West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: infinite59 on September 04, 2003, 06:00:23 PM
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The Catholic Church came to the conclusion a few decades ago that Islam was a good religion that teached positive values. The Church clearly stated that it's objective was to biuld better relations with Muslims.
The Catholic Church not only talks the talk, but they also walk the walk. The Pope and the upper echelon of the Catholic Church officially condemned both of the Gulf Wars.
This is a major improvement from their past behaivor. In the past they would send their missionaries to continents such as Africa. They would give them a Bible and say "turn the other cheek". Then they would come with their soldiers, bombs, and missles and destroy many of the indegenous peoples and usurp their resources. Today, Africa's second largest religion is Catholosism.
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good to hear, equality between religions.....
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:D
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Hmm. so because they support something muslims support, they're good people? How about the catholic belief that everyone not catholic is going to burn in hell?
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Hmm. so because they support something muslims support, they're good people? How about the catholic belief that everyone not catholic is going to burn in hell?
How about the Mormon belief that "You ain't Mormon 'til you've slept with your brother's wife"
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Hmm. so because they support something muslims support, they're good people? How about the catholic belief that everyone not catholic is going to burn in hell?
no... we believe that you have to forgive man.. and have man forgive you... and give your life to god... and sprend the holy words of love.... thats it....
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Hmm. so because they support something muslims support, they're good people? How about the catholic belief that everyone not catholic is going to burn in hell?
How about the Mormon belief that "You ain't Mormon 'til you've slept with your brother's wife"
damn
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How about the Mormon belief that "You ain't Mormon 'til you've slept with your brother's wife"
This is a weak stereotype, let's not mix truth with falsehood.
The Mormon church officially forbade the practice of polygamy in 1890.
And one of the reasons why some of them still practiced polygamy was with good intention; many of them felt that the prohibition of polygamy would translate into the endorsement of adultery, prostitution, and the homeless children that could be all but eliminated by following a different system of marriage.
Either way, let's try to marganilize the spread of myths and slogans that prevent people from actually thinking.
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Infinite, I actually agree with you; now please take your own advice you fuckin hypocrit. You're just a fuckin nutcase lost in this world looking for answers which you can't find, so you shove your radical beliefs down other people's throats. You can't tell people that they're wasting their lives if they don't read the Qu'ran, because that my wanna-be Muslim is against the religion. You're just like Trauma, a fuckin a fundamentalist. The only difference is your "myths and slogans" as you call them are in regards to radical Islamic ways, and Trauma's are his Republican, pro-war, anti-foreigner, right-wing bullshit.
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Good to see they're accepting other religions as good
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When are Muslims going to start accepting other religions as equal like the Catholic church???
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When are Muslims going to start accepting other religions as equal like the Catholic church???
Our religion actually teaches us to accept other religions and not look down upon any other being. You only speak on what you see, which is not the image of all Muslims. Try stepping away from your TV or Trauma's threads, and you'll have a better understanding. Try actually reading books on Islam and its teachings. I guarantee it will change your mind. Terrorists do not represent our religion, they are simply a small fraction of idiots just like there are in any other race.
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Our religion actually teaches us to accept other religions and not look down upon any other being. You only speak on what you see, which is not the image of all Muslims. Try stepping away from your TV or Trauma's threads, and you'll have a better understanding. Try actually reading books on Islam and its teachings. I guarantee it will change your mind. Terrorists do not represent our religion, they are simply a small fraction of idiots just like there are in any other race.
Lets take a look at Saudi Arabia:
-All Citizens are REQUIRED to be Muslim...
-Detention of Shi'a religious leaders and societal discrimination against the Shi’a...
-Non Muslim harassment/torture/deportation by the Mutawwa'in...
-Creating, owning, importing, or distribution of any non-Muslim religious material is not allowed...
-Don't even get me started on their views of the Jewish...
-If you convert to another religion from Islam, you can be put to death...
Take a look at Afghanistan durring the Taliban? That govenment supposedly strictly followed Islamic law. Were they tollerent of other religions?
Church bombings in Pakistan?
What about the Christians that get slaughtered in the phillipines and indonesia?
I realize that Islam CAN be a religion of peace but when Osama Bin Laden has wide support throughout the mid-east and is considered by many in that region to be a Folk hero, it's hard for people to see that.
-Hussam Khader, a member of Arafat's Fatah party said that "Bin Laden today is the most popular figure in the West Bank and Gaza, second only to Arafat."
-Over 76% of Palestinians in a poll oppose any Arab or Palestinian participation in the coalition against terrorism led by the United States.
-26% of Palestinians in a poll believe that the attacks against civilians in the United States are consistent with Islamic Law.
-43% of Palestinians in a poll feel that such attacks (9/11) are beneficial to Arab interests.
-In northern Nigeria, bin Laden has (according to Reuters) "achieved iconic status"
-Nearly no public denouncement of Bin Laden by Islamic scholars.
It seems to me like Bin Laden isn't the McVeigh type figure many make him out to be but rather has a large support group throughout the middle east. This isn't just some crazy anti-islam view, but is backed up by facts, polls, and statements.
Speaking of books and readings, try checking out "The Dhimmi: Jews & Christians Under Islam" from your local library. It's based of PRIMARY sources from non-Muslims living under shari’a.
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I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but to you does that mean that
a) Islam teaches Muslims to hate
b) Political leaders use religion as a tool to gain support for things such as these and even use it to brainwash their followers into thinking that blowing themselves up is right. In addition, the media there just as the media here, is biased and makes people think worse of the U.S. than it actually is, and maybe there are some people who are just as dumb as the millions of dumb ones in this country. Actually let me rephrase: Most of those people don't have the resources to other news material and are fed that information, unlike the ignorant ones in this country who go with what they're fed when they damn well could access the internet and thousands of sources. You have to understand that religion is probably the most powerful tool for a political leader in a country where there is no real seperation between church and state. Plus, I said that our religion doesn't teach us the things you think it does. You come back with statistics showing there is an X percentage of Muslims who think it's ok to kill Americans, which leads me to another thing. When American soldiers overseas are killed, don't SOME Americans believe that those "damn muslims should die". Well, let me tell you that that's exactly the sentiments of some of the civilians of Muslim nations and Palestine. Iranians died in their war against Iraq in which the U.S. provided Iraq with weaponry. Now you wonder why might SOME of those Iranians want Americans to die? It's for reasons such as the one I've stated. The same applies to Palestinians and their struggle against Israel. The U.S. supports the Israeli army with $1 billion a year. People bitching about the economy and what not; how about using that billion for something more useful here at home (health care, education, etc). Open your eyes right-wingers.
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What I mean is:
Islam CAN be a peaceful religion. There are many who practice it peacefully. Thing is, there is also a LARGE amount of people who don't. It just seems to me from the research and readings I've done that there are a substantially large number of people who agree with the Hate and violence that Bin laden practices. Many more that the extremists in of other religions. Take from that what you want.
Polls don't lie, When somebody says "Bin Laden today is the most popular figure in the West Bank and Gaza, second only to Arafat," It just blows my mind. If Islam a religion of peace, why are a large number Muslims supporting a man who wants nothing but violence and intolerance propagated throughout the world?
I understand perfectly that religion is a leader’s strongest tool in a country that is impoverished. I guess it's a catch 22, but you think that if people lived in poverty and oppression while their leaders were rich beyond words, that people would start to ask questions. The Middle East could be one of the richest regions in the world with their natural resources; instead poverty is very common, while the leaders live in luxury.
Next point: I'm sure that some people feel that "damn Muslims should die" but I'd be willing to bet that is a very small percentage of Americans. You don't see celebrations in the streets of New York when a missile goes off course and blows up a house, you don't see celebrations when one of our soldiers shoots up a family who didn't stop at a check point. I'm sorry I can't say the same about many countries in the Middle East. Pro Bin Laden gatherings in Mecca? Why would people support somebody who's killed so many? Celebrations when a bus full of people is blown up? If Islam a religion of peace, why does this happen?
I don't even know how much we give Israel, but let’s take a look at some other numbers
-20 billion going towards rebuilding Iraq.
-800 million going towards civilian programs in Afghanistan
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/09/politics/09COST.html?ex=1063684800&en=32a24b5ef326bdef&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE
The "price tag makes the package the most expensive postwar military and civilian effort since the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe after World War II, after adjusting for inflation."
Can the Middle East still complain about America not giving it the support it gives Israel?
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The U.S. HAS to rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq for its own good. It's not really a moral choice, it's a financial one and one that has much to do with security. The U.S. failed to do that in Afghanistan after the Cold War, and look what happened. It became a playground for terrorists, Taliban gained control, etc. Now the U.S. HAS to help the countries after it BOMBS them, don't you think?
I agree with you when you stated that "More extremists in Islam than other religions....", but that's exactly my point: THEY ARE EXTREMISTS. They do not represent the religion, nor do they reflect the true meaning of the teachings of the religion. Palestinians praising U.S. deaths shouldn't be such a shock to you. I don't blame them. I don't share their views, but since I'm not living there, nor do I go through what they go through who am I, or in this case you, to say how they should feel towards the U.S.
By the way. the war effort in Iraq costs us $1 billion a week. Do you honestly believe that's worth it? Take into account the fact that there were no weapons of mass destruction found, Iraq didn't get the uranium, and all the other false accusations made by the Bush administration.
To sum everything up, the U.S. knows it HAS to spend the money in the reconstruction effort, it realizes know that it had no real reason to invade Iraq, it realizes that world/UN support was necessary, and it's stuck in a shithole which it seems to be burrying itself deeper and deeper into without being able to get out. U.S. doesn't want to stay, nor can they control Iraq, but it also can't just come out. Bush is one of the worst decision-making presidents ever. He completely ignores past treaties, alliances, and such, and thinks he can do everything his own way.
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Let's take a look at some quotes from the Quran:
Surah 2:191: "Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out..."
Surah 2:193: "Fight (kill) them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's."
surah 9:29: "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day...and fight People of the Book (Christians), who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior."
Surah 2:216: "Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it."
Surah 5:51: "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends."
Surah 9:73: "Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home."
Surah 9:121: "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them."
I'm sure some of those were taken out of context, but you have to admit you can see where the Extremists get the fuel for their fire.
On to your post...
The main point I'm trying to get across is: In the mid-east, the extremism present in modern Islam seems to be moving away from being a fringe way of thought and moving towards normality. These people are hijacking a religion by preying on disenfranchised people.
When you say you don't blame the Palestinians for cheering death what does that say about you? The way I see it is that you accept and apologize for the people who cheer for death. If Islam is a religion of peace, why would you do that?
I don't really want to discuss Iraq here, I'd rather stay on the current topic, so if you wanna create another thread I'll let you know my views there.
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Let's take a look at some quotes from the Quran:
Surah 2:191: "Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out..."
Surah 2:193: "Fight (kill) them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's."
surah 9:29: "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day...and fight People of the Book (Christians), who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior."
Surah 2:216: "Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it."
Surah 5:51: "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends."
Surah 9:73: "Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home."
Surah 9:121: "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them."
I'm sure some of those were taken out of context, but you have to admit you can see where the Extremists get the fuel for their fire.
On to your post...
The main point I'm trying to get across is: In the mid-east, the extremism present in modern Islam seems to be moving away from being a fringe way of thought and moving towards normality. These people are hijacking a religion by preying on disenfranchised people.
When you say you don't blame the Palestinians for cheering death what does that say about you? The way I see it is that you accept and apologize for the people who cheer for death. If Islam is a religion of peace, why would you do that?
I don't really want to discuss Iraq here, I'd rather stay on the current topic, so if you wanna create another thread I'll let you know my views there.
shall i take a look at the Bible and quote some parts?
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shall i take a look at the Bible and quote some parts?
Look who came out of his cave?! :-*
The Bible isn't what we are talking about here so just do us a favor and let the big boys talk.
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Yes most of those are out of context, and if you read the entire surah, and not just one line, you'll see that it takes on a similar (not completely different) meaning. But, I do see where you're coming from, and you do have a point. What I'm saying is that those extremists did just that, take things out of context; take one line out of a surah and that's what fueled them, just like you said. In that I agree with you. The same thing applies to the Bible though, where if you take things out of context and just read one-liners, it can seem like something very radical and unethical, although there aren't as many Christian nutcases.
About my comment on Palestinians you're just assuming things now, which is clearly obvious in your "The way I see it...." You see, you're wrong. I don't accept and apologize for those who cheer for death. If you go back and read word by word, all I said was that I UNDERSTAND WHY THEY FEEL THE WAY THEY DO. I never said they were right in praising the death of people. All I said is that I can see why they would feel that way.
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shall i take a look at the Bible and quote some parts?
Look who came out of his cave?! :-*
The Bible isn't what we are talking about here so just do us a favor and let the big boys talk.
just saying that the content in the Bible aint diffrent
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This thread reminds me of some lines of a Dutch protest song:
"Toen het christendom op aarde kwam en iedereen het recht ontnam te leven zoals hij dacht dat goed was..."
the translation for those of you who don't happen to know Dutch ;):
"When christianity came to earth and took away the right of everyone to live like he thought was right.."
I think there's quite some truth in that.
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shall i take a look at the Bible and quote some parts?
Look who came out of his cave?! :-*
The Bible isn't what we are talking about here so just do us a favor and let the big boys talk.
just saying that the content in the Bible aint diffrent
How Dim are you?
WE AREN'T DISCUSSING THE BIBLE