Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Do Americans who are voting Kerry vote for him for any reason besides...
*Jamal*:
7even *check*
Shallow *check*
8)
Shallow:
You have serious issues you know that?
All I said was what I thought the system should be like. I feel it would be more fair to the masses if the masses got to decide what their fate was. Going to war would be up to the people, not one man. This is just my opinion. I never meant to imply it has to be this way in order for us to strive. Alexander Hamilton has another opinion. But, if you think that the whole idea of this style of democracy was for anything other than keeping rich white men on top of the food chain, then you are a fool.
Oh and I said citizens in ancient Greece. I didn't say intellectuals. Citizens would imply all those who could vote, and yes that was just Greek males. I know that, and I never said all intelligent intelligent people. Try learning how to properly derive information through reading before you *check* me.
M Dogg™:
--- Quote from: *Jamal* on October 22, 2004, 09:29:23 PM ---By the way, you stated "only the interested and intelligent will vote, and interest and intelligence will be encouranged as a whole". Do you know that this was part of the reason that the electoral college was used in the first place? Obviously you didn't, but someone who PROBABLY knows better than you said this:
"It was ... desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the [office of the Presidency] ... A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations"
---- Alexander Hamilton
Personally, I think Mr. Hamilton knows a little more about this stuff than some retard named Shallow.
--- End quote ---
you have to remember though how outdated that way of thinking is. The founders of this country did not trust the early Americans for a very good reason, no one at that time would see the people runnig for president, nor would they hear them, know them, have any ideas what was going on in the capital. That's why the United States is more of a republic than a democracy. Democracy, everyone votes on everything. Every law that's passed, every bill, everything. Almost like California's propositions, we vote on everything, tax increases, tax cuts, school spending, school cutting, mary jane for medical use, we vote on everything. But the United States does not work like that, we vote in our representives to vote for us in the capital. Our reps vote on laws, taxes, federal things, so basically we are not a true democracy but a republic. That's all good, but I think, that is every single person in our offices are voted by popular vote, I think it is time to vote for our president by popular vote. We should vote for our president as a whole nation, not as divided states. Also, the days of Hamilton are over, we are more informed, we see the people running for presidents in our daily lives. We can make an educated vote on our own, not through no electorial college. It's time to change our system, because our system failed us in 2000 when the man that won the vote lost the election, and we are seeing how it is failing now. We are at a time when only 9 states matter because their populations are split, well other states are ignored because they swing a certain way. Well news flash, in California, there are Republicans too, don't believe me, look at our governor, or the fact that Grey Davis was the only Democrat governor since 1982, and look at what happened to him. Also, in Texas, there are Democrats, don't believe me, why do they usually vote in Democrat governors. Each state has proven to not always vote for a certain party, so why have this system when you ignore 36 million people, just to pay attention to a state with like 9 million. That not demoracy, or even a republic, it's straight up elitism.
*Jamal*:
--- Quote from: Shallow on October 22, 2004, 09:45:16 PM ---
Oh and I said citizens in ancient Greece. I didn't say intellectuals. Citizens would imply all those who could vote, and yes that was just Greek males. I know that, and I never said all intelligent intelligent people. Try learning how to properly derive information through reading before you *check* me.
--- End quote ---
You said "In ancient Greece EVERY citizen was completely aware of what was going on politically."
Do you have any proof of that? Are you saying that EVERY free adult male was completely aware of all the issues? Can you also compare the population of "ancient Greece" to ours?
You're right about one thing... I shouldn't have checked you.... *check mate*
*Jamal*:
--- Quote from: M Dogg on October 22, 2004, 10:20:33 PM ---
you have to remember though how outdated that way of thinking is. The founders of this country did not trust the early Americans for a very good reason, no one at that time would see the people runnig for president, nor would they hear them, know them, have any ideas what was going on in the capital. That's why the United States is more of a republic than a democracy. Democracy, everyone votes on everything. Every law that's passed, every bill, everything. Almost like California's propositions, we vote on everything, tax increases, tax cuts, school spending, school cutting, mary jane for medical use, we vote on everything. But the United States does not work like that, we vote in our representives to vote for us in the capital. Our reps vote on laws, taxes, federal things, so basically we are not a true democracy but a republic. That's all good, but I think, that is every single person in our offices are voted by popular vote, I think it is time to vote for our president by popular vote. We should vote for our president as a whole nation, not as divided states. Also, the days of Hamilton are over, we are more informed, we see the people running for presidents in our daily lives. We can make an educated vote on our own, not through no electorial college. It's time to change our system, because our system failed us in 2000 when the man that won the vote lost the election, and we are seeing how it is failing now. We are at a time when only 9 states matter because their populations are split, well other states are ignored because they swing a certain way. Well news flash, in California, there are Republicans too, don't believe me, look at our governor, or the fact that Grey Davis was the only Democrat governor since 1982, and look at what happened to him. Also, in Texas, there are Democrats, don't believe me, why do they usually vote in Democrat governors. Each state has proven to not always vote for a certain party, so why have this system when you ignore 36 million people, just to pay attention to a state with like 9 million. That not demoracy, or even a republic, it's straight up elitism.
--- End quote ---
Did you and Shallow not attend school here or what? I started learning about this in elementary, and continued to throughout middle and high school. First of all, how the fuck can you say this is not a "democracy"? It's called REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.
Then you go on to say that "we are more informed", while Shallow says that we're not as informed as they were in the past. How can you two be arguing the same thing, but give me two opposite reasons? LOLLLL you idiots are hillarious.
If each state has not always proven to vote for a certain party, then the electoral college shouldn't have too much of an effect on the people's choice, since each party has an "equal opportunity" in each state. You said it, not me.
Furthermore, what you just explained as "voting as states" is an aspect of federalism. I'm assuming you didn't learn anything about this either.
Don't they have a "U.S. History/Government for Dummies" book you guys could read? Now that I think about it, even that would be on a reading level far above the one you can understand.
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