West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96' on January 31, 2005, 07:14:10 AM
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too personal
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~NEWSFLASH~
No one really cares......
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Question: Do you see much hate literature in the mosques you visit?
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~NEWSFLASH~
No one really cares......
lmao
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Question: Do you see much hate literature in the mosques you visit?
no
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Question: Do you see much hate literature in the mosques you visit?
no
You sure about that?
NEW REPORT ON SAUDI GOVERNMENT PUBLICATIONS IN U.S.
WASHINGTON, DC, January 28, 2005- Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom released today a new report exposing the dissemination of hate propaganda in America by the government of Saudi Arabia.
The 89-page report, “Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques,” is based on a year-long study of over two hundred original documents, all disseminated, published or otherwise generated by the government of Saudi Arabia and collected from more than a dozen mosques in the United States.
The propagation of hate ideology by Saudi Arabia is known to be worldwide, but its occurrence within the United States has received scant attention until now. Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology are a distinct minority, as is evident by the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors.
The report concludes that the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a “totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence,” and the fact that it is “being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government, namely Saudi Arabia, demands our urgent attention.” The report finds: “Not only does the government of Saudi Arabia not have a right – under the First Amendment or any other legal document – to spread hate ideology within U.S. borders, it is committing a human rights violation by doing so.”
Such publications that “advocate an ideology of hatred have no place in a nation founded on religious freedom and toleration,” write James Woolsey, chairman of the board of Freedom House, in the foreword to the report.
Among the key findings of the report:
· Various Saudi government publications gathered for this study, most of which are in Arabic, assert that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations;
· The documents promote contempt for the United States because it is ruled by legislated civil law rather than by totalitarian Wahhabi-style Islamic law. They condemn democracy as un-Islamic;
· The documents stress that when Muslims are in the lands of the unbelievers, they must behave as if on a mission behind enemy lines. Either they are there to acquire new knowledge and make money to be later employed in the jihad against the infidels, or they are there to proselytize the infidels until at least some convert to Islam. Any other reason for lingering among the unbelievers in their lands is illegitimate, and unless a Muslim leaves as quickly as possible, he or she is not a true Muslim and so too must be condemned. For example, a document in the collection for the “Immigrant Muslim” bears the words “Greetings from the Cultural Attache in Washington, D.C.” of the Embassy of Saudi Arabia, and is published by the government of Saudi Arabia. In an authoritative religious voice, it gives detailed instructions on how to “hate” the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel;
· One insidious aspect of the Saudi propaganda examined is its aim to replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam with extremist Wahhabism, the officially-established religion of Saudi Arabia. In these documents, other Muslims, especially those who advocate tolerance, are condemned as infidels. The opening fatwa in one Saudi embassy-distributed book, published by the Saudi Air Force, responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels. The Saudi state cleric’s reply rebukes the Muslim cleric: “He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.” Since, under Saudi law, “apostates” from Islam can be sentenced to death, this is an implied death threat against the tolerant Muslim imam, as well as an incitement to vigilante violence;
· Sufi and Shiite Muslims are viciously condemned;
· For a Muslim who fails to uphold the Saudi Wahhabi sect’s sexual mores (i.e. through homosexual activity or heterosexual activity outside of marriage), the edicts published by the Saudi government’s Ministry of Islamic Affairs, and found in American mosques advise, “it would be lawful for Muslims to spill his blood and to take his money;”
· Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs explicitly asserts, they “should be killed;”
· Saudi textbooks and other publications in the collection, propagate a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treat the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avow that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel;
· Regarding women, the Saudi publications instruct that they should be veiled, segregated from men and barred from certain employment and roles;
The report states: “While the government of Saudi Arabia claims to be ‘updating’ or reforming its textbooks and study materials within the Kingdom, its publications propagating an ideology of hatred remain plentiful in some prominent American mosques and Islamic centers, and continue to be a principal resource available to students of Islam within the United States.”
The research, translation and principle analysis of the materials for the report were carried out by both Muslims and non-Muslims who wish to remain anonymous for reasons of security. Some 90 percent of the publications are in Arabic; two independent translators reviewed each Arabic document. This project was undertaken after many Muslims requested the Center’s help in exposing Saudi extremism in the hope of freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.
You can read the full report here. It's very scary stuff.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/publications/Saudi%20Report/FINAL%20FINAL.pdf
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The only thing I'm being taught to hate or dislike as a Muslim is oppression. And I didn't even have to be taught that by any religion.
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The only thing I'm being taught to hate or dislike as a Muslim is oppression. And I didn't even have to be taught that by any religion.
So what about the oppression of people from other religions under Sharia?
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The only thing I'm being taught to hate or dislike as a Muslim is oppression. And I didn't even have to be taught that by any religion.
So what about the oppression of people from other religions under Sharia?
First of all, the Sharia was pieced together by (imperfect man) certian scholars, many of whom have disagreed on certain items, and will continue to disagree, and is not always applied correctly. Much of what you see in the Sharia is not from the Noble Qu'ran. For example, this whole thing about someone being killed for leaving Islam is not found in the Qu'ran. Infact, the Qu'ran states that there is no compulsion in religion, and consistently reinforces that what makes man special is that Allah has given him the free will to choose, so no man should ever take away someone's right to choose their religion.
Much of the Sharia law has been derived by scholars, and is from the various traditions of the Prophet Muhammad, things that he may have said or done, that have been passed down from generation to generation, and have been many times altered and manipulated by man. The Hadith science is not perfect. The highest form of giudance for Muslims is the Noble Qu'ran. The Qu'ran is the words of Allah. The Qu'ran has been protected from manipulation by Allah, it was revealed in a form that was easy to memorize, so the Muslims memorized and perserved it through an oral tradition.
Still, do not think negetively on Islamic government. During the times when Muslims still had a Caliphate, and a Muslim Empire, the Ottoman Empire, Christians and Jews were allowed to administer to their own laws in their cities. The only requirement was that they pay taxes, just as you and I are required to pay taxes in this country. The Muslims were already paying their own religious tax, Muslims are required to pay a tax in the Noble Qu'ran. Infact, Jews even experienced their golden age in art and literature under Muslim rule in Spain. Jews will readily admit to this.
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First of all, the Sharia was pieced together by (imperfect man) certian scholars, many of whom have disagreed on certain items, and will continue to disagree, and is not always applied correctly. Much of what you see in the Sharia is not from the Noble Qu'ran.
That's funny, I can find multiple examples all over the internet (many from Islamic web sites) stating that Sharia is derived directly from the Koran, the Hadith, and the Sunnah. To say it doesn't all come from the Koran may be true, but either you don’t understand your own religion, or you’re deliberately trying to misguide people. No Taqiyya Please. Also, if there's so much wrong with the Sharia, why is it praticed in the "home" of Islam, Saudi Arabia?
For example, this whole thing about someone being killed for leaving Islam is not found in the Qu'ran. Infact, the Qu'ran states that there is no compulsion in religion, and consistently reinforces that what makes man special is that Allah has given him the free will to choose, so no man should ever take away someone's right to choose their religion.
It may not be found in the Koran, but it's pratcied in a majority of Muslim countries. What you fail to mention about the "compulsion" verse is that it's overridden by subsequent Koranic verses(9:73 for starters). The way you speak, you claim that there is only one religion, and everybody is muslim (remember the moon and sun are both muslim talk?). How can there be "compulsion" when you say things like that?
Still, do not think negetively on Islamic government. During the times when Muslims still had a Caliphate, and a Muslim Empire, the Ottoman Empire, Christians and Jews were allowed to administer to their own laws in their cities. The only requirement was that they pay taxes, just as you and I are required to pay taxes in this country. The Muslims were already paying their own religious tax, Muslims are required to pay a tax in the Noble Qu'ran. Infact, Jews even experienced their golden age in art and literature under Muslim rule in Spain. Jews will readily admit to this.
This is an outright lie. You're telling me that jizya and zakat were essentially the same? Do some reading.
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That's funny, I can find multiple examples all over the internet (many from Islamic web sites) stating that Sharia is derived directly from the Koran, the Hadith, and the Sunnah. To say it doesn't all come from the Koran may be true, but either you don’t understand your own religion, or you’re deliberately trying to misguide people. No Taqiyya Please. Also, if there's so much wrong with the Sharia, why is it praticed in the "home" of Islam, Saudi Arabia?
You admitted that it doesn't all come from the Noble Qu'ran, so that's the end of that argument. Secondly, Saudi Arabia is not the "home" of Islam. Mekkah is the city we make pilgrimage too, and that city happens to be inside Saudi Arabia. But Saudi Arabia is not the home of Islam. Saudi got it's name from the Saudi royal family, the British backed the Saudi's and helped put them into power around World War 1. The last time the Muslims had a Caliphate and Islamic empire was in the 19th century under the Ottoman Empire that was in Istanbull, Turkey. The Caliphate and the Ottoman was defeated in World War 1.
It may not be found in the Koran, but it's pratcied in a majority of Muslim countries. What you fail to mention about the "compulsion" verse is that it's overridden by subsequent Koranic verses(9:73 for starters). The way you speak, you claim that there is only one religion, and everybody is muslim (remember the moon and sun are both muslim talk?). How can there be "compulsion" when you say things like that?
First of all it's not practiced in a majority of Muslim countries, go to your little Islamichate.com websites and find me proof that it's practiced by a majority of Muslim countries, you can not back that statement up, it is a lie. As for the sun and the moon being Muslim, they are submitters to the will of the Creator, and they do not deviate from their prescribed courses, us, on the other hand, although we were created by Allah, he has given us free will, and some people choose to reject the reality of their Creator.
This is an outright lie. You're telling me that jizya and zakat were essentially the same? Do some reading.
Once again, if I'm lying then go to your IhateIslam.com website and find proof. What I said is not a lie. The American government forces me to pay taxes in this country. Likewise, in an Islamic country all people are required to pay taxes. Muslims are obligated to pay our religious tax, and non-Muslims are obligated to pay jizya tax.
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You admitted that it doesn't all come from the Noble Qu'ran, so that's the end of that argument.
Sharia is based on Islam. Islam comes from the Koran. Is this passage not in the Koran?
Chapter 45: The Chapter of the Kneeling
17 ...then we gave you a Sharia in religion, follow it, and do not follow the lust of those who do not know...
Secondly, Saudi Arabia is not the "home" of Islam. Mekkah is the city we make pilgrimage too, and that city happens to be inside Saudi Arabia. But Saudi Arabia is not the home of Islam. Saudi got it's name from the Saudi royal family, the British backed the Saudi's and helped put them into power around World War 1. The last time the Muslims had a Caliphate and Islamic empire was in the 19th century under the Ottoman Empire that was in Istanbull, Turkey. The Caliphate and the Ottoman was defeated in World War 1.
So Mecca isn't the traditional "home" of Islam? I'd say it's the "home" of Islam just like Vatican City is the "home" of Catholicism. It's the "religious capital" of Islam.
First of all it's not practiced in a majority of Muslim countries, go to your little Islamichate.com websites and find me proof that it's practiced by a majority of Muslim countries, you can not back that statement up, it is a lie. As for the sun and the moon being Muslim, they are submitters to the will of the Creator, and they do not deviate from their prescribed courses, us, on the other hand, although we were created by Allah, he has given us free will, and some people choose to reject the reality of their Creator.
I wasn't aware that www.religousfreedom.com perched hate for Islam? Why is it every time somebody asks tough questions about your religion, your initial defense is anger instead of explanation?
Perhaps I misspoke. Islam is mentioned in Sharia is practiced in some way/shape/form Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan (before US invasion), parts of Nigeria, Egypt, Indonesia, and Canada. You can't deny that there's a powerful movement in Islamic countries (and any country with Muslim population) towards Sharia law.
I think it's funny that you say we can reject the will of the creator. If people reject the will of the creator, wouldn't that make them apostates? Whats the punishment for being an apostate again?
Once again, if I'm lying then go to your IhateIslam.com website and find proof. What I said is not a lie. The American government forces me to pay taxes in this country. Likewise, in an Islamic country all people are required to pay taxes. Muslims are obligated to pay our religious tax, and non-Muslims are obligated to pay jizya tax.
Many esteemed historians (including Maxime Rodinson, Bat Ye'or, and A.S. Tritton) have shown that it was money from the dhimmi’s, not from Muslims, that financed the early Islamic empires. Muslims paid nothing at all into the state treasury in the days when there were large populations (EX: Syria and Syria) of conquered Christians. Maxime Rodinson even points out that at certain times conversions to Islam were forbidden, as they were destroying the available tax base!
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Englewood, what do you know about Saudi institutional wahhabism?
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PESHAWAR, Feb 3: An MPA of the ruling Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal on Thursday tabled two private bills in the NWFP Assembly suggesting that music and dance in public places and educational institutions, and using photographs of women in advertisements be declared penal offences punishable by up to five years in prison along with a fine of up to Rs5,000 and Rs10,000, respectively.
The 'NWFP Prohibition of Dancing and Music Bill, 2005' and the 'NWFP Prohibition of Use of Women Photographs Bill, 2005' were moved by Mian Nadir Shah, the MPA from Mardan. Both offences will be cognizable and non-bailable.
Under rules, the voting on the bills can take place in three days. Opposition members Abdul Akbar Khan of the People's Party Parliamentarians and Bashir Ahmad Bilour of the Awami National Party opposed the bills.
In their speeches in the house on Thursday, both opposition members said the bills were aimed at Talibanisation of the province. In the first draft law, a public place is a building, house, room, tent, enclosure, road, lane, bridge, square or any other place to which the public is admitted to witness a dance or music performance on payment or otherwise.
The draft law envisages that dance with all its variations shall mean the performance of dance with or without any money consideration or reward. Similarly, music means musical functions with or without any money consideration or reward.
If the law is enacted, dancing and music in a public place or in an educational institution will be considered an offence punishable with imprisonment of up to five years and with fine of up to Rs5,000.
The proposed law empowers a police officer not below the rank of inspector to enter any public place or educational institution and arrest any person who in his opinion has committed, or is committing or is about to commit such offence, including the person who abets the commission of such an offence.
The second bill pertaining to photographs of women reads: "Photograph means a photograph of a woman obtained through camera or hand drawing/painting or portrait, whether factual or artificial, which may amount to any incentive to sensuality or excitement of impure thoughts in the mind of an ordinary man of normal temperament; or tends to corrupt those minds which are open to such immoral influence, or which is deemed to be detrimental to public morals and calculated to produce pernicious effect, in depriving and debauching the minds of person."
The draft law envisages that no person shall use the photograph in derogation of the dignity of human being or for commercial or advertisement purpose or for any purpose of monetary benefit or gain, including matters ancillary or incidental thereto.
http://www.dawn.com/2005/02/04/top7.htm
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^ In three years, the only improvement youve made, is your copy and paste timing, youre mouse game is unstoppable!!
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Still waiting for you to try and defend.
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The only thing I'm being taught to hate or dislike as a Muslim is oppression. And I didn't even have to be taught that by any religion.
how about the women in islam ???
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The only thing I'm being taught to hate or dislike as a Muslim is oppression. And I didn't even have to be taught that by any religion.
how about the women in islam ???
How about the women in Christianity? Property? There's a difference between a religion teaching something, and people of a certain religion carrying out actions... if they do, it doesn't necessarily mean that the religion is teaching it.
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How about the women in Christianity? Property? There's a difference between a religion teaching something, and people of a certain religion carrying out actions... if they do, it doesn't necessarily mean that the religion is teaching it.
There's no way you can compare Christianity and Islam in their treatment of women.
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How about the women in Christianity? Property? There's a difference between a religion teaching something, and people of a certain religion carrying out actions... if they do, it doesn't necessarily mean that the religion is teaching it.
There's no way you can compare Christianity and Islam in their treatment of women.
Yes I can. If you want to talk about "Islamic countries" today, and Western countries, then you're right, I can't.
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Yes I can. If you want to talk about "Islamic countries" today, and Western countries, then you're right, I can't.
I assume you're talking about stuff from the Old Testament?
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Yes I can. If you want to talk about "Islamic countries" today, and Western countries, then you're right, I can't.
I assume you're talking about stuff from the Old Testament?
I'll be honest with you... I don't know if the things I read were specifically from the Old or New Testament... I just know they were in the Bible... but if you're saying that those things are only described in the Old Testament, then I'll take your word for it (for now)... but Christians do read and follow the Old Testament just like they do the New one, no?
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I don't think you'll find any Christian or Jewish sect of any importance or influence that believes the Books of Moses are anything other than the History of the People of Israel. The only part of the Old Testament that is considered the "inerrant Word of God" would be the Ten Commandments. Most practicing Christians and Jews (including Fundementalists, Conservatives and Orthodox) understand that that was a different time and place. Whack-jobs like David Koresh don't count.
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that was a different time and place
That could be argued for a lot of things in these religions...
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Bumping for a reply from finite.
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Could you copy and paste whatever it is you want me to reply to?
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You admitted that it doesn't all come from the Noble Qu'ran, so that's the end of that argument.
Sharia is based on Islam. Islam comes from the Koran. Is this passage not in the Koran?
Chapter 45: The Chapter of the Kneeling
17 ...then we gave you a Sharia in religion, follow it, and do not follow the lust of those who do not know...
Secondly, Saudi Arabia is not the "home" of Islam. Mekkah is the city we make pilgrimage too, and that city happens to be inside Saudi Arabia. But Saudi Arabia is not the home of Islam. Saudi got it's name from the Saudi royal family, the British backed the Saudi's and helped put them into power around World War 1. The last time the Muslims had a Caliphate and Islamic empire was in the 19th century under the Ottoman Empire that was in Istanbull, Turkey. The Caliphate and the Ottoman was defeated in World War 1.
So Mecca isn't the traditional "home" of Islam? I'd say it's the "home" of Islam just like Vatican City is the "home" of Catholicism. It's the "religious capital" of Islam.
First of all it's not practiced in a majority of Muslim countries, go to your little Islamichate.com websites and find me proof that it's practiced by a majority of Muslim countries, you can not back that statement up, it is a lie. As for the sun and the moon being Muslim, they are submitters to the will of the Creator, and they do not deviate from their prescribed courses, us, on the other hand, although we were created by Allah, he has given us free will, and some people choose to reject the reality of their Creator.
I wasn't aware that www.religousfreedom.com perched hate for Islam? Why is it every time somebody asks tough questions about your religion, your initial defense is anger instead of explanation?
Perhaps I misspoke. Islam is mentioned in Sharia is practiced in some way/shape/form Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Afghanistan (before US invasion), parts of Nigeria, Egypt, Indonesia, and Canada. You can't deny that there's a powerful movement in Islamic countries (and any country with Muslim population) towards Sharia law.
I think it's funny that you say we can reject the will of the creator. If people reject the will of the creator, wouldn't that make them apostates? Whats the punishment for being an apostate again?
Once again, if I'm lying then go to your IhateIslam.com website and find proof. What I said is not a lie. The American government forces me to pay taxes in this country. Likewise, in an Islamic country all people are required to pay taxes. Muslims are obligated to pay our religious tax, and non-Muslims are obligated to pay jizya tax.
Many esteemed historians (including Maxime Rodinson, Bat Ye'or, and A.S. Tritton) have shown that it was money from the dhimmi’s, not from Muslims, that financed the early Islamic empires. Muslims paid nothing at all into the state treasury in the days when there were large populations (EX: Syria and Syria) of conquered Christians. Maxime Rodinson even points out that at certain times conversions to Islam were forbidden, as they were destroying the available tax base!
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Sharia is based on Islam. Islam comes from the Koran. Is this passage not in the Koran?
Chapter 45: The Chapter of the Kneeling
17 ...then we gave you a Sharia in religion, follow it, and do not follow the lust of those who do not know...
Yes, that is correct, it is best for a Muslim government to implement Islamic (Sharia) law.
So Mecca isn't the traditional "home" of Islam? I'd say it's the "home" of Islam just like Vatican City is the "home" of Catholicism. It's the "religious capital" of Islam.
Yes, that is correct, you could call Mekkah the "religious capital" of Islam.
I wasn't aware that www.religousfreedom.com perched hate for Islam? Why is it every time somebody asks tough questions about your religion, your initial defense is anger instead of explanation?
I think I do my best to explain everything as respectfully as possible. And you are no one to talk to me about offering a polite explanation.
I think it's funny that you say we can reject the will of the creator. If people reject the will of the creator, wouldn't that make them apostates? Whats the punishment for being an apostate again?
Some Islamic governments have punished apostates, others have not, but I assure you, nowhere in the Qu'ran does it give a Muslim government the liscence to punish an apostate.
Many esteemed historians (including Maxime Rodinson, Bat Ye'or, and A.S. Tritton) have shown that it was money from the dhimmi’s, not from Muslims, that financed the early Islamic empires. Muslims paid nothing at all into the state treasury in the days when there were large populations (EX: Syria and Syria) of conquered Christians. Maxime Rodinson even points out that at certain times conversions to Islam were forbidden, as they were destroying the available tax base!
The non-Muslims were taxed, and the Muslims had to pay their obigatory Zakat.
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too personal
Allah, please help this man!!
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too personal
Allah, please help this man!!
Thank you for your supplication.
Allah needs nothing from me, but I am in great need of his mercy. I make myself low, so that I am constantly in need of Allah's overpowering mercy and sustanance. Alllah is the sustainer, no sustainer but Allah. Oh Allah, please help me, I am weak, bless me with a heart that is enlightened, a toungue that is truthful, an intellect that is unairing, a countenance that is pleasing to you Allah, Allah bless me in this life, and in the hereafter raise me in the company of the righteousness.
Oh Allah, help me!!