36 chambers VS ILLMATIC

[Don Jacob]

*sigh*  

This discussion is over.

this is what i'm talking about, i get dissed for my facts, and get called ignorant, but when i proove my case, this all these people can say

[Don Jacob]

pete rock   is a    genius .       period.  

download     "Today"   by   Tom  Scott        and  you'll see why.

crate diggin    and   dissectin  a   sample     takes   a  whole lotta skill.      its just somethin   your  born with the  ability  to do ............   otherwise   WE   WOULD  ALL    be  in the studio makin beats.    

THANK YOU , you just proooved my point for me, that's DJ'ing, and that's what a skilled DJ does......producers do somethig TOTALLY different

[Trauma-san]

Well, my .02 cents is this:

Jake's partially right about some of those guys being overrated... they're all good, much better than me or him, but sometimes people act like they're the messiah or something just because they can throw some dope drums and samples together.  OUtta his list, I'd say Battlecat is the most overrated, everything he does (recently) has a similar sound, clap drums etc.  But him and dre adn rza etc. get credited with stuff they don't do.  I'm producin some stuff right now, with Nate, over the net playing bass.  It's dope as hell, and I know everybody's gonna be like "wow" dope beat, Trauma, but in reality, without Nate making such a funky bassline, it wouldn't be any good.  So that's why dre/etc. are overrated, their musicians come tight, they just put it together. (which itself takes mad talent)

Dre and Premier, as far as hiphop goes, are in a class by themselves.  Rza is a different species to me, he may not be the most talented in the world, but he's got an ear like dre's, he knows what sounds good.  And homie earlier made a great point about how simple the chronic is.  All it is is layers of loops in and out, in and out.  But it sounds great, so whoever's responsible (dre) gets major props, which he deserves.  Rza does crazy, crazy stuff, he's great at making strange samples work, although I'm not feeling his recent stuff as much.  "Shame on a nigga" was probably my favorite Rza track.  Crazy sample.  

[Maestro Minded]

Well, my .02 cents is this:

Dre and Premier, as far as hiphop goes, are in a class by themselves.  Rza is a different species to me, he may not be the most talented in the world, but he's got an ear like dre's, he knows what sounds good.  And homie earlier made a great point about how simple the chronic is.  All it is is layers of loops in and out, in and out.  But it sounds great, so whoever's responsible (dre) gets major props, which he deserves.  Rza does crazy, crazy stuff, he's great at making strange samples work, although I'm not feeling his recent stuff as much.  "Shame on a nigga" was probably my favorite Rza track.  Crazy sample.  

THANK U !!!

bythe way trauma, i would like to sample that bass u used in that "infinite - rain" demo ..( then u totaly changed the bassline in the final track) .. may i use it?

[KVB]

this is what i'm talking about, i get dissed for my facts, and get called ignorant, but when i proove my case, this all these people can say

That's completely wrong... you haven't proved JACK SHIT, you fail to realize that (DJ) Premier is a superior producers, one of the best in the rap game right now... probably because you hate him... that's why further discussion is pointless... if you want, I could list some Premier produced tracks for you and the other members to check out... or I could compare him to Dr. Dre.

~1~

[Don Seer]

pete rock   is a    genius .       period.  

download     "Today"   by   Tom  Scott        and  you'll see why.

crate diggin    and   dissectin  a   sample     takes   a  whole lotta skill.      its just somethin   your  born with the  ability  to do ............   otherwise   WE   WOULD  ALL    be  in the studio makin beats.    

THANK YOU , you just proooved my point for me, that's DJ'ing, and that's what a skilled DJ does......producers do somethig TOTALLY different

no that didn't prove the point.

Riddle me this....

What Does Pete Rock Use For The Construction & Dissection Of Beats?

a DJ Turntable.. some Technics 1200s or 1210s?

No

He uses an  E-MU  SP 1200. Is that DJ Equipment?

You can see one inside the 2001 booklet in the shot where dre is with mel-man, its the back one with four buttons up the side on the rack - an MPC is sat more prominently.

Do you dissect a beat on a turntable for use in a song? no u sample it and dissect inside a sampling drum machine. which is PRODUCTION EQUIPMENT.

[Don Jacob]

RAP production equipment that pioneering DJ's used/use



i never said it was a crime to sample i'm just saying there's a difference between using a few scattered samples here and there which basically every producer does literally, and basing your whole career and production formula around that....which differents you from being a producer and a dj

[KVB]

RAP production equipment that pioneering DJ's used/use



i never said it was a crime to sample i'm just saying there's a difference between using a few scattered samples here and there which basically every producer does literally, and basing your whole career and production formula around that....which differents you from being a producer and a dj

Look here BigJakeDoggyDogg... this is what your face will shortly look like if you say that (DJ) Premier is overrated one more time... and... you don't know shit about his work process... he is indeed a producer.

SICK PIC REMOVED (OVERSEER)

[Don Jacob]

wow and people say i ride dr. dre too much, and i get over hyped when they talk about dre negatively...


i've done this more than once and i'll do it again ::sighs::


this is the basic blue print of dj premier


first the drum beat. as anyone who knows how to structure a song, the drum is usually your first layer. seeing how it sets the tempo for the entire song , and anything off tha tempo shouldn't be mixed in. anyways dj premier either A) digs in his vast collection of vynals and finds a 3-5 secnd peice of drumming.....lets knab lars ulrich's 'sad but true' for this  dj premier beat ok, premo then processes that through a sampler and knabs that shit up and loops it. seems simple, looks simple, IS simple...i've done it plenty of times in class. then theres usually a 2nd and more 'cliche' way of making a drum beat ....oh yes the infamous overused typical rap drum beat used soooooooo many times in rap that i've practically heard every rap producer use in their more uninspired times. for example the very CLICHE  basshead basshead , snare. but i'll give premo the benifit of the doubt here and we're using the metallica line


ok second anyone whose studied music knows that drum and bass are very connected (that's why u almost always see bassists in concerts face or stand very near to the drummer, becuase they feed off one another) the drum and bass combo usually works best when the bass hits a note or two and in between pauses in the bass notes the drum crashes or clicks (which is displayed pretty well in the korn song blind) I know premo is a smart man and it's going to be prettyhard /impossible to succesfully blend another bass line with that drum line we picked out...so premo has no choice really  but to use the same bass. so let's run that through and loop the same timings together, and layer it with the drum line


dj premier never really gets more than 5 layers deep (including  rap vocals) so we're almost done

now it's time to add dj premier's excellent scratching abilities (which are not overrated and you can't take away from) hmmm what work nice with this 'hardcore' beat we got going that premo could bust out the techniques and scratch in some vocal samples with....how about using some lines from inspectah deck and kurupt where kurupt says " hardcore" then deck is scratched in saying" like porno flick pictures"...Premo scratches that in with his tech's and layers that into his beat



theres still something missing something little like chimes or somthing like bells.... AH HAH! BELLS primo can use the bell at the begining of 'hells bells' from ac/da. dope, just run that trough and precisly layer it for the bell to 'gong' or whatever on the snare hit of the drum every other melody bar or so  


ladies and gentleman ....we have a beat all we got to do now is sell it to nas or somebody

as a matter of fact this beat DOES sound intriging and very tight....but did we produce anything here? no not really, we just took some shit we liked and mixed it together and did what most dj's do in clubs in battles or at party's ....take something already out there and mix it with something else...that's why  he's called DJ premier, lol, we didn't creat any new sound scapes we just mixed exisisting sound scapes together. this is the equivalent of mixing an apple and an orange together in the blender . sure it tastes good but that didn't produce a new fruit did it? no

i'm not specifically nailing dj premier becuase theres alot of rap 'producers' that do this. dr. dre even did it on SOC. i'm also not saying this sux or this takes no skill but i'm saying ,compared to what quincy jones or George Clinton did with their OWN melodies that they made  from their own head THAT was real production, and what we just did isn't , we were just acting as mixers/dj's.





oh yeah just to piss off KVB , cuz i'm sure he's not going to read my post all the way through to see what i said, just skim
through and take what i say out of context......i'm going to say this... DJ PREMIER IS AN OVERRATED PRODUCER

[KVB]

wow and people say i ride dr. dre too much, and i get over hyped when they talk about dre negatively...


i've done this more than once and i'll do it again ::sighs::


this is the basic blue print of dj premier


first the drum beat. as anyone who knows how to structure a song, the drum is usually your first layer. seeing how it sets the tempo for the entire song , and anything off tha tempo shouldn't be mixed in. anyways dj premier either A) digs in his vast collection of vynals and finds a 3-5 secnd peice of drumming.....lets knab lars ulrich's 'sad but true' for this  dj premier beat ok, premo then processes that through a sampler and knabs that shit up and loops it. seems simple, looks simple, IS simple...i've done it plenty of times in class. then theres usually a 2nd and more 'cliche' way of making a drum beat ....oh yes the infamous overused typical rap drum beat used soooooooo many times in rap that i've practically heard every rap producer use in their more uninspired times. for example the very CLICHE  basshead basshead , snare. but i'll give premo the benifit of the doubt here and we're using the metallica line


ok second anyone whose studied music knows that drum and bass are very connected (that's why u almost always see bassists in concerts face or stand very near to the drummer, becuase they feed off one another) the drum and bass combo usually works best when the bass hits a note or two and in between pauses in the bass notes the drum crashes or clicks (which is displayed pretty well in the korn song blind) I know premo is a smart man and it's going to be prettyhard /impossible to succesfully blend another bass line with that drum line we picked out...so premo has no choice really  but to use the same bass. so let's run that through and loop the same timings together, and layer it with the drum line


dj premier never really gets more than 5 layers deep (including  rap vocals) so we're almost done

now it's time to add dj premier's excellent scratching abilities (which are not overrated and you can't take away from) hmmm what work nice with this 'hardcore' beat we got going that premo could bust out the techniques and scratch in some vocal samples with....how about using some lines from inspectah deck and kurupt where kurupt says " hardcore" then deck is scratched in saying" like porno flick pictures"...Premo scratches that in with his tech's and layers that into his beat



theres still something missing something little like chimes or somthing like bells.... AH HAH! BELLS primo can use the bell at the begining of 'hells bells' from ac/da. dope, just run that trough and precisly layer it for the bell to 'gong' or whatever on the snare hit of the drum every other melody bar or so  


ladies and gentleman ....we have a beat all we got to do now is sell it to nas or somebody

as a matter of fact this beat DOES sound intriging and very tight....but did we produce anything here? no not really, we just took some shit we liked and mixed it together and did what most dj's do in clubs in battles or at party's ....take something already out there and mix it with something else...that's why  he's called DJ premier, lol, we didn't creat any new sound scapes we just mixed exisisting sound scapes together. this is the equivalent of mixing an apple and an orange together in the blender . sure it tastes good but that didn't produce a new fruit did it? no

i'm not specifically nailing dj premier becuase theres alot of rap 'producers' that do this. dr. dre even did it on SOC. i'm also not saying this sux or this takes no skill but i'm saying ,compared to what quincy jones or George Clinton did with their OWN melodies that they made  from their own head THAT was real production, and what we just did isn't , we were just acting as mixers/dj's.





oh yeah just to piss off KVB , cuz i'm sure he's not going to read my post all the way through to see what i said, just skim
through and take what i say out of context......i'm going to say this... DJ PREMIER IS AN OVERRATED PRODUCER

I actually read the whole post... hahahaha lmao @ you wasting your time writing all this... as I said, it doesn't matter HOW a producer makes a beat. What matters is the beat quantity, if producers are able to make every single one of thier beats dope and addictive. Very few producers can do this. This is what separates DJ Premier & Dr. Dre from The Neptunes, Swizz Beatz and other producers, num sayin ?

Considering this, would you still call (DJ) Premier overrated ?  

Oh yeah.. you don't know JACK SHIT about Premier's work process... so don't speak on it

[Don Seer]

first the drum beat. as anyone who knows how to structure a song, the drum is usually your first layer. seeing how it sets the tempo for the entire song , and anything off tha tempo shouldn't be mixed in. anyways dj premier either A) digs in his vast collection of vynals and finds a 3-5 secnd peice of drumming.....lets knab lars ulrich's 'sad but true' for this  dj premier beat

as a matter of fact this beat DOES sound intriging and very tight....but did we produce anything here? no not really, we just took some shit we liked and mixed it together and did what most dj's do in clubs in battles or at party's ....take something already out there and mix it with something else...that's why  he's called DJ premier, lol, we didn't creat any new sound scapes we just mixed exisisting sound scapes together. this is the equivalent of mixing an apple and an orange together in the blender . sure it tastes good but that didn't produce a new fruit did it? no

this shows your lack of understanding in what 'hiphop' producers go through to create beats. you have simplified it so much is does seem farcical... and vynals isn't even a word.. its called vinyl, the plural is records.

I think the problem is that you need a lesson in how production works from a hiphop perspective, since you are approaching things like an 'outsider' and making too many assumptions.

1) 'hiphop' producers do not follow the standard procedures for creating  tracks. BUT.. just as much effort goes in.

2) the best producers have a DJing background (DJ Premier, DJ Shadow, DJ Quik, DJ Pooh, and of course the diggity diggity doc... and even Daz who was DJ Jedi) some drop the name when they get big, some don't. Its my belief (speculative) that DJing gives them a better ear when layering, blending and mixing samples.

3) The 'choosing' a sample process is complicated. Yes they often don't play instruments themselves. but.. they wouldn't ever sample something 'popular' (apart from Puffy who so obviously did do this to get 'mass appeal' (gangstarr quote 'Cause suckers be like playin themselves to have mass appeal').   Hiphop producers will 'dig in crates' to find a sample that no one else has used.. it could be a 50 year old record of a band no ones ever heard of, most likely because they were wack - BUT - there may be a moment of genius/synchronicity on that record that sounds dope when used in another context. Taking this minute 'moment of truth' (gang starr again) and turning it into something completely different isn't as simple as stuffing it in a sampler and looping it. For example as I have often said before.. that although Dre was not the first to use the 'David McCallum - The Edge' sample in the Next Episode..(so Rockwilder used it first and in the eyes of hiphop purists  he's the best simply because he got it out first) however....... David Axelrod the legendary producer who produced that track called Dre's a 'visionary' and 'genius' in the way he used the sample. he flipped it and made something amazing out of it.. far superior to the fluffly lounge music of the original.

HipHop producers treat the sample as an instrument.. whether it be a snippet of someone they recorded playing a bassline, or something they got from an old record.. at the end of the day its just a chunk of music.

[Don Jacob]

dude you just said what i was already saying, yes it does take an ear to do that shit, but my whole point is , that is not production, IT"S MIXING/DJ'ing


it's like taking an exotic fruit no one has eaten before or has eatin in 50 years (like your beat explaination) and mixing it in with an orange to  make a tasty treat. you didn't create or produce a new fruit...you made a mixture. But if you were a scientist or chemist that could play god and come up with a whole new fruit that grew like a bannana that tasted like an apple or trifruit that grew like a coacoanut but onc cracked had one side being a big cherry the middle a giant strawberry ad the other end being an orange or (weak example ) like seedless grapes. you would have created (produced) a new fruit


see where i'm coming from? theres a BIG BIG difference


and the hip hop way of looking at it, IS the dj/mixer way i've been talking about, hip hop sprouted from an mc rapping over a dj spinning record samples


and the reason why i think Dre was praised so much for his next episode sample is because he did a half half with it. Sampled the main beat but added his own stuff to it aswell....i'll post more in a hour.

[Don Jacob]

about the next episode


i don't even consider that to be the best of dre's works behind the boards, but probably why he was so praised by the original composer was because dre didn't (or at least i'm pretty sure) use a direct sample. the originals tabs are this :


-|-----------------------------
-|-----------------------------
-|-----------------------------
-|--0-7-7-5-7-5-3-5-3-3-0-3-0

on a stand up bass (fretless)


and dre re-tabed it and kept the same main melody but flipped the notes


-|---6-6-4-6-----------------
-|-4----------9-7-9-9-7-4-7-
-|---------------------------
-|---------------------------
-|---------------------------
-|---------------------------

but instead of open strums, ^^^dre's is palm muted and plucked and done on guitar (accoustic i believe) plus i'm pretty sure the drums and sound effects and other insrumentation are all original , or i'm sure dude wouldn't have said all that stuff about dre's version





but do you guys see what i'm talking about : just about all the layers from a DJ'd beat came from else where and are all sampled.  but a producer actually comes original even if there is a sample , and again the next episode isn't even the best dre beat, imo it's 'aright'...i like it don't get me wrong but i think he coulda done more

[infinite59]

i'm not saying this to dis you but


excuse me HOW many fucking music appreciation classes have you taken?? how many fucking production classes have you taken?? when the fuck did you get a scolorship to study musicology, how many hours have you spent disecting and studying the works of Bach, Betoveen, Mostsart, and all the great composers with professionals with degrees in this field........i got 50 bucks that says you've done sqaut in this area

rza is overrated , the whole one bar looop thing you just admitted to is all the proof i need that he's overrated and simplistic

comercial beats that i like?? man my tastes in music far expand deeper than you and probably everyon on this board so kill that noise. i'm sorry i've grown out of being pleased by  bass bass snare drum lines and 2 note loops from a piano/keyboard....my bad, i'm sorry but there's no genius in overused loops, i even get pissed when dre does it and that's why i can't stand punk rock



man i coud go on for days so  please don't try to question my knowledge of music just because you make a couple of cheap beats on fruity loops  

Yo... I'm in music appreciation, Beathoven, Back, those cats ain't shit, they made music for the King, it's like today if some "geniuses" made music for president Bush, to please him and the wealthy class of freemasons, it would be wack, the real music is in the streets, from the streets, for the streets, that's where the true genius comes from, neccessity, like hip-hop, they created their own art form out of neccessity.  Robert Moses had Brooklyn all fucked up because of the Cross Bronx expressway.  Hip-hop saved Brooklyn.

[min0rity]

Yo... I'm in music appreciation, Beathoven, Back, those cats ain't shit, they made music for the King, it's like today if some "geniuses" made music for president Bush, to please him and the wealthy class of freemasons, it would be wack, the real music is in the streets, from the streets, for the streets, that's where the true genius comes from, neccessity, like hip-hop, they created their own art form out of neccessity.  Robert Moses had Brooklyn all fucked up because of the Cross Bronx expressway.  Hip-hop saved Brooklyn.

FUCKING THANK YOU!! i've been trying to say that music appreciation don't teach you jack shit about production....it teaches you all those bullshit past overrated composers who is NOTHING in todays music standards...i hate 'fake" motherfuckers who claim they listen to classical music when they're just saying that because they're considered legends in a ignorant music audience......

a real fact: bigfakedoggydogg is ignorance when comes to music AND production