West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Don Rizzle on March 15, 2004, 09:57:20 AM
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Spain may withdraw Iraq troops
Spain has more than 1,300 troops in Iraq
Spain's Socialist Party prime minister-elect says he will pull troops out of Iraq - unless the UN takes charge.
Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said: "The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster."
He called for a grand international alliance against terror and an end to "unilateral wars".
The Socialists won a shock poll victory after voters appeared to turn on the government over its handling of the Madrid bombings that killed 200 people.
Revising our positions on Iraq after terrorist attacks would be to admit that terrorists are stronger and that they are right
Polish PM
Leszek Miller
Spanish troops' political role
Police are quizzing five men over the bombings, amid reports that one of them has links to a group blamed for attacks in Casablanca last May that killed 45 people.
Spain supported the US-led war on Iraq despite much domestic opposition. It currently has 1,300 troops in the Polish-led multinational force in the central-south sector.
Meanwhile, Poland - another key US ally - pledged to keep its 2,400 troops in Iraq. However, Polish Prime Minister Leszek Miller admitted the defeat of the Spanish conservatives could cause "very serious complications" for Warsaw.
"Revising our positions on Iraq after terrorist attacks would be to admit that terrorists are stronger and that they are right," Mr Miller told reporters in Tarnow.
Warsaw's ambassador to Nato, Jerzy Nowak, told Reuters news agency Poland was prepared to stay in charge of the 9,000-strong if Spain, which had been due to take over on 1 July, withdrew.
Iraq pull-out
At a news conference in Madrid, Mr Zapatero said his priority will be a "systematic fight against terrorism of all kinds".
He again reiterated his opposition to the US-led war in Iraq, but said his government would maintain what he described as "cordial relations" with Washington.
However Mr Zapatero said President Bush and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair needed to "engage in some self-criticism" over their decision to invade Iraq.
He made clear that he would withdraw Spanish troops in Iraq if the United Nations did not take charge of running the country.
He said the soldiers would be pulled out if there was no change in Iraq by the 30 June deadline for transfer of sovereignty.
"Wars such as those which have occurred in Iraq only allow hatred, violence and terror to proliferate," Mr Zapatero said earlier on Monday.
Our world affairs correspondent, Paul Reynolds, says that the situation in Iraq may well have changed by 30 June, but whether that influences the new government remains to be seen.
By then the US and UK hope that the Security Council will have given UN approval to the handover plan.
In addition the interim Iraqi government will be asking foreign troops to stay as part of a UN-approved multinational force.
Outsider
Socialists won 42% of the vote, while the centre-right Popular Party won 38% in Sunday's general election, held in the wake of the Madrid train bomb attacks that killed 200 people.
The BBC's Chris Morris, in Madrid, says the bombings did more than shock Spain to the core; they proved to be the decisive factor in the general election that ousted the government.
Mr Zapatero was - until Thursday's bombings - considered an outsider for Spain's top job.
Despite his party's victory, however, there is expected to be much political horse-trading because the Socialists did not win an absolute majority.
While Mr Zapatero said his first priority was to tackle terrorism "in all its forms", he is thought likely to do it in a very different way than the outgoing government.
A larger than expected 77% of the electorate turned out to vote in the wake of last Thursday's attacks.
Our correspondent says the late swing to the Socialists raises one disturbing thought - if al-Qaeda was responsible for Thursday's attacks, it appears to have had significant influence in changing the government of a leading Western democracy.
Investigations are continuing into who was behind the bombings.
A videotaped claim of responsibility by a man identifying himself as al-Qaeda's military spokesman in Europe forced the government to change its stance on the most likely suspects.
The tape - claiming revenge for Spain's "collaboration with the criminals Bush and his allies" - was found in a litter bin on Saturday following a tip-off to a TV station.
'Suspect has al-Qaeda link'
Three Moroccans and two Indians are being held in connection with the attacks.
The three Moroccans being held have been named as Jamal Zougam, 30, Mohamed Bekkali, 31, and Mohamed Chaoui, 34.
The two Indians arrested were named as Vinay Kohly and Suresh Kumar.
Spain's El Pais newspaper reported that investigators had found links between Jamal Zougam and the Salafia Jihadia group held responsible for attacks in Casablanca last May in which more than 40 people died.
One of the targets of the Moroccan attacks was a Spanish cultural centre, where four Spaniards were among the dead.
Reports also linked Jamal Zougam to a Spanish cell of al-Qaeda which was headed by Imad Eddin Barakat Yarkas, also known as "Abu Dahdah".
Abu Dahdah has been indicted by the Spanish anti-terrorist prosecutor Baltasar Garzon on charges relating to the preparation of the attacks of September 11, 2001 in the United States.
El Pais said Jamal Zougam was cited at two points in judge Garzon's indictment, but was not charged.
bbc
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Spain reminds me of a woman who's just been raped, and thinks it's her fault.
I think that this sets a dangerous precident: set off bombs and you can influence European elections. Not only did they just have the worst terrorist attack on their soil, but they've chosen also to impoverish themselves the time-tested elect-the-commies way. :-\
Another thing... So if all these anti-war peeps are right, that Al Qaeda has no connection to Iraq, WHY is the Madrid bombing attack attributed to al Qaeda for Spains help with the Iraq war?
Now that the Spaniards have shown they can be swayed (cowered) by bloodshed, I would expect some more bombings in the near future. This has got to be pretty scary to the Italians, French, and Germans as well.
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I think the main reason the government got ousted is because they were found out to be lying over the terrorist attacks. the prime minister was making personal phone calls to newspapers saying it was ETA, so that he wouldnt have to deal with people turning on him over iraq. If he had dealt with it right, i dont think there would've been such a reaction.
Where did i hear the phrase " its not the cock-up that angers people, its the cover-up of the cock-up". i think thats what happened here.
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This was never about Iraq, it was about Spain being a thorn in the side of Al-Qaeda. There are reports of links between the bombing suspects and those responsible for 9/11, so it's a pretty safe bet that these guys were planning on waging attacks on western targets simply because they were acting against terrorism, well in advance of the Iraq war, just as Bali was bombed. They just changed the schedule to fit their goals. If Al-Qaeda has any problems with Iraq, it wasn't that we had gone in, but that we're keeping them out.
To further the point, Spain has been doing a good job cracking down on local terrorist activities, and a Spanish judge also recently stated that he believed Iran was the new HQ for Al-Qaeda. Naturally, Al-Qaeda hasn't been too keen on the conservatives in Spanish government who have been so keen to go after them and point out suspected hiding places, so they decided to get them out of power by laying two traps: one for Prime Minister Aznar, and one for the Spanish voters.
The local Al-Qaeda knew that Aznar has always been hell-bent against the ETA, so they figured they'd first set up the attack to look similar to an ETA attack, particularly in using a similar type of explosive and targeting trains like ETA did on Christmas Eve. Predictably, Aznar blames the ETA and talks as much smack against them as possible as posturing before the electorate and the world.
The next step was to make a fool out of Aznar by disproving the very assertion they tricked him into making. As new evidence started coming out (cell phones attached to the unexploded bombs, etc.), they get a guy to tell the authorities where they can find the tape on which supposed Al-Qaeda operatives claim responsibility and use Iraq as the excuse. By this time, Aznar has realized his mistake and tries to stick to his earlier assertion for fear of losing face, but that just worsens his position as it looks less likely that ETA was wholly responsible. They might still have been partly responsible, but in the eyes of those against the Iraq War, the point is moot.
The final step is to just sit back and let the Spanish populace think that this attack was a direct result of the Iraq War, which most were already against. Of course this isn't true, but emotions wind up running high, and Aznar's earlier assertions, now deemed wrong, justify the sentiment among the anti-Iraq-war people that Aznar is a liar.
I wouldn't have so much a problem with the elections if the polls had shown the Socialists winning before the attack, or if their justification was only Anzar's spinning the attack as definitely ETA-related. However, the reason I've heard most often from the Spanish anti-Aznar folks is that they felt the Iraq war brought on these attacks, as was reiterated by the prime-minister elect today. The truth, however, is that Al-Qaeda pulled a bait-and-switch on all of them, and they fell for it.
However you feel about this election, keep in mind that Al-Qaeda accomplished exactly what they wanted. That is never a good thing.
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Al Qaeda did not change the Spanish government, the Spanish people did, its called democracy. They were ignored and lied to, 90% were against the war in Iraq and they were ignored. The terrorist attacks made many people vote who would not have, and made people think about the illegal war in Iraq that they did not support and voted for the opposition.
If Al Qaeda did try to make it look like ETA did the bombings then they did not do a very good job it was unlike anything ETA have ever done and on a bigger scale, and was very similar to other Al Qaeda attacks. Right from the start most of the media were saying it looked very much like Al Qaeda. Aznar wanted it to be ETA as it would be less damaging politically so rushed to the wrong conclusion looking into the facts.
So if all these anti-war peeps are right, that Al Qaeda has no connection to Iraq, WHY is the Madrid bombing attack attributed to al Qaeda for Spains help with the Iraq war?
Al Qaeda had no connection to Iraq before the war, now they have. The war in Iraq has increased terrorism, Spain was targeted because of Its support for the war in Iraq.
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So.... America lost a 'close ally' in the war against terrorism. I thought we didn't have any allies, and it was unilateral?
LIBERALS NEED TO GET THEIR SHIT STRAIGHT. Pick 1 argument, and stick with it. You can't play both sides of the issues.
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they clearly had two allies, but went against the main multi-lateral organisation. make sense?
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Iraq was never connected to AL Qaeda. But the invasion connects the two. Way to go, dubya
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Iraq was never connected to AL Qaeda. But the invasion connects the two. Way to go, dubya
Thats the most backward logic I've ever heard.
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If it wasn't the Iraq excuse, it'd be because of Al-Qaeda didn't like the weather in spain. If it was sunny that day, it'd be because they got up on the wrong side of the bed. If that didn't happen, it'd be something else. You don't understand that these fucks kill because it's WHAT THEY DO. They won't rest untill the entire world is some sort of Islamic "paradise"
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That is incorrect thinking. Al Qaeda is the most extreme twisted response to percieved persecution and oppression. This is revenge and anger in its most vile form. Its the hate you create. And the links between the Baathists and Al Qaedia types was nil, now you have every abdul mohamed and ali flocking to iraq to pick off Americans.
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To stress, this idea that they are attacking the "freedoms" and all that jazz is crap. Its meant to do 2 things:
1- Mobilize popular support for military actions
2- Cover up their own role in these messes. Its inconcievable how not once has these american media outlets asked why 9/11 happened? What has our govt done to warrant such a response? Cover up your own tracks but focusing on the enemy. Smart tactic
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LOL! You Moron!
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The most twisted logic I've ever seen. He can't even condemn the bombing of trains in Spain, it's somehow the U.S.'s fault that these people KILL people. I don't really give a fuck if they all flood Iraq taking pot shots, because for every 1 american they kill, we're killing 200 or more of them, so bring them on. We're getting the population problems sorted out, send those evil bastards to hell where they belong, we're done with them here.
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Put simply ... Iraq wasnt connected with al-queda
when the u.s and their small group of allies attacked iraq it gave al queda a rallying point. people in the middle east (and elsewhere) saw it as an attack on islam, and therefore their anger turned against the 3 country coalition (just as americans anger turned to afghanistan after 911). So when al queda attacked spain it was a direct result of their involvement in Iraq. Now considering that there were huge protests in spain over the war in iraq, an attack like this was always going to resurface those concerns. The spanish governments attempt to cover-up the incident has resulted in them being evicted from office. I would also like to offer my condolences to the families of the deceased, one of the girls i work with is from madrid and knows people whose family died. It was a tradgedy, and those responsible should pay.
As for "LIBERALS NEED TO GET THEIR SHIT STRAIGHT"... maybe you should get it straight. The US's only remaining ally in the war (blair) is leader of the labour party, the british liberal, left wing party. Your black and white portrayal of the events doesnt fit.
Also if you look at the arguments before the war, you may see some of the prophecies like "your stirring a bees nest", and "your provoking more people to turn to extremism" are starting to come true. It's a worrying trend and hopefully in the future policies will be made with this in mind.
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It is funny to me how you idiots are saying that Spain was bombed because of its support for the Iraq war. That is complete BS. Muslim extremists are just using the Iraqi war as an excuse for their violent, religious fundamentalism. They have been commiting savage terrorist acts long before the Iraqi war (September 11th, USS Cole, Israel, Chechnya) and they have been recently commiting savage terrorist attacks in countries that never expressed support for the Iraq war (Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Bali).
These terrorists will always have different excuses for why they go around killing innocent people. Remember, Al-Quada's previous excuse was that they wanted American troops out of Saudi Arabia. Well that has happened, so they have moved on to the next excuse. Basically they are going to keep coming up with as many reasons as possible so they can kill anyone who isn't Muslim.
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^ Luckily, our guns are bigger, though, and our troops stronger, better prepared, and more intelligent. So they can fight us as much as they want, it's their funeral. We should just take over IRaq, and set up a big military base, and let them attack us... we'll pick them all off by the dozens, until there's nobody brave enough to attack. Then we'll pursue their evil asses into the countries they reside in, if they won't come to us.
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The most twisted logic I've ever seen. He can't even condemn the bombing of trains in Spain, it's somehow the U.S.'s fault that these people KILL people. I don't really give a fuck if they all flood Iraq taking pot shots, because for every 1 american they kill, we're killing 200 or more of them, so bring them on. We're getting the population problems sorted out, send those evil bastards to hell where they belong, we're done with them here.
Trauma, the reason why you remain ignorant is because you are unable to be specific in your thinking. You think very generally. The object of dispute here is the reasoning or motive behind Al Qaeda's actions. We are not discussing whether the Madrid bombings were a good act or bad. Thus there is no need for me to start condemning the act. I dont hound you in every Palestinian thread demanding you type RIP every time a Palestinian kid takes a bullet in the head. So please, just because I believe that Al Qaeda's beef is a political one wrapped in religious linen because it is convinient to their cause doesnt mean I cheerlead them and wack off when a bunch of Spanish folks get murdered.
Why wasnt there systematic suicide bombings and military uprising in Palestine in say 1925 or 1935? There was a large Jewish community in Palestine, and even a British administration? If Muslims are inherently evil and anti West, why is it that when their land is occupied and their human rights and dignity is not respected that they retaliate like this?
Why didnt they do it before.
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It is funny to me how you idiots are saying that Spain was bombed because of its support for the Iraq war. That is complete BS. Muslim extremists are just using the Iraqi war as an excuse for their violent, religious fundamentalism. They have been commiting savage terrorist acts long before the Iraqi war (September 11th, USS Cole, Israel, Chechnya) and they have been recently commiting savage terrorist attacks in countries that never expressed support for the Iraq war (Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Bali).
These terrorists will always have different excuses for why they go around killing innocent people. Remember, Al-Quada's previous excuse was that they wanted American troops out of Saudi Arabia. Well that has happened, so they have moved on to the next excuse. Basically they are going to keep coming up with as many reasons as possible so they can kill anyone who isn't Muslim.
Among Al Qaedas general beefs, one of them was the presence of American soldiers in Saudi. The biggest reason was the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, and American indifference to suffering in Chechnya, Kashmir and Iraq.
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Among Al Qaedas general beefs, one of them was the presence of American soldiers in Saudi. The biggest reason was the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, and American indifference to suffering in Chechnya, Kashmir and Iraq.
Shut the fuck up with that bullshit. You know damn well you're spitting out lies and deciet. Al-queda's beef is with anbody who dosen't support their brand of hatefull Islam.
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Funnily enough engelwood, that was the exact point i was trying to make. "Muslim extremists are just using the Iraqi war as an excuse for their violent, religious fundamentalism"
That is exactly what i mean by it being a result of the iraq war. extremists are using it as an excuse and striking out at those who they see as being part of that coalition. I dont know what the argument here is.
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Here's the argument:
These people are so ignorant and violent, that if it wasn't the Iraq war, it'd be something else completely.
So why take their bait and say it was the War's fault? If there wasn't a war, it'd be something else. If it wasn't something else, it'd be something else alltogether.
Blaming the war just seems like a way to advance your personal political views and goals
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Yeah, definately I agree that if it wasnt iraq it would be something else. But the point i'm making is I don't think it would be spain which would have been targeted, if the reason was something else.
I'm not advancing my political beliefs by blaming the war. The simple fact however is that in the eyes of these violent and ignorant people spain was ignorant by association. My political view were that the war was fought under the wrong premise, and that it could do more harm than good. I feel that bombings like this show that due to the anger which was provoked by this war, al queda have been handed extra justification and more excuses in their eyes to go after western states.
Do you believe spain would have been targeted had they not gone to war? It's a possibility, sure, but the odds are against it.
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I believe that Al Qaeda's beef is a political one wrapped in religious linen because it is convinient to their cause
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Are you kidding? The Odds are aginst it?
Al-queda will attack any western target that they can. They hate any country that cracks down on terrorism or isn't an islamic State. It's ignorant to think just because Spain supported the USA that they are a target. ANY NON-ISLAMIC COUNTRY IS A TARGET.
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Yes, they will attack any western state. But the fact is britain and spain are the two countries which have the biggest targets on their heads because of their involvement. Its not right, it's just a fact.
The news said this morning al queda said they will suspend attacks on spain as the new government said they will withdraw troops.
Worrying, but showing that they are using iraq as an excuse.
What I mean the odds are against it, is that it was always more likely spain or britain would be targeted instead of france or germany.
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Are you kidding? The Odds are aginst it?
Al-queda will attack any western target that they can. They hate any country that cracks down on terrorism or isn't an islamic State. It's ignorant to think just because Spain supported the USA that they are a target. ANY NON-ISLAMIC COUNTRY IS A TARGET.
what a cop out
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COP OUT?
It's true. You know it, Don't try and stick up for bullshit you know is false.
You're one warped ass individual!