Lakers on an uprise...just missing a few pieces to the puzzle.

[TeeRaySix9Teen]

Youre a strait basketball retard when it comes to this subject so your opinion just doesnt matter.

And yours does?..stop drinking that heterrade bitch...

you're the one who's the retard..really think about what you're saying...How the fuck you going to talk shit about a 3 time champion? you.....are....a...moron

 

[TeeRaySix9Teen]

if 30 other GM's had to start with a franchise player i dont think all of em would pick kobe i can see some of em going with james or kg

kg...duncan...james....etc....etc....

[Stone Cold is Bout It, Bout It]

Youre a strait basketball retard when it comes to this subject so your opinion just doesnt matter.

And yours does?..stop drinking that heterrade bitch...

you're the one who's the retard..really think about what you're saying...How the fuck you going to talk shit about a 3 time champion? you.....are....a...moron

 

 

[acbaylove]

for the first half of your post....you might be right, no Kobe...no rings. But at the same time, no Shaq...no playoffs.

That's an horrible statement, from every point of view. First of all Jerry West traded everybody included their mama to sign Shaq. So he gave Shaq the keys of the team, and he did it for good. But, just to make you an example, the 1997-98 team had 3 players who went in the All Star Game other than Shaq: Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and Kobe. It was the only team in the league with no 30+ years old players in the roster. It was a great team, who just had to develop into the 3peat one. I wouldnt go as far as saying no Shaq no playoffs: matter of fact the 1995-96 team, the one before Shaq, had a 53-wins record and the 2nd place in the Pacific Division spot. So no Shaq = 52 wins.

for the second half, this is where the problem comes into play when i argue with all these Laker fans. Somewhere along the line they seem to have gotten the idea that stats make u great. they dont. leading your team makes u great. if stats are how we judge greatness...then Magic is only the second greatest passer ever. Id put him at first, but the stats say Stockton. stats are great for basketball cards and ESPN "Did you knows" but they dont show who is really great or who is a real leader for their team. What im saying about Kobe is that he couldnt have made Cleveland a legitimate team like Lebron did this fast in his career.

A legitimate team? You mean LeBron made Cleveland a legitimate team by didnt reaching the Play Offs in the Eastern Conference for 2 straight years? Didn't know the real definition of "legitimate team" and the real meaning of "being the leader of a team". Now i do. Thank you LeBron!

Kobe during his first couple years showed talent, but definetely....DEFINETELY not the ability to lead.

He didnt have to. He was a rookie in a contender team runned by Shaq. He was the SG of the Lakers. Don't even compare it with the hopeless Cavs who signed LeBron to save them from being considered a total failure.

And last year, after how many years in the league...things were the same. He didnt lead. He got his stats...and thats it. Thats not greatness. Lebron honestly IMO did a better job LEADING his team last year then Kobe did his. And Lebron still has some work to do on his leadership skills. So where does that leave Kobe? This whole argument was about who u would take to start your franchise from this point on. I said id take Lebron cus his upside is FAR higher then Kobe's....from THIS point on. Lebron still has a ton of room to improve and he was an MVP candidate last year. Its rare that many players improve during the second half of their career and typically its big men if anything. So other then being a Kobe fan, how do people not see that he falls into the same category. Yeah, he COULD improve. Im not saying its impossible. Im saying i dont think his improvement (if any) would be so drastic that theyll win another championship without some SERIOUS help. Like it or not, he won those rings WITH Shaq. Shaq has gone to the finals with the Lakers and the Magic and Miami was in good position to last year. Kobe still has to prove he can even make the playoffs without Shaq.

Matter of fact LeBron too.

To think that Kobe, on the perimeter was somehow helping Shaq on the inside more then the other way around only shows a lack of basketball knowledge. Any coach in this league would take a dominant big man in the middle over a dominant perimeter player. Theres so many more matchup problems a dominant big man can create as well as setting up all his perimeter players. Kobe's game, like it or not, was drastically helped by Shaqs presence. Anyways, fuckit this is getting boring lol Me, Scittles and Jake have gone back and forth since the beginning of time on this and nothing ever changes. Ive always admitted that i like Kobe's game. But the Kobe fans cant seem to get it outta their heads that he isnt perfect, and he definetely isnt Jordan lol. He's good, but his little spoiled brat "give me all the spotlight" attitude will always give him this kind of negative attention.

What about the new commercial of Nike about Kobe? That attitude is never described by the media, uh?

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

But i would say this, if i were to to START a team right at this moment...id take Lebron over Kobe.

30 GM's and I disagree with you...

at least one half of your statement is correct 

honestly tho, Kobe's best years have past him already. he's not the intelligent player that Jordan was. I dont see Kobe being able to evolve his game in the late years of his career when his athletisism disappears. Im not saying its gone now, but obviously Lebron's game is still in its early stages where he's going to improve. Kobe has already reached his potential. Its all down hill from here buddy 

Half of my statement? It's a fact...They had a poll in the beginning of last season. They asked all the GMs which player in the NBA they'd choose to build their team around. All 30 picked Kobeas. You're stupid for saying Kobe is going downhill from here...Jordan was just beginning at Kobe's age. Kobe is still young, there is no way he's reached his full potential...Unless he gets seriously injured or something like that, but Kobe is the type of player who works every off-season to better himself...He will amaze...PeACe

If you been payin attention to every other post ive ever made on this subject youd know, i dont consider Jordan and Kobe anywhere NEAR in the same league. And most others dont either. As a matter of fact, no one does except Kobe fans. So yeah, i think his career has already reached its pinnacle. He NEEDS others to make him great. I dont know why u guys cant see that when everyone else does. He NEEDS it. He's just not that guy. He's not the guy that makes everyone else successful. As for Lebron, i dunno if u saw Magic when he was just on Jey Leno?

when asked about the NBA age limit being at 19....he responded saying he wished it was 20. He said that all coaches feel the same. That their jobs are harder because they are stuck in the situation of having to teach kids the game of basketball. How players arent ready at the age of 18...or even 17 sometimes to play on an NBA team. He used the examples of Garnett and Kobe. Saying that they are both great players, and were good coming in. But that even they werent ready. It took them a couple years to realy develop their game to that of an NBA player. Then, in the middle of that comment he said..."except Lebron....he's special...".  Maybe Magics opinion doesnt mean shit....but lets just say...its the same as mine. Go ahead NIK....disagree with the allmighty Magic Johnson lol

No kidding, dumbass. It's obvious that LeBron developed at an earlier age than Kobe, that's all Magic was saying...How many fucking times have we heard Magic saying Kobe is the best player in the league by far, and praising Kobe as one of the greatests...So if you wanna bring Magic into this, you've just killed your whole argument by yourself...LeBron is just special as in he got to an all-star level right off the bat (being pushed on an extremely whack team, of course), but Kobe hss still accomplished so much more and is on a whole other level...Anyone who knows anything will tell you the same.

Magic is a Laker...i think you know that. Magic will support his player first. So its a much bigger deal for Magic to put someone on a higher platform once, then it would be for him to put Kobe on it 100 times. If Kobe was traded tomorrow for Lebron, Magic would turn around and say Lebron is the best player in the league. Its common sense. Lebron got "pushed" to an all star level how? You cant deny how good he is. Kobe was on just as wack a team, so it shoulda been easy for him to shine also. Lebron gets a lot of attention because in a league that seems to embrace the selfish, flashy, ballhog players....Lebron shined while being unselfish. Kobe could learn from him....


like i said, im not even a Lebron fan...also, as far as what Kobe has accomplished....not that much without Shaq.

What has Jordan accomplish without Pippen and Phil? LOL...You're a joke, you make no sense. You bring what Magic says into this, and then when I use that to prove you wrong, you try flipping everything. LeBron is still tryna' learn off players like Kobe, so what's even going through your mind when you're saying shit like "Kobe could learn from him"...LeBron came into the league HOPING to be the next Kobe. He was drafted by a team where he was the main source of offense and basically was the head of everything on the team. Yes, he was athletic enough to shine like a star, but he couldn't take his team anywhere not 1, but 2 seasons in a row. If Kareem Rush was drafted by the Cavs with the first pick, got all the media attention in the NBA, and pushed the same way LeBron was pushed, he'd be looking like a superstar too. It's all about the position you're placed in. Kobe came in the league backing up the star shooting guard of the team (Eddie Jones). Kareem Rush came in the league backing up the star shooting guard as well (Kobe)...It's all about where you are placed and how you handle it. LeBron is an excellent player, but he's no where NEAR Kobe's level. If you honestly believe that, go ahead...Kobe has proven greatness, it doesn't take a genius to see that...PeACe

how did you prove me wrong on the Magic issue? I gave you a QUOTE strait from him. And you argued it. Plain and simple. You cant prove me wrong on it, without saying that Magic was lying through his teeth.

As far as Kobe learning from him...cmon man, i know youre young...but youre not THAT young lol. EVERYone, i mean EVERYone can learn from somebody. Rookie....Veteran....it doesnt matter. There are veterans who might learn from Kobe even from time to time. I didnt say Kobe should pattern his whole entire game after Lebron. Im saying he could learn from Lebrons unselfishness. Obviously, neither of us are in their locker rooms. But i guarentee you (and if you actually played ball like u said u did, then you agree) that Lebrons teammates are happier playing with a player like him...then Kobe's would, playing with a player like him. Role players like playing with a star, who can carry them, but will allow others to shine also. As far as comparing the two at the beginning of their career....once again, the Magic quote. I only use it because i agree with it. Argue with me.....argue with Magic the Laker God. lol. If you think im wrong, then go ahead and say it NIK....Magic is a fuckin idiot. 

LOL. I shot down every one of your arguments one by one, and this is all you have? I'm not arguing with Magic, I agree with him. LeBron is special as in he developed the quickest straight out of high school...He STILL is nowhere near Kobe. You think LeBron would like to be playing on the same team as Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant, or Tracy McGrady right now? Hell no. What's your point, no superstar guard would like to play on the same team as another superstar who plays the same position. That doesn't equal winning, that equals heads clashing. LeBron has had everything to himself in Cleveland, he hasn't been put to the test yet. Remember that clean cut image Kobe had back in 2001? Everyone loved him, pretty much like everyone loves LeBron now...See, the point is that you don't base a player on their public image (LeBron is mature, LeBron is unselfish, etc.), you base them on their game and their accomplishments...Kobe has so much more to his name than LeBron. LeBron probably still looks up to Kobe like when he did in high school. He still probably watches Kobe tapes on replay from when LeBron was 14. Again, if you wanna go by what Magic says, Kobe is _____by far____ the best in the league... 8)PEACE

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

[/unbiased Basketball fan ON]

its probably silly to even ask this to a Kobe fan, but you seem sorta mature compared to these other clowns lol. But do you honestly....HONESTLY think Kobe would have performed like Lebron did in his first year if he was placed in Lebrons shoes?

I don't know. I mean i'm a Laker fan, and i only watch Lakers games, so i can't say a lot about LeBron, cause i've seen him just a pair of times in full games. But i know Kobe. I do since i'm Italian and my father used to be a referee in our italian league. He knew Kobe's father (OT: good luck coaching the Sparks), and he knew Kobe too, not as a player, but as a little kid. He was involved in the Kobe's-father-buying-the-Milan-basketball-team operation 3-4 years ago, so he's still in contact with him. Somehow Kobe is special to me. My father tells me about when he was in Reggio Emilia being the referee of a local match (Kobe's father played for Reggio Emilia), and Kobe, who was just a kid, used to hit 3pts during half time, making the crowd jump off their seats screaming his name. He was like the mascotte of the team. He looked 15 years old, lol, but he was like 6-7. That's why i've always liked Kobe, since his first day in the NBA. Add the fact that he speaks fluent in Italian, and you have my "hero". But honestly i dont think he was ready to play in the NBA. He was like Sasha Vujacic, another guard i know who grew up in Italy. He had skills, but he didnt have an NBA mentality and he wasnt a "basketball" player enought to be ready for a contender team. Just like Sasha. Personally i think Kobe gotta thank a lot of people: Tex Winter, who made him an impact SG player, Eddie Jones, who helped him in his early years, Ron Harper and Brian Shaw, who were like fathers for him (expecially when he wasnt on good terms with his real one), Jerry West, for trading Eddie Jones and giving Kobe the needed spootlight, Fisher, Fox, Horry... all those player who are real men first, then great players later. You know what i mean? He wasnt ready for the NBA yet, but those players plus Phil Jackson made him what he is today. They changed him from Tracy McGrady to 3 and a half titles. LeBron? LeBron looks like he's 30. Not only phisical, but also because he looks to be a mature man, who doesnt need all the players/men who helped Kobe. It's like if LeBron has seen a VHS of Kobe's career, and he already knows what to do and how to do it. He's Kobe when he finished his developing process. That's where i do agree with Magic. Kobe wasnt ready, LeBron is. But Kobe had the pleasure to be a Laker, something Lebron will probably never have. And Kobe had the pleasure to be a Laker when the Lakers were missing him to be a contender team. Lebron i dont know if he'll be in a team as strong as the 3peat Lakers. That's why people will always remember Kobe for the 3 rings. That's why i still prefeer Kobe. That's why Kobe is a champion, and LeBron is still a "baby". Cause no matter what, it's all about them rings. And Kobe, helped by all those people surrounding him, was been the main reason why the Lakers won 3 rings (no Kobe no rings! Somebody should remember it to Shaq!).

Youre only showing the possitives for Lebron and negatives for Kobe to support your argument. Not showing how much more pressure Lebron was under to perform then Kobe. If Kobe was a bust, then like u said....he was only a #13 pick and a backup behind a fan favorite anyways. If Lebron failed, it would be Clevelands immediate future out the window. Alot of pressure for a young kid to step into the NBA and instantly be the leader of a team. Kobe could hardly handle that last year lol. Let alone his rookie year.

Yeah LeBron is coming out pretty well, i can't deny it. I dont hate on him, I'm simply a Laker fan who supports Kobe more, obviously.

[unbiased Basketball fan OFF]

[/Laker fan mode ON]

its probably silly to even ask this to a Kobe fan, but you seem sorta mature compared to these other clowns lol. But do you honestly....HONESTLY think Kobe would have performed like Lebron did in his first year if he was placed in Lebrons shoes?

First of all let me say that Kobe averaged 15.5 mins in his first NBA season, and 26.0 in his second.
Let's make a comparision between Kobe and Lebron, by calculating their rookie stats per 40 mins.

Kobe Bryant, 18 years old, averaged 19.5 points, 4.8 rebs, 3.3 assists and 1.8 steals in 40 minutes.
LeBron James, 19 years old, averaged 21.2 points, 5.5 rebs, 6.0 assists and 1.7 steals in 40 minutes.

Honestly, they aint "so" different, considering Kobe was a kid in a contender team, while LeBron was the Cavs. And that Kobe was 18 years old in a period where there were probably just like 3-4 other players "that" young in the league. Now it's all about HS players, you know, it's a totally different scenario!

Btw it's even closer in their second years..

Kobe Bryant, 19 years old, averaged 23.7 points, 4.7 rebs, 3.9 assists and 1.4 steals in 40 minutes.
LeBron James, 20 years old, averaged 25.7 points, 6.9 rebs, 6.8 assists and 2.1 steals in 40 minutes.

LeBron's stats are better, but that's partially because he didnt have Shaq to share the ball with.

Kobe took his time to blow in the league as the best SG in the game. Something LeBron still has to do.

[/Laker fan mode OFF]

for the first half of your post....you might be right, no Kobe...no rings. But at the same time, no Shaq...no playoffs.

for the second half, this is where the problem comes into play when i argue with all these Laker fans. Somewhere along the line they seem to have gotten the idea that stats make u great. they dont. leading your team makes u great. if stats are how we judge greatness...then Magic is only the second greatest passer ever. Id put him at first, but the stats say Stockton. stats are great for basketball cards and ESPN "Did you knows" but they dont show who is really great or who is a real leader for their team. What im saying about Kobe is that he couldnt have made Cleveland a legitimate team like Lebron did this fast in his career. Kobe during his first couple years showed talent, but definetely....DEFINETELY not the ability to lead. And last year, after how many years in the league...things were the same. He didnt lead. He got his stats...and thats it. Thats not greatness. Lebron honestly IMO did a better job LEADING his team last year then Kobe did his. And Lebron still has some work to do on his leadership skills. So where does that leave Kobe? This whole argument was about who u would take to start your franchise from this point on. I said id take Lebron cus his upside is FAR higher then Kobe's....from THIS point on. Lebron still has a ton of room to improve and he was an MVP candidate last year. Its rare that many players improve during the second half of their career and typically its big men if anything. So other then being a Kobe fan, how do people not see that he falls into the same category. Yeah, he COULD improve. Im not saying its impossible. Im saying i dont think his improvement (if any) would be so drastic that theyll win another championship without some SERIOUS help. Like it or not, he won those rings WITH Shaq. Shaq has gone to the finals with the Lakers and the Magic and Miami was in good position to last year. Kobe still has to prove he can even make the playoffs without Shaq. To think that Kobe, on the perimeter was somehow helping Shaq on the inside more then the other way around only shows a lack of basketball knowledge. Any coach in this league would take a dominant big man in the middle over a dominant perimeter player. Theres so many more matchup problems a dominant big man can create as well as setting up all his perimeter players. Kobe's game, like it or not, was drastically helped by Shaqs presence. Anyways, fuckit this is getting boring lol Me, Scittles and Jake have gone back and forth since the beginning of time on this and nothing ever changes. Ive always admitted that i like Kobe's game. But the Kobe fans cant seem to get it outta their heads that he isnt perfect, and he definetely isnt Jordan lol. He's good, but his little spoiled brat "give me all the spotlight" attitude will always give him this kind of negative attention.

You honestly don't think that the 3peat Lakers minus Shaq wouldn't make the playoffs? LOL...The team that didn't make the playoffs last year was an expansion team with Kobe. Kobe STILL showed leadership skills and STILL helped every player on the team improve their game, from Chucky Atkins, to Chris Mihm. From Tierre Brown, to Caron Butler... Through injury, coaching changes, and basically a plagued team, Kobe still pulled through, still played like a superstar (without Shaq), and still mentored the new Laker players...The fact that the season plan went down the drain halfway through is not in Kobe's hands...LeBron did a better job leading? LMFAO. LeBron couldn't make the playoffs in the EAST with and all-star center by his side and a nice supporting cast who've been together enough to build chemistry. That's why you got players like Jeff McInnis leaving Cleveland, because they know they can shine better on other team...Shaq has gone to the playoffs with NBA superstars to guide him, like Penny Hardaway, Kobe Bryant, and Dwayne Wade. Shaq hasn't proven any more than Kobe has. You said you'd take LeBron to start your franchise. 30 GM's + I said Kobe was the man we'd take to start our franchise. Who has more to back them?

the 3peat lakers minus Shaq....might have still made the playoffs. But take Kobe off the team, and the team still had a chance to make the finals.

LOL...This is where the stupidity kicks in. 1995 Orlando Magic >>> 3peat Lakers minus Kobe.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

if 30 other GM's had to start with a franchise player i dont think all of em would pick kobe i can see some of em going with james or kg

Welll, I didn't make it up...It was a poll they had last year with all the GM's. All 30 said they'd pick Kobe to start their franchise.

[TeeRaySix9Teen]

for the first half of your post....you might be right, no Kobe...no rings. But at the same time, no Shaq...no playoffs.

That's an horrible statement, from every point of view. First of all Jerry West traded everybody included their mama to sign Shaq. So he gave Shaq the keys of the team, and he did it for good. But, just to make you an example, the 1997-98 team had 3 players who went in the All Star Game other than Shaq: Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and Kobe. It was the only team in the league with no 30+ years old players in the roster. It was a great team, who just had to develop into the 3peat one. I wouldnt go as far as saying no Shaq no playoffs: matter of fact the 1995-96 team, the one before Shaq, had a 53-wins record and the 2nd place in the Pacific Division spot. So no Shaq = 52 wins.

for the second half, this is where the problem comes into play when i argue with all these Laker fans. Somewhere along the line they seem to have gotten the idea that stats make u great. they dont. leading your team makes u great. if stats are how we judge greatness...then Magic is only the second greatest passer ever. Id put him at first, but the stats say Stockton. stats are great for basketball cards and ESPN "Did you knows" but they dont show who is really great or who is a real leader for their team. What im saying about Kobe is that he couldnt have made Cleveland a legitimate team like Lebron did this fast in his career.

A legitimate team? You mean LeBron made Cleveland a legitimate team by didnt reaching the Play Offs in the Eastern Conference for 2 straight years? Didn't know the real definition of "legitimate team" and the real meaning of "being the leader of a team". Now i do. Thank you LeBron!

Kobe during his first couple years showed talent, but definetely....DEFINETELY not the ability to lead.

He didnt have to. He was a rookie in a contender team runned by Shaq. He was the SG of the Lakers. Don't even compare it with the hopeless Cavs who signed LeBron to save them from being considered a total failure.

And last year, after how many years in the league...things were the same. He didnt lead. He got his stats...and thats it. Thats not greatness. Lebron honestly IMO did a better job LEADING his team last year then Kobe did his. And Lebron still has some work to do on his leadership skills. So where does that leave Kobe? This whole argument was about who u would take to start your franchise from this point on. I said id take Lebron cus his upside is FAR higher then Kobe's....from THIS point on. Lebron still has a ton of room to improve and he was an MVP candidate last year. Its rare that many players improve during the second half of their career and typically its big men if anything. So other then being a Kobe fan, how do people not see that he falls into the same category. Yeah, he COULD improve. Im not saying its impossible. Im saying i dont think his improvement (if any) would be so drastic that theyll win another championship without some SERIOUS help. Like it or not, he won those rings WITH Shaq. Shaq has gone to the finals with the Lakers and the Magic and Miami was in good position to last year. Kobe still has to prove he can even make the playoffs without Shaq.

Matter of fact LeBron too.

To think that Kobe, on the perimeter was somehow helping Shaq on the inside more then the other way around only shows a lack of basketball knowledge. Any coach in this league would take a dominant big man in the middle over a dominant perimeter player. Theres so many more matchup problems a dominant big man can create as well as setting up all his perimeter players. Kobe's game, like it or not, was drastically helped by Shaqs presence. Anyways, fuckit this is getting boring lol Me, Scittles and Jake have gone back and forth since the beginning of time on this and nothing ever changes. Ive always admitted that i like Kobe's game. But the Kobe fans cant seem to get it outta their heads that he isnt perfect, and he definetely isnt Jordan lol. He's good, but his little spoiled brat "give me all the spotlight" attitude will always give him this kind of negative attention.

What about the new commercial of Nike about Kobe? That attitude is never described by the media, uh?

first, i was talking about last year. Remember, one of these people im arguing with here is NIK who at the beginning of last year went on and on about how the Lakers would still be good because Kobe had good role players around him like Odom. Then, now....to defend Kobe says how he had no help.

second, where was cleveland the year before Lebron. at least they are contending now, even if it is only to get in the playoffs. and theyll for sure make it in next year where LA still might not.

Yeah, Kobe didnt HAVE to be a leader on the Lakers when he came in. But even the biggest Kobe dickrider on earth couldnt say that he had the mentality to be able to lead an NBA team his rookie...or even sophomore year. Not one person on EARTH who knows basketball would say that. That is my point.

Lebron too? Makes no sense. Neither Lebron or Kobe had help last year. Kobe is a veteran in this league....Lebron is still a kid. This argument on who is a better leader shouldnt even be able to be made. But it is, because of Kobe's lack of leadership skills and Lebrons maturity.

Like i said before, this argument is getting really boring. Its like arguing with some of these crazy religious fanatics about their religion. kobe is obviously your guys God lol. Sad...but true. During this argument ive even admitted i like his game, but there are negatives to him that made him and his team unsuccessful last year. You guys keep blaming everybody BUT him for any failures he has. Thats the definition of a dickrider...not a fan. As a fan, you see all aspects....positive AND negatives to whoever youre a fan of. Not ONE of you guys has admitted that there is ANYthing wrong with Kobe. He is perfect in your eyes. You gotta be kidding me...no matter how many points i prove, it wont matter. Christians cant prove the theory's of the Bible...but theyll always believe it no matter how many facts are against them. Oh well....keep worshipping u guys lol

[acbaylove]

first, i was talking about last year. Remember, one of these people im arguing with here is NIK who at the beginning of last year went on and on about how the Lakers would still be good because Kobe had good role players around him like Odom. Then, now....to defend Kobe says how he had no help.

It's exactly the same excuse LeBron fans are saying to defend Cavs failure to reach the Play Offs for 2 straight years.

second, where was cleveland the year before Lebron. at least they are contending now, even if it is only to get in the playoffs. and theyll for sure make it in next year where LA still might not.

The team before LeBron didnt reached the Play Offs for 5 straight years. The team after LeBron havent reached them yet after 2 years. I see no differences at all. Now the only difference is that they have the most publicized player in the League and Cavs, once one of the worse NBA team in the League, is one of the most appealing because they always go to National TV and because LeBron is a media-star. But it's 7 years and running with no Play Offs. I'll listen to people talking about how a leader LeBron is the very first day he'll play a minute in the Play Offs.

Yeah, Kobe didnt HAVE to be a leader on the Lakers when he came in. But even the biggest Kobe dickrider on earth couldnt say that he had the mentality to be able to lead an NBA team his rookie...or even sophomore year. Not one person on EARTH who knows basketball would say that. That is my point.

Not an interesting one. Expecially since 10 years ago a rookie from High School was something "wrong" for the NBA. Something so strange that Kobe was like an alien, like a kid in a grown men's world. Now it's all about HS players, so they're more prepared, and the teams/the media/the teammates are more prepared. Kobe 10 years ago was like a non-American player in the NBA: something "strange" that people wasnt prepared for. He was like Tony Kukoc. People just refused to give him enought props because he was European, they always repeated "who's this European kid? He can't play like we do" to themselves. Even Jordan had problems accepting him. Kobe was like that: people refused to give him props and attention just because he was 18 years old. But no matter what he forced West to trade Eddie Jones, the fan fav player on the team, to reach a better minutage. Shit man now Bynum and Gerrard Green are receiving love and it looks like the most "normal" thing in the world that they was selected being 17-18. So to compare the two situations is not a good thing. Kobe entered the league 10 YEARS AGO. It was a totally different game/scenario. Plus he joined the Lakers, a contender team runned by Shaq. So he didnt have to be a leader from the first moment, since that wasnt "his" team. LeBron had to be the leader since day 1. Cause Cavs is "his" team. To compare the two scenarios is just stupid.

Lebron too? Makes no sense. Neither Lebron or Kobe had help last year. Kobe is a veteran in this league....Lebron is still a kid. This argument on who is a better leader shouldnt even be able to be made. But it is, because of Kobe's lack of leadership skills and Lebrons maturity.

That's just your opinion. 30 GM's + Nik and I thinks Kobe is the best player to build a team around.

Like i said before, this argument is getting really boring. Its like arguing with some of these crazy religious fanatics about their religion. kobe is obviously your guys God lol. Sad...but true. During this argument ive even admitted i like his game, but there are negatives to him that made him and his team unsuccessful last year. You guys keep blaming everybody BUT him for any failures he has. Thats the definition of a dickrider...not a fan. As a fan, you see all aspects....positive AND negatives to whoever youre a fan of. Not ONE of you guys has admitted that there is ANYthing wrong with Kobe. He is perfect in your eyes. You gotta be kidding me...no matter how many points i prove, it wont matter. Christians cant prove the theory's of the Bible...but theyll always believe it no matter how many facts are against them. Oh well....keep worshipping u guys lol

[TeeRaySix9Teen]

if 30 other GM's had to start with a franchise player i dont think all of em would pick kobe i can see some of em going with james or kg

Welll, I didn't make it up...It was a poll they had last year with all the GM's. All 30 said they'd pick Kobe to start their franchise.

well, take the same poll this year and see what the results are lol. Btw...only one GM actually GOT to build their franchise around Kobe last year...maybe theyll sneak into the playoffs this year...lol

[TeeRaySix9Teen]

But i would say this, if i were to to START a team right at this moment...id take Lebron over Kobe.

30 GM's and I disagree with you...

at least one half of your statement is correct 

honestly tho, Kobe's best years have past him already. he's not the intelligent player that Jordan was. I dont see Kobe being able to evolve his game in the late years of his career when his athletisism disappears. Im not saying its gone now, but obviously Lebron's game is still in its early stages where he's going to improve. Kobe has already reached his potential. Its all down hill from here buddy 

Half of my statement? It's a fact...They had a poll in the beginning of last season. They asked all the GMs which player in the NBA they'd choose to build their team around. All 30 picked Kobeas. You're stupid for saying Kobe is going downhill from here...Jordan was just beginning at Kobe's age. Kobe is still young, there is no way he's reached his full potential...Unless he gets seriously injured or something like that, but Kobe is the type of player who works every off-season to better himself...He will amaze...PeACe

If you been payin attention to every other post ive ever made on this subject youd know, i dont consider Jordan and Kobe anywhere NEAR in the same league. And most others dont either. As a matter of fact, no one does except Kobe fans. So yeah, i think his career has already reached its pinnacle. He NEEDS others to make him great. I dont know why u guys cant see that when everyone else does. He NEEDS it. He's just not that guy. He's not the guy that makes everyone else successful. As for Lebron, i dunno if u saw Magic when he was just on Jey Leno?

when asked about the NBA age limit being at 19....he responded saying he wished it was 20. He said that all coaches feel the same. That their jobs are harder because they are stuck in the situation of having to teach kids the game of basketball. How players arent ready at the age of 18...or even 17 sometimes to play on an NBA team. He used the examples of Garnett and Kobe. Saying that they are both great players, and were good coming in. But that even they werent ready. It took them a couple years to realy develop their game to that of an NBA player. Then, in the middle of that comment he said..."except Lebron....he's special...".  Maybe Magics opinion doesnt mean shit....but lets just say...its the same as mine. Go ahead NIK....disagree with the allmighty Magic Johnson lol

No kidding, dumbass. It's obvious that LeBron developed at an earlier age than Kobe, that's all Magic was saying...How many fucking times have we heard Magic saying Kobe is the best player in the league by far, and praising Kobe as one of the greatests...So if you wanna bring Magic into this, you've just killed your whole argument by yourself...LeBron is just special as in he got to an all-star level right off the bat (being pushed on an extremely whack team, of course), but Kobe hss still accomplished so much more and is on a whole other level...Anyone who knows anything will tell you the same.

Magic is a Laker...i think you know that. Magic will support his player first. So its a much bigger deal for Magic to put someone on a higher platform once, then it would be for him to put Kobe on it 100 times. If Kobe was traded tomorrow for Lebron, Magic would turn around and say Lebron is the best player in the league. Its common sense. Lebron got "pushed" to an all star level how? You cant deny how good he is. Kobe was on just as wack a team, so it shoulda been easy for him to shine also. Lebron gets a lot of attention because in a league that seems to embrace the selfish, flashy, ballhog players....Lebron shined while being unselfish. Kobe could learn from him....


like i said, im not even a Lebron fan...also, as far as what Kobe has accomplished....not that much without Shaq.

What has Jordan accomplish without Pippen and Phil? LOL...You're a joke, you make no sense. You bring what Magic says into this, and then when I use that to prove you wrong, you try flipping everything. LeBron is still tryna' learn off players like Kobe, so what's even going through your mind when you're saying shit like "Kobe could learn from him"...LeBron came into the league HOPING to be the next Kobe. He was drafted by a team where he was the main source of offense and basically was the head of everything on the team. Yes, he was athletic enough to shine like a star, but he couldn't take his team anywhere not 1, but 2 seasons in a row. If Kareem Rush was drafted by the Cavs with the first pick, got all the media attention in the NBA, and pushed the same way LeBron was pushed, he'd be looking like a superstar too. It's all about the position you're placed in. Kobe came in the league backing up the star shooting guard of the team (Eddie Jones). Kareem Rush came in the league backing up the star shooting guard as well (Kobe)...It's all about where you are placed and how you handle it. LeBron is an excellent player, but he's no where NEAR Kobe's level. If you honestly believe that, go ahead...Kobe has proven greatness, it doesn't take a genius to see that...PeACe

how did you prove me wrong on the Magic issue? I gave you a QUOTE strait from him. And you argued it. Plain and simple. You cant prove me wrong on it, without saying that Magic was lying through his teeth.

As far as Kobe learning from him...cmon man, i know youre young...but youre not THAT young lol. EVERYone, i mean EVERYone can learn from somebody. Rookie....Veteran....it doesnt matter. There are veterans who might learn from Kobe even from time to time. I didnt say Kobe should pattern his whole entire game after Lebron. Im saying he could learn from Lebrons unselfishness. Obviously, neither of us are in their locker rooms. But i guarentee you (and if you actually played ball like u said u did, then you agree) that Lebrons teammates are happier playing with a player like him...then Kobe's would, playing with a player like him. Role players like playing with a star, who can carry them, but will allow others to shine also. As far as comparing the two at the beginning of their career....once again, the Magic quote. I only use it because i agree with it. Argue with me.....argue with Magic the Laker God. lol. If you think im wrong, then go ahead and say it NIK....Magic is a fuckin idiot. 

LOL. I shot down every one of your arguments one by one, and this is all you have? I'm not arguing with Magic, I agree with him. LeBron is special as in he developed the quickest straight out of high school...He STILL is nowhere near Kobe. You think LeBron would like to be playing on the same team as Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant, or Tracy McGrady right now? Hell no. What's your point, no superstar guard would like to play on the same team as another superstar who plays the same position. That doesn't equal winning, that equals heads clashing. LeBron has had everything to himself in Cleveland, he hasn't been put to the test yet. Remember that clean cut image Kobe had back in 2001? Everyone loved him, pretty much like everyone loves LeBron now...See, the point is that you don't base a player on their public image (LeBron is mature, LeBron is unselfish, etc.), you base them on their game and their accomplishments...Kobe has so much more to his name than LeBron. LeBron probably still looks up to Kobe like when he did in high school. He still probably watches Kobe tapes on replay from when LeBron was 14. Again, if you wanna go by what Magic says, Kobe is _____by far____ the best in the league... 8)PEACE

blah blah blah....blah blah lol. Jesus NIK...you disappoint me. Youre arguments always seem to look the same on this board. No matter who youre arguing with (which is basically everyone lol). You've only shot down as many points as youve had shot down yourself. This is a habit saying of yours over your 15 yrs here lol. You like to make yourself feel better by pretending youre winning an argument. We're arguing opinions here man, not facts. This argument is about who you would take to start your team with. I said id take Lebron over Kobe. You know im not a Lebron fan as it is, he wouldnt be my first pick and Im sure you know who that would be. My opinion of Kobe has stayed the same over the last 4-5 yrs or so and you know that. This isnt his "public image" lol. I dont give a shit if he rapes women...kills people...or whatever on his days off. I dont give a SHIT. Its his basketball maturity that i question, just like a lot of people....analysts included (since i KNOW you value their opinion more then your own). Yeah, it wouldnt be good for Lebron to be on a team with Wade, Bryant, T-Mac....etc right now. But the thing is, if he were....the coach (whoever it was) would MAKE it work. The starting lineup would be shuffled around until it worked. Someone would be changing positions to allow both to start. The Laker lineup wasnt shuffled around to let a rookie Kobe start. Not to mention, you said superstar. I liked Eddie Jones on those Laker squads....he was actually my favorite player on those teams. But....superstar? If you wanna put Eddie Jones in the same category with Kobe, T-Mac, and Wade.....then go ahead lol. You saying Lebron hasnt been put to the test? They basically placed the future of their franchise on a teenage kid! Kobe didnt have those pressures. All he had to do was sit and learn, and try not to fuck up when he got in the game his first 2 yrs. It wasnt put on his shoulders to resurrect a dying franchise or anything. Im not even really trying to argue that Lebron is such a better player then Kobe right now. Lebron is still new to the NBA really. But im arguing, and there is no way to argue this for u...that his upside is larger then Kobe's. If you dont agree with that, then youre saying that players improve more during the second half of their career....then they do during the first half of their career. lol. There is a reason the middle of your career is USUALLY referred to as your prime. Kobe has reached his prime, Lebron still has 2-3 yrs to reach his and Lebron was an MVP candidate last year. Yeah, Kobe has accomplished more...duh. But that wasnt what the argument was. If our argument is about the most "accomplished" ball players, then go ahead and agree with me that Duncan is more valuable then Kobe. But like i said, that wasnt our argument.

[TeeRaySix9Teen]

first, i was talking about last year. Remember, one of these people im arguing with here is NIK who at the beginning of last year went on and on about how the Lakers would still be good because Kobe had good role players around him like Odom. Then, now....to defend Kobe says how he had no help.

It's exactly the same excuse LeBron fans are saying to defend Cavs failure to reach the Play Offs for 2 straight years.

second, where was cleveland the year before Lebron. at least they are contending now, even if it is only to get in the playoffs. and theyll for sure make it in next year where LA still might not.

The team before LeBron didnt reached the Play Offs for 5 straight years. The team after LeBron havent reached them yet after 2 years. I see no differences at all. Now the only difference is that they have the most publicized player in the League and Cavs, once one of the worse NBA team in the League, is one of the most appealing because they always go to National TV and because LeBron is a media-star. But it's 7 years and running with no Play Offs. I'll listen to people talking about how a leader LeBron is the very first day he'll play a minute in the Play Offs.

Yeah, Kobe didnt HAVE to be a leader on the Lakers when he came in. But even the biggest Kobe dickrider on earth couldnt say that he had the mentality to be able to lead an NBA team his rookie...or even sophomore year. Not one person on EARTH who knows basketball would say that. That is my point.

Not an interesting one. Expecially since 10 years ago a rookie from High School was something "wrong" for the NBA. Something so strange that Kobe was like an alien, like a kid in a grown men's world. Now it's all about HS players, so they're more prepared, and the teams/the media/the teammates are more prepared. Kobe 10 years ago was like a non-American player in the NBA: something "strange" that people wasnt prepared for. He was like Tony Kukoc. People just refused to give him enought props because he was European, they always repeated "who's this European kid? He can't play like we do" to themselves. Even Jordan had problems accepting him. Kobe was like that: people refused to give him props and attention just because he was 18 years old. But no matter what he forced West to trade Eddie Jones, the fan fav player on the team, to reach a better minutage. Shit man now Bynum and Gerrard Green are receiving love and it looks like the most "normal" thing in the world that they was selected being 17-18. So to compare the two situations is not a good thing. Kobe entered the league 10 YEARS AGO. It was a totally different game/scenario. Plus he joined the Lakers, a contender team runned by Shaq. So he didnt have to be a leader from the first moment, since that wasnt "his" team. LeBron had to be the leader since day 1. Cause Cavs is "his" team. To compare the two scenarios is just stupid.

Lebron too? Makes no sense. Neither Lebron or Kobe had help last year. Kobe is a veteran in this league....Lebron is still a kid. This argument on who is a better leader shouldnt even be able to be made. But it is, because of Kobe's lack of leadership skills and Lebrons maturity.

That's just your opinion. 30 GM's + Nik and I thinks Kobe is the best player to build a team around.

Like i said before, this argument is getting really boring. Its like arguing with some of these crazy religious fanatics about their religion. kobe is obviously your guys God lol. Sad...but true. During this argument ive even admitted i like his game, but there are negatives to him that made him and his team unsuccessful last year. You guys keep blaming everybody BUT him for any failures he has. Thats the definition of a dickrider...not a fan. As a fan, you see all aspects....positive AND negatives to whoever youre a fan of. Not ONE of you guys has admitted that there is ANYthing wrong with Kobe. He is perfect in your eyes. You gotta be kidding me...no matter how many points i prove, it wont matter. Christians cant prove the theory's of the Bible...but theyll always believe it no matter how many facts are against them. Oh well....keep worshipping u guys lol

1. Yeah, but im not a Lebron fan. I wasnt pumping up the squad at the beginning...only to dog them in the end. That's NIKs game...

2. Reaching the playoffs is a big deal, as is winning a championship. But improvement is what youre looking for in a team. You cant say that the Cavs arent a more respected team now then they were 3 yrs ago. More then likely they will make the playoffs next year. You have to remember tho, this is a historically bad franchise. With the Lakers, Kobe can just try and "hold on" until he eventually gets some real help. Who knows if the Cavs will ever get Lebron any.

3. Kobe wasnt the first player strait out of highschool....newsflash!

4. Well, like i said to NIK...one GM who had Kobe on their franchise....as well as you and NIK i guess had a pretty disappointing year last year. As for that poll, i dont remember it. If you have a link NIK post it up man.

4. Yeah, this argument IS getting boring. You guys are pretty blind homie. Ive admitted Kobe can play. Ive even admitted he is one of the better players in the league. But you guys are so busy being cheerleaders for the guy that u dont see ANY of his faults lol. If the guy was perfect, they would have at LEAST reached the playoffs last year.

[acbaylove]

Kobe is the best SG in the league, plain and simple. He's not "perfect", nobody is. Last year the Lakers had a lot of problems:

1- Odom was forced to play PF. He can play some nice offence from the post, but he doesnt have the ability to be a defensive stopper from that position, and he cant stop the penetrations of the guards, since he aint a good shot blocker. That created a defensive hole.

2- Chucky Atkins and Tierre Brown (not to mention Sasha Vujacic) are in the Top 10 list of the worse defensive PG last season. Plain and simple, they just wasnt able to defend. Everybody and their moma made season-high games against them. It's a fact. They let everybody penetrate, and without a good intidimator inside, it was like Heaven for the opponents. Another great defensive hole.

3- Kobe Bryant had to take care of the whole attack, so he had to waste a lot of energy in offence. He needed some help from other people in defence, since usually he had Horry and Shaq inside who made his defence better. With Odom and Mihm didnt feel comfortable in defence, since nobody doubled his player, and nobody really was an intimidator inside. Another defensive hole.

4- Rudy T. doesnt know the definition of "defence". Plain and simple. The biggest defensive hole.

5- We had B.Cook, Medvedenko and Luke Walton as our best bench players. C'mon now! They cant even defend themselves during pratice.

LAKERS MISSED A GOOD DEFENSIVE-MINDED COACH, A DEFENSIVE-MINDED PF, A DEFENSIVE-MINDED PG, AND, IN GENERAL, THEY MISSED SOME CREDIBILITY.

Now they have a pretty good defensive-minded PF in Brown (i aint a fan of him, but he's better than Odom as a defensive factor in the PF spot), two backup Centers in Bynum and Divac (ok, they aint superstars, but it's better than Medvedenko, isnt it?), two defensive-minded SF in George and Jumaine Jones, two defensive-minded PG in McKie and Smush Parker, and the best coach in the League. Judge Kobe from the next season. And in 2007, when Lakers will be contenders.

[TeeRaySix9Teen]

Kobe is the best SG in the league, plain and simple. He's not "perfect", nobody is. Last year the Lakers had a lot of problems:

1- Odom was forced to play PF. He can play some nice offence from the post, but he doesnt have the ability to be a defensive stopper from that position, and he cant stop the penetrations of the guards, since he aint a good shot blocker. That created a defensive hole.

2- Chucky Atkins and Tierre Brown (not to mention Sasha Vujacic) are in the Top 10 list of the worse defensive PG last season. Plain and simple, they just wasnt able to defend. Everybody and their moma made season-high games against them. It's a fact. They let everybody penetrate, and without a good intidimator inside, it was like Heaven for the opponents. Another great defensive hole.

3- Kobe Bryant had to take care of the whole attack, so he had to waste a lot of energy in offence. He needed some help from other people in defence, since usually he had Horry and Shaq inside who made his defence better. With Odom and Mihm didnt feel comfortable in defence, since nobody doubled his player, and nobody really was an intimidator inside. Another defensive hole.

4- Rudy T. doesnt know the definition of "defence". Plain and simple. The biggest defensive hole.

5- We had B.Cook, Medvedenko and Luke Walton as our best bench players. C'mon now! They cant even defend themselves during pratice.

LAKERS MISSED A GOOD DEFENSIVE-MINDED COACH, A DEFENSIVE-MINDED PF, A DEFENSIVE-MINDED PG, AND, IN GENERAL, THEY MISSED SOME CREDIBILITY.

Now they have a pretty good defensive-minded PF in Brown (i aint a fan of him, but he's better than Odom as a defensive factor in the PF spot), two backup Centers in Bynum and Divac (ok, they aint superstars, but it's better than Medvedenko, isnt it?), two defensive-minded SF in George and Jumaine Jones, two defensive-minded PG in McKie and Smush Parker, and the best coach in the League. Judge Kobe from the next season. And in 2007, when Lakers will be contenders.

im pretty much done with this argument. its getting silly and just back and forth bullshit that isnt going anywhere. bottom line, IMO you guys seem to be more Kobe fans....then Laker fans. Thats cool if thats the case, but just be real about it. You guys always make excuses as to why the team sucked last year other then say that MAYBE....just MAYBE Kobe didnt do all he should have as the teams leader. its always somebody else. my argument about THAT, is based on NIK...aswell as a lot of Laker fans who at the beginning of last year defended their team saying their supporting cast was good. They had a potential All-Star in Odom...and other positions were filled. Your guys' opinions seem to completely mirror whatever the Laker front office's opinions are. Then, after the season...turn around to say "Kobe had no one all year". Yeah, im not doubting the team had problems. But i didnt see that Kobe was perfect all year either. There are things he can do to improve himself. If you guys dont agree, then you ARE saying he's perfect. Like i said before, this isnt based on last year alone. This is based on what ive ALWAYS thought of Kobe. He rode Shaq, period. Teams doubled Shaq his whole career...the whole time he is on the floor. It was rare teams played him strait up. Yes, Kobe is one of the best perimeter players in the league. Combine his skill, with the open looks and wide open lanes that Shaq was creating with the double teams...and you have a perimeter player that can look unstoppable. Kobe needs to learn how to play as the main focus now. Like it or not, with Shaq there...Kobe was NOT the main focus for defenses. Your main focus is gonna be the 7 ft, 300 somethin pound guy 3 feet from the basket....not the guy 20 feet from the basket. Why i put Lebron where i do in this argument. Lebron is young, barring injury probably has a long career ahead of him. You cant deny how good he is at such a young age. An MVP candidate in only his second year...and on his team, he is the man. He is the main guy. Its his team...win or lose, its on his shoulders. Kobe...experienced this for the first time last year, halfway through his career. So they are both learning the same thing as far as being the main focus on their teams. They are both learning it....and Lebron is only in his second year. Obviously, Kobe is the veteran. He obviously has been through things in the league that Lebron hasnt yet. But Lebron will go through those things, and will already have been through this process of learning to lead his team when he does. Is Kobe a stronger player right NOW, probably so. Will Lebron be stronger within 2 years, i think so.

[7even]

^^^you're so damn right.