Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: JML - no vowels, disembowel your Colin Powell, throw in the towel on October 20, 2005, 04:02:57 PM ---Yeah, you went off-topic and I returned to it....
--- End quote ---
lol...This seems to trouble you but to me "going off topic" was when you switched it from debating on the issue to my alleged misinterpretation of your anti-zionist statement...FYI
Zionism implies the creation of a Jewish state on the land on which Israel is today.
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on October 20, 2005, 04:14:30 PM ---Zionism implies the creation of a Jewish state on the land on which Israel is today.
--- End quote ---
We both know it's far more complex than that.... but let's say that this is all there was to it... what gives any group of people the right to go and kick people off a land to make it their own? My point is that things went wrong right from the start... shit has just been chaos since...
Anyways, I went to a lecture here at UCLA last night... it was by an organization called One Voice.. it's Palestinians and Israelis uniting to find a path towards peace... Jason Alexander (George on Seinfeld) was one of the members speaking... they have gone out to the streets of Israeli and Palestinian villages/towns/cities and a majority of the people they have talked to on both sides want peace ASAP... the problem is that the extremists on both sides have more control, and sadly are focused on more by our media... basically the moderates are kinda pushed out of the picture even though they are the majority.... the average citizen wants a solution but the extremists have their agendas to push and often times they're not really risking anything except lives other than their own...
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: JML - no vowels, disembowel your Colin Powell, throw in the towel on October 20, 2005, 04:36:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on October 20, 2005, 04:14:30 PM ---Zionism implies the creation of a Jewish state on the land on which Israel is today.
--- End quote ---
We both know it's far more complex than that.... but let's say that this is all there was to it... what gives any group of people the right to go and kick people off a land to make it their own? My point is that things went wrong right from the start... shit has just been chaos since...
Anyways, I went to a lecture here at UCLA last night... it was by an organization called One Voice.. it's Palestinians and Israelis uniting to find a path towards peace... Jason Alexander (George on Seinfeld) was one of the members speaking... they have gone out to the streets of Israeli and Palestinian villages/towns/cities and a majority of the people they have talked to on both sides want peace ASAP... the problem is that the extremists on both sides have more control, and sadly are focused on more by our media... basically the moderates are kinda pushed out of the picture even though they are the majority.... the average citizen wants a solution but the extremists have their agendas to push and often times they're not really risking anything except lives other than their own...
--- End quote ---
Often when the situation prior to the declaration of Israel is discussed people are often mislead. When Jews first started arriving to this land from Europe they've encountered the Turks, Jews that would come years later would encounter the Brits. It was always a mandate along with a percentage of seemingly native population that greeted the Jewish pioneers, which for the most part consisted of Arabs and a small percentage of native Jews. The native Arab population consisted for the most part of agriculturists and farmers. Those farmers whose assets were larger owned lands,plantations and meadows(owning land at the time of the mandate involved taxing and sometimes the land had been bought from the authorities themselves), those whose assets were smaller either worked for the Sheiks or stuck to the Beduin custom of wondering from place to place, at times they would wonder outside of Palestine meanwhile others would wonder into Palestine. These people never had a self determination agenda, they never intended to found their own national home, since they did not consider themselves a nation,it was a multi layered tribal community, furthermore, some of the tribes where utterly hostile toward one another- blood vengeance and pirating went back to the dawn of Islam, and they weren't strangers to these customs. When the first Jews arrived they came with one mission and one mission only- to found a Jewish National Home-Zionism, they have begun buying lands from Sheiks(who were eager to get rid of putrid, swampy land for relatively big prices) and to cultivate the land, many low asset farmers where employed by Jews during those times and since Jews had long term plans more of these farmers settled down-they had a permanent work place, big portions of the land that was bought were covered with swamps, malaria was harvesting the population, many died in agony, they started planting Eucalyptuses that were known to suck in swamps, after years of work the land blossomed.
The ones who opposed the founding of a Jewish state in Palestine the most throughout history weren't the Palestinians- Those were Syria and Egypt....their leaders dreamt to unite in a single state, bridging through Palestine. Israel's war of independence in 48 right after it's declaration was a common effort of the Arab nations to remove Israel but the seed of self determination was planted into the natives' collective conscience by the same Sheiks or their heirs (who once had assets in Palestine and sold them, who now wanted to regain their rejuvenated and improved land without having to pay.*see under "The right of return"* ) prior to the declaration of the Jewish state and there's even been an offer to create a binational state but the Sheiks who had their puppet freedom fighters within Palestine maneuvered them to decline. The rest is history.
J @ M @ L:
That's a nice rosy story... you've got the broad picture down... but you're missing a lot of things. Once you can be honest with yourself... you'll realize that you have nothing to lose by telling the whole truth on what you know... instead of posting about historic facts and events which include Jewish terrorism and slaughter of Palestinians, I'm just going to stick to the point and show you that there's more to Zionism than just the establishment of a Jewish home... because that's the goal, yes, but the ideology entails more, and the means to justify that end isn't as rosy as you'd like to believe.... so instead of talking out of my ass, like you do, I'm just going to let the guys who were a part of this movement, and quite frankly, who know a lot more about it than you or I, do the talking....
What did Theodore Herzl state in the "Complete Diaries" (1895)?
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
How about Joseph Weitz of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department (1940) which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine?
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both parties together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."
By the way, if you want a better understanding of the complexity Zionism entails, I suggest you read "The Iron Wall" by Vladimir Jabotinsky who was the founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud).... here's a couple quotes that will show you what I mean when I say that Zionism is more than just "a Jewish homeland"... it's an ideology that entails a lot more than that....
"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in total, our policy towards the Arabs..."
"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE! Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force....it is important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonialization."
As you can see... in order for the Zionists to achieve their goal, they have to do a lot of not so nice things...
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: JML - no vowels, disembowel your Colin Powell, throw in the towel on October 21, 2005, 03:39:22 AM ---That's a nice rosy story... you've got the broad picture down... but you're missing a lot of things. Once you can be honest with yourself... you'll realize that you have nothing to lose by telling the whole truth on what you know... instead of posting about historic facts and events which include Jewish terrorism and slaughter of Palestinians, I'm just going to stick to the point and show you that there's more to Zionism than just the establishment of a Jewish home... because that's the goal, yes, but the ideology entails more, and the means to justify that end isn't as rosy as you'd like to believe.... so instead of talking out of my ass, like you do, I'm just going to let the guys who were a part of this movement, and quite frankly, who know a lot more about it than you or I, do the talking....
What did Theodore Herzl state in the "Complete Diaries" (1895)?
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
How about Joseph Weitz of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department (1940) which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine?
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both parties together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."
By the way, if you want a better understanding of the complexity Zionism entails, I suggest you read "The Iron Wall" by Vladimir Jabotinsky who was the founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud).... here's a couple quotes that will show you what I mean when I say that Zionism is more than just "a Jewish homeland"... it's an ideology that entails a lot more than that....
"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in total, our policy towards the Arabs..."
"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE! Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force....it is important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonialization."
As you can see... in order for the Zionists to achieve their goal, they have to do a lot of not so nice things...
--- End quote ---
Your quotes from Herzel belong to a stream within Zionism which went later to become the foundation of today's Left Wing- it's primary agenda was to generate a segregation between the 2 nations, these are the people who first came up with the transfer idealogy and whose heirs much later came up with Oslo. These were speculations and soliloquies, Theodore Herzel was the author of a number of utopian ideas, he also contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists but not many of his ideas were executed...As you know he originally predicted the creation of a Jewish state in Uganda, the idea of transfering the native population also didn't come true. In addition I will say this, Jabotinski a right wing precursor did not believe in segregation of the 2 nations and before the Palestinian side declined he was among the supporters of a binational state (which I have already mentioned) only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility(something he had foreseen), means needed to be taken(-He even proclaimed to the native population that the Jewish pioneers intended to found a Jewish state, based on Jewish majority, where the natives,the Palestinians, would receive equal rights).
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