Lifestyle > Train of Thought
Bush wanted to bomb Al-Jazeera?
Don Rizzle:
--- Quote from: Antonio on December 02, 2005, 03:41:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Allah's Slave: Abdul-Infinite on December 02, 2005, 03:21:48 PM ---Antonio, do you feel what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm pointing out that the example you showed me represents internal issue within the Muslim community. It deals with the Saudi's reaction to what they deamed heretical teaching by another Muslim. Which is a different subject.
--- End quote ---
That's exactly the point, man. I live in Italy. Well, it doesn't matter Christians are in overwhelming majorit here: Italy is still considered a non-religious Country by our Constitution, and everybody is allowed to follow and preach his favourite religion, with no limitations and with nobody forcing other people to preach a particular religion. At school, kids can choose if they want to partecipate to (Christian) lessons of religion or not. And they can partecipate to Islam lessions too, if they ask it. Here in Italy they've made a law so they had to remove all the Crucifixes from our public places (included schools) to respect people who ain't Christians. Here there are a lot of mosquees, expecially in Rome, basically where the Pope lives. There are 8 huge mosquees in Rome. And about 150 other mosquees all over our Country. You know what i mean? Why do you still consider Saudi Arabia a muslim nation? Religion should have nothing to do with the organization of a Country. I mean it's not acceptable for me to believe here in Italy, in the Country where the Pope lives, we are so "liberal", and there you can't be like us. Why? Why can't we have Christian Churches there? Why can't a teacher talk about Jesus Christ at school?
--- End quote ---
the vatican is very powerful in itally and can operate great deal of censorship to stop things they deem damaging to their religion for example getting il caso calvi banned, although i may be wrong on this i'd like to hear your views on what kind of power the vatican can exert on italy
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: Antonio on December 03, 2005, 02:12:35 AM ---
I'm extremely happy to read it. I knew it. That's why i don't think we should make a Christians vs Muslims war. But I was thinking.. i'm a Roman Catholic Christian, the religion of the Pope of Rome. We have separated ourselves from the other branches of Christianity who was born after the original one (i mean we've never accepted them). There's a strong separation between "us" and the other people who still consider themselves Christians. Why don't you do something similiar with other people who claim to represent the same religion you do? Why did you call them people in Saudi Arabia "muslims"? Matter of fact they're representing a religion different from your. You should separate yourself from them fakers.
--- End quote ---
I'm not down with seperating myself with other people who claim submission to the will of Allah (Islam). Because the Qu'ran Kareem condemns that sort of behaivor. As the English translation shows in the following verses, dividing oneself into a seperate group or sect is not liked by Allah, and Allah teaches us to make ammends between two contending brothers.
49:10 The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy. [/i]
[6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with
you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform
them of everything they had done.
[/i]
[30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide
their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what
they have.
[/i]
[42:14] Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the
knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and
resentment among themselves. If it were not for a
predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for
a definite interim, they would have been judged
immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited
the scripture are full of doubts.
[/i]
There is one verse where Allah mentions that if a party of Muslims transgresses against other Muslims then you may defend those Muslims being transgressed against; but still the ultimate inclination is towards peace, and here is that verse.
49:9 If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies then make peace between them with justice and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just). [/i]
Antonio, ^^ what are your thoughts?
Ant:
so all somebody has to do is claim a belief in allah and in the Quran and you'll consider them a brother and offer them your support? Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. That just sets you up to be taken advantage of by the Jerry Fallwells of your religion who will claim to believe, but only use their belief to manipulate others.
It's not healthy for your religion to blindly accept and support anyone who claims to be a muslim. It seems similiar to the current situation in America, where the biggest assholes in this country are the one's who most loudly proclaim to be patriotic americans (see bill orielly, rush limbaugh). Then some people who dont really think things thru say to themselves, yeah these guys are patriots just like me, so i am gonna support them.
If any group wants to stay strong it needs to take a stand against those who don't support the core ideals of the group. In your case certain muslims are at odds with the core beliefs of islam even tho they claim to have faith.
TraceOneInfinite:
--- Quote from: Ant on December 03, 2005, 07:32:29 PM ---so all somebody has to do is claim a belief in allah and in the Quran and you'll consider them a brother and offer them your support? Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. That just sets you up to be taken advantage of by the Jerry Fallwells of your religion who will claim to believe, but only use their belief to manipulate others.
It's not healthy for your religion to blindly accept and support anyone who claims to be a muslim. It seems similiar to the current situation in America, where the biggest assholes in this country are the one's who most loudly proclaim to be patriotic americans (see bill orielly, rush limbaugh). Then some people who dont really think things thru say to themselves, yeah these guys are patriots just like me, so i am gonna support them.
If any group wants to stay strong it needs to take a stand against those who don't support the core ideals of the group. In your case certain muslims are at odds with the core beliefs of islam even tho they claim to have faith.
--- End quote ---
I posted above an example of a verse from Qu'ran where Allah mentions that if a party of Muslims transgresses against other Muslims then you may defend those Muslims being transgressed against; but still the ultimate inclination is towards peace, and here is that verse.
49:9 If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies then make peace between them with justice and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just). [/i]
So there are instances where the Qu'ran protects us from our religion being overtaken by people who transgress. But like I said above, ultimately Allah did not give this way of life to the people to divide them, Islam was sent as a mercy to the people. As Allah says in the Qu'ran something to the effect of "You were enemies one to another and Allah joined your hearts."[/i] And you see a great example of this every year at Hajj time, when Muslims from all over the world join together and perform the pilgrimage, and no matter if you are from Indonesia, Nigeria, or America your hearts are united and you join in prayer, worship, and effort in the path of Allah.
Islam was the way of life given to all the Prophets of mankind, the first known Prophet Adam, was taught to submit to his Creator alone, and to do righteous good deeds, which is the definition of Islam. All the Prophets followed this religion; even Jesus; what happened is later a hundred or so years after Jesus; Paul was riding his horse in Damascus and he said he saw a vision, and in the vision God was three, and Jesus was God and so on and so forth; I'll let one of the Christians on the forum explain it if they want to.
acbaylove:
--- Quote from: Don Rizzle on December 03, 2005, 04:12:34 AM ---
--- Quote from: Antonio on December 02, 2005, 03:41:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Allah's Slave: Abdul-Infinite on December 02, 2005, 03:21:48 PM ---Antonio, do you feel what I'm saying? I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm pointing out that the example you showed me represents internal issue within the Muslim community. It deals with the Saudi's reaction to what they deamed heretical teaching by another Muslim. Which is a different subject.
--- End quote ---
That's exactly the point, man. I live in Italy. Well, it doesn't matter Christians are in overwhelming majorit here: Italy is still considered a non-religious Country by our Constitution, and everybody is allowed to follow and preach his favourite religion, with no limitations and with nobody forcing other people to preach a particular religion. At school, kids can choose if they want to partecipate to (Christian) lessons of religion or not. And they can partecipate to Islam lessions too, if they ask it. Here in Italy they've made a law so they had to remove all the Crucifixes from our public places (included schools) to respect people who ain't Christians. Here there are a lot of mosquees, expecially in Rome, basically where the Pope lives. There are 8 huge mosquees in Rome. And about 150 other mosquees all over our Country. You know what i mean? Why do you still consider Saudi Arabia a muslim nation? Religion should have nothing to do with the organization of a Country. I mean it's not acceptable for me to believe here in Italy, in the Country where the Pope lives, we are so "liberal", and there you can't be like us. Why? Why can't we have Christian Churches there? Why can't a teacher talk about Jesus Christ at school?
--- End quote ---
the vatican is very powerful in itally and can operate great deal of censorship to stop things they deem damaging to their religion for example getting il caso calvi banned, although i may be wrong on this i'd like to hear your views on what kind of power the vatican can exert on italy
--- End quote ---
If you are a judge, or a politician, basically you don't want to go against the Vatican. Because it can damage your career, since there are millions of Christians here. That's how things like that happens (well it was in the late '70s anyway). Plus, since the Vatican moves millions of euro's, everyday, everybody wants to eat some of the cake. The "caso Calvi" was something extremely complicated, maybe too much for this forum/discussion. But no doubt there are some connections between judges, politicians, the Vatican, the money. But, to stay in-topic, it doesn't really affect the common people. Here it's legal to have an abortion, or to have a judicial separation. Here we all have free sex before we get married. Just to make some examples. Things that goes strongly against the Vatican's desire. It's not that they rule Italy, no way.
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