Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Nov. 2 is almost here. Get out and vote KERRY/EDWARDS.
Ant:
I really was not arguing my opinions. I was simply pointing out that a large number of credible minds want Bush out. Yes, it is my belief that an informed voter wants Bush out. But that is not always the case. Some people are simply unshakable and regardless of the evidence they aren't going to change their mind. I believe you are probably one of those people, but other people on this forum are willing to listen to resonable evidence.
Basically, a lot of people vote their ideology. But I agree with you. Just because its your ideology does not make it the correct ideology. That doesn't take away from the fact that there is enormous evidence opposing a Bush presidency. I'll put one more reason not to vote GWB forward. His lack of moral character. In fact his greatest strength is even questionable. Why? Just look at the campaign. He is trying to win based on exageration, deception, and at times outright lies. That thoroughly disturbs me.
Example 1: "We need to fight the terrorists over there so we don't have to fight them here." This statement is simply absurd. Its an attempt to scare, and deceive the public into voting Bush. Does anyone really think its possible to kill all the terrorists? And does anyone really think they can't make it over here. Thousands cross our borders every day. My friend uses an expired passport every time he boards a plane just to see if he will ever get caught. He hasn't.
Example 2: "John Kerry says we need to pass a Global Test before we go to war. He will let other countries veto our decisions to defend ourselves." This is just an outright deception. Bush failed in the first debate and then needed to cling to something so he took the 'global test' line completely out of context. It shows the extent to which he will go to manipulate the public. What Kerry really said was "If i'm president I'll take this country to war in such a way that when we look back on our actions we pass the test, we pass the global test, where we retain our integrity in own eyes, and in the eyes of the rest of the world." He was simply saying... he won't take us into a war we will be embarassed about. He won't lead us into another Vietnam... but Bush mischaracterized.
Example 3: Cheney saying to Edwards "I never met you in person until today" Except he was caught on video with Edwards.
Example 4: The nuisance line. Again Bush jumped on an opportunity to mischaracterize Kerry's words. I'm not going to get into it. Go read the full quote from Kerry and then read how bush tried to reframe the quote to mean something else.
Example 5: The all out charge to brand Kerry as the biggest liberal ever. Why are we trying to brand our opponents with labels instead of ACTUALLY DEBATING THEM..... name calling is just entirely inappropriate and if you do some research this label isn't even true.
Example 6: The all out charge the brand Kerry as huge flip-flopper. Kerry said this the day he cast his vote to give GW the authority to go to war... its the same thing he is still saying today.
Kerry (Oct. 9, 2002) Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him (Saddam) by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.
Example 7: His entirely anti-conservative decision to protect the pharmaseutical market. The pharma companies gave big money to GW and the RNC and GW gave them protection from international competition. Nevermind that convervatives for years have been opposed to economic protectionism.
There are plenty of others, but i'm sure you don't want to read this post all nite. Simply put... instead of debating the issues, Bush runs a campaign based on fear, deception, and name-calling.
Trauma-san:
That's a perfect example. You see Bush running a campaign based on fear and deception, but I've watched the same ads, the same debates, heard Bush saying the same things, and I believe what he says is pretty reasonable and accurate. So, you see it one way, I see it another way. You are not the arbitrator of truth for me, and I cannot arbitrate what is the truth for you. We both see it, and we both make up our minds, and perhaps we both feel totally different about it. That doesn't make either one of us less intelligent, or uninformed; we've both seen the same info, we've both thought about it, and we've both came to two totally different conclusions. There IS no right or wrong answer in this, because it's not objective. It's subjective. We're all evaluating and making our own decisions.
So I think you're wrong when you assume that people who vote Bush are ignorant of information, or that they don't want to change their opinion. Some people just disagree with you. If nobody disagreed, all you'd have to do is make people listen, and nobody would have any choice save abandoning their beliefs, because we'd all believe the same.
Ant:
You don't defeat facts by calling them opinions.. That fact that you don't see exagerations and deceptions doesn't mean they don't exist. Only a person willing to consider both sides will see the truth. You're not one of those poeple. You can argue all day, "i'm entitled to my opinion too.\," but that proves very little. The bottom line is, Bush support can't stand up to criticism. Time and time again I've seen Bush supporters run from the arguments, or try to reframe the debate. You have yet to dispute one claim I've made against your candidate. Your only argument is "I'm allowed to have opinions too! and if my opinions can be wrong so can yours." Then you'll do what your candidate does himself. When faced with an argument you just can't win, pick off one line that you can counter and attack that while ignoring the stronger points. I've put forward plenty of strong points. I gave links to even stronger arguements. Where is your support? Where are logical arguments supporting Bush. I have yet to hear one from anybody, and I would like to. If only so I can rest at nite and say to myself, well maybe he isn't all that bad, maybe all the evidence that shows that he is degrading our national security, destroying the economy, and getting bought off by lobbyists is wrong.
You may never change your opinion. But it is clear to other poeple reading this post, and to the informed minds of the country your wrong.
Ozir:
--- Quote from: Ant on October 19, 2004, 06:37:43 AM ---You don't defeat facts by calling them opinions.. That fact that you don't see exagerations and deceptions doesn't mean they don't exist. Only a person willing to consider both sides will see the truth. You're not one of those poeple. You can argue all day, "i'm entitled to my opinion too.\," but that proves very little. The bottom line is, Bush support can't stand up to criticism. Time and time again I've seen Bush supporters run from the arguments, or try to reframe the debate. You have yet to dispute one claim I've made against your candidate. Your only argument is "I'm allowed to have opinions too! and if my opinions can be wrong so can yours." Then you'll do what your candidate does himself. When faced with an argument you just can't win, pick off one line that you can counter and attack that while ignoring the stronger points. I've put forward plenty of strong points. I gave links to even stronger arguements. Where is your support? Where are logical arguments supporting Bush. I have yet to hear one from anybody, and I would like to. If only so I can rest at nite and say to myself, well maybe he isn't all that bad, maybe all the evidence that shows that he is degrading our national security, destroying the economy, and getting bought off by lobbyists is wrong.
You may never change your opinion. But it is clear to other poeple reading this post, and to the informed minds of the country your wrong.
--- End quote ---
Truth is being delivered here! :cheers:
On November 2nd, VOTE FOR KERRY!
Trauma-san:
Whatever you say, man. Just don't feel too upset if Kerry loses, you seem to have a lot invested in 'the truth'.
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