I've been thinking about this removal of the Train of Thoughts (aka Hall of Mirrors) forum and I would like to make an open statement. Please feel free to comment or add your own views. I'm sorry if this is a little long but I've tried to make it as concise as possible but keep everything I want to say.

First of all I would like to point out that we are all guests of Overseer. This is his board and he can have what he wants on it. He does not owe us any favours and there is no way we can, nor do we have the right to expect we could, demand he bring Hall of Mirrors back. In the end any decision he makes will by definition be the right one because it will be his decision and it is his board.

Secondly, I would also like to say that IMHO an open vote containing an option to let the forum RIP is wrong. Because the vote is open to everyone, not just people who post to Hall of Mirrors, it could still be scrapped even if all the posters of the forum (the minority) voted to keep it. No one is forced to view or post in Hall of Mirrors so it's not fair that those people who never contribute can dictate to the rest of us what we can or cannot talk about. We users are all equal, only Overseer should have the right to get rid of a forum if he wants to get rid of it.


I know Overseer outside of this board and I know the original reasons he created Hall of Mirrors. But I think the forum has grown and evolved into something more than he expected. I feel it has created its own sub culture within the board as there are people who either mainly come, or only come, to the board because of the forum. I can say this is true for at least one person (myself) and I suppose this to be true for some others, as I cannot imagine I am that different from the average person.

The good thing about this board is that it is truly multi-cultural and multi-faith. This means that no single group dominates any one forum. So in debates you get a good mixture of different viewpoints and opinions and these can influence your own.

I have a deep hatred of organised religion simply because it is open to abuse by those with power. Religion in my opinion isn't something that should be taught but something that one should be taught how to learn. That is to say that to be taught religion means that you are told what is right and what is true. But that can lead to manipulation as there is no way to know if what you are being taught is in fact right. I'm not saying this does happen but just that it could happen and is why I find it dangerous. Hall of Mirrors is good because one can learn from so many different people who may all have different cultural and religious backgrounds. We may not all agree all of the time but we can all learn something from our debates. The same goes for politics.

At University I studied Maths. I think Maths is a good subject not because the things it teaches are useful in life but exactly the opposite. I'd find it hard to apply any of the facts I've learnt to a career other than that of teaching Maths again. But what I did learn was to use my mind. Maths is very abstract and in fact the lecturers are not teaching you facts but the skills to learn yourself. I found Hall of Mirrors useful because I'm always questioning what I think to be true and what people say. All of my beliefs are based on my experience thus far - without additional experiences I have no idea if what I believe currently to be right is in fact right.

People are inherently xenophobic and without an open mind and a wide range of experiences we can stagnate in our own little worlds hating anything everything that is different from ourselves. As a famous person once said, "We hate what we fear and we fear what we don't understand." Hall of Mirrors teaches us all to understand each other and ourselves better.

Lastly, obviously Hall of Mirrors was not perfect hence the reason that I'm writing this. Without order the forum will descend into chaos - it's just human nature. We do need moderators to keep the peace. Eventually someone will make an overly generalised comment about a group of people, or personally attack someone (whether intentional or accidental), and cause offence. We all need reminding of the boundaries of acceptability once in a while and that should be the job of the moderators. It is never right to personally attack individuals or a entire group of people butlets face it - it's eventually going to happen so we should expect it and take the necessary steps to make sure it doesn't get out of control.

Peace
Nostro

Personally I think the Hall is muslim-dominated...

interesting theory about math though

True, there are a lot of Muslims. But what I was really saying is that because the forum has its roots in rap/hip hop etc., and you don't have to be any one particular religion to enjoy that, you get all sorts of religions accessing the board. Maybe as a percentage there are more Muslims than anything else but that's not a bad thing is it? And I can say 100% that not everyone in the forum is a Muslim so there is still diversity.

The theory about Maths is just that the things they were talking about in lectures were so abstract that you couldn't possibly apply them vocationally. And for exercises they'd only give part of the information you actually needed so not only did you have to solve the problems but you also had to research the missing bits on your own. I also like the subject though becuase it's absolute. There are no grey areas, there is no opinion. It's all fact and I like that - it's comfortable. Religion is all about faith so it's kind of the opposite. I guess that's why it can get so violent sometimes.

Yeah, and people are too ignorant to realize that the faith someone has in a religion that they so easily bash is the same as the faith they have in their own religion.  LOL It amazes me that people of a different faith think they have something over someone else, when religion by definition involves faith.  It's amazing.  I'm just thankful I see above the clouds... it's frustrating though seeing people doing things so young.  

Quote from: Quakaveli on December 01, 2002, 09:57:15 AM

Personally I think the Hall is muslim-dominated...

interesting theory about math though

True, there are a lot of Muslims. But what I was really saying is that because the forum has its roots in rap/hip hop etc., and you don't have to be any one particular religion to enjoy that, you get all sorts of religions accessing the board. Maybe as a percentage there are more Muslims than anything else but that's not a bad thing is it? And I can say 100% that not everyone in the forum is a Muslim so there is still diversity.

The theory about Maths is just that the things they were talking about in lectures were so abstract that you couldn't possibly apply them vocationally. And for exercises they'd only give part of the information you actually needed so not only did you have to solve the problems but you also had to research the missing bits on your own. I also like the subject though becuase it's absolute. There are no grey areas, there is no opinion. It's all fact and I like that - it's comfortable. Religion is all about faith so it's kind of the opposite. I guess that's why it can get so violent sometimes.

I question whether you've really studied Islam.  And not speaking directly to any one Muslim at this board, I also question whether alot of the Muslims who were born into their religion have really taken any real time to go back and study it besides what they were told as a kid.

Christianity teaches you that faith is believing when common sense tells you not to.  Islam REJECTS that idealogy.  Faith comes through truth, knowledge, practice, understanding, and clear direction.   To say all religions are based on faith is a distorted vision of the truth.  Islam encourages you to question the Holy Qur'an; and anything you are taught can be explained through reason.  

Islam is FACT.  It is a fact that we were created or we wouldn't be here.  And it is a fact that even the tiniest, most miniscule atom is yet dependant on something else.  We are all dependent on a higher power, the most high, the Creator and sustainer of all things.  Man is just a grain of salt on a pool table.  And you are lying to yourself if you think yourself wise and powerful enough to where you are exempt from the need of Allah's devine giudance.  Even if you were to reach a life-time of reasoned out conclusions you would still lack the conviction to carry out those conclusions.

Islam is FACT.  Islam is not the religion of any person, place or time period.  Islam is the natural religion of all things.  Even the sun and the moon are both Muslims because they submit their will to devine guidance, and follow a course that is prescribed and devine.  All people, in all times that submitted their will and love to a Creator who is One, where Muslims, even before their was the word "Muslims".

The Qur'an was revealed by Allah at a fixed time in our evolution where our collective understanding had reached a level high enough to accept and contemplate these revelations.  Advanced Muslims have used computers to make books showing how every surah in the Qur'an is a factor of 19.  The word man and woman are used the exact same amount of times.  There are thousands more examples like this.  There were no computers back then.  But as Allah says in the Holy Qur'an, "I used the number 19 so that ye could be certain."  

Quote from: Infinite Ibrahim Abdul Hamid on December 02, 2002, 06:07:49 PM

Christianity teaches you that faith is believing when common sense tells you not to.  Islam REJECTS that idealogy.  Faith comes through truth, knowledge, practice, understanding, and clear direction.   To say all religions are based on faith is a distorted vision of the truth.  Islam encourages you to question the Holy Qur'an; and anything you are taught can be explained through reason.  

lol  oh god no you seriously dont know jack about christianity to say that

From preachers to rank in file Christians.  Whenever I used to raise a question growing up the response was, "You just got to have faith."

Quote from: Nostromoo on December 01, 2002, 02:08:23 PM

True, there are a lot of Muslims. But what I was really saying is that because the forum has its roots in rap/hip hop etc., and you don't have to be any one particular religion to enjoy that, you get all sorts of religions accessing the board. Maybe as a percentage there are more Muslims than anything else but that's not a bad thing is it? And I can say 100% that not everyone in the forum is a Muslim so there is still diversity.

I question whether you've really studied Islam.  And not speaking directly to any one Muslim at this board, I also question whether alot of the Muslims who were born into their religion have really taken any real time to go back and study it besides what they were told as a kid.

Christianity teaches you that faith is believing when common sense tells you not to.  Islam REJECTS that idealogy.  Faith comes through truth, knowledge, practice, understanding, and clear direction.   To say all religions are based on faith is a distorted vision of the truth.  Islam encourages you to question the Holy Qur'an; and anything you are taught can be explained through reason.  

Islam is FACT.  It is a fact that we were created or we wouldn't be here.  And it is a fact that even the tiniest, most miniscule atom is yet dependant on something else.  We are all dependent on a higher power, the most high, the Creator and sustainer of all things.  Man is just a grain of salt on a pool table.  And you are lying to yourself if you think yourself wise and powerful enough to where you are exempt from the need of Allah's devine giudance.  Even if you were to reach a life-time of reasoned out conclusions you would still lack the conviction to carry out those conclusions.

Islam is FACT.  Islam is not the religion of any person, place or time period.  Islam is the natural religion of all things.  Even the sun and the moon are both Muslims because they submit their will to devine guidance, and follow a course that is prescribed and devine.  All people, in all times that submitted their will and love to a Creator who is One, where Muslims, even before their was the word "Muslims".

The Qur'an was revealed by Allah at a fixed time in our evolution where our collective understanding had reached a level high enough to accept and contemplate these revelations. Advanced Muslims have used computers to make books showing how every surah in the Qur'an is a factor of 19.  The word man and woman are used the exact same amount of times.  There are thousands more examples like this.  There were no computers back then.  But as Allah says in the Holy Qur'an, "I used the number 19 so that ye could be certain."

Interesting post Infinite. I'll answer you in Train of Thought becuase imo this is getting a bit too deep for the shack.

i'mma lock this up.

ya coulda asked me or neckio to move it