West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Matty on April 28, 2010, 06:50:46 AM
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by Dyske Suematsu
In Japan, seniority is a big deal. If someone is even a few years older, you are supposed to address him respectfully. That never jived with me when I was living in Japan. Do we automatically become respectable as we get older? I didn’t think so, but whenever I mentioned this to adults, they would always tell me that I would understand it someday when I too am older. Well, I’m older now (37), and I can tell you that so far I haven’t been proven wrong. I am beginning to be convinced that those adults were full of it.
Have you ever wondered why so many senior citizens are so stupid? Have you ever wondered why most people cannot relate to their parents when describing what they do in their lives? People often say, “But my parents would never understand that.” This becomes especially problematic when the topics are highly cultural like arts, philosophy, and science. If you think about it logically, why should this be true? If your father is 60 years old and if you are 30, then you would think he would be twice as wise and knowledgeable than you are, but this is rarely the case. Even if I am not qualified to judge people older than I am, I can tell you that among the people of my own age, some of them are already getting dumber than they were before.
The most common explanation to that is that, as you get older, it becomes harder to learn new things. Well, nice excuse. Even though it is very rare, you do meet seniors who are literally twice as wise and knowledgeable. For instance, I had personally known John Cage the composer, and it was quite clear, his mind was far superior to mine. I have met or corresponded with several others too, and they are usually people who pursue something other than their jobs.
This means that while some people progressively get wiser and more knowledgeable, the vast majority of others get progressively dumber. The gap between them must be huge. For those who kept improving themselves, the rest of the people of their own age must appear completely foreign to them, like talking to teenagers. So, why does this happen? And, when does this start happening? I think it starts happening in our 30s. Why it happens is a more complicated story.
In our 20s, we are all idealistic. There is nothing wrong with idealism, except that, in our 20s, we are idealistic and naive at the same time. In other words, our heads are running far ahead of our emotions. We can deal well with logical problems in our lives, but more complex emotional problems are beyond our capacities. This starts to flip in our 30s. As we start to lose our logical capacities, our emotions continue to mature, but the problem is that emotional maturity devoid of logical intelligence is no better than having a big head and a small heart. On top of losing logical capacities, we also lose physical capacities too; so the odds are against us. Furthermore, if you have a problem with substance abuse like alcoholism, it hinders even your emotional maturity. So, all three components start to deteriorate. If you keep going in that direction for 30 years, the result is an utterly dumb, boring senior citizen.
In order to prevent this from happening, we must make a conscious effort to keep our minds and bodies in best shape possible. Our emotions will keep on maturing as long as we face our lives courageously. Even though our logical and physical capacities are decreasing, as we get wiser, we become much more efficient in learning. We no longer make obvious mistakes, and nothing we learn is entirely new. Our knowledge from other areas can expedite our learning process. These advantages can easily make up for the disadvantages, and it becomes possible to actually be twice as wise and knowledgeable as a 30 year old when we turn 60.
When I was a 7th grader, my math teacher answered an obvious but difficult question: Why do we have to study things like geometry, algebra, and trigonometry, if we are never going to use them in our adult lives? He said it is because we haven’t used those parts of our brains. The same parts can do wonderful things other than geometry, algebra, and trigonometry. With this short explanation, he utterly convinced me the importance of studying math, and of any other subjects for that matter.
The same logic still applies in our old age. Any connections in our brains left unused will eventually fall apart. Seemingly unrelated and irrelevant subjects like calculus could reinforce these unused connections. The science shows that the connections we frequently use can stay strong all our lives, and the aspects of our intelligence that use those parts of our brains could stay razor-sharp even in our old age.
But all this still does not explain why some choose to improve themselves and others to let it all go down hill. I actually have no answer for that. All I can tell you is that, in our 30s, we all seem to come to some conclusions about what life is. Having reached our physical and logical heights of our lives in our late 20s, we can now see the entire mountain in perspective. We can even see the other side of that mountain (senior citizens’ homes in Florida). This understanding of life is unspeakable and different for everyone. Some then decide that life is about comfort. They strive only to have a good life, eat good food, travel to exotic places, have a happy relationship, live in a comfortable house, have healthy kids, enjoy entertainment, etc.. They maintain only the parts of their brains that are necessary to maintain or increase their comfort levels, mainly the skills required for their jobs.
Others decide that there is more to life than being comfortable. They realize that a higher understanding of life is always possible, that there is in fact more to that mountain than what we see in perspective. The meaning of life, for these people, becomes sheer curiosity about life. I already see people around me splitting into these two separate paths. The longer the time passes, the more difficult it becomes to relate to those who took the other path, but we meet more new people along the way, who happen to come across your path from entirely different direction.
Now I see why those adults insisted that older people are respectable. Being concerned only with comfort, they just gave me an answer that would make them more comfortable.
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So that's why everybody starts to get married around that age.
But seriously, I always thought the cause was the lack of education of the previous generation in comparison to the next generation but the argument about how if we don't use certain parts in our brain they will decline in power really makes sense.
Not saying I'm dismissing my belief, I'm saying their both right.
Interesting read, thanks for sharing.
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So that's why everybody starts to get married around that age.
But seriously, I always thought the cause was the lack of education of the previous generation in comparison to the next generation but the argument about how if we don't use certain parts in our brain they will decline in power really makes sense.
Not saying I'm dismissing my belief, I'm saying their both right.
Interesting read, thanks for sharing.
np. its been something i've been pondering a lot recently. in particular, why aren't older people in general that much more knowledgable, wiser and on the ball than us young'uns. they certainly could be, or should be. conclusion - stupidity in earlier years just gets amplified and exaggerated if you don't make an active effort to better yourself and stay sharp in the long run. old people aren't stupid because they are old, they're stupid because they let themselves become stupid or were just stupid in the first place.
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Matty, +1, EXCELLENT article.
I've tried to live my life in a state of continuous growth, the path that the author has advocated for in this article. I want to share my personal story as it relates to this article...
...In the article the author says growth and maturity stops at 30 for many people, but I would argue that I noticed a change much earlier, I noticed it right when I started high school.
When I was in Jr. High life was always fresh, new, and exciting. The kids a hung out with, kids in the neighborhood and at school, were always open and pushing for new ideas and creativity. From our relationships with girls, friends, music we listened to, things we did, places we went. Everybody was growing and maturing in exciting ways it seemed. Whenever life got boring I could just look around and find something fresh and new out there. It was still cool at that time to be unique.
Then suddenly, when I reached high school and age 15 came, everything had turned on it's head, and immediately I felt uncomfortable and hated my new life. Conformity and comfort suddenly became fashionable. It became a huge negative in society to seek growth and maturity, or to push for new idea's and paths.
This only got worse as I got older, as the article indicates. My first time getting drunk was when I was 15. I remember my friends and I would brag about drinking on the weekends, and things we did that went along with it; and it was a cool thing for a moment. But then, I looked at guys in their 20's, and noticed they were bragging about the exact same thing, then I looked at people in their 30's and they were bragging about doing the exact same thing, and in their 40's people were into the exact same thing, and on and on. Till I got out of highschool and the kids I grew up with were actually going to bars and hanging out with each others parents and coaches and there was really no difference in the growth, maturity, and intelligence of the 20 year old and the 30, 40, and 50 year old.
For me, I always saw life as a continuous growth process. The things you are interested and excited about should always move forward in a continuous progression of your personal evolution. You should always be smarter next year then the year before, you should always be wiser, finding new interests and pursuits, and so on.
I'm not saying that if you find something good you shouldn't stick with it. You should always follow your passion. But in following your passion there should be continuous growth in it.
For example, you could take an artist like Eminem and I seriously loved seeing his growth from Infinite album, to SSLP, to MMLP, to Eminem Show and on into 8 Mile. And then suddenly... it was like the dude stopped growing and on RELAPSE he became a child again. It was very disappointing. I just use that as an example so people can understand where I'm coming from.
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That article is a bit unfair. We have moved towards a more post-modern society, today's old people are definitely not the same as 1920s old people. When we're that age, it will be very different. It's been easier to "exercise" your mind these days because there are a ton of resources out there. Sure, some might be bullshit but at least your mind is working. Plus, time is a huge factor in "exercising" your mind. You have people that work every day in a hard working job, when they get home they just want to relax because they're simply just providing for the family. They're worried about paying the bills. They're worried about their kids. There isn't any time to be keeping your mind fresh.
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Matty, +1, EXCELLENT article.
I've tried to live my life in a state of continuous growth, the path that the author has advocated for in this article. I want to share my personal story as it relates to this article...
...In the article the author says growth and maturity stops at 30 for many people, but I would argue that I noticed a change much earlier, I noticed it right when I started high school.
When I was in Jr. High life was always fresh, new, and exciting. The kids a hung out with, kids in the neighborhood and at school, were always open and pushing for new ideas and creativity. From our relationships with girls, friends, music we listened to, things we did, places we went. Everybody was growing and maturing in exciting ways it seemed. Whenever life got boring I could just look around and find something fresh and new out there. It was still cool at that time to be unique.
Then suddenly, when I reached high school and age 15 came, everything had turned on it's head, and immediately I felt uncomfortable and hated my new life. Conformity and comfort suddenly became fashionable. It became a huge negative in society to seek growth and maturity, or to push for new idea's and paths.
This only got worse as I got older, as the article indicates. My first time getting drunk was when I was 15. I remember my friends and I would brag about drinking on the weekends, and things we did that went along with it; and it was a cool thing for a moment. But then, I looked at guys in their 20's, and noticed they were bragging about the exact same thing, then I looked at people in their 30's and they were bragging about doing the exact same thing, and in their 40's people were into the exact same thing, and on and on. Till I got out of highschool and the kids I grew up with were actually going to bars and hanging out with each others parents and coaches and there was really no difference in the growth, maturity, and intelligence of the 20 ye
ar old and the 30, 40, and 50 year old.
For me, I always saw life as a continuous growth process. The things you are interested and excited about should always move forward in a continuous progression of your personal evolution. You should always be smarter next year then the year before, you should always be wiser, finding new interests and pursuits, and so on.
I'm not saying that if you find something good you shouldn't stick with it. You should always follow your passion. But in following your passion there should be continuous growth in it.
For example, you could take an artist like Eminem and I seriously loved seeing his growth from Infinite album, to SSLP, to MMLP, to Eminem Show and on into 8 Mile. And then suddenly... it was like the dude stopped growing and on RELAPSE he became a child again. It was very disappointing. I just use that as an example so people can understand where I'm coming from.
Can you teach me how to make those long ass posts saying something that could fit into 1 or 2 sentences?
No Offence.
On Topic:
You say it starts earlier because you see people from allot of age groups bragging about the same immature activities.
In your teens you develop your individuality, the difference between people becomes more obvious therefore you talk about subjects the others can relate to.
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In my opinion it's because as the writer states in the 20's people are brimming with enthusiasm and idealism. When someone hits their 30's though, that idealistic energy which has driven their beliefs, their outlook, their person, has waned as they become increasingly cynical about the world around them and fall victim to a state of apathy. The apathy sees them lose the will to strive for more, whether in life, or in knowledge and instead become somewhat immersed and malaised with base level things which although have no real consequence to them, it's an outlet of sorts for their mind. Unfortunately though when forego this learning, their senses, critical thinking and just general mindstate becomes very rigid and their mind becomes much more vegetative, because if you don't use it, you lose it. I guess the big challenge is to battle against this social trapping but of course as far as marriage is concerned, it becomes a social norm, having kids, is a social norm and with that comes responsibilities and to an extent these will alter someones outlook on life.
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Really? This doesn't make sense at all because kids are way more ignorant than adults
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My overall impression is that most people are stupid or ignorant in many ways and can be lovable and understanding in many others. But regarding the stupidity, I see it with young and old in equal proportions.
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Can you teach me how to make those long ass posts saying something that could fit into 1 or 2 sentences?
No Offence.
I was explaining the process of how I had came to the same conclusion as the author of the article. I don't think my explanation was too long.
On Topic:
You say it starts earlier because you see people from allot of age groups bragging about the same immature activities.
In your teens you develop your individuality, the difference between people becomes more obvious therefore you talk about subjects the others can relate to.
I don't think that it is a matter of just talking about common activities to relate to one another. I understand the use of that. There's a lot of people I talk with about sports because it's hard to relate to them on any other subjects. So I know drinking alcohol, for example, is a common past time a lot of people can relate to at different ages.
But it's more than that. You can see the expression on a person's face change as they get older. They slowly become less open, set in their ways, and it is very difficult for them to continue to receive new idea's without becoming anxious. They do become less intelligent, and often more immature. I mean, look at the phenomenon of television shows with the father or adult male figure acting like a child all the time. That show "Jim", "Kings of Queens", "Simpsons", "Family Guy", Tim Allen's characters, Adam Sandlers characters, I could go on and on... it's became a cultural phenomenon in America especially.
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In my opinion it's because as the writer states in the 20's people are brimming with enthusiasm and idealism. When someone hits their 30's though, that idealistic energy which has driven their beliefs, their outlook, their person, has waned as they become increasingly cynical about the world around them and fall victim to a state of apathy. The apathy sees them lose the will to strive for more, whether in life, or in knowledge and instead become somewhat immersed and malaised with base level things which although have no real consequence to them, it's an outlet of sorts for their mind. Unfortunately though when forego this learning, their senses, critical thinking and just general mindstate becomes very rigid and their mind becomes much more vegetative, because if you don't use it, you lose it. I guess the big challenge is to battle against this social trapping but of course as far as marriage is concerned, it becomes a social norm, having kids, is a social norm and with that comes responsibilities and to an extent these will alter someones outlook on life.
That's a good explanation of what happens for a lot of people as they age. It's also a part of the cognitive dissonance theory, where people shut down and eventually stop allowing any contradictory information into their system; while in youth we may still be in a process of building our identity. However, I think it would be more healthy to keep up that process of building an identity, because life is always changing around us, and we must continue to learn new things and adapt as new information is always coming in.
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Can you teach me how to make those long ass posts saying something that could fit into 1 or 2 sentences?
No Offence.
I was explaining the process of how I had came to the same conclusion as the author of the article. I don't think my explanation was too long.
On Topic:
You say it starts earlier because you see people from allot of age groups bragging about the same immature activities.
In your teens you develop your individuality, the difference between people becomes more obvious therefore you talk about subjects the others can relate to.
I don't think that it is a matter of just talking about common activities to relate to one another. I understand the use of that. There's a lot of people I talk with about sports because it's hard to relate to them on any other subjects. So I know drinking alcohol, for example, is a common past time a lot of people can relate to at different ages.
But it's more than that. You can see the expression on a person's face change as they get older. They slowly become less open, set in their ways, and it is very difficult for them to continue to receive new idea's without becoming anxious. They do become less intelligent, and often more immature. I mean, look at the phenomenon of television shows with the father or adult male figure acting like a child all the time. That show "Jim", "Kings of Queens", "Simpsons", "Family Guy", Tim Allen's characters, Adam Sandlers characters, I could go on and on... it's became a cultural phenomenon in America especially.
lol....tv shows don't reflect reality. Most fathers aren't retards, and if they are I suspect they started out as such. Fyi, fat, stupid guys don't usually pull the hot chicks either. Your Eminem example doesn't make sense either. An album doesn't reflect a rapper's personality either, it reflects what they believe will appeal to their audience at the time.
I'll agree on the point that people become more set in their ways....but that's because they have a lot more knowledge than younger people. They've spent an entire lifetime learning things a certain way and you expect them to suddenly change because you say something different? Younger people may have a greater capacity for learning, but that's because they are more ignorant and know less to begin with.
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lol....tv shows don't reflect reality. Most fathers aren't retards, and if they are I suspect they started out as such. Fyi, fat, stupid guys don't usually pull the hot chicks either. Your Eminem example doesn't make sense either. An album doesn't reflect a rapper's personality either, it reflects what they believe will appeal to their audience at the time.
I'm not saying he's supposed to start rapping with a higher vocabulary or start playing a fucking guitar like CheesyWeezy or something like that. The point I was making is that a person can show growth and maturity not just by changing from one thing to another thing, but also from following the same path or passion and developing and furthering themselves in that area. AND BY THE WAY EMINEM JUST CONFIRMED WHAT I'M SAYING IF YOU LISTEN TO HIS LEAD SINGLE "NOT AFRAID" HE ADMITS RELAPSE WAS A STEP BACK AND THAT IT WAS "EH".
I'll agree on the point that people become more set in their ways....but that's because they have a lot more knowledge than younger people. They've spent an entire lifetime learning things a certain way and you expect them to suddenly change because you say something different? Younger people may have a greater capacity for learning, but that's because they are more ignorant and know less to begin with.
No, I don't expect them to suddenly change, if something is working for them, they should keep doing it. However, I don't expect adults to show as much apathy as they do, and get that glossed over anxious look anytime someone says or does something that doesn't fit squarely into their settled ways.
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So that's why everybody starts to get married around that age.
But seriously, I always thought the cause was the lack of education of the previous generation in comparison to the next generation but the argument about how if we don't use certain parts in our brain they will decline in power really makes sense.
Not saying I'm dismissing my belief, I'm saying their both right.
Interesting read, thanks for sharing.
I agree with u. Ive always felt its a combination of the two. As people get older they find ways to make their lives easier and have to use their brains less. When you combine that with the fact that every generation SHOULD be smarter than the last, it makes sense. We will always learn off of the previous generation. You can relate it to sports even. In every generation, the athletes will be better than the previous generation. Even the greats of 40 years ago would be nowhere near as great if they played now. Because current athletes have learned from them, as well as incorporated techniques to improve training, etc.
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lol....tv shows don't reflect reality. Most fathers aren't retards, and if they are I suspect they started out as such. Fyi, fat, stupid guys don't usually pull the hot chicks either. Your Eminem example doesn't make sense either. An album doesn't reflect a rapper's personality either, it reflects what they believe will appeal to their audience at the time.
I'm not saying he's supposed to start rapping with a higher vocabulary or start playing a fucking guitar like CheesyWeezy or something like that. The point I was making is that a person can show growth and maturity not just by changing from one thing to another thing, but also from following the same path or passion and developing and furthering themselves in that area. AND BY THE WAY EMINEM JUST CONFIRMED WHAT I'M SAYING IF YOU LISTEN TO HIS LEAD SINGLE "NOT AFRAID" HE ADMITS RELAPSE WAS A STEP BACK AND THAT IT WAS "EH".
You just proved my point. Em made it because he thought people would want that kind of Eminem but they didn't and now he's admitting it. That has zilch to do with his intelligence level or this discussion.
The guy raps about celebrities and killing people, things he doesn't do in his real life. ITS A MARKETING TOOL USED TO SELL RECORDS. It's not a personal reflection on his state of mind or intelligence.
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Can you teach me how to make those long ass posts saying something that could fit into 1 or 2 sentences?
No Offence.
I was explaining the process of how I had came to the same conclusion as the author of the article. I don't think my explanation was too long.
On Topic:
You say it starts earlier because you see people from allot of age groups bragging about the same immature activities.
In your teens you develop your individuality, the difference between people becomes more obvious therefore you talk about subjects the others can relate to.
I don't think that it is a matter of just talking about common activities to relate to one another. I understand the use of that. There's a lot of people I talk with about sports because it's hard to relate to them on any other subjects. So I know drinking alcohol, for example, is a common past time a lot of people can relate to at different ages.
But it's more than that. You can see the expression on a person's face change as they get older. They slowly become less open, set in their ways, and it is very difficult for them to continue to receive new idea's without becoming anxious. They do become less intelligent, and often more immature. I mean, look at the phenomenon of television shows with the father or adult male figure acting like a child all the time. That show "Jim", "Kings of Queens", "Simpsons", "Family Guy", Tim Allen's characters, Adam Sandlers characters, I could go on and on... it's became a cultural phenomenon in America especially.
lol....tv shows don't reflect reality. Most fathers aren't retards, and if they are I suspect they started out as such. Fyi, fat, stupid guys don't usually pull the hot chicks either. Your Eminem example doesn't make sense either. An album doesn't reflect a rapper's personality either, it reflects what they believe will appeal to their audience at the time.
I'll agree on the point that people become more set in their ways....but that's because they have a lot more knowledge than younger people. They've spent an entire lifetime learning things a certain way and you expect them to suddenly change because you say something different? Younger people may have a greater capacity for learning, but that's because they are more ignorant and know less to begin with.
i think what you said in that second paragraph can be used to demonstrate some of these arguments about older people. the idea that older people become set in their ways because they are more knoweledgable. it's a decent enough concept, but flawed in the sense that concrete ideologies become increasingly problematic in a dynamic and changing world, which is certainly what we live in. at the same time, young people may in fact be 'ignorant', but there's nothing wrong with this ignorance if it precipitates a state of humbleness where we want to learn more about the world. i very much subscribe to the view of the more we learn, the less we really know. for adults to get 'set in their ways' because they amassed a certain level of knowledge or information - i'd call this culturally justified laziness and/or arrogance more than anything else.
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arrogance >>> ignorance
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You just proved my point. Em made it because he thought people would want that kind of Eminem but they didn't and now he's admitting it. That has zilch to do with his intelligence level or this discussion.
The guy raps about celebrities and killing people, things he doesn't do in his real life. ITS A MARKETING TOOL USED TO SELL RECORDS. It's not a personal reflection on his state of mind or intelligence.
First of all you make it sound like Eminem's music is only one big giant marketing scheme, which is far from the truth. And even if it was the truth, it doesn't mean that it would work. You can't just sell with a good marketing scheme if your music sounds like shit. Eminem didn't sell 50 million something records in his career just because of good marketing...at some point it was talent, passion, and artistic creativity that made him what he was.
Also, there are many ways for an artist or person to show growth in their life. For example, a rapper could become wiser and rap about more adult issues as a sign of his growth. Similar to Masta Ace, if you compare his Sittin On Chrome (which was about partying and being a player) to his Disposable Arts album which he made later in his career (which was about adult issues and reflection on life). Both were dope albums, and both represented growth at different points in his life and career.
Another way a rap artist could show growth could have less to do with more mature subject matter, but rather a more mature sound and greater overall quality in their music. For example, Dr. Dre on Efil4Zaggin with NWA was rappin about mostly the same shit as he was on The Chronic, and both albums were dope. Yet the Chronic represented a growth in his skills as a producer, the overall sound of his music; and to this day the album is one of the greatest classics hip-hop has ever produced.
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Em is a rapper that has a lot of talent, I never said he didn't. But his subject matter IS a marketing gimmick. Do you think if he had made only serious music he would have sold even half the records? I remember when Em first came out and all people could talk about was how controversial he was. It's the reason every teen in America loved him when he came out. His shocking lyrics MADE his career, period point blank. It's only now that people are tired of it that they want something serious from him.
And besides that, your tracking of the progression of his albums is completely off. It's not like he's been growing intellectually this whole time and suddenly reverted with Relapse. His first record Infinite was actually his most serious. MM is probably his most childish, and yet its considered his best record.
To anyone paying attention, it should come as no coincidence that his new song "Not Afraid" is similar to "Beautiful", his most successful record off of Relapse. He makes records based on whether they will be popular. I can guarantee you that if the audience had wanted the immature Eminem, he would have made another silly song.
All this is moot, because the point I am making here is that a commercial album is not a reflection of a person's personal growth or mental capacity. Dr. Dre is not all about fucking hoes and slapping bitches. He's a family man for crying out loud. Eminem does not go around murdering people. The personality of an album is not the same as the personality of the person deciding to make that record. Its an entirely different thing. Of course someone's mind state CAN have an influence on their music, but you SHOULDN'T ASSUME so, especially in Eminem's case where the silly/shocking records are made on purpose to appeal to people.
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Em is a rapper that has a lot of talent, I never said he didn't. But his subject matter IS a marketing gimmick. Do you think if he had made only serious music he would have sold even half the records? I remember when Em first came out and all people could talk about was how controversial he was. It's the reason every teen in America loved him when he came out. His shocking lyrics MADE his career, period point blank. It's only now that people are tired of it that they want something serious from him.
And besides that, your tracking of the progression of his albums is completely off. It's not like he's been growing intellectually this whole time and suddenly reverted with Relapse. His first record Infinite was actually his most serious. MM is probably his most childish, and yet its considered his best record.
To anyone paying attention, it should come as no coincidence that his new song "Not Afraid" is similar to "Beautiful", his most successful record off of Relapse. He makes records based on whether they will be popular. I can guarantee you that if the audience had wanted the immature Eminem, he would have made another silly song.
All this is moot, because the point I am making here is that a commercial album is not a reflection of a person's personal growth or mental capacity. Dr. Dre is not all about fucking hoes and slapping bitches. He's a family man for crying out loud. Eminem does not go around murdering people. The personality of an album is not the same as the personality of the person deciding to make that record. Its an entirely different thing. Of course someone's mind state CAN have an influence on their music, but you SHOULDN'T ASSUME so, especially in Eminem's case where the silly/shocking records are made on purpose to appeal to people.
Say whatever the hell you want homie, but I know when I listen to Eminem's music from 96-2003 that what he was spittin was real. When it's real you can feel it. And maybe you didn't understand it cause it wasn't for you, but a lot of people felt like they could relate to his music. The marketing aspect was never a "gimmick" it was all artistic as well. The look of his video's and photography all built up his character as a rapper and presented himself artistically in a way that was real, and related to his true fans. Your just not a real fan so you missed all of it.
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Who are you to say I'm not a real fan? I've been listening to Em since he came out. How old are you and when did you start listening to him? A real fan can enjoy his music but at the same time take a step back and realize that his controversial image is a marketing tool. How exactly do you relate to his music? Do you relate to killing bitches, being homicidal and acting insane? Because that is the basis of the character he built up starting with the Slim Shady lp. Or do you mean you only relate to the songs when he is being serious. He has made serious songs, but the majority of his music has been for shock value. Hell, Em even admits this in his own lyrics when he has to constantly remind you he is just joking. You don't seriously believe half his lyrics do you? Because if you do, the song stan is talking about you.
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See homie, that's why I say you don't really understand Eminem or aren't a true fan when you say the Slim Shady LP was just about killing or sensationalism to sell records.
First off I'm 27 and been heavy into hip-hop ever since I was 11 or 12 and "Wit A Dre Day" was blowin up on MTV that summer.
I was actually a fan of Eminem's before even hearing his music. When I read a summer 98 Rap Pages article about him and his signing to Dre's Aftermath label that was all I needed to know.
As for the Slim Shady LP even when he's clowning or rapping about violence it doesn't make it simply a "gimmick to sell records", its so much more then that, and I can still relate to it even though I'm not a violent person or drug addict or whatever...a few points...
1. It's catharsis for the mind. Think about when you throw up how you feel afterwards. You feel like you've cleaned whatever garbage was in yur stomach and it's now empty and free. Well a lot of the off the wall rhymes on SSLP had a deeper meaning and purpose towards catharsis of clearing the mind of tension and angst and making it free and clear.
2. A song like Giulty Conscience, you can relate to the concept of a bad and evil side being in you. "My Name Is" hes basically introducing himself to the world and I could relate to his character because he was a white dude who loved hiphop when it wasnt really socially acceptable for whites, and had family issues with his mom, problems in school, and felt like who he was as a person was under attack and he had to be creative to continue to express himself. So many songs follow such a pattern.
3. Anyone can relate to good music. Eminem had a great sound on the album, flow, delivery, etc. A symphony doesnt have any words yet you relate to it because it responds to the rythyms that exist in our brain, pulse, and neaurosystem. It touches our emotions as well.
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I'm not saying its not great music. It can still be great music and be a gimmick at the same time, which it clearly is.
"what else can i say to make noise, i done touched on everything but little boys"
what does this line tell you? It's Eminem himself telling you he says what he says for shock value. That's why its called a gimmick. Its a marketing tool used to gain attention. Its what made him blow up. He clearly didn't make My Name Is or Guilty Conscience with anything serious in mind. Controversy sells. And Em has milked it to a pulp. They didn't call him the king of controversy for nothing. Why would he make homophobic lyrics and then turn out to be cool with gays in real life? Why would he make a song about killing his wife, and then end up getting back with her? He clearly doesn't believe in a lot of the things he raps about. He does it for comedic affect and to shock people. Again, going back to the original point of this argument which was to say that the majority of Eminem's music does not reflect his personal feelings.
I don't know any simpler way to prove this to you, other than to use Eminem's words himself
A lot of people ask me.. stupid fucking questions
A lot of people think that.. what I say on records
or what I talk about on a record, that I actually do in real life
or that I believe in it
Or if I say that, I wanna kill somebody, that..
I'm actually gonna do it
or that I believe in it
Well, shit.. if you believe that
then I'll kill you
You know why?
Cause I'm a
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I agree with your point that Eminem does try to increase the shock value in his music. Him and Dre even admitted the importance of shock value in his music. I remember Dre saying he was wondering how the shock value on Em's second album could ever match that of the SSLP, and that he was pleasantly surprised when they completed MMLP, because he had actually topped it.
Also, Eminem says the idea behind D12 was to say the most over the top shit that they could say.
Now.. I've looked up the definition of gimmick so we can be clear...
gim·mick
/ˈgɪmɪk/ Show Spelled[gim-ik] Show IPA
–noun
1.
an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.
So I guess according to that definition I can't argue that Eminem makes use of "gimmick".
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...But getting back to the original argument you were saying that Em's music couldn't reflect growth because it has nothing to do with him and is just a gimmick. And I think that was a very limiting perspective to have. Because we've seen how Eminem's art has changed and grown and along with his own life.
If we take a snapshot of the progression of his albums, you'll see he went from "Backstabbers" to "Guilty Conscience" then advancing to "Stan" and then "Say Goodbye To Hollywood" and then finally reached his height and peeked out with "Lose Yourself". Now, admittedly, he lost his focus after that and he admits Relapse was a step backward.
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I think that its impossible to quantify intelligence. Sure grandma might not be able to program your Ipod, but she may know how to knit a sweater. Which of those skills is better to have? Which denotes greater intelligence? For me with age comes perspective. Chances are you have seen more ups and downs and can appreciate when they occur instead of freaking out about it.
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I think that its impossible to quantify intelligence. Sure grandma might not be able to program your Ipod, but she may know how to knit a sweater. Which of those skills is better to have? Which denotes greater intelligence? For me with age comes perspective. Chances are you have seen more ups and downs and can appreciate when they occur instead of freaking out about it.
i don't think either of those skills denotes greater intelligence. i think raw logical abilities and being able to do 'complicated' things is too linear a way to think about intelligence. i would gauge it by our self-reflexivity, adaptability and ability to keep learning new things and bettering ourselves.
i think current generations, to an extent, have this adaptability as more of an embedded intrinsic value. this would be because of the increased speed the world is changing and to go along with this, less rigid ideologies.
one thing for sure, if i don't keep up with things when i get old (and i will make damn sure i try to) then i will be hustling my kids and grankids to teach me all the new shit. especially if it makes my life easier and more enjoyable. that's the irony, old people would benefit from a lot of these new technologies more than most young people.
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I agree with your point that Eminem does try to increase the shock value in his music. Him and Dre even admitted the importance of shock value in his music. I remember Dre saying he was wondering how the shock value on Em's second album could ever match that of the SSLP, and that he was pleasantly surprised when they completed MMLP, because he had actually topped it.
Also, Eminem says the idea behind D12 was to say the most over the top shit that they could say.
Now.. I've looked up the definition of gimmick so we can be clear...
gim·mick
/ˈgɪmɪk/ Show Spelled[gim-ik] Show IPA
–noun
1.
an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.
So I guess according to that definition I can't argue that Eminem makes use of "gimmick".
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...But getting back to the original argument you were saying that Em's music couldn't reflect growth because it has nothing to do with him and is just a gimmick. And I think that was a very limiting perspective to have. Because we've seen how Eminem's art has changed and grown and along with his own life.
If we take a snapshot of the progression of his albums, you'll see he went from "Backstabbers" to "Guilty Conscience" then advancing to "Stan" and then "Say Goodbye To Hollywood" and then finally reached his height and peeked out with "Lose Yourself". Now, admittedly, he lost his focus after that and he admits Relapse was a step backward.
But see, that doesn't really say anything about his state of mind. The serious songs that he throws in on his albums are more a commentary on the state of his career than anything else. He couldn't have made the song Stan for the SSLP, regardless of where his mind state was because he hadn't blown up at that point. And the song Lose Yourself was tailor-made for the movie 8 Mile and described the character B Rabbit. Relapse was his "return album", basically a return to form where he had been gone a while and came back trying to up the bar with controversy. The reason he now calls it a step backwards is because the fan response to that side of Eminem was negative. If the fans had liked the silly Eminem again he would have considered it a step forward.
The direction of his albums don't necessarily say anything about Marshall Mathers the person. They are about Eminem the character. Two separate entities. The character on a record is not the same as the person who makes the record. IE. Ice Cube is a family man with a wife and kids but you wouldn't really know anything about that from listening to his latest record. You can comment all you want on the "growth" of an album, but they don't reflect the personal growth of the person who makes the record.
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If old people ARENT more stupid....how come they cant figure out that youre not supposed to go 45 in the fast lane? :-\
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But see, that doesn't really say anything about his state of mind. The serious songs that he throws in on his albums are more a commentary on the state of his career than anything else. He couldn't have made the song Stan for the SSLP, regardless of where his mind state was because he hadn't blown up at that point. And the song Lose Yourself was tailor-made for the movie 8 Mile and described the character B Rabbit. Relapse was his "return album", basically a return to form where he had been gone a while and came back trying to up the bar with controversy. The reason he now calls it a step backwards is because the fan response to that side of Eminem was negative. If the fans had liked the silly Eminem again he would have considered it a step forward.
The direction of his albums don't necessarily say anything about Marshall Mathers the person. They are about Eminem the character. Two separate entities. The character on a record is not the same as the person who makes the record. IE. Ice Cube is a family man with a wife and kids but you wouldn't really know anything about that from listening to his latest record. You can comment all you want on the "growth" of an album, but they don't reflect the personal growth of the person who makes the record.
Well everybody will have their opinions, some people will say Relapse was actually dope or that Infinite was his best album. But what I believe, and what Eminem has said himself, is that he grew as an artist, and each of his albums from Infinite up to Eminem Show he got better and better. In fact, after Eminem Show he was saying he believed he always had to continue to outdo himself on every album; but when he got to Relapse he said he decided to stop putting pressure on himself like that and just have fun and make music.
So if you are saying that Eminem's albums up until 2003 did not reflect a growth in his artistry, but only that success came and he was able to rap about different subject... well then you disagree with the viewpoint of most of his fans, like myself, and it also goes against Eminem's own words.
Now, so if your willing to accept Eminem's words, that he grew as an artist and outdid himself on each album up through 8 Mile. Then, getting back to my origional point, I would like to add that...
-growth as an artist = equals growth as a person-
Why? Because that is who Eminem is. That is his essence. He is an artist. That is his life, and that is how he defines himself.
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Now, as for Ice Cube. Ice Cube, I think originally defined himself as an artist, and I believe you can see growth in his work from NWA up through "Lethal Injection". So in that way he succeeded where most people fail in life like Matty was saying, and most people "become dumber as they get older". But Ice Cube continued to progress as an artist up through Lethal Injection, and then he began to define himself in different ways, such as an actor, producer, director, businessman, and although the quality of his music has since mitigated, I believe he is someone who has progressed and "became smarter as he got older". So props to him.
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You don't seem to be getting the point. Eminem on a record is not Eminem in real life. It's a manufactured personality for a record that may or may not take things from his real life. You can't take for granted the things rappers say on records. Back to the Ice Cube example. Ice Cube is one of the greatest rap storytellers because of Amerikkka's Most Wanted, an album which gave a classic ghetto narrative of the young, angry black gangbanger -- key word, "storyteller." Ice Cube has never gangbanged in his life and he wasn't talking about actual events from his life on that album. He took the general atmosphere of the ghetto and what he saw others going through and he crafted a musical story out of it. The Cube on his early records was misogynist, and violent and racist and all these things which Cube has turned out not to be in real life. You check out Cube in interviews and he seems like a chill, down-to-earth dude, nothing like the Cube on his early records, or even his records today. That's because the Cube on the album is not the Cube in real life and its silly to believe otherwise. You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies and that it has somehow hurt his credibility. The truth is that ALL of these rappers are making stories to some degree. Some may draw upon real world events, but I guarantee you it is a story nonetheless. Clearly some music can incorporate real life situations and feelings (probably Em's Lose Yourself for example), but you shouldn't assume so and it should be fairly obvious when it doesn't (Em's more silly songs)
You should read up on the "poetic voice", and how it is not the same as the creator of the work, because I feel a lot of hip hop fans aren't aware of what that is and what is actually going on with the creation of the music.
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You don't seem to be getting the point. Eminem on a record is not Eminem in real life. It's a manufactured personality for a record that may or may not take things from his real life. You can't take for granted the things rappers say on records. Back to the Ice Cube example. Ice Cube is one of the greatest rap storytellers because of Amerikkka's Most Wanted, an album which gave a classic ghetto narrative of the young, angry black gangbanger -- key word, "storyteller." Ice Cube has never gangbanged in his life and he wasn't talking about actual events from his life on that album. He took the general atmosphere of the ghetto and what he saw others going through and he crafted a musical story out of it. The Cube on his early records was misogynist, and violent and racist and all these things which Cube has turned out not to be in real life. You check out Cube in interviews and he seems like a chill, down-to-earth dude, nothing like the Cube on his early records, or even his records today. That's because the Cube on the album is not the Cube in real life and its silly to believe otherwise. You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies and that it has somehow hurt his credibility. The truth is that ALL of these rappers are making stories to some degree. Some may draw upon real world events, but I guarantee you it is a story nonetheless. Clearly some music can incorporate real life situations and feelings (probably Em's Lose Yourself for example), but you shouldn't assume so and it should be fairly obvious when it doesn't (Em's more silly songs)
You should read up on the "poetic voice", and how it is not the same as the creator of the work, because I feel a lot of hip hop fans aren't aware of what that is and what is actually going on with the creation of the music.
It sounds like you aren't even reading what I'm posting. Because I gave props to Ice Cube for his progression into the film industry, and then right after that you posted "You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies that somehow hurt his credibility".
Maybe we still aren't understanding each other. So why don't I again use Dre as an example. Because Dre is somebody that doesn't even write his own lyrics and openly admits that what he does is for Entertainment and not close to being an accurate reflection of his life.
Somebody like Dre, is an artist. He showed progression in his life throughout his career. He has continued to grow and "get smarter". NWA topped Wrecking Crew, Death Row topped NWA, and Aftermath in some ways has topped Death Row, which is remarkable for an artist at his age in the field of hip-hop. So that is showing growth as an artist, and since that's how Dre defines himself that is also growth as a person for him. The fact that he was wise enough to leave Death Row before it's collapse and took a stand against the East Coast/West Coast beef ("East Coast/West Coast Killaz") is all icing on the cake as well.
...To sum it up, you are too caught up on trying to prove to me that rappers are different people in real life from their characters on record. I am saying, that regardless, if a rapper defines himself as an artist and that is the primary purpose of his life, then his growth as an artist = growth as a person and will be reflected on record. The sound will change or progress, and since as an artist is how they define themselves, then that is also way of growing as a person for them.
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You don't seem to be getting the point. Eminem on a record is not Eminem in real life. It's a manufactured personality for a record that may or may not take things from his real life. You can't take for granted the things rappers say on records. Back to the Ice Cube example. Ice Cube is one of the greatest rap storytellers because of Amerikkka's Most Wanted, an album which gave a classic ghetto narrative of the young, angry black gangbanger -- key word, "storyteller." Ice Cube has never gangbanged in his life and he wasn't talking about actual events from his life on that album. He took the general atmosphere of the ghetto and what he saw others going through and he crafted a musical story out of it. The Cube on his early records was misogynist, and violent and racist and all these things which Cube has turned out not to be in real life. You check out Cube in interviews and he seems like a chill, down-to-earth dude, nothing like the Cube on his early records, or even his records today. That's because the Cube on the album is not the Cube in real life and its silly to believe otherwise. You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies and that it has somehow hurt his credibility. The truth is that ALL of these rappers are making stories to some degree. Some may draw upon real world events, but I guarantee you it is a story nonetheless. Clearly some music can incorporate real life situations and feelings (probably Em's Lose Yourself for example), but you shouldn't assume so and it should be fairly obvious when it doesn't (Em's more silly songs)
You should read up on the "poetic voice", and how it is not the same as the creator of the work, because I feel a lot of hip hop fans aren't aware of what that is and what is actually going on with the creation of the music.
It sounds like you aren't even reading what I'm posting. Because I gave props to Ice Cube for his progression into the film industry, and then right after that you posted "You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies that somehow hurt his credibility".
Maybe we still aren't understanding each other. So why don't I again use Dre as an example. Because Dre is somebody that doesn't even write his own lyrics and openly admits that what he does is for Entertainment and not close to being an accurate reflection of his life.
Somebody like Dre, is an artist. He showed progression in his life throughout his career. He has continued to grow and "get smarter". NWA topped Wrecking Crew, Death Row topped NWA, and Aftermath in some ways has topped Death Row, which is remarkable for an artist at his age in the field of hip-hop. So that is showing growth as an artist, and since that's how Dre defines himself that is also growth as a person for him. The fact that he was wise enough to leave Death Row before it's collapse and took a stand against the East Coast/West Coast beef ("East Coast/West Coast Killaz") is all icing on the cake as well.
...To sum it up, you are too caught up on trying to prove to me that rappers are different people in real life from their characters on record. I am saying, that regardless, if a rapper defines himself as an artist and that is the primary purpose of his life, then his growth as an artist = growth as a person and will be reflected on record. The sound will change or progress, and since as an artist is how they define themselves, then that is also way of growing as a person for them.
For one, Dr. Dre's music doesn't show progression in his life. It shows progression in his production technique. He could have continued to grow and get smarter for all we know, but it wouldn't be evident through any of his lyrics. In fact, going by your logic he wouldn't have changed at all because the content of his lyrics have barely changed.
Where are you getting this idea music defines the person making it? Lets take me. I write lyrics on the side. Now I don't actually put music out, but if I did, the music wouldn't define me as a person. Hell, most of the lyrics I write are me writing from someone else's perspective. Just because someone is a music artist doesn't make music their "primary purpose in life." Who the fuck are you to assume what Eminem's primary purpose in life is? I don't know Em personally but I'm pretty damn sure that if he had to choose between making music or being a father to his daughter, the music would go out the window. Making music is like a job. The dude who works at Dennys isn't defined by his job. You aren't defined by what you choose to do to make income. And I don't think there's any question that Eminem's particular style at each moment were choices designed to cater to his audience (aka, to sell the most records).
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For one, Dr. Dre's music doesn't show progression in his life. It shows progression in his production technique. He could have continued to grow and get smarter for all we know, but it wouldn't be evident through any of his lyrics. In fact, going by your logic he wouldn't have changed at all because the content of his lyrics have barely changed.
Where are you getting this idea music defines the person making it? Lets take me. I write lyrics on the side. Now I don't actually put music out, but if I did, the music wouldn't define me as a person. Hell, most of the lyrics I write are me writing from someone else's perspective. Just because someone is a music artist doesn't make music their "primary purpose in life." Who the fuck are you to assume what Eminem's primary purpose in life is? I don't know Em personally but I'm pretty damn sure that if he had to choose between making music or being a father to his daughter, the music would go out the window. Making music is like a job. The dude who works at Dennys isn't defined by his job. You aren't defined by what you choose to do to make income. And I don't think there's any question that Eminem's particular style at each moment were choices designed to cater to his audience (aka, to sell the most records).
There are many ways in which a person can show continuous growth in their life. And art is only One of them. So especially in the case of a true artist, which I believe Eminem is (if you don't, that's fine, believe what you want)... his artwork, his music, is often going to be an area where you can gauge his growth as a person. It doesn't mean that if his music sucks he's suddenly becoming "dumber". Because, like you said, maybe he is growing and developing in other aspects of his life, such as fatherhood. Music/art is just one example of an aspect in which people can show growth in their life.
The reason I made this point in the first place, is I'm sure a high school teacher probably viewed Eminem growing up as a failure, as immature. Em has even mentioned this in his songs how he was viewed as a failure who wasn't doing anything with his life. Yet, in the aspect that was most important to him, in his craft, in his music, his art; he was growing and developing as a person faster then they were.
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For one, Dr. Dre's music doesn't show progression in his life. It shows progression in his production technique. He could have continued to grow and get smarter for all we know, but it wouldn't be evident through any of his lyrics. In fact, going by your logic he wouldn't have changed at all because the content of his lyrics have barely changed.
Where are you getting this idea music defines the person making it? Lets take me. I write lyrics on the side. Now I don't actually put music out, but if I did, the music wouldn't define me as a person. Hell, most of the lyrics I write are me writing from someone else's perspective. Just because someone is a music artist doesn't make music their "primary purpose in life." Who the fuck are you to assume what Eminem's primary purpose in life is? I don't know Em personally but I'm pretty damn sure that if he had to choose between making music or being a father to his daughter, the music would go out the window. Making music is like a job. The dude who works at Dennys isn't defined by his job. You aren't defined by what you choose to do to make income. And I don't think there's any question that Eminem's particular style at each moment were choices designed to cater to his audience (aka, to sell the most records).
There are many ways in which a person can show continuous growth in their life. And art is only One of them. So especially in the case of a true artist, which I believe Eminem is (if you don't, that's fine, believe what you want)... his artwork, his music, is often going to be an area where you can gauge his growth as a person. It doesn't mean that if his music sucks he's suddenly becoming "dumber". Because, like you said, maybe he is growing and developing in other aspects of his life, such as fatherhood. Music/art is just one example of an aspect in which people can show growth in their life.
The reason I made this point in the first place, is I'm sure a high school teacher probably viewed Eminem growing up as a failure, as immature. Em has even mentioned this in his songs how he was viewed as a failure who wasn't doing anything with his life. Yet, in the aspect that was most important to him, in his craft, in his music, his art; he was growing and developing as a person faster then they were.
First you were talking about his lyrics, now you seem to be talking about his success. If he was an underground no-name would you still be talking about personal growth? NO, then that comes down to his successful career, not his growth as a person. I think you are confusing the two. Good music and success don't go hand in hand. Arguably, his most intellectual records were made before he got famous. But that completely contradicts what you seem to be trying to say. In my opinion, Eminem today is smarter than Eminem before or during the time he blew up. But that is based on what I have seen of him outside of records, NOT the state of his music.
I still think you're a fool if you gauge personal growth by the personality of a record. Once again, there is this thing called the "poetic voice," which is rarely the same as the poet. If you believe Eminem is a "true artist", then you would know about the poetic voice and that it is used by "true artists." I think hip hop fans get too caught up in "keeping it real" and forget that it is art, not a biographical story. In other words, the art may impersonate reality, but it is not in fact reality.
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First you were talking about his lyrics, now you seem to be talking about his success. If he was an underground no-name would you still be talking about personal growth? NO, then that comes down to his successful career, not his growth as a person. I think you are confusing the two. Good music and success don't go hand in hand. Arguably, his most intellectual records were made before he got famous. But that completely contradicts what you seem to be trying to say. In my opinion, Eminem today is smarter than Eminem before or during the time he blew up. But that is based on what I have seen of him outside of records, NOT the state of his music.
No, my continued use of the word "art" should have made you realize I was talking about the artistic value of his work and not it's commercial success. Although at times the two can of course be related to one another.
I still think you're a fool if you gauge personal growth by the personality of a record. Once again, there is this thing called the "poetic voice," which is rarely the same as the poet. If you believe Eminem is a "true artist", then you would know about the poetic voice and that it is used by "true artists." I think hip hop fans get too caught up in "keeping it real" and forget that it is art, not a biographical story. In other words, the art may impersonate reality, but it is not in fact reality.
I still think you're a fool for totally writing off the fact that a person's value's and way of life will be reflected in their lyrics. Cause although Eminem may not of killed anybody it's still an expression of angst, or of a thought that was going on in his brain at the time. If Eminem and Kim had a relationship where they never fought and they were like Michelle and Barack Obama or something then I seriously doubt he would of made songs as powerful as "97 Bonnie and Clyde" and "Kim". Because although it's fantasy, you can hear the pain in his voice. For example, 2pac wouldn't say "Fuck You Afeni" on a record because he loved his mom and they had a beautiful relationship, but Eminem had a very rough relationship with his mom, and it was reflected in his lyrics.
And even somebody like Dre who openly admits to doing it for Entertainment and had ghostwriters the number of times he rapped about killing people on the "2001" album was remarkably less then his younger days of the "Chronic" period when he was in and out of jail, and not quite as reclusive and far away from street cats.
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Seeing how this thread is already derailed.
I always saw the serious eminem songs like stan as another marketing gimmick.
After SSLP pissed of the parents of the teens who listened to it, em needed to show a serious side to please them so that the kids would still be allowed to listen to Eminem.
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No, my continued use of the word "art" should have made you realize I was talking about the artistic value of his work and not it's commercial success. Although at times the two can of course be related to one another.
yes, but if you want to talk about his music as art, then you should be aware of the "poetic voice" and how it is different from the person who writes the lyrics. Of course it CAN reflect some of what the person is feeling. BUT YOU SHOULDN'T ASSUME SO. That's a necessity for interpreting art or poetry. IE the poet Milton. Scholars who study Milton don't use his poetry to define his life. It's the other way around, they use his life to understand his poems. In fact some of the feelings expressed in his poetry are contrary to his actual beliefs. Some of it was used for other reasons or to pander to certain people. (I'm taking a class on Milton right now, lol). Of course that's quite different from Eminem, but I'm using the same concept. You can't use his lyrics to assume what his life or personal beliefs are.
I still think you're a fool for totally writing off the fact that a person's value's and way of life will be reflected in their lyrics. Cause although Eminem may not of killed anybody it's still an expression of angst, or of a thought that was going on in his brain at the time. If Eminem and Kim had a relationship where they never fought and they were like Michelle and Barack Obama or something then I seriously doubt he would of made songs as powerful as "97 Bonnie and Clyde" and "Kim". Because although it's fantasy, you can hear the pain in his voice. For example, 2pac wouldn't say "Fuck You Afeni" on a record because he loved his mom and they had a beautiful relationship, but Eminem had a very rough relationship with his mom, and it was reflected in his lyrics.
And even somebody like Dre who openly admits to doing it for Entertainment and had ghostwriters the number of times he rapped about killing people on the "2001" album was remarkably less then his younger days of the "Chronic" period when he was in and out of jail, and not quite as reclusive and far away from street cats.
I'm not completely writing off that his lyrics can reflect some of his feelings, I'm saying that you don't know what is or isn't based on his personal values. You can't listen to a song lyric and say "this is what Eminem believes or this is how he feels." You have to look at the man Marshall Mathers, find out his personal values from REALITY, and then use that to understand his music, not the other way around. Trust me on this. I may not be a rapper, but I do write lyrics and poetry, and half the time what I write isn't a reflection on my state of mind.
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I'm not completely writing off that his lyrics can reflect some of his feelings, I'm saying that you don't know what is or isn't based on his personal values. You can't listen to a song lyric and say "this is what Eminem believes or this is how he feels." You have to look at the man Marshall Mathers, find out his personal values from REALITY, and then use that to understand his music, not the other way around. Trust me on this. I may not be a rapper, but I do write lyrics and poetry, and half the time what I write isn't a reflection on my state of mind.
I can pretty much tell where Em is coming from when he raps, it's just an insight. Always have been able to. I think with my favorite artists I feel I have a pretty good idea where their coming from, and maybe that's why they are my favorites.
You seem to be pretty sure of yourself on this one, and so am I about what I've been saying.