denying god, or being 'tricked' into the wrong religion. If you are good at heart, you will be judged accordingly in heaven. We'll all be together as Christians after death. That's why I refuse to say 1 negative thing about Muhammad, or Confucious, or Ghandi, or Buddah, or Sikh's, or Jain's, because we're all equal, we're all children of god, and after our life is over, we will all know the full story. Maybe I've been blessed to have a few more things revealed to me on earth than other religions, but that doesn't make me any better of a person. Muhammad was 20 times the man I was, and he's not christian, I know that just by reading about him. What god would glorify me more than him just because I lived in a part of the world where Christianity was popular, and I figured it out a little better? We need to focus on the similarities of our religions, not on the differences, and who's right, and wrong. Latter Day Saints believe if you kill yourself, you'll go to heaven. There's levels of heaven, and even the lowest (where suicide victims would go) is more glorious than anything on earth. It's for people like Muhammad, and Jesus, and Ghandi, and Budda, and Moses, and Adam & Eve, and other righteous people that the Celestial Kingdom, the highest heaven, is reserved. We can all get there, but even if we fall short, we'll still be glorified in a lesser heaven. It's like having 2 scoops of Ice cream instead of 3 scoops. Or talking to god 4 times a week instead of 5. I'm sick of seeing Christians tell muslims their going to hell. That's rediculous.
So, to answer the question, Christ was a jew, but he was *The* Jew with the authority to change judaism, just like Abraham and Moses before him. The only way back to the father is through him, the 'church' is Christ's. All church's are christs, some just do not fully understand his teachings, or misinterpret them, or even deny him completely, but all church's that are attempting to do what they perceive to be god's will are of god, and God loves all of us, not just the christians. Jews, at the time of Christ, should have all accepted his teachings. They didn't for various reasons, and now christian churches are jewish also, but the original jews are basically 'non christian' jews. All christians are jews, because it's the most updated (by christ) version of judaism.
As for Peter, he was the man. Peter comes from the greek word Petros, which means Small Rock. Christ himself was the "rock" the foundation of the church of god. 1st corinthians 10:4 says
14 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ
When Christ meets Simon (peter) he says John 1:42
And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
So, christ NAMED Simon "Cephas" which means "A Stone" and he was also called "Peter" which means Petros, a Small Stone (As compared to the 'big stone' christ himself).
Later, when Christ was at the last meal, the sacrament supper, he said Matthew 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Later, Christ taught Peter the ultimate lesson, when Peter denyed him thrice, and Christ predicted it, then looked at Peter as the Cock Crowed. That's how he hardened Peter into being the one to carry his message forward after that. Eventually, Peter's followers created the Catholic church, and over the centuries, corrupted Christ & Peter's original message. So, Christ was Jewish, he DID found his church,and he DID tell Peter he would be the one to carry it on.
Trauma-san:
--- Quote ---Could I just intercede at this point and say, that I am sure there are people who can make an equally substansive argument for the trinity using factual evidence as Trauma has done. However I'm not sure if anyone on the board is schooled enough in christian theology to accomplish this (Retarded Moron and Nostromo maybe - but i don't know if they believe in the trinity).
Also the comment "How could all three of them be in the same place, if they were the same person?"
belies a misunderstanding on Trauma's part of what the Trinity actually is.
--- End quote ---
The trinity does not exist. They are all 3 seperate. What other way is their to 'misunderstand' that? Don't fling accusations if you can't back up your reasons. That's like me saying "The Trinity doesn't exist" and not providing any reasons. Instead, I backed it up with factual information... unfortunately, you disagree, even though I 100% logically explained why it's false doctrine.
We are talking about FAITh, here, though, so if you believe it, even though it doesn't seem logical, I can understand that. I believe things that aren't 100% logical too, like the miracles in the old testament. Peace~
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