West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Sports & Entertainment => Topic started by: Don Jacob on June 14, 2009, 09:13:14 PM
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kobe is the best player in the game....AND you can put him up there with jordan...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm band wagon jumper.
this ring doesn't change kobe's place in history IMO, but it definitely still puts him over lebron. i think if kobe wins 2 more he's over magic, wins 3 more he's over jordan no doubt. but he's still 3rd amongst all time guards, second amongst shooting guards.
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Let's enjoy this bro..
The LeBron talk is for the ages to speak on.
Kobe is already accomplished James is on his way.
Bryant will pass dude the torch!!
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barrys a bitch homeboy
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kobe is the best player in the game....AND you can put him up there with jordan...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm band wagon jumper.
this ring doesn't change kobe's place in history IMO, but it definitely still puts him over lebron. i think if kobe wins 2 more he's over magic, wins 3 more he's over jordan no doubt. but he's still 3rd amongst all time guards, second amongst shooting guards.
I dont see him ever surpassing Jordan. Maybe if he got like 5 more rings lol. But ring counts alone wont put him ahead of Jordan. Bottom line, he will never be viewed on Jordans level. Magic, MAYBE. But Magic will be a tough guy to surpass when it comes to all time Lakers. He was that ultimate leader at a time when the Lakers were the most exciting, and best team in the league.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
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One more puts him in the top 5 all time, only Russell, Wilt, MJ and Magic I think off hand being better, and I think Kobe is over Wilt and one more gets him over Russell. Magic will be hard, because that's a different type of player, Magic made his greatness off leadership, he can dominate a game and not score a point. MJ is who Kobe is chasing, and he'd need 3 more to be over MJ. Those two have one measuring stick, and that's ring. We can argue for days, our arguments don't count. Kobe and MJ see rings and hard evidence. We can talk all we want, they know.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
Word! But Kobe being in his 6th finals will defo hold some weight later in time. (Including 4 Champs)
I hate these types of threads, because obviously Jordan was walking on water in his prime.
But having the privilege to watch Kobe do his thing every game, I must say. Bryant is as good.
and being in his early 30's, There is always room for more.
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I wish I could hear MJ's opinion on this comparison.
anyone have any video of it?
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i see where someone could include the intangibles about jordan , he generated billions into the economy, but i think 3 champiionships (7) CAN put him over jordan....let's face it, kobe is just as good as jordan offensively , that has ALWAYS been the case. defensively you can make the argument, both have the same tendancies to suffocate or collapse on the perimeter. but the intangibles and wins...is what will separate them.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
My dude MDogg... I'm the lazy version of you bro...lol
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i see where someone could include the intangibles about jordan , he generated billions into the economy, but i think 3 champiionships (7) CAN put him over jordan....let's face it, kobe is just as good as jordan offensively , that has ALWAYS been the case. defensively you can make the argument, both have the same tendancies to suffocate or collapse on the perimeter. but the intangibles and wins...is what will separate them.
Jordan was definetely a better defender, cant really argue for Kobe on that. And the intangibles are not limited to Jordans effect on the economy lol The respect he had around the league/world. Also the fact that Jordan on the court was nothing less then awe-inspiring. Fans and opponents were in awe of Jordan. Kobe doesnt inspire that same kind of reaction. Kobe losing in the finals twice doesnt help. With Jordan, you always had the feeling he would win...that he wouldnt allow himself to lose (once in his prime). Kobe lost two finals in his prime. A very good Celtics team but Kobe had a very good Laker team that simply got crushed. Allso a Pistons team that was not unstoppable as the Spurs beat the exact same team the following year. I dont think its impossible for a player to ever pass Jordan, but Kobe cant be that guy. It just wont happen. Its going to take someone who isnt fighting for his place in history towards the end of his career. It will have to be someone who looks to be the best ever, halfway through it.
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Lol John Barry's an idiot. Not saying I don't think there's some credibility in his statement but this is the same guy that said Kobe was gonna tear apart the Lakers chemistry as soon as things went wrong and doubted that he would contend for another title. Next year if the Lakers don't do well in the regular season he'll probably consider this win a fluke lol.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport. In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football. The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods. At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over. There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far. Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport. In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football. The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods. At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over. There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far. Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.
Lets just say this, the marking behind Jordan was that we called him the greatest without him proving it. Many basketball insiders were deferring to other players. If our lasting memory of Jordan was this
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TCdErEO7OCM/SaFi5D4RD8I/AAAAAAAABHs/NV9C3mk9PpU/s400/Jordan%2520baseball.jpg)
Jordan doesn't go out the GOAT, we don't have two 3 peats to talk about and all is what ifs. BUT Jordan did comeback, and it's leaving the game like this
(http://www.kicksonfire.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/air-jordan-14-xiv-original-og-final-last-shot-black-black-varsity-red-10.jpg)
It's picture perfect, we get everyone saying his the greatest of all time and you can't argue it because it's perfect.
The reason Michael was called the greatest because we knew he can win titles at will, we knew that barring a horrible knee injury, he'd get more titles than Magic, Bird and everyone else, you can argue that minus the baseball deal he'd have almost as many as Bill Russell and we can live with that argument, so we called Jordan the greatest. What cemented his legacy was the 1995-1996 season. 72 wins, breaking the Laker's record, and winning the NBA title for the 4th time. That's when it became clear Michael Jordan was the best player to ever play. Before that, he was the best of the era, one of the greatest, but not the greatest, but in 1996, that was the proof people needed, MJ is the GOAT. He was 33 years old at that time.
Kobe is 30 now, and no one has seen a player like him since Jordan. His only problem, he followed Jordan, we even have video of a young Kobe vs. Jordan. LMAO at Shaq saving Kobe from a huge embarrassment with the goal tend.
http://www.youtube.com/v/HvJywRV9P0w&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b
So it's harder to say Kobe>Jordan. But like Ali, Kobe will have to prove it. But as I said, he win 3 more titles, beat Lebron and retires on top, he'll prove something. IF Kobe wins 2 more titles, but then loses to Lebron, people will say the torch is passed, and Kobe's role will be great player that Lebron beat for his legacy, and Kobe goes in with Magic, West, Russell, Wilt and all the other over who is second best.
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i see where someone could include the intangibles about jordan , he generated billions into the economy, but i think 3 champiionships (7) CAN put him over jordan....let's face it, kobe is just as good as jordan offensively , that has ALWAYS been the case. defensively you can make the argument, both have the same tendancies to suffocate or collapse on the perimeter. but the intangibles and wins...is what will separate them.
Jordan didn't even have to work that hard defensively, cuz Pippen was the teams defensive-stopper...he was assigned the opposing teams best player every single time. Pippen was THE best perimeter defender in the league at that time, and Jordan would typically be his help on D. We've seen Kobe when he plays lock down D, and he can shut down ANYONE on the perimeter.
Kobe=GOAT...theres nothing that Jordan coulda done that Kobe cant. The biggest difference in their skillset is that Kobe has more range and a better jumpshot...thats the biggest difference. we can argue all day about this, but when Kobe wins his next 3, yall will see what's really real. 8)
....and when Jon Barry is praising Kobe and the Lakers, you KNOW that shit must be real talk. LOL
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i see where someone could include the intangibles about jordan , he generated billions into the economy, but i think 3 champiionships (7) CAN put him over jordan....let's face it, kobe is just as good as jordan offensively , that has ALWAYS been the case. defensively you can make the argument, both have the same tendancies to suffocate or collapse on the perimeter. but the intangibles and wins...is what will separate them.
Jordan was definetely a better defender, cant really argue for Kobe on that. And the intangibles are not limited to Jordans effect on the economy lol The respect he had around the league/world. Also the fact that Jordan on the court was nothing less then awe-inspiring. Fans and opponents were in awe of Jordan. Kobe doesnt inspire that same kind of reaction. Kobe losing in the finals twice doesnt help. With Jordan, you always had the feeling he would win...that he wouldnt allow himself to lose (once in his prime). Kobe lost two finals in his prime. A very good Celtics team but Kobe had a very good Laker team that simply got crushed. Allso a Pistons team that was not unstoppable as the Spurs beat the exact same team the following year. I dont think its impossible for a player to ever pass Jordan, but Kobe cant be that guy. It just wont happen. Its going to take someone who isnt fighting for his place in history towards the end of his career. It will have to be someone who looks to be the best ever, halfway through it.
LOL...again. Jordan was not defensively assigned the toughest player on the opposing team ala Kobe, because he had Pippen as a top-notch defender to defend alongside. when he exerts himself, there is nothing Kobe cant do on D that Jordan can. come on, now.
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Jordan on the court was nothing less then awe-inspiring. Fans and opponents were in awe of Jordan. Kobe doesnt inspire that same kind of reaction.
LOLLLL...greatest hater quote of all time.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport. In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football. The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods. At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over. There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far. Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.
it's a situational thing, buddy...you act like marketing had nothing to do with Jordan's God-like status while he was playing. LOL.the fact that Jordan got to be in the shoes he was in doesnt mean he was a better player SKILLWISE. I believe Kobe placed in Jordan's shoes woulda won 8 straight, considering he woulda never retired for baseball after the first threepeat.
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VVVVVVVVV
Jordan on the court was nothing less then awe-inspiring. Fans and opponents were in awe of Jordan. Kobe doesnt inspire that same kind of reaction.
LOLLLL...greatest hater quote of all time.
Then why did you say it? ;D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/E4sQfSbPU1o
barry can eat a dick though
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
on point
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/E4sQfSbPU1o
simply amazing
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lol, why do rings count for so much if his team is stacked? plus, how does it determine how good you are on an all-time scale?
if they win next year would you seriously throw Derek Fisher in discussions for one of the greatest point gaurds ever?
would Pau be right up their with Shaq? ???
would Bynum be better than Dwight? ???
give CP3 the Lakers squad minus Kobe & he would win, give LeBron them, he would win.
Robert Horry >>> Karl Malone? ???
i bring up this argument all the time & it's blantantly ignored because you guys really want to believe that the total amount of rings you have determines how good of a basketball player you are.
it's a team game until you talk about whose the best; Kobe has his chance to do it alone, he barely won 40 games.
no doubt it's a great team, no doubt Kobe could be the best player in the game & one of the best all time.
but to say he could be the best ever if he wins one or two more on an amazing team is crazy.
point is, it's really funny how Bill Russel's 11 rings doesn't automatically make him the best ever (according to these standards), but Kobe winning one more (5) automatically makes him the best ever lol.
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This whole greatest ever thing is so stupid. You can't compare eras, and every era has a "is he the best ever?" guy in every sport. The true test comes years later when that player still gets mentioned. But even then, different time, different training, different styles; they don't match up. Who would Tiger Woods be if Nicklaus never existed? Would a young Jack be able to beat a current Tiger time and again in today's game? Would Tiger of today be able to play in the 60s with the old clubs? What kind of player would Kobe or Jordan have been in the 50s when most moves weren't around yet to learn on the ball court? Rod Laver may not be able to match up with Federer on grass today, but how would Federer do with one of those heavy clunky rackets weighing him down, and those old style running shoes and no specialized training? The whole argument is a big joke. How can anyone ever prove that Ali would be able to beat Louis, or Klitchko?
You can argue who the best of their time was and you can see who gets remembered, but you can only do that when enough time has passed to call it remembering. And even then it doesn't mean shit. No one remembers Ty Cobb like they should, for political reasons. If he was a nice guy he may have been bigger than the Babe in today's sports pages. The MLB certainly thought he was better when they gave him more votes in the first ever HOF for Baseball.
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
'cause you have sense and most people don't. it is what it is.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport. In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football. The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods. At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over. There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far. Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.
Lets just say this, the marking behind Jordan was that we called him the greatest without him proving it. Many basketball insiders were deferring to other players. If our lasting memory of Jordan was this
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TCdErEO7OCM/SaFi5D4RD8I/AAAAAAAABHs/NV9C3mk9PpU/s400/Jordan%2520baseball.jpg)
Jordan doesn't go out the GOAT, we don't have two 3 peats to talk about and all is what ifs. BUT Jordan did comeback, and it's leaving the game like this
(http://www.kicksonfire.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/air-jordan-14-xiv-original-og-final-last-shot-black-black-varsity-red-10.jpg)
It's picture perfect, we get everyone saying his the greatest of all time and you can't argue it because it's perfect.
The reason Michael was called the greatest because we knew he can win titles at will, we knew that barring a horrible knee injury, he'd get more titles than Magic, Bird and everyone else, you can argue that minus the baseball deal he'd have almost as many as Bill Russell and we can live with that argument, so we called Jordan the greatest. What cemented his legacy was the 1995-1996 season. 72 wins, breaking the Laker's record, and winning the NBA title for the 4th time. That's when it became clear Michael Jordan was the best player to ever play. Before that, he was the best of the era, one of the greatest, but not the greatest, but in 1996, that was the proof people needed, MJ is the GOAT. He was 33 years old at that time.
Kobe is 30 now, and no one has seen a player like him since Jordan. His only problem, he followed Jordan, we even have video of a young Kobe vs. Jordan. LMAO at Shaq saving Kobe from a huge embarrassment with the goal tend.
http://www.youtube.com/v/HvJywRV9P0w&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b
So it's harder to say Kobe>Jordan. But like Ali, Kobe will have to prove it. But as I said, he win 3 more titles, beat Lebron and retires on top, he'll prove something. IF Kobe wins 2 more titles, but then loses to Lebron, people will say the torch is passed, and Kobe's role will be great player that Lebron beat for his legacy, and Kobe goes in with Magic, West, Russell, Wilt and all the other over who is second best.
So I was listening to AM 570 (official Laker station, so NIK dont call them haters lol) earlier tonight, and they were going over the greatest players of all time. They read a top ten published by (cant remember who exactly), that gave the top 1,000 NBA players all time. Jordan was number 1, of course. Kareem number 2, cant remember everyone else on the list. But Duncan was 8, Shaq was 9.....and Kobe was....well, lets just say, not in the top 10. I believe he was at 13. Not much argument against that coming from the Laker station lol. In fact, it seems like most of the top 10 lists out there (you gotta be careful cus some are just random idiots giving their opinion) dont have Kobe in the top 10 all time. Out of active players, only Duncan and Shaq are regulars in most of the top ten lists out there. Now Im not saying Kobe isnt a top 10 player, when its all said and done I think he will be. Just interesting that it seems most people dont think he is as of now. And we have people on here saying he's better then Jordan lol. Good shit guys, keep the comedy rolling...
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Tim Legler has said if Jordan never took that break he would have won 8 with the Bulls.
but John's opinon > Tim's right? :laugh:
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
thats a lie. You'll argue for Manning over Brady till the death...
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
thats a lie. You'll argue for Manning over Brady till the death...
Of course I will because they play at the same time. I never said I don't take debating sports too seriously. I take it very seriously. I just don't take cross-era debates too seriously. Like Manning vs Montana. Different eras different environments, and different groundwork to build off of. I think Manning is head and shoulders above Brady because their careers are parallel with each other and Manning showed me twice the talent with half the team (defense, coaches, o-line etc.). I don't think The Colts would have gone 5-11 with out Manning this year, much less 11-5. Why'd you have to go and get me started? If you really want to go through ths again just start another thread. I don't want to pollute this one.
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
thats a lie. You'll argue for Manning over Brady till the death...
Of course I will because they play at the same time. I never said I don't take debating sports too seriously. I take it very seriously. I just don't take cross-era debates too seriously. Like Manning vs Montana. Different eras different environments, and different groundwork to build off of. I think Manning is head and shoulders above Brady because their careers are parallel with each other and Manning showed me twice the talent with half the team (defense, coaches, o-line etc.). I don't think The Colts would have gone 5-11 with out Manning this year, much less 11-5. Why'd you have to go and get me started? If you really want to go through ths again just start another thread. I don't want to pollute this one.
LOL@ Bad coaching
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
thats a lie. You'll argue for Manning over Brady till the death...
Of course I will because they play at the same time. I never said I don't take debating sports too seriously. I take it very seriously. I just don't take cross-era debates too seriously. Like Manning vs Montana. Different eras different environments, and different groundwork to build off of. I think Manning is head and shoulders above Brady because their careers are parallel with each other and Manning showed me twice the talent with half the team (defense, coaches, o-line etc.). I don't think The Colts would have gone 5-11 with out Manning this year, much less 11-5. Why'd you have to go and get me started? If you really want to go through ths again just start another thread. I don't want to pollute this one.
LOL@ Bad coaching
LOL@confusing coaching with a Dungy vs Bellichick debate. Dungy is great, but career vs career the Pats had a much better line up of coaches (all coaches, not just head coaches) than the Colts. It's not even close. Moore wasa run of the mill OC in Pit for 7 years. Then more mediocrity with the Viks in the early 90s. He did ok with Detroit but Barry was there. And on D, you going to compare Ron Meeks to Crennel? Good luck. Just face it. That amazing team went 11-5 with that bitch Brady on the beach.
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haha for real muffuccaz hoppin on the wagon like its nuthin
if kobe would have lost, he and others would have said different shit
FUCK THA NBA
kobe is the best player in the game....AND you can put him up there with jordan...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm band wagon jumper.
this ring doesn't change kobe's place in history IMO, but it definitely still puts him over lebron. i think if kobe wins 2 more he's over magic, wins 3 more he's over jordan no doubt. but he's still 3rd amongst all time guards, second amongst shooting guards.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport. In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football. The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods. At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over. There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far. Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.
Lets just say this, the marking behind Jordan was that we called him the greatest without him proving it. Many basketball insiders were deferring to other players. If our lasting memory of Jordan was this
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TCdErEO7OCM/SaFi5D4RD8I/AAAAAAAABHs/NV9C3mk9PpU/s400/Jordan%2520baseball.jpg)
Jordan doesn't go out the GOAT, we don't have two 3 peats to talk about and all is what ifs. BUT Jordan did comeback, and it's leaving the game like this
(http://www.kicksonfire.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/air-jordan-14-xiv-original-og-final-last-shot-black-black-varsity-red-10.jpg)
It's picture perfect, we get everyone saying his the greatest of all time and you can't argue it because it's perfect.
The reason Michael was called the greatest because we knew he can win titles at will, we knew that barring a horrible knee injury, he'd get more titles than Magic, Bird and everyone else, you can argue that minus the baseball deal he'd have almost as many as Bill Russell and we can live with that argument, so we called Jordan the greatest. What cemented his legacy was the 1995-1996 season. 72 wins, breaking the Laker's record, and winning the NBA title for the 4th time. That's when it became clear Michael Jordan was the best player to ever play. Before that, he was the best of the era, one of the greatest, but not the greatest, but in 1996, that was the proof people needed, MJ is the GOAT. He was 33 years old at that time.
Kobe is 30 now, and no one has seen a player like him since Jordan. His only problem, he followed Jordan, we even have video of a young Kobe vs. Jordan. LMAO at Shaq saving Kobe from a huge embarrassment with the goal tend.
http://www.youtube.com/v/HvJywRV9P0w&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b
So it's harder to say Kobe>Jordan. But like Ali, Kobe will have to prove it. But as I said, he win 3 more titles, beat Lebron and retires on top, he'll prove something. IF Kobe wins 2 more titles, but then loses to Lebron, people will say the torch is passed, and Kobe's role will be great player that Lebron beat for his legacy, and Kobe goes in with Magic, West, Russell, Wilt and all the other over who is second best.
So I was listening to AM 570 (official Laker station, so NIK dont call them haters lol) earlier tonight, and they were going over the greatest players of all time. They read a top ten published by (cant remember who exactly), that gave the top 1,000 NBA players all time. Jordan was number 1, of course. Kareem number 2, cant remember everyone else on the list. But Duncan was 8, Shaq was 9.....and Kobe was....well, lets just say, not in the top 10. I believe he was at 13. Not much argument against that coming from the Laker station lol. In fact, it seems like most of the top 10 lists out there (you gotta be careful cus some are just random idiots giving their opinion) dont have Kobe in the top 10 all time. Out of active players, only Duncan and Shaq are regulars in most of the top ten lists out there. Now Im not saying Kobe isnt a top 10 player, when its all said and done I think he will be. Just interesting that it seems most people dont think he is as of now. And we have people on here saying he's better then Jordan lol. Good shit guys, keep the comedy rolling...
KLAC is a Laker station, but they're known to hire Laker haters to balance it out and make sure peeps don't see it as a homer station...if u listen, u know this. not saying the list was a hater list, but you cant put someone on top of a list before their career is over, regardless. Jordan, as of now, is the GOAT CAREERWISE...but as far as skill and talent goes, theres nothing Jordan coulda done that Kobe cant...end of story...PeACe
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Sorry NIK but that's where you're wrong. Jordan had the skill and talent to keep ugly white girls' mouths shut.
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Jordan is the man, straight up. And everyone knows if he didnt retire he would have 8-9 rings plus more scoring titles. His retirement kinda fucked with his acheivements, even tho dude has more records than anyone , anways...
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Tim Legler has said if Jordan never took that break he would have won 8 with the Bulls.
that´s probably true and had he won 8 rings there wouldn´t have been much of an argument. but it´s hard to say who´s the best, but there´s no room for discussion when you talk about who´s had the biggest impact on every aspect of the game.... Kobe wiill NEVER have the same iconic status as Mike.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport. In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football. The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods. At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over. There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far. Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.
Lets just say this, the marking behind Jordan was that we called him the greatest without him proving it. Many basketball insiders were deferring to other players. If our lasting memory of Jordan was this
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TCdErEO7OCM/SaFi5D4RD8I/AAAAAAAABHs/NV9C3mk9PpU/s400/Jordan%2520baseball.jpg)
Jordan doesn't go out the GOAT, we don't have two 3 peats to talk about and all is what ifs. BUT Jordan did comeback, and it's leaving the game like this
(http://www.kicksonfire.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/air-jordan-14-xiv-original-og-final-last-shot-black-black-varsity-red-10.jpg)
It's picture perfect, we get everyone saying his the greatest of all time and you can't argue it because it's perfect.
The reason Michael was called the greatest because we knew he can win titles at will, we knew that barring a horrible knee injury, he'd get more titles than Magic, Bird and everyone else, you can argue that minus the baseball deal he'd have almost as many as Bill Russell and we can live with that argument, so we called Jordan the greatest. What cemented his legacy was the 1995-1996 season. 72 wins, breaking the Laker's record, and winning the NBA title for the 4th time. That's when it became clear Michael Jordan was the best player to ever play. Before that, he was the best of the era, one of the greatest, but not the greatest, but in 1996, that was the proof people needed, MJ is the GOAT. He was 33 years old at that time.
Kobe is 30 now, and no one has seen a player like him since Jordan. His only problem, he followed Jordan, we even have video of a young Kobe vs. Jordan. LMAO at Shaq saving Kobe from a huge embarrassment with the goal tend.
http://www.youtube.com/v/HvJywRV9P0w&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b
So it's harder to say Kobe>Jordan. But like Ali, Kobe will have to prove it. But as I said, he win 3 more titles, beat Lebron and retires on top, he'll prove something. IF Kobe wins 2 more titles, but then loses to Lebron, people will say the torch is passed, and Kobe's role will be great player that Lebron beat for his legacy, and Kobe goes in with Magic, West, Russell, Wilt and all the other over who is second best.
So I was listening to AM 570 (official Laker station, so NIK dont call them haters lol) earlier tonight, and they were going over the greatest players of all time. They read a top ten published by (cant remember who exactly), that gave the top 1,000 NBA players all time. Jordan was number 1, of course. Kareem number 2, cant remember everyone else on the list. But Duncan was 8, Shaq was 9.....and Kobe was....well, lets just say, not in the top 10. I believe he was at 13. Not much argument against that coming from the Laker station lol. In fact, it seems like most of the top 10 lists out there (you gotta be careful cus some are just random idiots giving their opinion) dont have Kobe in the top 10 all time. Out of active players, only Duncan and Shaq are regulars in most of the top ten lists out there. Now Im not saying Kobe isnt a top 10 player, when its all said and done I think he will be. Just interesting that it seems most people dont think he is as of now. And we have people on here saying he's better then Jordan lol. Good shit guys, keep the comedy rolling...
KLAC is a Laker station, but they're known to hire Laker haters to balance it out and make sure peeps don't see it as a homer station...if u listen, u know this. not saying the list was a hater list, but you cant put someone on top of a list before their career is over, regardless. Jordan, as of now, is the GOAT CAREERWISE...but as far as skill and talent goes, theres nothing Jordan coulda done that Kobe cant...end of story...PeACe
I listen to KLAC all the time lol. But thats irrelevant. My only point was that the list they read, and most other lists Ive seen, dont even have Kobe in the top ten all time...while two other active players are. Kobe will go down as one of the greats, obviously. But to argue he is better then Jordan when he hasnt even cracked the top 10 in most "NBA All Time" top players lists is kind of funny. Whats interesting is, Jordan was ontop of that list before his career ended. Which is why I say, the only way someone surpasses Jordan, is to be universally accepted as the best ever before they even finish their career. If they are fighting for position in the later stages of their career, theyve already lost the debate. Because Jordan was recognized as the greatest far before his career was over.
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^ I disagree in a sense
7 over 6 would do it, in my opinion
but until he even gets 6, he shouldn't be mentioned in front of Jordan
5 still won't be enough, he needs 6 or 7 to even argue about the 2 players
7 is insane though, I think that would say somethin.. ya know?
I get what youre saying. I just think there are SO many factors to being an all time great. Kobe will, without a doubt, go down as one of the best all time players. This is the reason I dont see Kobe ever surpassing Jordan. When Jordan was in the league, there were a ton of great players before him. There was Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr J, etc...etc. BUT, in the midst of his career...there was already no doubt that he was the best ever. You KNEW you were watching the best player ever. There was hardly any debate against it. Kobe, being in the later part of his career, is still trying to prove he is the best Laker ever.
what you have is someone who's in position to pass Jordan, and it wasn't until Jordan's comeback that you truly knew he was the greatest. In the first 3 peat, you saw greatness, and people put him up there with the greats, but there was a ton of people that still argued Russell or Magic was the greatest, that Wilt was more dominate or that Larry Bird had that will. What Jordan did in the second 3 peat was rest all doubts, and in the decline of his career, he continued to dominate everyone, he was more dominate that a young Shaq, he had more will to win than anyone else in NBA history, and his leadership skills were so far advance that only Magic Johnson could have had the loyalty Jordan had. Jordan put to rest everythingi in his second comeback. He retires striking out in minor league baseball, his one of the all time greats, but his not the greatest, that's for debate.
Muhammad Ali called himself the greatest. But until he beat George Foreman, and showed his will to win, he wasn't the greatest in peoples minds. His in the conversation with Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano, but his not the greatest. Kobe Bryant right now, is at the down slope of his career. He has 2 or 3 more prime years, and then it's that time were you hold on too long. Jordan originally retired at the age of 35, the time when most are in their twilight, but MJ was arguably still the best in the world, and proved it by winning titles. Kobe, if his to be in the conversation with MJ has to win. And win and win and win and win, and not only win, but beat Lebron James, beat the Celtics with KG and Pierce, beat the Magic with Superman, beat everyone put in his way, because the only way he can even be looked at MJ's level is by stepping up, and showing that will to win. He does not have to be at his physical best, in fact when calling our GOATs, we don't look for that, it seems people look for who can do it for a long period of time and who can do it even when their knees give out, and they should be bed ridden with the flu and when they are against someone younger and more physically dominating than them. I say this, if Kobe wins 3 more titles, and beats LeBron for at least the last one, and retires, we'll look at it as Muhammad beating Foreman, and Kobe goes out the GOAT. If Kobe loses to Lebron, we'll look at it as Magic losing to MJ, and the passing of the torch and Kobe goes with West, Magic, Russell, Wilt, and all the others in that argument over second best.
My point was, that Jordan was a special case. A RARE case in any sport. In our lifetime we havent seen it in baseball, or football. The only other sport WE'VE seen it in, is golf with Tiger Woods. At this point in Jordans career, it was already known that he was the greatest. In a sport with such a long history (like any of out major sports), for someone to be truly recognized as the greatest (with little to no debate about it), they will have to be the clear cut greatest while they are still in the prime of their career. They cant be fighting for their place in history towards the end of their careers. The reason Jordan is the greatest still, is because we ALL knew he was the best ever far before his career was over. The reason we know Tiger will go down as the greatest golfer ever, is because its already evident far before his career is over. There havent been any other athletes in US sports that you can say that about in our lifetime so far. Even Ali did not have that status DURING his career.
Lets just say this, the marking behind Jordan was that we called him the greatest without him proving it. Many basketball insiders were deferring to other players. If our lasting memory of Jordan was this
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TCdErEO7OCM/SaFi5D4RD8I/AAAAAAAABHs/NV9C3mk9PpU/s400/Jordan%2520baseball.jpg)
Jordan doesn't go out the GOAT, we don't have two 3 peats to talk about and all is what ifs. BUT Jordan did comeback, and it's leaving the game like this
(http://www.kicksonfire.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/air-jordan-14-xiv-original-og-final-last-shot-black-black-varsity-red-10.jpg)
It's picture perfect, we get everyone saying his the greatest of all time and you can't argue it because it's perfect.
The reason Michael was called the greatest because we knew he can win titles at will, we knew that barring a horrible knee injury, he'd get more titles than Magic, Bird and everyone else, you can argue that minus the baseball deal he'd have almost as many as Bill Russell and we can live with that argument, so we called Jordan the greatest. What cemented his legacy was the 1995-1996 season. 72 wins, breaking the Laker's record, and winning the NBA title for the 4th time. That's when it became clear Michael Jordan was the best player to ever play. Before that, he was the best of the era, one of the greatest, but not the greatest, but in 1996, that was the proof people needed, MJ is the GOAT. He was 33 years old at that time.
Kobe is 30 now, and no one has seen a player like him since Jordan. His only problem, he followed Jordan, we even have video of a young Kobe vs. Jordan. LMAO at Shaq saving Kobe from a huge embarrassment with the goal tend.
http://www.youtube.com/v/HvJywRV9P0w&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b
So it's harder to say Kobe>Jordan. But like Ali, Kobe will have to prove it. But as I said, he win 3 more titles, beat Lebron and retires on top, he'll prove something. IF Kobe wins 2 more titles, but then loses to Lebron, people will say the torch is passed, and Kobe's role will be great player that Lebron beat for his legacy, and Kobe goes in with Magic, West, Russell, Wilt and all the other over who is second best.
So I was listening to AM 570 (official Laker station, so NIK dont call them haters lol) earlier tonight, and they were going over the greatest players of all time. They read a top ten published by (cant remember who exactly), that gave the top 1,000 NBA players all time. Jordan was number 1, of course. Kareem number 2, cant remember everyone else on the list. But Duncan was 8, Shaq was 9.....and Kobe was....well, lets just say, not in the top 10. I believe he was at 13. Not much argument against that coming from the Laker station lol. In fact, it seems like most of the top 10 lists out there (you gotta be careful cus some are just random idiots giving their opinion) dont have Kobe in the top 10 all time. Out of active players, only Duncan and Shaq are regulars in most of the top ten lists out there. Now Im not saying Kobe isnt a top 10 player, when its all said and done I think he will be. Just interesting that it seems most people dont think he is as of now. And we have people on here saying he's better then Jordan lol. Good shit guys, keep the comedy rolling...
KLAC is a Laker station, but they're known to hire Laker haters to balance it out and make sure peeps don't see it as a homer station...if u listen, u know this. not saying the list was a hater list, but you cant put someone on top of a list before their career is over, regardless. Jordan, as of now, is the GOAT CAREERWISE...but as far as skill and talent goes, theres nothing Jordan coulda done that Kobe cant...end of story...PeACe
I listen to KLAC all the time lol. But thats irrelevant. My only point was that the list they read, and most other lists Ive seen, dont even have Kobe in the top ten all time...while two other active players are. Kobe will go down as one of the greats, obviously. But to argue he is better then Jordan when he hasnt even cracked the top 10 in most "NBA All Time" top players lists is kind of funny. Whats interesting is, Jordan was ontop of that list before his career ended. Which is why I say, the only way someone surpasses Jordan, is to be universally accepted as the best ever before they even finish their career. If they are fighting for position in the later stages of their career, theyve already lost the debate. Because Jordan was recognized as the greatest far before his career was over.
Jordan WAS NOT recognized as the clear cut greatest by age 30...LOL. get over that idea, cuz it's flawed. with 3 more titles in the next 3 years, Kobe could very easily be recognized as the new GOAT in the basketball world...thats age 33. same age Jordan was first recognized as that. and even if he doesnt win 3 more titles, hes the GOAT skillwise. it doesnt take worldwide recognition for it to be true...8)
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sorry NIK but that's where you're wrong. Jordan had the skill and talent to keep ugly white girls' mouths shut.
LOL
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Tim Legler has said if Jordan never took that break he would have won 8 with the Bulls.
that´s probably true and had he won 8 rings there wouldn´t have been much of an argument. but it´s hard to say who´s the best, but there´s no room for discussion when you talk about who´s had the biggest impact on every aspect of the game.... Kobe wiill NEVER have the same iconic status as Mike.
Kobe can't be that iconic status because MJ is already their; he'll always be second to MJ (except to Laker fans), until LeBron pushes Kobe back to third. ;D :P
if their was no Jordan people would praise Kobe like he is the best thing to ever step on the court, he would be the iconic NBA figure if Jordan wasn't who he was.
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Tim Legler has said if Jordan never took that break he would have won 8 with the Bulls.
that´s probably true and had he won 8 rings there wouldn´t have been much of an argument. but it´s hard to say who´s the best, but there´s no room for discussion when you talk about who´s had the biggest impact on every aspect of the game.... Kobe wiill NEVER have the same iconic status as Mike.
Kobe can't be that iconic status because MJ is already their; he'll always be second to MJ (except to Laker fans), until LeBron pushes Kobe back to third. ;D :P
if their was no Jordan people would praise Kobe like he is the best thing to ever step on the court, he would be the iconic NBA figure if Jordan wasn't who he was.
Kobe never had a chance to be that iconic figure...if he came into the league in '84, in Jordan's position, he woulda definitely had a chance at that same marketing & push that the NBA gave Jordan...but he didn't and it is what it is...still...public image status doesn't define skill, and when comparing players, i'd prefer to keep my focus on what they do on the court...PeACe
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Tim Legler has said if Jordan never took that break he would have won 8 with the Bulls.
that´s probably true and had he won 8 rings there wouldn´t have been much of an argument. but it´s hard to say who´s the best, but there´s no room for discussion when you talk about who´s had the biggest impact on every aspect of the game.... Kobe wiill NEVER have the same iconic status as Mike.
Kobe can't be that iconic status because MJ is already their; he'll always be second to MJ (except to Laker fans), until LeBron pushes Kobe back to third. ;D :P
if their was no Jordan people would praise Kobe like he is the best thing to ever step on the court, he would be the iconic NBA figure if Jordan wasn't who he was.
Kobe never had a chance to be that iconic figure...if he came into the league in '84, in Jordan's position, he woulda definitely had a chance at that same marketing & push that the NBA gave Jordan...but he didn't and it is what it is...still...public image status doesn't define skill, and when comparing players, i'd prefer to keep my focus on what they do on the court...PeACe
yeah, that's what i mean.
but if you focus on what they did on the court, MJ (at this point) is still on top of Kobe; stats & rings.
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Tim Legler has said if Jordan never took that break he would have won 8 with the Bulls.
that´s probably true and had he won 8 rings there wouldn´t have been much of an argument. but it´s hard to say who´s the best, but there´s no room for discussion when you talk about who´s had the biggest impact on every aspect of the game.... Kobe wiill NEVER have the same iconic status as Mike.
Kobe can't be that iconic status because MJ is already their; he'll always be second to MJ (except to Laker fans), until LeBron pushes Kobe back to third. ;D :P
if their was no Jordan people would praise Kobe like he is the best thing to ever step on the court, he would be the iconic NBA figure if Jordan wasn't who he was.
Honestly, Kobe will more then likely never even make it to #2. Anything can happen I guess, but more then likely he wont even go down as the greatest Laker of all time...and maybe not even the second greatest Laker of all time with Magic and Kareem holding those two spots.
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Tim Legler has said if Jordan never took that break he would have won 8 with the Bulls.
that´s probably true and had he won 8 rings there wouldn´t have been much of an argument. but it´s hard to say who´s the best, but there´s no room for discussion when you talk about who´s had the biggest impact on every aspect of the game.... Kobe wiill NEVER have the same iconic status as Mike.
Kobe can't be that iconic status because MJ is already their; he'll always be second to MJ (except to Laker fans), until LeBron pushes Kobe back to third. ;D :P
if their was no Jordan people would praise Kobe like he is the best thing to ever step on the court, he would be the iconic NBA figure if Jordan wasn't who he was.
Honestly, Kobe will more then likely never even make it to #2. Anything can happen I guess, but more then likely he wont even go down as the greatest Laker of all time...and maybe not even the second greatest Laker of all time with Magic and Kareem holding those two spots.
the guy is 30 years old and still in his prime....basically, you're an idiot. LOL
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
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^i can't really say anything about Ali, but i hear a lot of people say Joe Fraizer >>> Ali.
but i know what you mean, when you think boxing, Ali's name comes up; some with Tiger in golf & same with MJ and ball.
baseball & football really don't have a clear cut face for greatest.
i mean generally it's Babe Ruth, but it's easily debatable & football their are just so many different positions how do you determine the "best".
i hear analysts all the time saying that this (4th ring) pushes Kobe into a more exclusive list & maybe cracking the top ten; but you have to somewhat question it.
but think, doesn't it seem like you have to be a guard to be concidered the best.
Duncan won & nobody is debating he is the best, it just doesn't make sense lol.
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^i can't really say anything about Ali, but i hear a lot of people say Joe Fraizer >>> Ali.
but i know what you mean, when you think boxing, Ali's name comes up; some with Tiger in golf & same with MJ and ball.
baseball & football really don't have a clear cut face for greatest.
i mean generally it's Babe Ruth, but it's easily debatable & football their are just so many different positions how do you determine the "best".
i hear analysts all the time saying that this (4th ring) pushes Kobe into a more exclusive list & maybe cracking the top ten; but you have to somewhat question it.
but think, doesn't it seem like you have to be a guard to be concidered the best.
Duncan won & nobody is debating he is the best, it just doesn't make sense lol.
I think that Jordan changed the game in such a way, that a bigman would have a difficult time being considered the greatest ever now, because you are always going to compare to Jordan. Its not natural to compare a great Center or Power Forward now, to Jordan. Chances are you will pick a 2 guard, or maybe a small forward. But definetely a perimeter player. Thats why, when it comes to the NBA...i almost lean more towards picking the greatest ever at their position. Im a Spurs fan, but i dont feel it makes sense to just say Duncan>Kobe. They cant really be compared. Ive always said I felt Kobe was or will be the 2nd best 2 guard ever. Duncan is the best PF ever. Jordan is an exception to the rule, and if you took him out of the equation Kobe and Duncan would both be on the all time starting 5 by the time theyre done.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
not really...because regardless of what me, you, or anybody says - these things will always be debated and nobody will really be right. Even those that back Jordan, thats just their opinion. There is no official crowning of anybody - just a collective group of people that get argued as being the best.
Every icon has a case for and against.... Joe Louis and Marciano fans will argue against Ali. Jack fans will argue against Tiger (as Tiger hasn't even broken his record yet) and Jordan will always have someone to argue against him as well.
Fuck it..we all like who we like.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
not really...because regardless of what me, you, or anybody says - these things will always be debated and nobody will really be right. Even those that back Jordan, thats just their opinion. There is no official crowning of anybody - just a collective group of people that get argued as being the best.
Every icon has a case for and against.... Joe Louis and Marciano fans will argue against Ali. Jack fans will argue against Tiger (as Tiger hasn't even broken his record yet) and Jordan will always have someone to argue against him as well.
Fuck it..we all like who we like.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
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wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasnt past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
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nah the reason im askin is cuz some (espn heads and others) think or like to say that hes the best athlete
YEAH MANY HAVE SAID HES THE BEST ATHLETE, but i agree wit what you said, golf doesnt involve much work
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all of this is just speculation.... there is no real data to base any of this off of. people will debate who's the greatest in any sport and there will always be a debate because there is no real cut winner. You may "think" there is but that's just your opinion. But you will always find someone out there that disagrees with your opinion.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
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it jus dont make sense to me that they say tiger is the best athlete (they even made it clear best athlete in the world) when the sport in which he plays in has nuthin on b-ball, football, baseball or even nhl
now i know its jus what they sayin and its only their input but damn best athlete ever=tiger?
its like they gettin paid to bring up tigers name in this category
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
Fuck popularity. Mays never had the numbers. He simply wsn't a better hitter, and where he passes Bave in baserunning and fielding he doesn't even come close in pitching. I don't think you understand what a big deal it is that Babe was the calibre of pitcher that he was. He had two years that would have given him CY Young awarsd in today's game. In 1918 he had 13 wins as a pitcher and lead the league in HRs batting a 300. In his two full years asa pitcher he had a 1.75 era and a and 2.01 ERA. Roger Celems only pitched under 2.0 twice in his long career and never had anything lower at pace with 1.75. Clemens has also never matched Babe's 9 shut out games. Nolan Ryan only did it once.
You put babe Ruth one on one with Willie Mays and Ruth would destroy him.
The only other guy in the conversation is Ty Cobb, but he was such an asshole of a human being history likes to forget about him. Just look at the numbers and see how much better Ruth was than Mays. You can argue Magic over Jordan a lot easier than you can argue Mays over Ruth.
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it jus dont make sense to me that they say tiger is the best athlete (they even made it clear best athlete in the world) when the sport in which he plays in has nuthin on b-ball, football, baseball or even nhl
now i know its jus what they sayin and its only their input but damn best athlete ever=tiger?
its like they gettin paid to bring up tigers name in this category
Why "even NHL"? You say that like it's less than the others in terms of athletics. It's harder to play the NHL playoffs straight through than it is in any other sport.
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haha nah i was jus thinkin bout that nhl is a underrated sport altho im jus startin to watch it more than i would (i meant and even nhl as in yeah even the nhl who many dont talk about but thats a hard sport)
aite golf is a one-man team sport or whatever you want to call it vs football, b-ball, nhl all havin team members etc...but still tiger woods best athlete ever?
nah nice to know their input but that jus aint right lol
it jus dont make sense to me that they say tiger is the best athlete (they even made it clear best athlete in the world) when the sport in which he plays in has nuthin on b-ball, football, baseball or even nhl
now i know its jus what they sayin and its only their input but damn best athlete ever=tiger?
its like they gettin paid to bring up tigers name in this category
Why "even NHL"? You say that like it's less than the others in terms of athletics. It's harder to play the NHL playoffs straight through than it is in any other sport.
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it jus dont make sense to me that they say tiger is the best athlete (they even made it clear best athlete in the world) when the sport in which he plays in has nuthin on b-ball, football, baseball or even nhl
now i know its jus what they sayin and its only their input but damn best athlete ever=tiger?
its like they gettin paid to bring up tigers name in this category
yeah its hard to say Tiger is the best athlete. Golf itself isnt an athletic sport, however Tiger is probably more athletic then 90% of MLB :-\
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
Fuck popularity. Mays never had the numbers. He simply wsn't a better hitter, and where he passes Bave in baserunning and fielding he doesn't even come close in pitching. I don't think you understand what a big deal it is that Babe was the calibre of pitcher that he was. He had two years that would have given him CY Young awarsd in today's game. In 1918 he had 13 wins as a pitcher and lead the league in HRs batting a 300. In his two full years asa pitcher he had a 1.75 era and a and 2.01 ERA. Roger Celems only pitched under 2.0 twice in his long career and never had anything lower at pace with 1.75. Clemens has also never matched Babe's 9 shut out games. Nolan Ryan only did it once.
You put babe Ruth one on one with Willie Mays and Ruth would destroy him.
The only other guy in the conversation is Ty Cobb, but he was such an asshole of a human being history likes to forget about him. Just look at the numbers and see how much better Ruth was than Mays. You can argue Magic over Jordan a lot easier than you can argue Mays over Ruth.
doesnt ESPN have Mays ranked as #2 all time? lol. And NOBODY argues Magic > Jordan LOL!! Other then Laker fans. Magic himself said MJ is on another level.
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
thats a lie. You'll argue for Manning over Brady till the death...
Of course I will because they play at the same time. I never said I don't take debating sports too seriously. I take it very seriously. I just don't take cross-era debates too seriously. Like Manning vs Montana. Different eras different environments, and different groundwork to build off of. I think Manning is head and shoulders above Brady because their careers are parallel with each other and Manning showed me twice the talent with half the team (defense, coaches, o-line etc.). I don't think The Colts would have gone 5-11 with out Manning this year, much less 11-5. Why'd you have to go and get me started? If you really want to go through ths again just start another thread. I don't want to pollute this one.
LOL@ Bad coaching
LOL@confusing coaching with a Dungy vs Bellichick debate. Dungy is great, but career vs career the Pats had a much better line up of coaches (all coaches, not just head coaches) than the Colts. It's not even close. Moore wasa run of the mill OC in Pit for 7 years. Then more mediocrity with the Viks in the early 90s. He did ok with Detroit but Barry was there. And on D, you going to compare Ron Meeks to Crennel? Good luck. Just face it. That amazing team went 11-5 with that bitch Brady on the beach.
soon as you admit Mannings always had FAR SUPERIOR TALENT ON OFFENSE AROUND HIM..One year Brady had any talent he threw 50 and 5..LOL..MANNNING WOULD NEVER DO THAT
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yeah to each is own but jordan>>>woods, and magic
jordan is in a league of his own and not many can get on his level
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
thats a lie. You'll argue for Manning over Brady till the death...
Of course I will because they play at the same time. I never said I don't take debating sports too seriously. I take it very seriously. I just don't take cross-era debates too seriously. Like Manning vs Montana. Different eras different environments, and different groundwork to build off of. I think Manning is head and shoulders above Brady because their careers are parallel with each other and Manning showed me twice the talent with half the team (defense, coaches, o-line etc.). I don't think The Colts would have gone 5-11 with out Manning this year, much less 11-5. Why'd you have to go and get me started? If you really want to go through ths again just start another thread. I don't want to pollute this one.
LOL@ Bad coaching
LOL@confusing coaching with a Dungy vs Bellichick debate. Dungy is great, but career vs career the Pats had a much better line up of coaches (all coaches, not just head coaches) than the Colts. It's not even close. Moore wasa run of the mill OC in Pit for 7 years. Then more mediocrity with the Viks in the early 90s. He did ok with Detroit but Barry was there. And on D, you going to compare Ron Meeks to Crennel? Good luck. Just face it. That amazing team went 11-5 with that bitch Brady on the beach.
soon as you admit Mannings always had FAR SUPERIOR TALENT ON OFFENSE AROUND HIM..One year Brady had any talent he threw 50 and 5..LOL..MANNNING WOULD NEVER DO THAT
Who has the highest single season QB rating of all time?
Who won his third MVP with a rotating o-line and a beat up nobody wants him number 1 WR?
And who has two OCs so praised for what they've done they both end up with head coaching jobs?
Who went down for a season and had the back-up go 11-5?
.:DaYg0sTyLz:.
Fuck ESPN they're the same fags that say Tiger is the best athlete. They also put Bonds at number 1 didn't they. They can list what ever numbers they want, but no one will ever be able to win an argument saying Mays was better than Ruth. Show me why you'd rather have Mays in his prime than Ruth. A 1919 or 1920 Ruth can be your ace and your clean up hitter in the same game. How do you beat that?
Imagine there was a starting QB inthe NFL that was also be your middle linebacker, averaged 25 to 30 TDs a season with 4000 yards as QB, and record 10 to 12 sackes a year with 5 0r 6 INTs, and 5 or 6 forced fumbles and recoveries. Would there be any doubt that he's the MVP?
That's Ruth in his prime. If the MLB allowed more than one MVP a player during the 20s Ruth would have had 7 or 8.
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The whole greatest argument is great, you know why.... 'cause in this boards opinion means SHIT! Barbershops, water coolers, internet threads. Fans can have this conversation, it'll take up time and at the end of the day, you can't prove shit. Ali vs Tyson, Kobe vs. MJ, Nolan Ryan vs. Babe Ruth, better coach Red or Phil, Dr. J in a dunk off with Dominic Wilkins, Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Sugar Ray Leonard, '80's 49ers driving last minute in the 70's Steelers for the win, Tiger vs Nicklaus. This are never going to happen, but they bring debate, people want to have an opinion, and fans will argue with a passion for their team, their fighter. NIK will argue for the Gold and Forum Blue, Hack will defend his Yankees, I will go with Ali no matter what, it's just what it is. And it can be a message board, barbershop or water coolers at work (I don't have a water cooler... haha) but this is what fans do.
I can get caught up in it too but in the end I never take it too seriously. I honestly have no clue how Rocky Marciano would if plucked out of his time and put in to today's boxing scene. I don't know who'd had more majors if Jack and Tiger played at the same time. Or what kind of player MJ would have been in 1965.
The problem I have is when people outside the venue of basic bullshitting take their opinions home with them and actually believe in them as fact. Don't know why it bothers me. It just does.
thats a lie. You'll argue for Manning over Brady till the death...
Of course I will because they play at the same time. I never said I don't take debating sports too seriously. I take it very seriously. I just don't take cross-era debates too seriously. Like Manning vs Montana. Different eras different environments, and different groundwork to build off of. I think Manning is head and shoulders above Brady because their careers are parallel with each other and Manning showed me twice the talent with half the team (defense, coaches, o-line etc.). I don't think The Colts would have gone 5-11 with out Manning this year, much less 11-5. Why'd you have to go and get me started? If you really want to go through ths again just start another thread. I don't want to pollute this one.
LOL@ Bad coaching
LOL@confusing coaching with a Dungy vs Bellichick debate. Dungy is great, but career vs career the Pats had a much better line up of coaches (all coaches, not just head coaches) than the Colts. It's not even close. Moore wasa run of the mill OC in Pit for 7 years. Then more mediocrity with the Viks in the early 90s. He did ok with Detroit but Barry was there. And on D, you going to compare Ron Meeks to Crennel? Good luck. Just face it. That amazing team went 11-5 with that bitch Brady on the beach.
soon as you admit Mannings always had FAR SUPERIOR TALENT ON OFFENSE AROUND HIM..One year Brady had any talent he threw 50 and 5..LOL..MANNNING WOULD NEVER DO THAT
Who has the highest single season QB rating of all time?
Who won his third MVP with a rotating o-line and a beat up nobody wants him number 1 WR?
And who has two OCs so praised for what they've done they both end up with head coaching jobs?
Who went down for a season and had the back-up go 11-5?
.:DaYg0sTyLz:.
Fuck ESPN they're the same fags that say Tiger is the best athlete. They also put Bonds at number 1 didn't they. They can list what ever numbers they want, but no one will ever be able to win an argument saying Mays was better than Ruth. Show me why you'd rather have Mays in his prime than Ruth. A 1919 or 1920 Ruth can be your ace and your clean up hitter in the same game. How do you beat that?
Imagine there was a starting QB inthe NFL that was also be your middle linebacker, averaged 25 to 30 TDs a season with 4000 yards as QB, and record 10 to 12 sackes a year with 5 0r 6 INTs, and 5 or 6 forced fumbles and recoveries. Would there be any doubt that he's the MVP?
That's Ruth in his prime. If the MLB allowed more than one MVP a player during the 20s Ruth would have had 7 or 8.
I thought ESPN had Ruth at #1? My point was that arguing whether #2 is better then #1 is not that far-fetched of an argument, in baseball. Anyways, this is just back and forth and more then likely not going anywhere. All I know is Ive seen a ton of arguments against Ruth being the best ever, and hardly any against Jordan lol. Even the fact that greats transcend eras, and a lot of people dont believe Ruth could play today. Jordan can, and a lot of people think Mays could as well. Anyways, fuckit it. Like I said, this will go nowhere.
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Fair enough, but the NBA has only really been competitive since the 60s. Mays started almost 60s years after Ruth. You think in 60 years from now it'll still be Jordan bar none? The fact that Ruth is still in the running, still known, still talked about. Anyone that thinks Ruth couldn't play today is a moron, and it's no different than saying 90% of today's stars couldn't play back then. Take away the streoids and meth pills, the strict workouts, personal trainers, updated sports medicine, and bring back the small gloves, shitty bats, shitty balls and allow pitchers to use spit and slippery substances to make the balls curve. You think Barry Bonds would even have 500 HRs in that environment, because I'm not sure myself.
You put the raw talent of Babe Ruth and add all the modern tricks of the trade and you'd have the best player in baseball today. Give the NBA 60 more years to grow and we'll see if MJ is still God.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
wow...notice how Daygo starts soundin like me when it works for his argument. "Babe Ruth was a bigger icon because of the media, but Mays was still better skillwise"...hmmmmmmm, sound familiar?....what a punk lol.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
Fuck popularity. Mays never had the numbers. He simply wsn't a better hitter, and where he passes Bave in baserunning and fielding he doesn't even come close in pitching. I don't think you understand what a big deal it is that Babe was the calibre of pitcher that he was. He had two years that would have given him CY Young awarsd in today's game. In 1918 he had 13 wins as a pitcher and lead the league in HRs batting a 300. In his two full years asa pitcher he had a 1.75 era and a and 2.01 ERA. Roger Celems only pitched under 2.0 twice in his long career and never had anything lower at pace with 1.75. Clemens has also never matched Babe's 9 shut out games. Nolan Ryan only did it once.
You put babe Ruth one on one with Willie Mays and Ruth would destroy him.
The only other guy in the conversation is Ty Cobb, but he was such an asshole of a human being history likes to forget about him. Just look at the numbers and see how much better Ruth was than Mays. You can argue Magic over Jordan a lot easier than you can argue Mays over Ruth.
doesnt ESPN have Mays ranked as #2 all time? lol. And NOBODY argues Magic > Jordan LOL!! Other then Laker fans. Magic himself said MJ is on another level.
LOLLL...riiiightttt. thats why many still consider Magic the GOAT? even Dennis Rodman said he thought Magic was better, and he played with MJ. man up.
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for the record...
Ruth >>> Mays; Willy just had a better glove.
Ruth could pitch & hit; best combination ever lol.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
wow...notice how Daygo starts soundin like me when it works for his argument. "Babe Ruth was a bigger icon because of the media, but Mays was still better skillwise"...hmmmmmmm, sound familiar?....what a punk lol.
How stupid are you? Yeah because the media and fans nowadays are racist against Kobe but not MJ lol. If you think an African-American baseball player back then would receive the same love and respect from fans and media as the "Great Bambino" youre fuckin retarded lol.
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You're talking like they played at the same time. Ruth was retired for 16 years before Mays even came into the majors. I'll admit, if Ruth was black and Satchell Paige was white then maybe the Great Bambino would have been Paige, because if had played in the majors in his prime Paige may have been better all around. I don't know for sure and we can never really know. But if Mays was white he would have been Mickey Mantle big, but Babe Ruth big is a different story.
I'll also admit that if Babe couldn't pitch you'd have a case for Willie because of his fielding, but as a batter Ruth had 2,500 less at bats yet hit 50 more homeruns, 300 more RBIs, and only 20 less doubles, and 4 less triples. And he had a .342 BA to Willie's .302 BA. A .474 OBP to Willie's .384, and an increbile .690 slugging percentage to compared to 557. Give the Babe those 2,500 at bats that Mays had and his numbers would be ridiculously out of reach for any player past, present, and most forseeable future.
The only offensive stat Willie was obviously better at was stealing bases. Everything else gets complete eclipsed by the Babe when you look at per at bat. It's not even close.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
Fuck popularity. Mays never had the numbers. He simply wsn't a better hitter, and where he passes Bave in baserunning and fielding he doesn't even come close in pitching. I don't think you understand what a big deal it is that Babe was the calibre of pitcher that he was. He had two years that would have given him CY Young awarsd in today's game. In 1918 he had 13 wins as a pitcher and lead the league in HRs batting a 300. In his two full years asa pitcher he had a 1.75 era and a and 2.01 ERA. Roger Celems only pitched under 2.0 twice in his long career and never had anything lower at pace with 1.75. Clemens has also never matched Babe's 9 shut out games. Nolan Ryan only did it once.
You put babe Ruth one on one with Willie Mays and Ruth would destroy him.
The only other guy in the conversation is Ty Cobb, but he was such an asshole of a human being history likes to forget about him. Just look at the numbers and see how much better Ruth was than Mays. You can argue Magic over Jordan a lot easier than you can argue Mays over Ruth.
doesnt ESPN have Mays ranked as #2 all time? lol. And NOBODY argues Magic > Jordan LOL!! Other then Laker fans. Magic himself said MJ is on another level.
LOLLL...riiiightttt. thats why many still consider Magic the GOAT? even Dennis Rodman said he thought Magic was better, and he played with MJ. man up.
What's funny is when the Bulls signed Rodman, in the Rodman movie, he claimed they try to sell him on playing with the greatest player ever, and Rodman said, you signed Magic Johnson... lol. At that time though, Magic had more titles and he had tons of triple doubles were as Jordan was seen mainly as a scorer, and when he did actually passed people were surprised... see the first 3 peat period. Up until the 95-96 season, it was not a clear cut vote, and people mainly argued Magic with Wilt and Russell getting lots of attention too. It all changes though once you do something to prove greatness.
Ruth and Mays, I'll argue that Mays was the better all around player,and since Ruth didn't play in an integrated league, I can't put him at top. From the Jackie Robinson era to the Jose Canseco is to me the purest era of baseball, and from that Mayes is the GOAT, so to me Mayes is the GOAT of baseball. Ruth had all the power, his pitches could have been clocked at over 100 in his prime if they had speed guns back then, and he could hit the ball a mile away. But in all around skills, speed, power, fielding, Mayes was the best ever, the best all around talent. But since they didn't play in the same era, we can never tell.
Just for fun, it's all about eras, this is Jordan's Bulls against the Magics Lakers in 84, I think it's games like this that made Jordan great. Clearly this was the Showtime era as Mike would not get on top for another 6 years.
http://www.youtube.com/v/fZ5j2M70uro&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01
Now lets see what happens in the height of the Michael era when Magic comes back
http://www.youtube.com/v/VrpUbY_iYqw&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b
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Ruth and Mays, I'll argue that Mays was the better all around player,and since Ruth didn't play in an integrated league, I can't put him at top. From the Jackie Robinson era to the Jose Canseco is to me the purest era of baseball, and from that Mayes is the GOAT, so to me Mayes is the GOAT of baseball. Ruth had all the power, his pitches could have been clocked at over 100 in his prime if they had speed guns back then, and he could hit the ball a mile away. But in all around skills, speed, power, fielding, Mayes was the best ever, the best all around talent. But since they didn't play in the same era, we can never tell.
Mays may have been a better athlete but doesn't the fact that he couldn't pitch put him behind Ruth? And people seem to only remember the fat, out of shape 30s Ruth. He was a rock solid outdielder in the 20s. The guy was no DH by today's standards. I know the whole no black pitchers argument is used a lot with his numbers, but I could count the number of black pitchers Mays had to face on one hand.
Of course if we're talking all around we got to bring Cobb into the argument. The redords he had for the time he had them, entirely in the deal ball era, really truly are a great feat. But Baseball wants to forget him. Everytime someone bats over 400 mid season everyone talks about Williams for having that one 400 year season. Cobb had three 400 year seasons, could play anywhere on the field, and is still top 5 in most major categories. And despite the hatred he did get more votes than Ruth and anyone else for the Hall of Fame.
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Kobe has a long way to go before he retires. Let's continue this debate in about 7 to 8 years.
no doubt, but here's my thing...
let's say in a year or so this Laker squad breaks up & Kobe never wins another ring, but continues to put up the same stats (i mean look at the Celtics, shit happens).
so he never wins another ring, but you people will still stay debating that he is the best & shit.
so basically MJ is in a lose-lose situation for this debate, regardless of when it takes place. :P
Its simply not going to happen. In major sports in the US, there are basically 3 All time greats, where there is almost no debate about it. Jordan, Ali, and Tiger Woods. Jordan was crowned the greatest ever during his career. And at that time, there was very little debate. Shit wasnt it Magic that said "theres Michael Jordan, and then there's the rest of us"? With Tiger, its pretty clear he will go down as the greatest golfer ever...barring some horrible accident where he can never play golf again. Ali is difficult to guage because none of us were around at that time to truly get what the perception of him was during his career. Not to mention, there was so much political bullshit that lead to a lot of white America being very anti-Ali. But Kobe would have to pull off something miraculous to pass Jordan as the all time great. As I said, many dont even consider him a top 10 yet, but consider Shaq and Duncan in the top 10. So how people (Laker fans) try to push for Kobe> Jordan is fucking confusing lol.
I'd say the only two where most consider a single player as the best ever with out any real debate is Jordan and Ruth. Tiger hasn't passed Nicklaus yet and even if he does there'd still be a debate unless he slaughters the record. Tennis is pretty open Football doesn't really have . Boxing will get as money Louis or Marciano votes as it would Ali votes. Football's got no one because each position is so very different. Soccer has Pele or Maradonna.
You could be right about Ali, but I would bet at least 80% of polls would show people picking Ali as the greatest. Ruth has been up for debate for a long time lol. There is DEFINETELY no clearcut greatest in baseball, or football. Jordan is the clearcut greatest in Basketball obviously. The reason I say Tiger, is because he is in the same boat Jordan was in the middle of his career. He didnt have all the records or even all 6 championships, but everyone already knew he was going to go down as the all time great. Tiger hasn't past Nicklaus yet, but like i said...barring some unforeseen injury that ends his career, he will easily pass Nicklaus.
Debated with who? Ruth is still all these years later the clear cut greatest Baseball has ever seen. 342 BA, a fucking 690 slugging, 714 HRs with only 8400 ABs (that's 3000 less at bats than Aaron), and he was a winning World Series pitcher who at a high recorded 24 wins with 2 era and 35 complete games. Who the fuck even comes close to that in the MLB? Ruth is more clear cut than Jordan will ever be because we're still talking about him almost 100 year after he joined the majors. I'd like to see where Bonds stacks up in 60 years, or Aaron in the next 50. Ruth is the King of Baseball unless some guy comes along and wins 30 games as a pitcher with a perect game to boot and then hits 80 HRs.
"80% of polls would show people picking Ali" from with in boxing? No way. Joe Louis may even beat him out. From the mainstream fan Mike Tyson may get just as many votes in polls were done today.
wait shallow do you think tiger is the best athlete? (jus wonderin)
I refuse to call anyone the best athlete when their sport requires very little athleticism. He's definitely the best Golfer in his era and it's not even close but best athlete? No chance in hell. Give Pete Sampras or Steve Yzerman two years of training in Golf and I bet they can learn how to save for par against Tiger. Give Tiger Woods 5 years of training and let him go one on one with Sampras or last on the ice with Stevie Y. It'd be a complete joke.
Like I said, ive heard PLENTY of debate on greatest Baseball player of all time. Typically no one from our era is included in the conversation. But a player say, like Willie Mays definetely is. Babe Ruth is the greatest figure ever in baseball. His popularity in the sport pushes him above anyone. But skillwise Mays was ridiculous (best all around player ever), and you cant expect an African-American player who played during the middle of the century to be able to surpass Ruths popularity. The media and the American public would never have allowed it.
wow...notice how Daygo starts soundin like me when it works for his argument. "Babe Ruth was a bigger icon because of the media, but Mays was still better skillwise"...hmmmmmmm, sound familiar?....what a punk lol.
How stupid are you? Yeah because the media and fans nowadays are racist against Kobe but not MJ lol. If you think an African-American baseball player back then would receive the same love and respect from fans and media as the "Great Bambino" youre fuckin retarded lol.
MJ got more marketing and media attention than Kobe for reasons other than racism, you stupid moron. but my point stands. why the hell do i have to spell everything out for you? its like you have trouble getting things when it goes against your argument, LOL.
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Ruth and Mays, I'll argue that Mays was the better all around player,and since Ruth didn't play in an integrated league, I can't put him at top. From the Jackie Robinson era to the Jose Canseco is to me the purest era of baseball, and from that Mayes is the GOAT, so to me Mayes is the GOAT of baseball. Ruth had all the power, his pitches could have been clocked at over 100 in his prime if they had speed guns back then, and he could hit the ball a mile away. But in all around skills, speed, power, fielding, Mayes was the best ever, the best all around talent. But since they didn't play in the same era, we can never tell.
Mays may have been a better athlete but doesn't the fact that he couldn't pitch put him behind Ruth? And people seem to only remember the fat, out of shape 30s Ruth. He was a rock solid outdielder in the 20s. The guy was no DH by today's standards. I know the whole no black pitchers argument is used a lot with his numbers, but I could count the number of black pitchers Mays had to face on one hand.
Of course if we're talking all around we got to bring Cobb into the argument. The redords he had for the time he had them, entirely in the deal ball era, really truly are a great feat. But Baseball wants to forget him. Everytime someone bats over 400 mid season everyone talks about Williams for having that one 400 year season. Cobb had three 400 year seasons, could play anywhere on the field, and is still top 5 in most major categories. And despite the hatred he did get more votes than Ruth and anyone else for the Hall of Fame.
Could you really count the number of black pitchers Willie hit against in one hand, 'cause he was in the Negro Leagues too you know, and I'm sure he faced more than 5 black pitchers there.
You want to bring these older players into the fold, and that's cool, but lets face the facts, before Jackie, they never faced the best of the best. That's like the old school Lakers in basketball, they never faced the best, but at least the Lakers made up for it by playing the Globetrotters in 3 games. Also, Cobbs was in the dead ball period, which I'll give him is due as a great hitter in a era that was marked by low scoring, but it's hard to put anyone in the dead ball period as the best.
If you want to add Ruth, you have to add Bonds, then the argument gets really dicey. If Bonds never took steroids, his without doubt the best player of this era clear of dirty, and his top 10 all time. With steroids, his greatest ever. Like Ruth, his playing his era, Ruth was a great man, don't get me wrong, but his era of baseball is hard to accept, especially as a person who's not white and knows players that look like me would not be in the league at that time. I know Ruth was a more progressive figure, but the league was so tainted by hate that it's an era that saw two leagues and never would they cross paths.
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Ruth and Mays, I'll argue that Mays was the better all around player,and since Ruth didn't play in an integrated league, I can't put him at top. From the Jackie Robinson era to the Jose Canseco is to me the purest era of baseball, and from that Mayes is the GOAT, so to me Mayes is the GOAT of baseball. Ruth had all the power, his pitches could have been clocked at over 100 in his prime if they had speed guns back then, and he could hit the ball a mile away. But in all around skills, speed, power, fielding, Mayes was the best ever, the best all around talent. But since they didn't play in the same era, we can never tell.
Mays may have been a better athlete but doesn't the fact that he couldn't pitch put him behind Ruth? And people seem to only remember the fat, out of shape 30s Ruth. He was a rock solid outdielder in the 20s. The guy was no DH by today's standards. I know the whole no black pitchers argument is used a lot with his numbers, but I could count the number of black pitchers Mays had to face on one hand.
Of course if we're talking all around we got to bring Cobb into the argument. The redords he had for the time he had them, entirely in the deal ball era, really truly are a great feat. But Baseball wants to forget him. Everytime someone bats over 400 mid season everyone talks about Williams for having that one 400 year season. Cobb had three 400 year seasons, could play anywhere on the field, and is still top 5 in most major categories. And despite the hatred he did get more votes than Ruth and anyone else for the Hall of Fame.
Could you really count the number of black pitchers Willie hit against in one hand, 'cause he was in the Negro Leagues too you know, and I'm sure he faced more than 5 black pitchers there.
You want to bring these older players into the fold, and that's cool, but lets face the facts, before Jackie, they never faced the best of the best. That's like the old school Lakers in basketball, they never faced the best, but at least the Lakers made up for it by playing the Globetrotters in 3 games. Also, Cobbs was in the dead ball period, which I'll give him is due as a great hitter in a era that was marked by low scoring, but it's hard to put anyone in the dead ball period as the best.
If you want to add Ruth, you have to add Bonds, then the argument gets really dicey. If Bonds never took steroids, his without doubt the best player of this era clear of dirty, and his top 10 all time. With steroids, his greatest ever. Like Ruth, his playing his era, Ruth was a great man, don't get me wrong, but his era of baseball is hard to accept, especially as a person who's not white and knows players that look like me would not be in the league at that time. I know Ruth was a more progressive figure, but the league was so tainted by hate that it's an era that saw two leagues and never would they cross paths.
C'mon, dude was 20 years old when he joined the Majors. How much Negro League ball could he have played? I'm talking about the number of black pitchers he faced in the MLB. Now whether you want to take the blacks weren't allowed to pitch like they weren't allowed to QB argument or the blacks didn't cut it pitching like whites don't cut it at running and catching in Football is up to. The bottom line is after blacks were allowed join the MLB, when Mr Sey Hay joined, black pitchers were few and far between. I'd argue that if Ruth played between 51 and 71 with the added teams, no spitballers, live ball era, amphetimine pills and steroids that he would have taken like everyone else did, and next to zero black pitchers he would have had a lot more 714 HRs and a bunch of other boosted stats.
You seem to think when Jackie joined the whole league filled up with blacks and it was half and half. It took a long fucking time. So if Ruth had the advantage of avoiding black pitchers then so did Mays, and Aaron. Shit, Bonds started in the 80s. How many has he faced? Now it's hard to compare and this isn't a science or anything but let's look at Jackie Robinson. In 1945 at the age of 26 Jackie Robinson joined the KC Monarchs. He had 163 at bats, got 63 hits, with 14 doubles, 4 triples and 5 homeruns. All the while hitting .387 and stealing 13 bases. Two year later his first year with the Dodgers he had 590 at bats. That's 3.62 times more ABs. He only had 2.7x more hits, 2.2x more doubles, 1 more triple, and 2.4x more HRs. He averaged a .297 BA and only had double the steals. The next year was pretty similar in numbers. I'm not saying Robinson would have sure kept his pace.
There really is no telling how Ruth would have done in a fair open league like we have today (maybe), but there's also no telling how Mays would have done either. In 1975 the all time high number of blacks in the MLB was 28%. So whatever the reasons were the MLB was almost always a very white league. Even today it's at 60%. What do you think it was in the 50s when Mays started?