Can we agree that "The Chronic" had a NEGATIVE impact on hip-hop & black youth?

[Turf Hitta]

Great topic, by the way. Sparked some good discussion in here.

[nibs]

I don't see how you can say "The Chronic" had a positive effect on hip-hop and still agree it had a negative impact on black youth.  Considering how closely tied hip-hop culture is to black youth, there's really no distinction you can make there.

hip hop is not black culture.  it's separate.  it's thriving.  you have pointed out on more than one occasion that it isn't black youths or the black community that controls or directs hip hop.  i think it's clear that hip hop and black culture are separate yet intertwined entities.  maybe it's a symbiotic relationship; maybe it's a parasitic relationship.  i think we would agree that if anything it's a parasitic relationship because as the popularity and wealth of hip hop grows, it continues to undermine and caricature black culture in many ways.

Hip-hop may not have a responsibility to the black youth, but it still has to acknowledge that black youth are influenced by it.

why does hip hop have to acknowledge that black youth are influenced by it?  and furthermore, why should it act responsibly or caringly with that knowledge?  you have already established in this and other threads that it isn't black youths, or black adults, or the black community, that govern hip hop;  that direct it's popularity.  i'd argue that many of the forces that mold and shape hip hop clearly have a hostile attitude towards the black community as it continues to promote hip hop that portrays the black community in a negative light.

if anything, hip hop has been turned into a weapon against the black community, rather than a tool to uplift and strengthen the black community, which it once was.

[ABN]

Great topic, by the way. Sparked some good discussion in here.

yeam but it´s hard to argue with all of the points in this thread coz you´ll fuck around and come up with an essay

[Turf Hitta]

Great topic, by the way. Sparked some good discussion in here.

yeam but it´s hard to argue with all of the points in this thread coz you´ll fuck around and come up with an essay

 Yea, but what I like about it is its making me think of valid points on both sides and its making it hard to just stick to one side so if you say something it better carry some weight.

[Eihtball]

^Dre might´ve made it more negative but it can´t be aiight for someone to do something negative and then be bad for someone else to do basically the same thing(i agree that Dre might´ve been more negative but guns on your cover aint extremely negative?). and have you seen the Lil Ghetto Boy video? if so you´ll know that Dre and them also showed what´ll happen to your ass if you fuck around in the streets.

Look, I've already said this before: Yeah, "The Chronic" was NOT the only excessively hedonistic rap album out, nor the first.  What makes "The Chronic" significant is the fact that, as I've said before, it was the most popular and the most influential.  Avoid semantics, blood.

[Eihtball]

Cant argue with that, but the negatives you are speaking on existed in music before Dre. There were artists before him doing the same types of records and its through the progress that those records made, it opened the door wide open for someone like Dre to really get huge off of it. If it wasnt for the progress that similar artists before him made, then it wouldnt have happened. I think as much as you can blame Dre, you can also blame the mainstream pop (white) audience that bought into it and the white machine behind it that made it as big as it was. If not for them, The images portrayed on albums like the Chronic would not have existed in the proportion that they did. There wouldnt have been the videos on MTV or the spins on pop radio. I dont think there is an artist in the business that can get that big with just a black youth audience.

Oh, I have little doubt.  I've often spoken at length about how I consider white mainstream culture's collision with hip-hop to be a bad thing.  Not that I think white people can't or shouldn't like hip-hop, but they only thrive on the most negative images of black folk (akin to the Minstrel Show), but since they have the largest numbers (and thus, all of the money), the corporations listen to them and give them what they want - too much gangsta shit.

[Eihtball]

hip hop is not black culture.  it's separate.  it's thriving.  you have pointed out on more than one occasion that it isn't black youths or the black community that controls or directs hip hop.  i think it's clear that hip hop and black culture are separate yet intertwined entities.  maybe it's a symbiotic relationship; maybe it's a parasitic relationship.  i think we would agree that if anything it's a parasitic relationship because as the popularity and wealth of hip hop grows, it continues to undermine and caricature black culture in many ways.

I wouldn't say they're completely separate, but I will agree that hip-hop is not immune to outside influences - in this case, the corporate machine pumping money into the culture in exchange for negative, stereotyped images.

why does hip hop have to acknowledge that black youth are influenced by it?  and furthermore, why should it act responsibly or caringly with that knowledge?  you have already established in this and other threads that it isn't black youths, or black adults, or the black community, that govern hip hop;  that direct it's popularity.  i'd argue that many of the forces that mold and shape hip hop clearly have a hostile attitude towards the black community as it continues to promote hip hop that portrays the black community in a negative light.

if anything, hip hop has been turned into a weapon against the black community, rather than a tool to uplift and strengthen the black community, which it once was.

I agree with the last part completely.  That said, however, we do have to acknowledge that white folks aren't gonna change and step up - we can't let them take all responsibility, because if we play the victims, we will keep getting victimized.  The people like Kanye (yeah, I know some of ya'll groan), Common, and Little Brother are examples of artists who refuse to play by the corporate executives' rulebook and are helping to change things around.  Even if rich white record executives have fucked up hip-hop, that doesn't mean we're powerless to change things, and the sooner we do, the better.

[ABN]

^of course it was the most influental but it doesn´t change the fact that The Chronic would never ever existed if those albums hadn´t been fairly successful by the standars of those days. and there certaily was albums that had nothing positive on them before The Chronic that were damn near as successful. Eazy Duz It went 2x platinum and try to find more positive songs on that album, The Chronic went 3x platinum just in case anyone didn´t know. now if you would´ve said that Dr.Dre´s influence on hip hop then it would´ve been another thing IMO coz he was apart of some most of the super negative albums of the late 80´s and early 90´s. hmmm now i´m gonna go and make a Kool G Rap bashing thread for bein the first real gangsta rapper.

[Turf Hitta]

I think I am going to have to concede that overall it probably did have a negative effect, but I have a problem with singling out The Chronic and Dr Dre as the root of the problem.

[Eihtball]

^of course it was the most influental but it doesn´t change the fact that The Chronic would never ever existed if those albums hadn´t been fairly successful by the standars of those days. and there certaily was albums that had nothing positive on them before The Chronic that were damn near as successful. Eazy Duz It went 2x platinum and try to find more positive songs on that album, The Chronic went 3x platinum just in case anyone didn´t know. now if you would´ve said that Dr.Dre´s influence on hip hop then it would´ve been another thing IMO coz he was apart of some most of the super negative albums of the late 80´s and early 90´s. hmmm now i´m gonna go and make a Kool G Rap bashing thread for bein the first real gangsta rapper.

Homie, you still ain't hearing me out.

Records sales and influence are two mutually exclusive concepts.  In case you haven't read my first post, I acknowledged that there were gangsta rappers selling lots of records before "The Chronic" (N.W.A. went 2x Platinum, so did Eazy, The D.O.C. went Gold, Ice-T sold a bunch of Gold albums, etc.)  But the difference between those albums and "The Chronic" is that they didn't have as much impact upon hip-hop or pop culture as a whole - they were still basically on the margin, not the center, of what hip-hop was about.  "The Chronic" marked the point where basically all new rap that came out was gangsta rap - because Dre was the first gangsta rapper to successfully break down the barriers preventing gangsta shit from getting on MTV and BET and crossing over completely.

So in that sense, "The Chronic" marked the end of positivity in hip-hop - no more Das EFX, no more Public Enemies, no more Fu-Schnickens, etc.  Trust me, I was alive and listening to hip-hop back then, and I can fully remember just what happened after "The Chronic" came out.  Maybe you can't appreciate it because you weren't around then, but I sure as fuck can.

[djlocskeet]

You acting like niggaz wasn't bangin or smokin weed before 91-92 what country are you from?   And it didn't make a mockery of Krs or any of them cats they was on some eastcoast black pride shit.  I think it turned the eastcoast into the fake pink bangin pussies they are now, but what harm did it do anywhere else.  Remember the Truce was in 93.

[Kaligula]

^of course it was the most influental but it doesn´t change the fact that The Chronic would never ever existed if those albums hadn´t been fairly successful by the standars of those days. and there certaily was albums that had nothing positive on them before The Chronic that were damn near as successful. Eazy Duz It went 2x platinum and try to find more positive songs on that album, The Chronic went 3x platinum just in case anyone didn´t know. now if you would´ve said that Dr.Dre´s influence on hip hop then it would´ve been another thing IMO coz he was apart of some most of the super negative albums of the late 80´s and early 90´s. hmmm now i´m gonna go and make a Kool G Rap bashing thread for bein the first real gangsta rapper.

Homie, you still ain't hearing me out.

Records sales and influence are two mutually exclusive concepts.  In case you haven't read my first post, I acknowledged that there were gangsta rappers selling lots of records before "The Chronic" (N.W.A. went 2x Platinum, so did Eazy, The D.O.C. went Gold, Ice-T sold a bunch of Gold albums, etc.)  But the difference between those albums and "The Chronic" is that they didn't have as much impact upon hip-hop or pop culture as a whole - they were still basically on the margin, not the center, of what hip-hop was about.  "The Chronic" marked the point where basically all new rap that came out was gangsta rap - because Dre was the first gangsta rapper to successfully break down the barriers preventing gangsta shit from getting on MTV and BET and crossing over completely.

So in that sense, "The Chronic" marked the end of positivity in hip-hop - no more Das EFX, no more Public Enemies, no more Fu-Schnickens, etc.  Trust me, I was alive and listening to hip-hop back then, and I can fully remember just what happened after "The Chronic" came out.  Maybe you can't appreciate it because you weren't around then, but I sure as fuck can.

I've been listening and hearing everything said thus far, and I'd have to say that this is pretty on point. I was about 13 when the Chronic came out (92') and I remember the change as well. And Biggie was the first east coast rapper to really figure out how to take that west coast attitude and make it work for an east coast dude.

The only other thing I have to add is that if you're gonna talk about the Chronic, you have to throw in Cypress Hill as well, because their first album came out right around the same time and it had a huge effect on culture as well.

[Eihtball]

You acting like niggaz wasn't bangin or smokin weed before 91-92 what country are you from?   And it didn't make a mockery of Krs or any of them cats they was on some eastcoast black pride shit.  I think it turned the eastcoast into the fake pink bangin pussies they are now, but what harm did it do anywhere else.  Remember the Truce was in 93.

Another muh'fucka that obviously didn't read carefully enough.  I don't even have to respond to this BS.