PS3 vs X-Box 360 (specs)

[Don Seer]

Sony's RAM is NOT better.. they have the same speed stuff but half as much..

how is half of the same damn thing BETTER?

How do they got half as much, it's 2x256 = 512 = same amount as XBox, except that 256 of it is XDR RAM.  ??

I'm no RAM expert, but I have yet to see a article that doesn't say that XDR is not faster/better than GDDR.
You say ps3 has half as much dedicated video memory, but what's the remaining 256 for then..

the other 256 is system memory..

this means programs and game data structures are kept here while the other (faster) 256 is used for graphics.

PS3 is following the model PCs use for memory management where video cards have seperate memory.
this means all video data first needs to pass from system memory to video memory
i already tried to explain that writes = bad.


with microsofts solution all memory is directly accessible by everthing
tthey made things flexible by having 512 addressable memory
the programmer then decides what he uses that memory for themselves.

i will break it down in three cases so you may understand more.

i added a speed rating for  each phase

reads from disk = slower
writes to memory = slow
reads from memory = fast   (all reads from xbox memory, reads from PS3 system memory)
reads from memory = faster (reads from PS3 video memory)



first case when a texture needed right _now_ is loaded already in video memory from disk

in both cases..

PS3 >  read from vid memory -> GPU  (faster)
XBOX >  read from dual purpose memory -> GPU (fast)

conclusion: PS3. this is purely down to the slight advantage in speed PS3 has.

_however_ microsoft has much much more space to store things here which other cases will highlight.

for small less complex, less texture rich scenes PS3 can outperform in memory speed..

AND this doesnt take into account the nvidia vs ATI battle beyond that..
if ATI has better texture compression.. it narrows the gap more

second take the case when a texture needed _now_ is loaded from disk in both cases.

this is whats happening when your harddisk/cdrom/dvdrom access slows down a game.

PS3  = read from disk (slower) into system memory (slow), then write into video memory( slow) then read (faster)
Xbox = read from disk (slower) into dual purpose memory (slow), then read (fast) by GPU

notice one write step is removed with xbox?

writes will be slower than the speed difference between the faster memory on the PS3
this won't happen more on either system.. unlike the case 3.

conclusion : Xbox wins.


third take the case when a texture needed _now_ is already loaded from disk in both cases but not in vid memory i.e. for use later 'pre-caching'

this will be something like a texture thats used rarely in a scene

3a) the load stage..

PS3  = read from disk (slower) into system memory (slow)
Xbox = read from disk (slower) into dual purpose memory (slow)

result: no difference between the two.

3b) the use it stage..

PS3 = read from system memory(fast) into vid memory (slow) read by GPU (faster)
XBOX = read from dual memory by GPU (fast)

result:  xbox wins. they removed the need for a write here.. this kicks ass!

[Thirteen]

there was already an article i posted a few months back saying how blu ray....the way it exists now is not going to be the same when the blu ray people and HD DVD people decide on a format... they are mixing the two formats in a way neither side has chosen yet and i don't think it would be feasible to think that a console that is a few months from going into mass production will be compatible with a format that hasn't even came out yet...

this makes Blu ray disk burner a almost useless added feature

[Jome]

Thanks for the info Seer.. 
However, I think a lot will depend on the old ATI vs. nVidia battle, personally I've been a ATI-fan for a long time, after a lot of problems with nVidia..
ATI says their new dual-GFX chip for PC's will be 2.5 faster than nVidia's fastest dual-chip setup, it's gonna be interesting to see how 360 vs. PS3 turns out, but I bet we'll have to wait a while for a game really pushing the consoles potential..

there was already an article i posted a few months back saying how blu ray....the way it exists now is not going to be the same when the blu ray people and HD DVD people decide on a format... they are mixing the two formats in a way neither side has chosen yet and i don't think it would be feasible to think that a console that is a few months from going into mass production will be compatible with a format that hasn't even came out yet...

this makes Blu ray disk burner a almost useless added feature

Well, the Matsushita (Panasonic) boss recently said that Toshiba must back down, and that BluRay will become the next big standard..
There's already BluRay players available, and the *potential* HD-DVD/BluRay combo players will most likely be compatible with existing players..
Obviously, it wouldn't be a wise choice to spend $2000 on a BluRay player at this time, but I bet they've decided the standards a good while before PS3 comes out, most likely there will be players/burners in stores by then as well, at better prices..

I remember hearing the same when DVD's came out.. "Oh, they will never have a chance against VCR, VCR is too big and powerful, DVD-players are way too expensive, they haven't decided on the +/-/RAM format yet" etc.. 

BluRay is backed by Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Hitachi, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp, Zenith, Hewlett Packard, Apple, EA Games/Arts, while HD-DVD is only backed by Toshiba, NEC, Sharp, Sanyo, and some other minor companies, I'd be very surprised if BluRay lose out to HD-DVD..

[Thirteen]

like i said....how can sony develop a console compatible with encryption that hasn't even been finalized yet.

According to the Nikkei Journal, Sony and Toshiba are finalizing plans to develop a unified disc format. The newspaper reported today that the two companies have agreed to combine Sony's 0.1mm protective layer and Toshiba's interface software. The reported agreement could be revealed as early as next week, says the paper

the Journal offered up some specifics on the alleged new format agreement. Chief among them is the supposed decision to adopt the Sony Blu-ray's 0.1mm protective layer.

Normal DVDs have a 0.6mm protective layer of plastic spread across their data-bearing surfaces, but Sony's Blu-ray disc format sacrifices durability in favor of more storage space. Use of this 0.1mm coating would require disc manufacturers to purchase new equipment, whereas Toshiba's 0.6mm coated HD-DVD discs can be laminated and polished with existing equipment.

The Nikkei Journal also alleges that Toshiba has agreed to create the software and copy-protection schemes to be used in the compromise disc format. If true, this means that Toshiba would author the code that tells disc drives how to read and write the data encoded on the discs.

[Trauma-san]

Just my .02, logical common sense (which I think I have a lot of). 

If you step back, there's a couple of interesting things.

First: Like Kane said, the whole thing is a big cluster fuck on the power issues.  They have yet to use the full potential of the X-box, only 2 or 3 games even game close (halo, etc).  They never used the full potential of the Gamecube either, and the PS2 was a total design flaw, they had too much of this and not enough of that, you ended up with the PS2 being more powerful in areas than the Gamecube but the Gamecube consistantly had better looking games becasue it was better designed with better-written software.  The X-box had better technology in effect on certain games than the Gamecube, but not by much.  Pushed, the Gamecube probably could have performed better than the best Xbox game, although Pushed the Xbox would have blown the Gamecube out of the water... my point is that neither system was pushed, although the Ps2 reached the limits of it's capabilities along time ago.  Poor design (although they of course did fine with it and sold all they wanted). 

So PS3 makes up for this by overcompensating, in an attempt to wow people.  Ultimately, all the power is not needed by either machine.  I know I'm a Nintendo fanboy but again I have to agree with their decision to only triple the power (think about how ludacrious that statement is, *only triple the power) of their system, and reach a price-conscious compromise with the consumer!  Again, the games and the software is where the 'fun' actually comes in, not the overdriven power level of the system (i.e. the original x-box). 

Also, no 'highest power' system has ever won any console war and you can take that to the bank.  Every generation, and there have been about 5 by now, the mid power system wins out (except for the handheld race, where the weakest system, the gameboy, has always won).

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About the blue disc shit.  Sony is using their console to try and PUSH that technology, and they'll probably succeed.  They're not trying to 'guess' future standards, they're trying to MAKE the future standard, by using ps2's dominance of the marketplace.  Ulimately, it may establish it as the next digital format, but I don't see that as too big of a hindrance to X-box, they could always drop 'blue disc' playback out of their list of features and just make it a usb add on to future systems, since no doubt Sony won't let them put a player in their system in the future. 

I"m still amazed and don't really believe that the market will hold these prices.  I think going over 300 on the consoles is suicidal.  Look at the history of the Neo Geo, that's the only console to ever do it, and they never had any success.  People are not going to pay 500 bucks for a system, and Sony cannot come below that price with their current hardware promises.  I have'nt heard price estimates on the 360 yet, if they can keep it at 300, they'll own the next generation (barring Nintendo doesn't pull something overwhelming out, which I don't believe they will).  Sony at 500 bucks is insane. 

[Thirteen]

nice try to try and downplay Toshiba's side but Toshiba is backed by two movie Giants, WB and Universal, and when it comes down to what the next form of media it will be, the movie makers pretty much have the final word over electronics and video game companies

oh and add microsoft to the list of HD DVD supporters

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By Kunihiko Kichise and Nathan Layne
Tue May 17,12:14 PM ET
 


TOKYO (Reuters) - The presidents of Japanese electronics giants Sony (6758.T), Toshiba (6502.T) and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. (6752.T) will meet to try to break a stalemate in talks over a unified format for next-generation DVD technology, a source close to the matter said on Tuesday.

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Sony and Toshiba, leading rival camps, have waged a three-year battle to have their new technology standards adopted by the industry.

The winner will have pole position in the multi-billion-dollar markets for DVD players, PC drives and optical discs.

The high-level talks offer new hope for negotiations that appeared to have reached an impasse.

A senior Toshiba official was quoted by the Nihon Keizai Shimbun on Monday as saying one format based on Sony technology would be "extremely difficult."

Both sides still believe one standard is the best scenario, knowing that a prolonged format battle like the one between VHS and Betamax two decades ago would likely discourage consumers from shifting to advanced discs and stifle the industry's growth.

"We continue to believe in the merits of establishing one format but discussions up until now have not been able to produce an agreement," said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "So the talks will be taken to a higher level."

The source said it had not been decided whether Toshiba would send its current president, Tadashi Okamura, or incoming president Atsutoshi Nishida.

Likewise, it is not clear whether Sony will be represented by Ryoji Chubachi, who is scheduled to become president in June, or current president Kunitake Ando.

Kunio Nakamura, president of Panasonic products maker Matsushita, will likely attend the talks, the source said.

"The exact timing and place of the meeting has not yet been decided. It will be held when a time that fits the schedules of all three company heads is found," the source said. "It could be as early as this week but we are now at the planning stage."

UNDER PRESSURE

Officials from Toshiba, which backs a new DVD technology called HD-DVD, and Sony and Matsushita, which support a rival standard known as Blu-ray, began meeting earlier this year to try and establish a format incorporating technology from both sides.

The negotiations have been leaning toward unifying the formats based on the Blu-ray disc structure.

But Toshiba continues to maintain that adopting the HD DVD structure would be more cost efficient because it is closer to the current DVD.

Toshiba has also been under pressure from parts makers and film studios in the HD DVD camp not to give in.

Just last week Toshiba announced that it had developed a triple-layer HD DVD disc with data capacity of 45 gigabytes, 50 percent more than a previously unveiled version and enough to hold 12 hours of high-definition movies.

Warner Home Video and Universal Studios Home Entertainment both issued statements endorsing Toshiba's new disc.

The announcements were seen as a move to help steer talks more in favor of the HD DVD side.

In addition to Sony and Matsushita, Blu-ray members also include computer giant Dell Inc. (Nasdaq:DELL - news), Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. (005930.KS) and Philips Electronics NV (PHG.AS).

HD DVD technology is also backed by NEC Corp. (6701.T), Sanyo Electric Co. Ltd. (6764.T) and several other firms.

In Blu-ray, a layer to hold data is put on the surface of a substrate and covered by thin protective layers. In HD-DVD discs, a memory layer is sandwiched between two substrates.

At the core of both formats are blue lasers, which have a shorter wavelength than the red lasers used in current DVD equipment, allowing discs to store data at the higher densities needed for high-definition movies and television.

The outcome of the meeting between the presidents of Sony, Toshiba and Matsushita could have a significant impact on future product launches.

A move toward unification could actually lead to a delay in the introduction of next-generation devices.

Toshiba has already unveiled plans to launch HD DVD players in the last quarter of 2005 while Sony announced plans this week to introduce its new PlayStation video game console in the spring of 2006 equipped with a Blu-ray disc drive.

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 Warner Bros. Studios and Microsoft Collaborate to Release HD DVD Titles Using Windows Media Video 9 (VC-1)

HD DVD titles will be available in the fourth quarter of 2005

LAS VEGAS -- April 17, 2005 -- Today at the National Association of Broadcasters convention, NAB2005, Warner Bros. Studios and Microsoft Corp. announced their plans to collaborate on the release of a broad range of next-generation HD DVD discs using Windows Media® Video 9, Microsoft's implementation of VC-1, the proposed Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) standard approved by the DVD Forum for HD DVD. Warner Home Video currently plans to release titles in the fourth quarter of 2005. HD DVD represents the first major push to deliver high-definition content to consumers on optical media in the U.S.

The collaboration signifies Warner Bros.' continued commitment to providing new digital entertainment experiences for consumers using the best digital media solutions available. Microsoft will collaborate with Warner Bros. to ensure that the video quality of HD DVD titles is unmatched, enabling true home theater experiences.

"Warner Bros. has evaluated the video quality of VC-1 and found it to be outstanding, making it an ideal format for the delivery of high-definition content," said Chris Cookson, chief technology officer at Warner Bros. Entertainment, Inc. "By releasing a wide range of titles in VC-1, we are creating great new opportunities to bring high-definition video to consumers."

"Warner Bros.' plan to use VC-1 for the release of HD DVDs presents consumers with exciting new options for watching high-definition content," said Blair Westlake, corporate vice president of the Media/Entertainment & Technology Convergence Group at Microsoft. "As a technology provider, Microsoft is encouraged by the industry's efforts to deliver next-generation high-definition video experiences for consumers, and we see the Warner Bros. collaboration as a significant milestone."

Warner Bros. has one of the largest libraries of any motion picture studio with over 6,500 feature films, 40,000 TV episodes and 14,000 animated titles (including more than 1,500 classic animated shorts). The library includes such world-renowned franchises as "Superman," "Batman," "Friends," "E.R." and "The West Wing," as well as such contemporary theatrical hits as "Ocean's Eleven," "Mystic River" and "The Last Samurai." The studio is expected to announce the release of an increasing amount of its content on HD DVD as its involvement with the format continues.

About Warner Bros.

Warner Bros. Studios, a fully integrated, broad-based entertainment company, is the global leader in the creation, production, distribution, licensing and marketing of all forms of entertainment and their related businesses. Warner Bros. Studios, a Time Warner Company, stands at the forefront of every aspect of the entertainment industry, from feature films to television, home video/DVD, animation, comic books, interactive entertainment and games, product and brand licensing, international cinemas and broadcasting.

About Microsoft

Founded in 1975, Microsoft (Nasdaq "MSFT") is the worldwide leader in software, services and solutions that help people and businesses realize their full potential.

Note to editors: If you are interested in viewing additional information on Microsoft, please visit the Microsoft® Web page at http://www.microsoft.com/presspass on Microsoft's corporate information pages. Web links, telephone numbers and titles were correct at time of publication, but may since have changed. For additional assistance, journalists and analysts may contact Microsoft's Rapid Response Team or other appropriate contacts listed at http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/contactpr.asp .

[Don Seer]

Also, no 'highest power' system has ever won any console war and you can take that to the bank.  Every generation, and there have been about 5 by now, the mid power system wins out (except for the handheld race, where the weakest system, the gameboy, has always won).

its true.. i did think aboutr consoles like 3d0, jaguar and dreamcast.. all powerful failures.

[Thirteen]

Also, no 'highest power' system has ever won any console war and you can take that to the bank.  Every generation, and there have been about 5 by now, the mid power system wins out (except for the handheld race, where the weakest system, the gameboy, has always won).

its true.. i did think aboutr consoles like 3d0, jaguar and dreamcast.. all powerful failures.

dreamcast was a weak 128...it just launched the first...it's main competition wasn't the 64 or ps1

[Jome]

oh and add microsoft to the list of HD DVD supporters

NO, Microsoft supports BOTH, to be on the safe side..
Toshiba's biggest supporters are WB and Universal, but don't forget Sony's position in the movie apartment.
And EA Games is looking to become the next Microsoft in game terms, their support means a lot.

The BluRay standard is set in stone, but the HD/BluRay combo might be a reality, but best believe they will add backwards compability.

[shamihundal]

the only reason to get X-Box is Halo. Playstation is and always has been the overall best in my mind.

[Thirteen]

oh and add microsoft to the list of HD DVD supporters

NO, Microsoft supports BOTH, to be on the safe side..
Toshiba's biggest supporters are WB and Universal, but don't forget Sony's position in the movie apartment.
And EA Games is looking to become the next Microsoft in game terms, their support means a lot.

The BluRay standard is set in stone, but the HD/BluRay combo might be a reality, but best believe they will add backwards compability.

microsoft doesn't support both. blu ray uses microsoft encoding technology. there was a report that specified that Longhorn will be compatible with Toshiba and NEC's HD DVD it didn't say anything about Blu Ray even though Blu ray has been out or month in japan

Universal and WB are the two largest movie production companies in hollywood, Micrsoft is the biggest software company...these companies don't want Toshiba to back down to Sony

HD DVD has been improved to fit 50 Gb on a single disc, they are more durable than blu ray, and the industry will have a easier time making HD DVD's than Blu Rays....
 
so far HD DVD has the advantage


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Microsoft's Japanese Division reported that its upcoming operating system, code-named Longhorn, will support HD DVD format. HD DVD is an enhanced version of the standard DVD technology.

According to online reports, Microsoft is pushing the next-generation blue-laser DVD technology like NEC and Toshiba. Blue-light technology can read and write data much faster densities, which is needed for high-definition content.

Microsoft said it does not know if it will support Blu-Ray technology from Sony and Philips in Longhorn.

Toshiba's Senior Vice President Yoshihide Fujii plans to release the first HD DVD compatible players in 2005 while Panasonic is expected to release their Blu-Ray based products as early as this week.

Few Japanese companies said they will have HD DVD content based DVDs by next year to support the players.

[Thirteen]

the only reason to get X-Box is Halo. Playstation is and always has been the overall best in my mind.

so what must have games does only Play station get that Xbox doesn't?

can't say GTA...

the only ones i can think of are god of war

Ninja Gaiden, Halo, Halo 2, Morrowind, KOTOR 1 and 2, Jade Empire > any PS only game

[Shallow]

Also, no 'highest power' system has ever won any console war and you can take that to the bank.  Every generation, and there have been about 5 by now, the mid power system wins out (except for the handheld race, where the weakest system, the gameboy, has always won).

its true.. i did think aboutr consoles like 3d0, jaguar and dreamcast.. all powerful failures.

SNES was more powerful than the Genesis and it won that war. It was close for a while but Super won in the end because the Genesis couldn't handle games like the Super could.


Anyway, why is there even a discussion about what the better system will be. The last time round PS2 had worse graphics than X BOX and even Game Cube in some regards but it blew them both the fuck out of the water. Add the XBox and GC sales together and PS2 still nearly triples them. Sony has so many exclusive rights to so many big franchises. It has the games. It always has. Now it has the edge in the power too. I watch the videos for Kill Zone and it completely destroys anything I saw from X Box or Revolution at E3. My prediction; Sony will easily win the next round and maybe easily win the won after, by that time Nintendo will bow out will Microsoft gets closer and closer each time. XBox may beat out Sony in the distant future but not anytime soon, and Nintendo only has so many strikes left.

I haven't bought a system since the DC but I may buy the PS3 after watching the E3 presentation. To pay for it I may just do what my cousin did for PS2; pre-order 2 then sell one on Ebay for more than double the price after the first shipments sell out. This only works if the first shipments are low, which they usually are. My cousin sold his ps2 for over a grand, tripling what he paid for the first PS2. So he basically got a free PS2 and 700 bucks to spare.

[Jome]

microsoft doesn't support both.

HD DVD has been improved to fit 50 Gb on a single disc, they are more durable than blu ray, and the industry will have a easier time making HD DVD's than Blu Rays....

Microsoft said it does not know if it will support Blu-Ray technology from Sony and Philips in Longhorn.

Must be an old or uninformed article, Microsoft support both, Longhorn will be compatible with BluRay.

TDK announced that they have made a 100GB BluRay disc recently.. ante up. 

so what must have games does only Play station get that Xbox doesn't?

can't say GTA...

the only ones i can think of are god of war

Ninja Gaiden, Halo, Halo 2, Morrowind, KOTOR 1 and 2, Jade Empire > any PS only game

Gran Turismo, uhh ??
If Sony can get a similar deal with Rockstar to the one they had, GTA will bring a big audience..

[hisairness]

Stupid Question:

What is the big difference in the Blu-Ray and the HD-DVD?