West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Maestro Minded on November 16, 2004, 06:10:58 AM
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FALLUJA, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. military is investigating whether a Marine shot dead an unarmed, wounded insurgent during the battle for Falluja in an incident captured on videotape by a pool reporter.
The man was shot in the head at close range Saturday by a Marine who found him among a group of wounded men. The wounded men were found in a mosque that Marines said had been the source of small-arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire the previous day.
The Marine in the videotape has been removed from his unit and taken to the headquarters of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, and the Navy's Criminal Investigative Service said it plans to question one of the other wounded Iraqis as part of the probe, according to the pool reporter embedded with the unit.
"Let me make it perfectly clear: We follow the law of armed conflict and we hold ourselves to high standard of accountability," Marine Lt. Gen. John F. Sattler said Tuesday. "The facts of this case will be thoroughly pursued to make an informed decision and to protect rights of all persons involved."
The investigation will determine whether the Marine violated any rules or should be charged with any crime. Lt. Col. Bob Miller, a staff judge advocate for the 1st Marine Division, said wounded insurgents who pose no threat generally "would not be considered hostile."
The Marine seen shooting the man was part of a squad from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, which had been part of intense house-to-house fighting in southern Falluja.
U.S. rules of engagement prohibit American troops from killing any prisoner who does not pose a threat, and commanders say they are worried the video might encourage more insurgents to fight to the death rather than surrender.
The military asked that networks obscure the names and recognizable faces of the Marines inside the mosque when they broadcast video of the incident. The request came from Marine judge advocate Col. John Weil to NBC News, which videotaped the killing, and was based on privacy concerns.
Friday, the Marines were fired upon by snipers and insurgents armed with rocket-propelled grenades from a mosque and an adjacent building. The Marines returned fire with tank shells and machine guns.
They eventually stormed the mosque, killing 10 insurgents and wounding five others, and showing off a cache of rifles and grenades for journalists.
The Marines told the pool reporter that the wounded men would be left behind for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. But Saturday, another squad of Marines found that the mosque had been reoccupied by insurgents and attacked it again, only to find the same wounded men inside.
Four of the men appeared to have been shot again in Saturday's fighting, and one of them appeared to be dead, according to the pool report. In the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing.
A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."
The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."
When told by the pool reporter that the men were among those wounded in Friday's firefight, the Marine who fired the shot said, "I didn't know, sir. I didn't know."
The Marines said they are investigating why the wounded Iraqis were left behind for 24 hours and whether the man was killed illegally. Navy investigators said they believe they have located the fifth Iraqi -- the only one not wounded a second time -- who said he wanted to provide information about the killing.
Before the Marines entered the mosque Saturday, a lieutenant from one of two squads involved in the fighting was told that there were people inside.
"Did you shoot them?" he asked.
"Roger that, sir," one of the men replied.
"Were they armed?" the lieutenant asked. The other Marine shrugged.
The Marine who shot the Iraqi man had reportedly been returned to duty after suffering a minor facial wound Friday.
About a block away, a Marine was killed and five others wounded by a booby-trapped body they found in a house after a shootout with insurgents.
The human rights organization Amnesty International raised concerns about violations of the rules of war last week, after a British news program broadcast video of what it said was the killing of another wounded insurgent by U.S. troops.
Amnesty also noted reports that insurgents have used mosques as fighting positions, and in one incident appear to have used a white flag to lure Marines into an ambush.
"All violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law must be investigated and those responsible for unlawful attacks, including deliberate targeting of civilians, indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, and the killing of injured persons must be brought to justice," the group said in a statement issued Thursday.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/15/marine.probe/index.html
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Yeah I saw that. Its interesting how these things only happen when the camera is rolling. Nope, nothing bad ever happens when the camera is off. Obviously if we are torturing and executing people in front of the camera, we are doing much worse when no camera is around. And that doesn't concern me out of sympathy for the iraqis as much as it concerns me that actions like these are certainly not helping us win the war on terror and the war in iraq. All it does is incite further violoence against us, and actually legitimizes the cause of the attackers.
Now all they have to say to justify their attacks on the US is we torture people, we killed tens of thousands, we blew up homes, we executed the injured, and so on.
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*waits for smerlus to say that americans are dominating the iraqis and winning the war clearly*
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*waits for smerlus to say that americans are dominating the iraqis and winning the war clearly*
ummm we are
did you think before you actually typed that up? show me in the Milton Bradley rules on war where it says if you shoot an injured person, you lose the war
i'm glad you think about me but honestly you've just jumped to the dumbest conclusion i've seen anyone jump to in a long time... you should get some sleep
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*waits for smerlus to say that americans are dominating the iraqis and winning the war clearly*
ummm we are
did you think before you actually typed that up? show me in the Milton Bradley rules on war where it says if you shoot an injured person, you lose the war
i'm glad you think about me but honestly you've just jumped to the dumbest conclusion i've seen anyone jump to in a long time... you should get some sleep
LOL
Dont get all offensive, Im the homie man. It's just that everytime and atrocitiy happens, you're like "we're winning this war. it's 1000 to 100000." and stuff like that.
My post didnt indicate that now you're losing the war because you behave like animals, my post indicated that you behave like animals and that particular smerlus dude is still proud because you win the war. I thought that was obvious. Why would I think you lose the war because of that?? That doesnt even make sense.
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*waits for smerlus to say that americans are dominating the iraqis and winning the war clearly*
ummm we are
did you think before you actually typed that up? show me in the Milton Bradley rules on war where it says if you shoot an injured person, you lose the war
i'm glad you think about me but honestly you've just jumped to the dumbest conclusion i've seen anyone jump to in a long time... you should get some sleep
LOL
Dont get all offensive, Im the homie man. It's just that everytime and atrocitiy happens, you're like "we're winning this war. it's 1000 to 100000." and stuff like that.
My post didnt indicate that now you're losing the war because you behave like animals, my post indicated that you behave like animals and that particular smerlus dude is still proud because you win the war. I thought that was obvious. Why would I think you lose the war because of that?? That doesnt even make sense.
well if you know we're winning the war, why would you need my confirmation...your comment still doesn't make any sense...
it's war...worse things have happened in a time of war, and no one can say how being in a battlefield is going to affect anyone....some people go through all this shit in a warzone error-free and when they return to their wives and kids, they beat the hell out of them...these people see close up what we only see in movies
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it's just that comments like "we're winning. 1000 to 100000 yet." and stuff similiar that are simply inappropriate in such threads. I just criticized your recent behaviour, not the fact that america is winning the war or that bad things happen in a war. both of those things dont suprise me, no matter how bad they are :D
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well when you put all incidents aside, what it boils down to is that we're still winning
the US pounded fallujah, lost 36 people but killed 1000-2000 insurgents, gained control of another city and pushed the terrorists back. a single act by a single person that lost control does little to darken this victory... he broke the law and he will be defending himself from a murder trial and possibly a life sentence.
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lol are you really that impressed that we are winning a war against a tiny militia? no one expected us to lose in Iraq, but no one expected us to do as badly as we are doing.
Did you forget, your leader declared the war over more than a year ago now? lol how do you seriously sit around and justify all this nonsense to youself? It makes no sense. The war was declared over a year ago, and more people are still continuing to die. We didn't route 2000 insurgents in fallujah. The insurgents all left, thats why new fighting is breaking out all over iraq this week.
I don't doubt that we will win the war in Iraq? But who the hell is the war even against? It was supposed to be against saddam. He is gone now. Then we were there to liberate iraq. Now we are there to beat iraq?
This isn't baseball asshole. When the score is 35-1000 that isn't points. That is dead bodies. Do you realize this? Because you talk about war like its a game.
So when the mission is accomplished and we finally beat Iraq then what? How do we deal with the rest of the terrorist threat? Al-Queda exists in 60 countries, and they are just ONE terrorist group, there are plenty more. Granted Al-Queda is the biggest, but we are having a tough time with a shitty little insurgency in Iraq. I'm looking forward to the day you go over there. Then you will realize how childish you've been all this time, when u see bullets flying by you and then they hit you and you realize, its not Halo. You don't go run, and grab the health pack, and rejoin the battle. You sit there and die or wake up in a hosipital in pain for weeks.
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well when you put all incidents aside, what it boils down to is that we're still winning
the US pounded fallujah, lost 36 people but killed 1000-2000 insurgents, gained control of another city and pushed the terrorists back. a single act by a single person that lost control does little to darken this victory... he broke the law and he will be defending himself from a murder trial and possibly a life sentence.
how many civillians have died in falluja since the invasion?
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Its interesting how these things only happen when the camera is rolling. Nope, nothing bad ever happens when the camera is off. Obviously if we are torturing and executing people in front of the camera, we are doing much worse when no camera is around.
Of course.
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lol are you really that impressed that we are winning a war against a tiny militia? no one expected us to lose in Iraq, but no one expected us to do as badly as we are doing.
Did you forget, your leader declared the war over more than a year ago now? lol how do you seriously sit around and justify all this nonsense to youself? It makes no sense. The war was declared over a year ago, and more people are still continuing to die. We didn't route 2000 insurgents in fallujah. The insurgents all left, thats why new fighting is breaking out all over iraq this week.
I don't doubt that we will win the war in Iraq? But who the hell is the war even against? It was supposed to be against saddam. He is gone now. Then we were there to liberate iraq. Now we are there to beat iraq?
This isn't baseball asshole. When the score is 35-1000 that isn't points. That is dead bodies. Do you realize this? Because you talk about war like its a game.
So when the mission is accomplished and we finally beat Iraq then what? How do we deal with the rest of the terrorist threat? Al-Queda exists in 60 countries, and they are just ONE terrorist group, there are plenty more. Granted Al-Queda is the biggest, but we are having a tough time with a shitty little insurgency in Iraq. I'm looking forward to the day you go over there. Then you will realize how childish you've been all this time, when u see bullets flying by you and then they hit you and you realize, its not Halo. You don't go run, and grab the health pack, and rejoin the battle. You sit there and die or wake up in a hosipital in pain for weeks.
1. tiny militia? 2000 dead, 1000 captured in fallujah and you consider this tiny? this happens to be the only people we happened to kill and capture...there could be numbers more. it's harder to fight a war against people that look like civilians than it is against a country's army that all have the same uniform... a person in iraq can ride his bike, drop off a IED, kill 8 people and then be off to work....i don't expect you to comprehend this because all you do is sit behind your computer reading articles.
2. if you want to be technical...the war was already over, it was declared over almost a year ago...right now we're just providing security...so while sadaam is gone, there's always the need for security
3. i've already been in one warzone, i've got medals for it. i've done charity and security work in countries where we had to have a group of marines watch us while we try to rebuild schools,and got medals for that. Now i'm training to be in a combat unit that's headed to iraq in jan.... don't sit behind your computer and preach to me what might happen to me, i'm well aware of all this and more. if anyone has a right to talk and debate on this subject it's me, because while all you guys make up reasons on how this situation effects your life, it REALLY effects my life
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^ Much respect.
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What kind of war has more casualties per day after the war ends than while its going on?
Look I'm glad you proudly serve your country, but don't bullshit me that just because you serve in the military you know it all. Anyone that blindly supports Bush loses their right to a credible opinion. I've come on here repeatedly and instead of just spouting personal opinions I've shown you reports, and analysis by republicans and independents. Meanwhile you, nor anyone else on this site, has ever been able to effectively argue against me. The reason you can't is because this time your side is wrong, and your position is completely indefensible.
Instead you have to look for ways to discredit the attacks. Richard Clarke is partisan. Michael Scheurer is simply disgruntled. McLaughlin is upset he didn't get to head the CIA. Nobel Laureates are all liberals. The economists don't know whet they are talking about.
The way you argue. The only people who are right are the people who side with Bush. Imagine if instead of trying to prove your side right you tried to simply find out what was the truth. Instead you come from a biased position, and your unwilling to change. I was willing to change my opinion for a long time, but not one ever countered the arguements leveled agaisnt Bush. Bush never countered them instead he just deflected, lied, and slandered his opposition.
Then you come on here talking like an ignorant asshole that is proud we are 'crushin'g the opposition. We aren't crushing the opposition. We are killing people. We are killing insurgents, and we killing innocent civilians. I don;t have to serve in iraq to tell you that is wrong. If you proudly stand up for the killing of tens of thousands of innocents, if you stand up for the execution of injured insurgents, and the torture of thousands more then fuck off prick no one is proud that you served and have ur medals.
I'm proud of the soldier that served their country respectfully and served for the good of their nation and the good of the world. My Father and both of my grandfathers served under the US military. Countlesss men and women have served this country respectfully. But don't tell me that some lil prick that talks about killing like its a football game deserves respect. Everytime I hear you run your motuh about how we are killing and tearin everyoen apart it makes me think that your not different than the guy mentioned in this article.
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This is Urban Combat people, the most difficult fighting in the world.
Take your Anti-War hats off and be in thats guys position.About a block away, a Marine was killed and five others wounded by a booby-trapped body they found in a house after a shootout with insurgents.
He was shot the day before in the face and when your fighting in an area when you don't know when your gonna get shot i would do the same.
Also, this camera man is a complete moron/idiot. You don't video tape someone killing anyone even if it was armed terrorist shooting at Americans. Now, cuz of this, there will be more Terrorists and even more people who hate Americans and this war.
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I watched the video. It had a squad of marines walking into a open room. There were 4(?) iraqi bodies laying on the ground (im guessing insurgents). Three marines walk up to an insurgent who is laying on the ground barley moving. They walk right up to him and then they kill him.
Ive seen tons of videos of this sort of thing happening, and even if i hadnt it still wouldnt shock me. This happens all the time in war, and from both sides. Do you honestly think the iraqis are nice to the americans if they capture one? I HIGHLY doubt it. But that comment is not to defend what the marines did.
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well it's a BIG difference whether between you to kill assholes who invaded your country and fuck everything up and killing harmless people you're currently "liberating"..
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well it's a BIG difference whether between you to kill assholes who invaded your country and fuck everything up and killing harmless people you're currently "liberating"..
You know my stance on the iraq war, i agree with you. Im not defending what the marines did. All im saying is that it happens in war, and from both sides. Nothing more nothing less.
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If you are surprised about those things then you really dont kno shit about wars. When you are a soldier, and you are in the middle of a fight, you dont think "Wow, i'm here to help Iraqi! They are my friends...". You think "muthafuckaz i'mma kill y'all you sons of a bitch!". Cause you got trained and teached to hate. There's no "soldiers" if there's no hate. Hate is the key. In a war when your homie got shot in the head, and you see it, you are moved by the hate. You see an Iraqi and the first thing you wanna do is to kill him. No matter if he's strapped or not, no matter if he's innocent or not. Fuck it! You wanna kill him. This is how the war works. So stop being surprised about shit. Hate is the same thing who made them US soldiers torture Iraqi soldiers. Hate is the same thing who makes Iraqi kills innocents. And US soldiers kills innocents. Hate is the same thing who made them Israeli soldiers kill that unstrapped guy (it's famous, you know them pics?). Hate is the same thing who let UN soldiers (YES, UN soldiers) rape and kills a lot of WOMEN in Jugoslavia. YES, you've read it well. UN soldiers. RAPE AND KILL. For a soldier, there's no difference is he's fighting for a good cause or not. He's just fighting. Hating. Trying to survive. Trying to shoot first. US soldiers who went in Italy during the WWII to "save" us (read: to fight Nazi's and Fascist's) didnt even know why they were there. I mean there was been the D-DAY, they didnt need to "save" Italy no more. But still they were there. They died. They killed. Cause they soldiers. They had to do it. They were trained to do it. It's the same thing in Iraq. No matter if USA is right or not, soldiers are still there. FIGHTING. So please, give it up commenting on those shit. Like i said, it's a war. ALL THE WARS ARE WRONG.
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And hate is the cause of the terrorist attacks and the cause of a second Bush Presidency. The fact is, the problem isn't with the soldiers, so much as with the leadership who create an atmosphere of intolerance and put us in a situation where events like this one occur unnecessaryily. Its not the fact that this occured, its that it was unnecssary and avoidable. Abu Graib was entirely unavoidable, but poor leadership allowed it to exist.
The issue is that these actions, which are unnecesary, are weakening national security, weakening the american economy, and weakening our integrity in the eyes of the rest of the world. That is my issue, and while the US is not your country, it should be the issue on the minds of other americans.
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Hate is not a consequence of Bush's actions, and it's not the consequence of Saddam's actions. Hate is not the consequence of hate. Hate is inside all of us, since the Romans and the Egypts. Since we were monkeys. Hate is something who differentiate humans from animals. It's something we should face and deal with. When you are a soldier, you somehow are "allowed" to hate. You know what i mean? In the normal life, you dont want to kill other guys or torture them or beat them to death. Why? Cause you feel a voice inside of you who tells you not to hate. You think about the consequences (read: jail) or about your religion (read: sin) and you realize it's not something to do. You scared to do it. But when you a soldier and you are fighting a war, you can't hear that voice no more and there are no consequences if you do something bad. You feel the hate at his best. And you do atrocious things like this one. Like torturing people, like raping women. You loose your mind. You feel like God, doing whatever you want. So much that even if there's a camera, you think it's right to torture an Iraqi. Just cause he's an Iraqi. So much that even if there's a camera, you kill an unstrapped Iraqi. So much that you really belive you're doing "just your work". That's why the war is dangerous, and that's the proof that war is something who kills people's mind. When you really think that to kill other people is "just your job" you are fucked up. War is hate, remember that. Only love brings peace.
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^ That was the biggest pile of bullshit
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^ That was the biggest pile of bullshit
I agreee
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And hate is the cause of the terrorist attacks and the cause of a second Bush Presidency. The fact is, the problem isn't with the soldiers, so much as with the leadership who create an atmosphere of intolerance and put us in a situation where events like this one occur unnecessaryily. Its not the fact that this occured, its that it was unnecssary and avoidable. Abu Graib was entirely unavoidable, but poor leadership allowed it to exist.
The issue is that these actions, which are unnecesary, are weakening national security, weakening the american economy, and weakening our integrity in the eyes of the rest of the world. That is my issue, and while the US is not your country, it should be the issue on the minds of other americans.
why you think that soldiers aren't prone to commit crimes is beyond me, there are deviants in ANY job...priests molest little children, Muslim leaders support terrorism, chocolate factory workers end up being gay serial murdering cannibals...the thing that differentiates us and the scum that we are fight is that the criminals on our side will and have been punished for their actions by a jury of their peers, while the terrorists blowing up lines of civilians are seen as freedom fighters, the people cutting the heads off of old men and women that are rebuilding their country are seen as revolutionaries
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What kind of war has more casualties per day after the war ends than while its going on?
Look I'm glad you proudly serve your country, but don't bullshit me that just because you serve in the military you know it all. Anyone that blindly supports Bush loses their right to a credible opinion. I've come on here repeatedly and instead of just spouting personal opinions I've shown you reports, and analysis by republicans and independents. Meanwhile you, nor anyone else on this site, has ever been able to effectively argue against me. The reason you can't is because this time your side is wrong, and your position is completely indefensible.
Instead you have to look for ways to discredit the attacks. Richard Clarke is partisan. Michael Scheurer is simply disgruntled. McLaughlin is upset he didn't get to head the CIA. Nobel Laureates are all liberals. The economists don't know whet they are talking about.
The way you argue. The only people who are right are the people who side with Bush. Imagine if instead of trying to prove your side right you tried to simply find out what was the truth. Instead you come from a biased position, and your unwilling to change. I was willing to change my opinion for a long time, but not one ever countered the arguements leveled agaisnt Bush. Bush never countered them instead he just deflected, lied, and slandered his opposition.
Then you come on here talking like an ignorant asshole that is proud we are 'crushin'g the opposition. We aren't crushing the opposition. We are killing people. We are killing insurgents, and we killing innocent civilians. I don;t have to serve in iraq to tell you that is wrong. If you proudly stand up for the killing of tens of thousands of innocents, if you stand up for the execution of injured insurgents, and the torture of thousands more then fuck off prick no one is proud that you served and have ur medals.
I'm proud of the soldier that served their country respectfully and served for the good of their nation and the good of the world. My Father and both of my grandfathers served under the US military. Countlesss men and women have served this country respectfully. But don't tell me that some lil prick that talks about killing like its a football game deserves respect. Everytime I hear you run your motuh about how we are killing and tearin everyoen apart it makes me think that your not different than the guy mentioned in this article.
once again, this isn't your average war, what we are doing now can't even be compared to a war...war has a set of laws, you have uniforms...you know what you can and what you cannot attack. this is people that try to kill you one second and hide out in churchs and hospitals in the next second. why do you think there's so many civilian casualties? it's not as easy as saying "hey there's a military base, let's bomb it and see how many uniformed soldiers we can dig out" this is "ok we have to attack this church because sniper shots just kiled the 3 people in front of me...
and about me blindly supporting bush...where'd you get that from? the only reason i voted for bush is taht i knew it would piss people off, and it's worked greatly...do i think this war is right? no, but now taht we're in it i think it would be a great diservice, not only to the people that have given their lives, but also to the Iraqi people that want something better in their lives, just to pull out.
secondly, why would i have to argue with you about bush? you're the one with the problem of him being in office and the fact is you can post 10 million articles a day on why he shouldn't be there and he will still be the president...it all seems pretty useless, i have a better chance of arguing taht all grass should be purple
and finally, they are just numbers, if me or anyone else in here were to die tomorrow, no one on this board would honestly give a shit...you'd get a few r.i.p.'s and a few jokes in a thread taht will be forgotten in a few days...the only people that care about you would be your friends and families and 100 years from now, who will remember you? no one....what are you reduced to? a random grave stone and a statistic...at least if i were to die in this war, someday my name will be on a monument
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^ That was the biggest pile of bullshit
I knew you disagree with it. Different roots, different religion, different vision of the world. But let's stop dissing each others like kids, it's getting boring. That's MY point of view.
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Javier agreed with me, and he's not of the same religion as me; he's more likely to be of of the same one as you.... so don't bring that bullshit. In your view, all people are evil, want to release their anger, but won't since something inside tells them not to; soldiers on the other hand, are "allowed" to release that anger by raping people, torturing them, etc. First of all, do you really think that all soldiers do that shit? If not, then wouldn't that mean that only the ones that do are "evil"? Why generalize?
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This soldier wasn't "releasing anger". The solider made a mistake because he thought his life was in danger. This guy that was killed was not an innocent civilian praying in the mosque, he was a fighter who was attacking US soliders. Do you think it is easy for our guys to go from street to street and door to door with people shooting at you from every angle? This is a war and these young men have to be alert at all times for a possible attack on them. All it takes is one second and you are dead. As the news reports have said, the solider who shot this guy had already been shot once, and his unit had already had a a man killed after a booby trap went off on the dead body of some Iraqi insurgent. So they have to be prepared when approaching any so called injured or dead fighters. It was a mistake on his part, but in the heat of the battle should he take the chance that this guy might pull out a grenade or gun and kill him? If you watch the video you can see that he thinks he was in danger. It wasn't right but I am not going to condemn him because I might have done the same thing in his shoes.
It is also interesting that this thread has like 20 responses while the thread about the terrorists killing that female civialian charity worker only has two. But this is not suprising conidering the type of people that post here.
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CWalker, the guy could've said on camera "Hey, I'm killing these Muslims for fun", and your comment would still include "I would've done the same thing in his shoes", so cut the crap, you bigot.
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Javier agreed with me, and he's not of the same religion as me; he's more likely to be of of the same one as you.... so don't bring that bullshit. In your view, all people are evil, want to release their anger, but won't since something inside tells them not to; soldiers on the other hand, are "allowed" to release that anger by raping people, torturing them, etc. First of all, do you really think that all soldiers do that shit? If not, then wouldn't that mean that only the ones that do are "evil"? Why generalize?
No, hold on. I didnt say that all people are evil, but that evil is inside of us, since we are humans. If you wanna see it from a religious prospective, the only "thing" who can save us is God. If you wanna see it from a scientific prospective, there are tons of books who talks about it. Everybody, even the Pope, got something inside of him, which is negative. It's like that in every man. We gotta face it and fight it. Now, from thousands of books of criminology etc.. we know that the things who doesnt make you kills other people, usually, are various:
- the place where you live: if you live in a place where the guns are not toys, you dont think about killing people.
- the religion: if you grew up with religious roots and beliefs, you know that if you kill someone you go to Hell. It's a sin.
- the law: you know that if you kill someone, you go to jail.
- others.
When all those things collapses, you really start to think that "it's right" to kill. It's something complicated to understand, i know. You should read full books with 500-600 pages of explanations and examples. Anyway i didnt say "all the soldiers" are moved by hate. I didnt generalized. I'm saying that it's easy to loose the control of your mind in a war. Cause all those things (the place, the religion, the law, etc..) doesnt stop you no more. I'm saying to me it's not surprising that "normal" people, during a war, does atrocious things. I'm seeing it from a different prospective than you. For sure there are soldiers who believe they are doing the right thing. For sure there are "good" soldiers. But i was trying to let you know WHY those atrocious things happens in a war. Even from "normal" people.
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this marine is fucked...even if he tried to say that it was a mercy killing, the Geneva convention has a rule against shooting injured people. An officer got convicted of murder and derilection of duty last year for killing an injured man.
honestly though, that camera man is an asshole, i understand you got some dirty shit on tape and it's evidence of a crime, but he's putting more people's lives at danger just so his name can be in the limelight.
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this marine is fucked...even if he tried to say that it was a mercy killing, the Geneva convention has a rule against shooting injured people.
It wasn't a mercy killing. if you saw the video you would see that the Marine thought the guy was dangerous.
Why does this thread have 30 replies while the savage killing of a female charity worker only has 2?
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this marine is fucked...even if he tried to say that it was a mercy killing, the Geneva convention has a rule against shooting injured people.
It wasn't a mercy killing. if you saw the video you would see that the Marine thought the guy was dangerous.
Why does this thread have 30 replies while the savage killing of a female charity worker only has 2?
If the other thread had 30 replies, then the soldier and the terrorist would be on the same level as far as morals go. Personally, I see it the same way you do, the U.S. soldiers are just as horrible as those terrorists. :)
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There's a big difference. I agree, both the things are brutal and wrong: the death of an injured man, and the death of an innocent man. But you cant say soldiers and terrorists are doing the same things. There's a big big difference between them, man. A soldier is fighting a war against other "soldiers". I agree it's a wrong war, but it's a war. A terrorist is fighting who? How? By killing innocent people and the Iraqi citizen in "the name of Allah"? It's a very big difference. Both the things are wrong, i repeat. But terrorists are even worse, cause they are doing it "for Allah". That's the most dangerous thing. Allah has nothing to do with it. There's no reason to scream Allah, to thank Allah or to kill for Allah. It aint no Jihad. That's pure bullshit. Exactly like the reason Bush gave us: "we're fighting to have a free Iraq". Both are lies. But the terrorists are killing innocent people by purpose. It's their only reason and target: to kill innocent people. They did in with the Twin Towers, they did it with that disco in Bali, they did it in Turkey by bombing a Jewish church, they did it in Madrid, they did it by killing italian Carabinieri's, they did it by bombing Red Cross and UN, they do it everytime they kill innocents. I cant accept it.
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There's a big difference. I agree, both the things are brutal and wrong: the death of an injured man, and the death of an innocent man. But you cant say soldiers and terrorists are doing the same things. There's a big big difference between them, man. A soldier is fighting a war against other "soldiers". I agree it's a wrong war, but it's a war. A terrorist is fighting who? How? By killing innocent people and the Iraqi citizen in "the name of Allah"? It's a very big difference. Both the things are wrong, i repeat. But terrorists are even worse, cause they are doing it "for Allah". That's the most dangerous thing. Allah has nothing to do with it. There's no reason to scream Allah, to thank Allah or to kill for Allah. It aint no Jihad. That's pure bullshit. Exactly like the reason Bush gave us: "we're fighting to have a free Iraq". Both are lies. But the terrorists are killing innocent people by purpose. It's their only reason and target: to kill innocent people. They did in with the Twin Towers, they did it with that disco in Bali, they did it in Turkey by bombing a Jewish church, they did it in Madrid, they did it by killing italian Carabinieri's, they did it by bombing Red Cross and UN, they do it everytime they kill innocents. I cant accept it.
Listen up... most of our enemies in Iraq aren't terrorists, they're Iraqi citizens fighting what they see as an oppression, a colonization, etc. They didn't come here and kill our citizens, we went there. I'm not defending terrorism, but when it comes to the war on Iraq, I can't say that the Iraqi insurgents are at fault. Terrorists kill innocent people because they think that maybe the leaders of the countries those innocent people are from will get the off their land, out of their country. Obviously it's dumb for them to think that because it's evident that our government has no regard for human lives when it comes to taking over countries and benefitting financially.
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lol are you really that impressed that we are winning a war against a tiny militia? no one expected us to lose in Iraq, but no one expected us to do as badly as we are doing.
Did you forget, your leader declared the war over more than a year ago now? lol how do you seriously sit around and justify all this nonsense to youself? It makes no sense. The war was declared over a year ago, and more people are still continuing to die. We didn't route 2000 insurgents in fallujah. The insurgents all left, thats why new fighting is breaking out all over iraq this week.
I don't doubt that we will win the war in Iraq? But who the hell is the war even against? It was supposed to be against saddam. He is gone now. Then we were there to liberate iraq. Now we are there to beat iraq?
This isn't baseball asshole. When the score is 35-1000 that isn't points. That is dead bodies. Do you realize this? Because you talk about war like its a game.
So when the mission is accomplished and we finally beat Iraq then what? How do we deal with the rest of the terrorist threat? Al-Queda exists in 60 countries, and they are just ONE terrorist group, there are plenty more. Granted Al-Queda is the biggest, but we are having a tough time with a shitty little insurgency in Iraq. I'm looking forward to the day you go over there. Then you will realize how childish you've been all this time, when u see bullets flying by you and then they hit you and you realize, its not Halo. You don't go run, and grab the health pack, and rejoin the battle. You sit there and die or wake up in a hosipital in pain for weeks.
1. tiny militia? 2000 dead, 1000 captured in fallujah and you consider this tiny? this happens to be the only people we happened to kill and capture...there could be numbers more. it's harder to fight a war against people that look like civilians than it is against a country's army that all have the same uniform... a person in iraq can ride his bike, drop off a IED, kill 8 people and then be off to work....i don't expect you to comprehend this because all you do is sit behind your computer reading articles.
2. if you want to be technical...the war was already over, it was declared over almost a year ago...right now we're just providing security...so while sadaam is gone, there's always the need for security
3. i've already been in one warzone, i've got medals for it. i've done charity and security work in countries where we had to have a group of marines watch us while we try to rebuild schools,and got medals for that. Now i'm training to be in a combat unit that's headed to iraq in jan.... don't sit behind your computer and preach to me what might happen to me, i'm well aware of all this and more. if anyone has a right to talk and debate on this subject it's me, because while all you guys make up reasons on how this situation effects your life, it REALLY effects my life
Good luck with Iraq! I probably won't end up there since I am already "deployed" at Incirlik AB. Its easy for the Europeans (except the Italians, Polish, and some other small countries there) to point the finger when they have done nothing to reslove it any other way. There is a large amount of stress that goes along with war so I will not judge this marine all I saw was the 30 second clip.
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Listen up... most of our enemies in Iraq aren't terrorists, they're Iraqi citizens fighting what they see as an oppression, a colonization, etc. They didn't come here and kill our citizens, we went there.
I know. I was talking about terrorists cause you said: "Personally, I see it the same way you do, the U.S. soldiers are just as horrible as those terrorists". Not cause i think all the people in Iraq are terrorists. I've never said that. Let's talk about terrorism. They actually went in the USA to kill their citizens. They went to Turkey to kill their citizens. They went to Spain to kill their citizens. They went to Bali to kill their citizens. Etc.. People from all over the world who had nothing to do with Americans, and nothing to do with the war. That's why i'm saying they have no excuses for what they did. You are talking about resistence, and that's a totally different thing. So maybe you wrote it wrong? Maybe you meant "Personally, I see it the same way you do, the U.S. soldiers are just as horrible as those PEOPLE FROM THE RESISTENCE?".
I'm not defending terrorism, but when it comes to the war on Iraq, I can't say that the Iraqi insurgents are at fault. Terrorists kill innocent people because they think that maybe the leaders of the countries those innocent people are from will get the off their land, out of their country. Obviously it's dumb for them to think that because it's evident that our government has no regard for human lives when it comes to taking over countries and benefitting financially.
So how do you explain terrorists killing Turkish people? Killing youngs in a disco in Bali? Killing people in the Twin Towers BEFORE the two wars? Killing students in Spain? Did Turkey, Spain, Italy, Bali etc.. take a benefitting financially from something? Man terrorism is wrong. Period.
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^ so how do you explain us going into their country and blowing up inncoent civilians. is your excuse "Whoops, the bomb didnt hit the right target!" From what ive read we have killed over 100,000 innocent. they (as in terrorists not innocent) killed what 3500 of us during the attack on the towers? I by no means support terrorism but i think this "war in iraq" is bullshit.
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^ so how do you explain us going into their country and blowing up inncoent civilians. is your excuse "Whoops, the bomb didnt hit the right target!" From what ive read we have killed over 100,000 innocent. they (as in terrorists not innocent) killed what 3500 of us during the attack on the towers? I by no means support terrorism but i think this "war in iraq" is bullshit.
1- I'm Italian, i can explain what Italians are doing in Iraq. And it's different from what US soldiers are doing.
2- I wrote maybe 10 times in this topic i dont support the war and i think it's wrong.
When i say i dont support terrorism and that terrorism is wrong, i'm not automatically supporting any war. Get it straight.
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^ so how do you explain us going into their country and blowing up inncoent civilians. is your excuse "Whoops, the bomb didnt hit the right target!" From what ive read we have killed over 100,000 innocent. they (as in terrorists not innocent) killed what 3500 of us during the attack on the towers? I by no means support terrorism but i think this "war in iraq" is bullshit.
it is bullshit but since it's happening, we might as well try to get some good done, those insurgents are destroying everything and anything they want to....i know they want america to look bad and get out but they are the leading cause of the 100,000 civilian deaths. after the war was declared over, that should have ended the majority of the violence, there would be no more need for large US forces, bombing runs and all that, we would have just rebuilt and got out... now not only are they killing their people, they're causing us to kill their people and the US is going to do the same thing they planned on doing
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Makavelli thats like saying Americans shouldnt get caught for the things they do wrong!.....ummm u guys mess up so much its gonna get caught once in a while, no wonder americans are the most hated as it is. and really Ur winning the war but ur still fighting these little iraqi rebels and its not even close to an end. its still kinda sad in my eyes.
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I would have shot that man too. Insurgents had been faking death in mosques and then blowing themselves up. The marine that had shot that man had been injured a few hours earlier by one of those insurgents.
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^ so how do you explain us going into their country and blowing up inncoent civilians. is your excuse "Whoops, the bomb didnt hit the right target!" From what ive read we have killed over 100,000 innocent. they (as in terrorists not innocent) killed what 3500 of us during the attack on the towers? I by no means support terrorism but i think this "war in iraq" is bullshit.
it is bullshit but since it's happening, we might as well try to get some good done, those insurgents are destroying everything and anything they want to....i know they want america to look bad and get out but they are the leading cause of the 100,000 civilian deaths. after the war was declared over, that should have ended the majority of the violence, there would be no more need for large US forces, bombing runs and all that, we would have just rebuilt and got out... now not only are they killing their people, they're causing us to kill their people and the US is going to do the same thing they planned on doing
The insurgency exists for a number of reasons, not all are America's fault, but some are. Its not just a bunch of people who are there to fuck up there country. The initial formation of the Al Sadr insurgency was the result of a US decision to close down a newspaper that was printing negative stories about the U.S. Al Sadr, saw this as a form of oppression, and denial of freedom of speech, and formed a militia that really was the start of a majory insurgency. Before that decision the insurgency was relatively small. After losing his voice when his newspaper was closed down, the insurgency was formed.
Now there is another major reason for the Iraqi insurgency, and that is Halliburton. Basically, when we went in and blew up all the buildings, we gave Halliburton contracts to rebuild Iraq. This angered a lot of iraqis who say an American firm profiting from the destruction of their country, while they were out of work. I supported the war initially saying that if GWB truly liberated iraq, and proved to the muslim world we were there 1) to fight terrorism 2) to spread prosperity then even if there were no WMD the was in iraq would not have been such a bad thing. Obviously now, this is not the case. We neither found WMD, nor proved to the Muslim world that the US was truly intending to spread prosperity. Instead we made them believe exactly the opposite. In many ways we confirmed there worst fears: that the US is an imperialistic power that came to Iraq looking for profits and power. Now it is still debatable whether this is entirely true, but when your dealing with a group of people who are already skeptical of your actions, and you get caught running a tortute prison, then you give away all the reconstruction profits to American firms, and you install, what many iraqis see, as a puppet government you tend to rub them the wrong way.
So, Halliburton played a large part in inciting the insurgency. The iraqis saw foreign workers and foreign corporations profiting from the destruction of their cities, and it confirmed their belief that the US was not here to liberate, and spread prosperity, but instead to occupy and steal from their nation.
So yeah, there are probably other reasons for the insurgency, for example some of these people just want power, or just hate the US. That may be the reason why some of the insurgent leaders are fighting, but the insurgent leaders need followers, and their followers exist due to the reasons explained above.
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i know what you're saying ant and i agree with the freedom of speech one but honestly, do you think that since an american company got the contract to rebuild these people's home is the reason they are going out and killing their own people lining up for jobs?
just doesn't make sense
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well i see that as part of the reason why things are what they are. i'm sure some of what happens is just based on hate and anger, but i believe some iraqis see the people lining up for jobs as traitors.
you know initially, dick cheney said, halliburton recieved the contracts because they were best equipped for the job. When i first heard that, I actually thought it made sense, and in some ways it does. Halliburton, technically, is the probably more efficient at reconstruction than the iraqis would be themselves. But I ended up thinking it was a mistake to give Halliburton the job, because had we given contracts to iraqi firms for reconstruction it would have a) employed a lot of people b) given the iraqis the opportunity develop skill sets c) in some ways lower costs because reconstruction would not be disrupted as much if iraqi firms were doing the work.
i think when they see iraqis working with the americans they seem them as traitors because the majority of the work is being done by american firms, and if work is being done by an iraqi he isn't the business owner, he is just an employee most likely of an american firm. they see the same thing with the iraqi police and iraqi military. they are paid to fight other iraqis, many people see them as traitors, because to a lot of people the reason for the resistance makes sense. to the avg. iraqi right now, we look like imperialists. we tortured people, we killed civilians, we gave all the reconstruction money to us firms, etc. regardless of our intentions, sometimes perceptions are reality and they percieve us as being assholes. so to the avg. iraqi, the insurgents dont seem as evil as they seem to us. the insurgents aren't killing civilians, they are killing foreigners and people they view as traitors.
overall, if the reconstruction for iraq was conducted by iraqis i think it would have greatly benefited iraqi interests and US interests. the avg. iraqi would be more upset with the insurgents, and less tolerant of them had we given them an opportunity to earn a decent wage, and helped them grow their economy. instead their economy has progressively declined for example take this latest bit of news:
"Since the March 2003 invasion, malnutrition among children between the ages of 6 months and 5 years has grown from 4 percent to 7.7 percent, said Jon Pedersen, deputy managing director of the Oslo, Norway-based Fafo Institute for Applied Social Science, which conducted the survey." -AP
I supported the iraq war, because i thought if we went in, found wmd, and brought prosperity to iraq, the muslim world would be less inclined to support terrorism. they would look up to the US, and believe we are a country with integrity and it would make the terrorists seem like assholes. Instead the decisions we made almost garaunteed we would not bring prosperity to iraq and in the end, we lost the support of the iraqi people, the international community, and we gave skeptical muslims a reason to believe their skepticism was not misguided.
.. sorry for the lengthy post, i have a tendency to be wordy, and im too lazy to edit.