Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Last night I attended a public lecture by a Sudanese Shiek...truth about Sudan
infinite59:
Here are some key points from the presentation.
-Yes, the Jan Jaweed are what we would call in America, "thugs" and "gangsta's". But one Sudanese official told America, "We will stop the Jan Jaweed when you find Bin Laden"... meaning that the Jan Jaweed, perform their raids, hide out amongst the people, then reappear, do more dirt, hide out again, and on and on. They have been around for a long time, but they are very hard to identify, they are not an organized group with an organized leader, but rather a mysterious group of bandits who's way of life is dependant on raiding farms and villages.
-There is NO ETHNIC CLEANSING[/i]. Last night the Shiek had his son get up and stand next to him. Both of them are very dark skinned, but his son has a long looking nose that is an Arab feature, the Shiek explained that he would be classified as an African and his son would be classified as an Arab. That really, almost all of Sudan is very black and African, (except for a few select Arab tribes) although some of it's people may have Arab features. The Sudanese government for example, is very black, and to any of us we would identify them as black African.
-The government really doesn't have much involvement in the problem. They are not totally innocent, but they are definitely not totally responsible. Some people of the Jan Jaweed joined military wings of the government, just to obtain weapons to pursue their own vigilante objectives.
-The government has absolutely zero involvement in any of the reported "raping" that has taken place in Sudan. It is possible that some ignorant individual amongst the Jan Jaweed may raped a women during their raids, but rape is something in the Sudan that is punishable by death of stoning, and it is something that is HATED[/i] and NEVER[/i] happens in the Sudan.
-The severity of the conflict has been severely miscalculated. The number killed is less than half that of the reported number. The number of refugee's is also much smaller than is being reported. Many of the refugee's live and eat better on the food they are recieving at refugee camps, then the standard of living they had in their villages back home, this has motivated some of them to exzagerate the conflict and leave their homes for refugee camps.
-It is not a situation where the North is Muslim and the South is Christian. Only a small percentage of the South is Christian and despite many efforts made by the West to Christianize the South, the number of Christians is dwendling.
*************************************
....The Shiek offered some other items that fueled the conflict I can only touch on a few here
-Sudan's oil producing capabilities[/i]! Sudan knew it had oil decades ago, but Saudi Arabia bribed them into not producing their oil so that they could keep their monopoly on oil productions. In the recent years, Sudan has hired Iranian and Chinese companies to come in and begin pumping oil out of the Sudan. Since China is the biggest oil consumer in the world, and they are trading partners with Sudan, they are able to veto America and Britian in the United Nations, and protect Sudan from Western involvement. Sudan has spent it's oil revenue's on it's infrastructure and it has biult many hospitals and universities with it.
-Sudan is the largest country in Africa and has many countries upon it's borders. It has so many unique tribes and regions that in and part of neighboring countries and if you travel from one region to another in Sudan it is like going to a whole nother country.
-Sudan has a military style government and sometimes they try to force their issue's at the barrel of a gun. This causes many people to uprise against the government. For example they made a deal with South Sudan and neglected Western Sudan (Darfour). Some elements of Western Sudan demanded some consessions and the government tried to supress them militarily. This lead to conflict.
-Sudan was colonized by the West for 100 years, and like most African states, when the colonial power left, they left elements inside the country that would continue to decay at the peace and prosperity of the Nation.
***************
If you have any more questions or comments I can speak more on the topic here, I was only able to touch on a few key points, but this conflict has a deep history, and is very complex.
Woodrow:
I stopped posting in here, but I'm gonna make an exception to come here and fuck your whole world up.
It's funny to see you try and legitimize Jihad and the actions that are going on in the Sudan. It shows your complete lack of intelligence, common sense, and reason. You're no better than a fucking talking head. How does it feel not to think for yourself? Does it feel good to have somebody else think for you? You're a weak individual.
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ---meaning that the Jan Jaweed, perform their raids, hide out amongst the people, then reappear, do more dirt, hide out again, and on and on. They have been around for a long time, but they are very hard to identify, they are not an organized group with an organized leader, but rather a mysterious group of bandits who's way of life is dependant on raiding farms and villages.
--- End quote ---
So this makes it OK not to do something about the problem? The Arab backed government IS the problem. They are the ones who armed the janjaweed. LOADS of the janjaweed fighters are also members of the official Sudanese army. The Sudanese government gave official military uniforms to janjaweed fighters so they would be able to avoid scrutiny. The janjaweed and the Sudanese air force worked together to destroy whole towns.
It just shows your ignorance regarding this issue when you say that there isn't an organized leader. Musa Hilal isn't a leader of the Janjaweed? The US didn't issue a list of the 30 most wanted janjaweed leaders? Boy, I guess your sheik knows more than the United States AND the United Nations!
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ---There is NO ETHNIC CLEANSING[/i]. Last night the Shiek had his son get up and stand next to him. Both of them are very dark skinned, but his son has a long looking nose that is an Arab feature, the Shiek explained that he would be classified as an African and his son would be classified as an Arab. That really, almost all of Sudan is very black and African, (except for a few select Arab tribes) although some of it's people may have Arab features. The Sudanese government for example, is very black, and to any of us we would identify them as black African.
--- End quote ---
No ethnic cleansing? Are you kidding me? Have you done ANY research on this issue or are you just spouting off what the "Sheik" told you? It's COMMON Knowledge that there is ethnic cleansing going on in the Sudan. The entire world community acknowledges that. One man says different and you take all the evidence to the contrary and agree with him? Do you see how ignorant that is? The sheik that spoke is a bald faced liar. It's obvious that he's trying to play on peoples ignorance of the situation to garner support for the Jihad in the Sudan. It's also funny that you say "A few select Arab tribes" when in reality, 40% of the country's population is "Arab." Your ignorance continues.
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ----The government really doesn't have much involvement in the problem. They are not totally innocent, but they are definitely not totally responsible. Some people of the Jan Jaweed joined military wings of the government, just to obtain weapons to pursue their own vigilante objectives.
--- End quote ---
Once again, this is a complete and utter lie. Why would you take the word of this "Sheik" over the ENORMOUS amount of evidence that proves him wrong?
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM --- -The government has absolutely zero involvement in any of the reported "raping" that has taken place in Sudan. It is possible that some ignorant individual amongst the Jan Jaweed may raped a women during their raids, but rape is something in the Sudan that is punishable by death of stoning, and it is something that is HATED[/i] and NEVER[/i] happens in the Sudan.
--- End quote ---
So you just said that the janjaweed joined the government army, but now the government doesn't have any involvement in the raping and killing going on? Now you are contradicting your OWN words. It's obvious to anybody with half a brain that you're talking out of your ass.
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ----The severity of the conflict has been severely miscalculated. The number killed is less than half that of the reported number. The number of refugee's is also much smaller than is being reported. Many of the refugee's live and eat better on the food they are recieving at refugee camps, then the standard of living they had in their villages back home, this has motivated some of them to exzagerate the conflict and leave their homes for refugee camps.
--- End quote ---
So if the numbers are wrong, that makes everything that's going on ok? I like how you try and justify that the refugees are better of living on the borders. That's more of your bankrupt logic. This kid looks like he's having a GREAT time in the refugee camp. Even if the numbers are cut in half, 500,000 people are displaced, and 15 to 30 thousand people killed since the conflict started last year.
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ----It is not a situation where the North is Muslim and the South is Christian. Only a small percentage of the South is Christian and despite many efforts made by the West to Christianize the South, the number of Christians is dwendling.
--- End quote ---
2 million Christians is a "Small percentage"??? Come on. It's obvious by your comments above what your true motivation for this post was. You're trying to justify Jihad and Dhimmitude in the Sudan. You're trying to support the spread of Islam through violent means. You disgust me with your ignorance. One more question. What about all the local tribes who aren't "protected" under Sharia? It's obvious by your comments above what your true motivation for this post was. You're trying to justify Jihad and Dhimmitude in the Sudan. You're trying to support the spread of Islam through violent means. You disgust me with your ignorance. One more question. What about all the local tribes who aren't "protected" under Sharia?
I hope your dreams are haunted by the cries of thousands of African babies, murdered in the name of Jihad.
For anybody who wants to do some REAL research on the subject rather than ignore facts, should check out these sites.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/su.html
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040830fa_fact1
http://www.mideasti.org/countries/countries.php?name=sudan
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L02610633.htm
http://www.fact-index.com/d/di/discrimination_against_non_muslims_in_sudan.html
white Boy:
--- Quote from: Woodrow on August 24, 2004, 12:35:21 PM ---I stopped posting in here
--- End quote ---
why?
Thirteen:
probably because he realizes it's pointless and a waste of time like i did
this section should be called "train of opinions" because hardly any thought goes on around here. once you read the title on the thread, people already have their minds made up of what they are going to say...for example, if it's something good america has done, people will bring up slavery. if it's a terrorist bombing, it's not the terrorist's fault and so on
tommyilromano:
Nicely done.. He is full of shit but I think everyone knows that.
--- Quote from: Woodrow on August 24, 2004, 12:35:21 PM ---I stopped posting in here, but I'm gonna make an exception to come here and fuck your whole world up.
It's funny to see you try and legitimize Jihad and the actions that are going on in the Sudan. It shows your complete lack of intelligence, common sense, and reason. You're no better than a fucking talking head. How does it feel not to think for yourself? Does it feel good to have somebody else think for you? You're a weak individual.
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ---meaning that the Jan Jaweed, perform their raids, hide out amongst the people, then reappear, do more dirt, hide out again, and on and on. They have been around for a long time, but they are very hard to identify, they are not an organized group with an organized leader, but rather a mysterious group of bandits who's way of life is dependant on raiding farms and villages.
--- End quote ---
So this makes it OK not to do something about the problem? The Arab backed government IS the problem. They are the ones who armed the janjaweed. LOADS of the janjaweed fighters are also members of the official Sudanese army. The Sudanese government gave official military uniforms to janjaweed fighters so they would be able to avoid scrutiny. The janjaweed and the Sudanese air force worked together to destroy whole towns.
It just shows your ignorance regarding this issue when you say that there isn't an organized leader. Musa Hilal isn't a leader of the Janjaweed? The US didn't issue a list of the 30 most wanted janjaweed leaders? Boy, I guess your sheik knows more than the United States AND the United Nations!
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ---There is NO ETHNIC CLEANSING[/i]. Last night the Shiek had his son get up and stand next to him. Both of them are very dark skinned, but his son has a long looking nose that is an Arab feature, the Shiek explained that he would be classified as an African and his son would be classified as an Arab. That really, almost all of Sudan is very black and African, (except for a few select Arab tribes) although some of it's people may have Arab features. The Sudanese government for example, is very black, and to any of us we would identify them as black African.
--- End quote ---
No ethnic cleansing? Are you kidding me? Have you done ANY research on this issue or are you just spouting off what the "Sheik" told you? It's COMMON Knowledge that there is ethnic cleansing going on in the Sudan. The entire world community acknowledges that. One man says different and you take all the evidence to the contrary and agree with him? Do you see how ignorant that is? The sheik that spoke is a bald faced liar. It's obvious that he's trying to play on peoples ignorance of the situation to garner support for the Jihad in the Sudan. It's also funny that you say "A few select Arab tribes" when in reality, 40% of the country's population is "Arab." Your ignorance continues.
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ----The government really doesn't have much involvement in the problem. They are not totally innocent, but they are definitely not totally responsible. Some people of the Jan Jaweed joined military wings of the government, just to obtain weapons to pursue their own vigilante objectives.
--- End quote ---
Once again, this is a complete and utter lie. Why would you take the word of this "Sheik" over the ENORMOUS amount of evidence that proves him wrong?
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM --- -The government has absolutely zero involvement in any of the reported "raping" that has taken place in Sudan. It is possible that some ignorant individual amongst the Jan Jaweed may raped a women during their raids, but rape is something in the Sudan that is punishable by death of stoning, and it is something that is HATED[/i] and NEVER[/i] happens in the Sudan.
--- End quote ---
So you just said that the janjaweed joined the government army, but now the government doesn't have any involvement in the raping and killing going on? Now you are contradicting your OWN words. It's obvious to anybody with half a brain that you're talking out of your ass.
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ----The severity of the conflict has been severely miscalculated. The number killed is less than half that of the reported number. The number of refugee's is also much smaller than is being reported. Many of the refugee's live and eat better on the food they are recieving at refugee camps, then the standard of living they had in their villages back home, this has motivated some of them to exzagerate the conflict and leave their homes for refugee camps.
--- End quote ---
So if the numbers are wrong, that makes everything that's going on ok? I like how you try and justify that the refugees are better of living on the borders. That's more of your bankrupt logic. This kid looks like he's having a GREAT time in the refugee camp. Even if the numbers are cut in half, 500,000 people are displaced, and 15 to 30 thousand people killed since the conflict started last year.
--- Quote from: Hajj Ibrahim Islam on August 24, 2004, 06:33:23 AM ----It is not a situation where the North is Muslim and the South is Christian. Only a small percentage of the South is Christian and despite many efforts made by the West to Christianize the South, the number of Christians is dwendling.
--- End quote ---
2 2 million Christians is a "Small percentage"??? Come on. It's obvious by your comments above what your true motivation for this post was. You're trying to justify Jihad and Dhimmitude in the Sudan. You're trying to support the spread of Islam through violent means. You disgust me with your ignorance. One more question. What about all the local tribes who aren't "protected" under Sharia? It's obvious by your comments above what your true motivation for this post was. You're trying to justify Jihad and Dhimmitude in the Sudan. You're trying to support the spread of Islam through violent means. You disgust me with your ignorance. One more question. What about all the local tribes who aren't "protected" under Sharia?
I hope your dreams are haunted by the cries of thousands of African babies, murdered in the name of Jihad.
For anybody who wants to do some REAL research on the subject rather than ignore facts, should check out these sites.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/su.html
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040830fa_fact1
http://www.mideasti.org/countries/countries.php?name=sudan
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L02610633.htm
http://www.fact-index.com/d/di/discrimination_against_non_muslims_in_sudan.html
--- End quote ---
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