Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Arafat Death Probe Inconclusive
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on October 21, 2005, 06:45:01 AM ---
--- Quote from: JML - no vowels, disembowel your Colin Powell, throw in the towel on October 21, 2005, 03:39:22 AM ---That's a nice rosy story... you've got the broad picture down... but you're missing a lot of things. Once you can be honest with yourself... you'll realize that you have nothing to lose by telling the whole truth on what you know... instead of posting about historic facts and events which include Jewish terrorism and slaughter of Palestinians, I'm just going to stick to the point and show you that there's more to Zionism than just the establishment of a Jewish home... because that's the goal, yes, but the ideology entails more, and the means to justify that end isn't as rosy as you'd like to believe.... so instead of talking out of my ass, like you do, I'm just going to let the guys who were a part of this movement, and quite frankly, who know a lot more about it than you or I, do the talking....
What did Theodore Herzl state in the "Complete Diaries" (1895)?
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
How about Joseph Weitz of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department (1940) which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine?
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both parties together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."
By the way, if you want a better understanding of the complexity Zionism entails, I suggest you read "The Iron Wall" by Vladimir Jabotinsky who was the founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud).... here's a couple quotes that will show you what I mean when I say that Zionism is more than just "a Jewish homeland"... it's an ideology that entails a lot more than that....
"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in total, our policy towards the Arabs..."
"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE! Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force....it is important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonialization."
As you can see... in order for the Zionists to achieve their goal, they have to do a lot of not so nice things...
--- End quote ---
Your quotes from Herzel belong to a stream within Zionism which went later to become the foundation of today's Left Wing- it's primary agenda was to generate a segregation between the 2 nations, these are the people who first came up with the transfer idealogy and whose heirs much later came up with Oslo. These were speculations and soliloquies, Theodore Herzel was the author of a number of utopian ideas, he also contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists but not many of his ideas were executed...As you know he originally predicted the creation of a Jewish state in Uganda, the idea of transfering the native population also didn't come true. In addition I will say this, Jabotinski a right wing precursor did not believe in segregation of the 2 nations and before the Palestinian side declined he was among the supporters of a binational state (which I have already mentioned) only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility(something he had foreseen), means needed to be taken(-He even proclaimed to the native population that the Jewish pioneers intended to found a Jewish state, based on Jewish majority, where the natives,the Palestinians, would receive equal rights).
--- End quote ---
LOL @ your choice of words... "only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility"....
These were the ZIONISTS at the time when ZIONISM was established and put into effect.... these are THEIR words telling what their plans are and what must be done... what the fuck does it matter what else they predicted? Since we're on the topic of precursors... let's see what the precursor to all the propaganda you've fallen victim to is.... honestly, this one is actually funny....
"A LAND WITHOUT PEOPLE FOR A PEOPLE WITHOUT LAND" LOL... Zionism justified itself based on this when there were hundreds of thousands of people living there and you mean to tell me there's nothing wrong with Zionist ideology.... Zionism relies on killing and removing a population of its land... Zionism = Terrorism, Oppression, etc.
Just listen to Ben Gurion... take his advice....
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice."
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: JML - no vowels, disembowel your Colin Powell, throw in the towel on October 21, 2005, 11:11:00 AM ---
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on October 21, 2005, 06:45:01 AM ---
--- Quote from: JML - no vowels, disembowel your Colin Powell, throw in the towel on October 21, 2005, 03:39:22 AM ---That's a nice rosy story... you've got the broad picture down... but you're missing a lot of things. Once you can be honest with yourself... you'll realize that you have nothing to lose by telling the whole truth on what you know... instead of posting about historic facts and events which include Jewish terrorism and slaughter of Palestinians, I'm just going to stick to the point and show you that there's more to Zionism than just the establishment of a Jewish home... because that's the goal, yes, but the ideology entails more, and the means to justify that end isn't as rosy as you'd like to believe.... so instead of talking out of my ass, like you do, I'm just going to let the guys who were a part of this movement, and quite frankly, who know a lot more about it than you or I, do the talking....
What did Theodore Herzl state in the "Complete Diaries" (1895)?
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
How about Joseph Weitz of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department (1940) which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine?
"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both parties together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."
By the way, if you want a better understanding of the complexity Zionism entails, I suggest you read "The Iron Wall" by Vladimir Jabotinsky who was the founder of Revisionist Zionism (precursor of Likud).... here's a couple quotes that will show you what I mean when I say that Zionism is more than just "a Jewish homeland"... it's an ideology that entails a lot more than that....
"Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, be continued and make progress only under the protection of a power independent of the native population - an iron wall, which will be in position to resist the pressure to the native population. This is, in total, our policy towards the Arabs..."
"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE! Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force....it is important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonialization."
As you can see... in order for the Zionists to achieve their goal, they have to do a lot of not so nice things...
--- End quote ---
Your quotes from Herzel belong to a stream within Zionism which went later to become the foundation of today's Left Wing- it's primary agenda was to generate a segregation between the 2 nations, these are the people who first came up with the transfer idealogy and whose heirs much later came up with Oslo. These were speculations and soliloquies, Theodore Herzel was the author of a number of utopian ideas, he also contributed some of his ideas to the early Zionists but not many of his ideas were executed...As you know he originally predicted the creation of a Jewish state in Uganda, the idea of transfering the native population also didn't come true. In addition I will say this, Jabotinski a right wing precursor did not believe in segregation of the 2 nations and before the Palestinian side declined he was among the supporters of a binational state (which I have already mentioned) only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility(something he had foreseen), means needed to be taken(-He even proclaimed to the native population that the Jewish pioneers intended to found a Jewish state, based on Jewish majority, where the natives,the Palestinians, would receive equal rights).
--- End quote ---
LOL @ your choice of words... "only when the Palestinian side began to rely on hostility"....
These were the ZIONISTS at the time when ZIONISM was established and put into effect.... these are THEIR words telling what their plans are and what must be done... what the fuck does it matter what else they predicted? Since we're on the topic of precursors... let's see what the precursor to all the propaganda you've fallen victim to is.... honestly, this one is actually funny....
"A LAND WITHOUT PEOPLE FOR A PEOPLE WITHOUT LAND" LOL... Zionism justified itself based on this when there were hundreds of thousands of people living there and you mean to tell me there's nothing wrong with Zionist ideology.... Zionism relies on killing and removing a population of its land... Zionism = Terrorism, Oppression, etc.
Just listen to Ben Gurion... take his advice....
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice."
--- End quote ---
Your seem to have ignored my previous post entirely.
J @ M @ L:
Actually I addressed it with this:
"These were the ZIONISTS at the time when ZIONISM was established and put into effect.... these are THEIR words telling what their plans are and what must be done... what the fuck does it matter what else they predicted?"
You seem to have ignored my post though. :)
Like I said... this was over a long time ago... you have nothing. It's like arguing with someone who supported Hitler and the Nazis... there's no way to defend it... :)
I TO DA GEEZY:
--- Quote from: JML - no vowels, disembowel your Colin Powell, throw in the towel on October 21, 2005, 01:15:24 PM ---Actually I addressed it with this:
"These were the ZIONISTS at the time when ZIONISM was established and put into effect.... these are THEIR words telling what their plans are and what must be done... what the fuck does it matter what else they predicted?"
You seem to have ignored my post though. :)
Like I said... this was over a long time ago... you have nothing. It's like arguing with someone who supported Hitler and the Nazis... there's no way to defend it... :)
--- End quote ---
Ok this is going to feel like wasting a post but the situation is asking for it. Man, the statements that you quoted weren't the ones to establish Zionism, the people you quoted were influenced by the idea of Zionism, they didn't invent it. They had different takes on how to manifest the idea, Jabotinski once dramatically left the Zionist Congress claiming that the congress was anything but Zionist, when it opposed him and his followers. What Im saying is that Zionism is an ideal, it's an agenda- Just like "Self Determination", and as an ideal it is defined the way I've stated before. I've also mentioned that Herzel was first and foremost a thinker, a utopian novelist, he liked to speculate with concepts and ideas so I mentioned his prediction to show that he often assumed things that were far from becoming reallity. The key leading to the understanding of factors that were responsible for triggering this seemingly perpetual feud is within my posts already and if you choose to close your eyes then so be it.
J @ M @ L:
--- Quote from: I TO DA GEEZY on October 21, 2005, 03:54:55 PM ---Ok this is going to feel like wasting a post but the situation is asking for it. Man, the statements that you quoted weren't the ones to establish Zionism, the people you quoted were influenced by the idea of Zionism, they didn't invent it. They had different takes on how to manifest the idea, Jabotinski once dramatically left the Zionist Congress claiming that the congress was anything but Zionist, when it opposed him and his followers. What Im saying is that Zionism is an ideal, it's an agenda- Just like "Self Determination", and as an ideal it is defined the way I've stated before. I've also mentioned that Herzel was first and foremost a thinker, a utopian novelist, he liked to speculate with concepts and ideas so I mentioned his prediction to show that he often assumed things that were far from becoming reallity. The key leading to the understanding of factors that were responsible for triggering this seemingly perpetual feud is within my posts already and if you choose to close your eyes then so be it.
--- End quote ---
Ok now you're sounding retarded.... nobody INVENTED Zionism... but if you don't think that Theodor Herzl was one of the first, if not the founder, to lead the movement, then you don't know your shit... he planned the first Zionist Congress... he wrote Der Judenstaat in 1896... the word Zionism was coined in 1890... so what the fuck are you talking about? Don't talk out of your ass.
Yeah Zionism is an agenda... and I've shown you what that agenda includes... killing and removing a population off its land. There's no way you can deny that when the people who have carried out this "idea or agenda" as you call it... and have admitted that this is the only way to do it.
It seems like you don't even know what you're arguing here... and all you're able to say is "I'm sure I've addressed that somewhere in my posts, but you didn't see it".... when the fact of the matter is that your bullshit paragraphs don't mean anything.
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