West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96' on May 28, 2008, 11:00:00 AM
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To understand America's current war in Iraq, it may be useful to make not of America's first war abroad.
After winning it's Independence from the British, America's first war was an effort to control the trade routes along the Mediterranean sea. The despised paying tribute to the Kings of North African countries such Libya and Morocco for access rights to trade along North Africa. So they figured rather than paying these regions to trade along THEIR borders that it would be cheaper to take those trade routes by force.
In the short term, they failed. The wars were hugely expensive, and America had limited success. However, in the long term, America was trading along the Mediterranean without the burden of paying tribute to gain access to it.
I see this current war the same way. America didn't want to have to pay full price for Middle Eastern oil, and thought it would be cheaper to take it by force. They have initially failed on this assumption and it's objective. The resistance has been fierce in Iraq, and even today Shiite clerics such as Muqtada Al Sadr and Al-Sistani have still not yet been humbled by the United States. They are still major power players and fierce in their opposition to America's long term subjugation of the region.
Maybe in the long run, America will continue to Iraqi and Middle Eastern oil at a bargain price as a result of this war, much cheaper than working with Sadaam...... However, in the short term they have lost the war and the high gas prices are an indication of this.
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Do you think the elite business men give a shit about the price of gas? do you think they have any loyalties towards america whatsoever when even Haliburton has moved to Dubai. They have found massive oil reserves throughout the world, the war was always going to lead to escalating oil prices but they have the oil fields, they can control the supply of oil. Don't get it twisted, those pipelines are under their control in fact that is the one part of Iraq they do give a shit about. This is about raping us but furthermore it's something I have already mentioned in a previous article, the oil keeps rising because the dollar keeps falling. What happens is one of two things, firstly concerning the devaluing crisis and that's what it is, inflation sets in because obviously it costs more to bring in the same amount of oil. Also people bail from having their investments tied up in the dollar and invest in oil instead. The continuous threat to the region engineered by the CIA and the troop presence mostly, leads to rampant speculation.
There was the dotcom bubble, the housing bubble now there is the oil bubble, all of them pop and in doing so allow for a firesale to be initiated, it's all a game. Nothing major happens in the world without it being pre planned first they are not my words they are roosevelts, i can't remember the exact quote although you can probably google it.
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No, I disagree with your post... and please try to confine your response to these bullet points because sometimes you touch on so many aspects its hard to follow one train of discussion....
-High gas prices ARE a concern, even for rich people. Because they affect every aspect of the economy. So even if you own Wall-Mart your business is going to be cut big time because you have to spend millions more to transport goods and services to and from your store.
-America may be controlling most the flow of oil in Iraq currently, however, the price of the war has probably been greater than Bush may have anticipated... therefore, they are receiving oil at a bargain (by stealing it) but if you factor in the cost it has taken to "steal it" it is no longer a bargain price.
-America wants a permanent foothold in Iraq so that they can control the flow of oil for many years to come, but Al-Sadr and Al-Sistani are determined that there will be "no longterm contract with America".
-Last point, what American bussinessman's interests are being served by destroying the American economy?
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this might seem like a sweeping statement but oil is so old school. america should invest as much damn money as possible into getting some new fuel technologies into action asap. they might kill the environment less too. but then there wouldn't be an oil industry...hmm...
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^^^we already have the technology, but big oil is going to see to it that the proper infrastructure (hydrogen fueling stations, ethanol stations, natural gas stations, places to charge electric cars, etc) to support the move away from oil never gets built.
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the problem is basic economics...supply and demand.
Our retarded government doesn't let us make nuclear power plants or more oil refineries and if we do it will takes years to get all the shit passed. The problem is to much big government and regulation.
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I haven't read the whole thread yet, but word. Dude said it right there ^ economics. Government foreign policy decisions are not only based around a socio-cultural or political context, theres demand to think about. Its funny when Marxist theory really does begin to describe the world. It happens. Supply and demand baby. Theres a market for everything. They got the oil. Governments specialise in politics. Corporations specialise in the world economy. Thats the difference. Its amazing when you study history how you begin to see how much more simplier and unified our world is.
Dosn't mean there isn't
many rivers to trrrraaaaavel.
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Oil is denominated in dollars, the dollar keeps sinking and so therefore forcing many people to invest in commodities as a hedge against inflation. You don't seem to appreciate what I am getting at, it's in the interest of the elite business men to drive down an economy once they have many chained into the credit trap because this drives down the value of businesses and in doing so, allows for massive sectors of the economy to be snapped up. You have to look beyond the immediate impact and see the advantages to be had, how situations can be exploited.
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the problem is basic economics...supply and demand.
Our retarded government doesn't let us make nuclear power plants or more oil refineries and if we do it will takes years to get all the shit passed. The problem is to much big government and regulation.
As a Libertarian I can definitely agree with what you just said.
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Oil is denominated in dollars, the dollar keeps sinking and so therefore forcing many people to invest in commodities as a hedge against inflation. You don't seem to appreciate what I am getting at, it's in the interest of the elite business men to drive down an economy once they have many chained into the credit trap because this drives down the value of businesses and in doing so, allows for massive sectors of the economy to be snapped up. You have to look beyond the immediate impact and see the advantages to be had, how situations can be exploited.
Eye do dude, i appreciate fully yo insight into everything. I also see that people will survive. As I see it, because we are facing an amazing transition of our form of energy dependency, we have the opportunity to embrace self reliance; self sufficient and enviromentally harmonious communities. The ultimate dream of individualistic liberalism in an inter-related age of globalism! Of course the dangers are as present as they have always been. Especially here in Australia people can no longer afford their loans and there is a housing shortage because nobody wants to build, because interest rates are too high, etc, etc. But people will survive we are on a the verge of great changes in the world. People have shifted from economic arrangement to the next over and over drasticly all throughout history. Something, ive always been about... is a belief that people can infact live fulfilling lives regardless of the Leviathan form. The Serpent of Order has been in many different forms, our age is no different. But not everybody is tied down by interest rates or even fuel to run the course of their daily lives. And the ones that do, well thats market volatility, sorry. Alot of people are not chained into the credit cycle. There will be less traditional family units in later generations because people will be more and more career orientated. For native families in the West the financial responsibilites have been getting more taxing. Thats where immigration and infastructure comes in as is what the world market does, the US is also a nation drifting on the sea of the world market, buffeting around its inertia moving over states with it. The US buys oil and is dependent on oil the same as any other states, you know that they pay market price for that shit aswell! We have enough people committed, enough nations, enough industry, its cold hard reality that it will roll on regardless of the West's situation. World Governence through the flow of capital. Ain't new buts ever emerging from it's egg. What dreams may come. The market will recover, we are just going through a great transition from one form of energy to the other. The market will eventually, by our following at first or not will change to a different form of energy dependence. For it must always continue even through destruction and heights of glory and human acheivement in all its intrinsic marvel.
We are primal in our consumption.
http://www.youtube.com/v/xTs0in9KsrE&hl=en
* A gritty look at U.S. Military Personnel doing their jobs. *
Please to meet you, hope guess my name...
but whats puzzeling you is the nature of my name!
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My man I respect your outlook on things but I don't see things like that, by ensnaring so many in the credit traps, they have broken the back bone of the economy. If we are fortunate America will not experience a depression and instead we will just experience worldwide stagflation. Now this could be seen as a positive in some respects because it might lead to further impetus for state to be focusing on not being so dependent on outside sources for fuel and right now that's exactly where we are at. The major alternative to gas energy is nuclear power and I know many advocates of this technology but they can not answer one question what the hell is each nation going to do with it's current nuclear waste let alone a massive new influx, the idea banded around and circulating in popularity is to bury it underground but what the fuck are we doing to the surface of the earth by having such a method of storage.
I see the future right now and that's not in a mystical sense I mean from what has been announced, the pre conditioning towards carbon rationing cards, intrusive state control which is akin to slavery. It all goes back to the advert that I was pissed off about, the majority of the advert focused not on fossil fuels but instead attacking humanity itself, steady dehumanising. Look at the level of conditioning which we are already subjected to, all of the totalitarian controls which have been and intend to be implemented get sniggered at because of the use of the word totalitarian but that is exactly what these control mechanisms are. The bigger goal is about acceptance to being raped and that acceptance is brought about by selling a collective on an idea or a perception which you can convince the collective can make a difference.
We are dependent on oil, it's being used as a weapon right now, it's a concerted co-ordinated effort, the war has done it's job, decreased general wealth. brought about further dependency, increased the wealth and power of a select few and left people on tenterhooks as to where things will go next. If America or Israel is psychotic enough to attack Iran directly or launch some kind of fake terror attack and then one of the two attacks Iran, you are looking at the price of oil rocketing far and beyond $300 a barrel.
So I must therefore ask what is this new source of energy? because if it exists and works too well and is too plentiful, then it's going to be shutdown. This isn't about oil being scarce, that's just the simplistic bullshit which they try and sell the average person who never reads on. It's nothing to do with the demand from China again these are just the ready made reasons, the outskirts of the perimeter reasons, the dollar going into the toilet because of a deliberate and continual campaign of outsourcing, printing money at 16% increase in the money supply and a whole host of other reasons and the massive speculation bubble is fueling the oil prices.
The dollar is kept afloat at the moment by the fact that it's the world reserve currency but as the dollar keeps falling, dollar dependent nations will abandon their pegs and then things will get really interesting. As for the title of the thread George Orwell said it best when he concluded that the purpose of war was to destroy the surpluses of the world therefore maintaining the hierarchy of power. It doesn't matter to the chess players how many american soldiers die, how many iraqis are killed, shit they didn't give a damn about iraqi lives during the so called oil for food program either.
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You guys are missing the bigger picture. Don't think of oil merely as fuel.
The State Department in 1944(!): "oil has a stupendous source of strategic power, and is one of the greatest material prizes in world history.”
Dick Cheney: “the country that controls Middle East oil can exercise a stranglehold over the global economy"
James Paul (Global Policy Forum): "Modern warfare particularly depends on oil, because virtually all weapons systems rely on oil-based fuel – tanks, trucks, armored vehicles, self-propelled artillery pieces, airplanes, and naval ships. For this reason, the governments and general staffs of powerful nations seek to ensure a steady supply of oil during wartime, to fuel oil-hungry military forces in far-flung operational theaters. Such governments view their companies’ global interests as synonymous with the national interest and they readily support their companies’ efforts to control new production sources, to overwhelm foreign rivals, and to gain the most favorable pipeline routes and other transportation and distribution channels."
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^Word. I think we all seeing that though, its all about supply and demand like Machavelli said. I was for the most part incredibly high upon my last post......
My man I respect your outlook on things but I don't see things like that, by ensnaring so many in the credit traps, they have broken the back bone of the economy. If we are fortunate America will not experience a depression and instead we will just experience worldwide stagflation. Now this could be seen as a positive in some respects because it might lead to further impetus for state to be focusing on not being so dependent on outside sources for fuel and right now that's exactly where we are at. The major alternative to gas energy is nuclear power and I know many advocates of this technology but they can not answer one question what the hell is each nation going to do with it's current nuclear waste let alone a massive new influx, the idea banded around and circulating in popularity is to bury it underground but what the fuck are we doing to the surface of the earth by having such a method of storage.
Nuclear power I think we will be forced to depnd more upon, although the last Australian election was kind of a referendum on the use of nuclear power as John Howard presented it as the only viable alternative to fossil fuels, and anti-nuclear sentiment is strong in Australia, whenever US war ships come into Tasmania they are hounded by protesters as they are partly nuclear powered, also the Australian outback was being sold by Howard as a dumping ground for nuclear waste, he lost the election and it would be hard for any future government to sell the idea again to the Australian electorate. But regardless it is probably going to have to be utilized out of necessity. But that does not mean alternative renewable energy should not be the primary focus of redevelopment. I believe this opportunity for self-reliance will not only be about only renewable energy though, it has been and is increasinlgy mental and philosophical as people are and will begin to increasingly see and become increasingly conscious of mainstream political, religious and institutional hypocrisy, that I believe is a product of the increasing globalisation, and 'the war on terror' was an attempt' to bring people back into the fold of the mainstream paradigm of thinking.
I see the future right now and that's not in a mystical sense I mean from what has been announced, the pre conditioning towards carbon rationing cards, intrusive state control which is akin to slavery. It all goes back to the advert that I was pissed off about, the majority of the advert focused not on fossil fuels but instead attacking humanity itself, steady dehumanising. Look at the level of conditioning which we are already subjected to, all of the totalitarian controls which have been and intend to be implemented get sniggered at because of the use of the word totalitarian but that is exactly what these control mechanisms are. The bigger goal is about acceptance to being raped and that acceptance is brought about by selling a collective on an idea or a perception which you can convince the collective can make a difference.
Well the way humanity conducts itself is a problem, that is why changes in attitudes towards consumption and personal use are essential for a decrease of domestic reliance on fossil fuels. But not just that, people consume and fiend too much, it ain't good for the soul. I joined Greenpeace recently, solely based on my opposition to Japanese whalers, no more no less (although I emphasis with a number of the organization's concerns). As I said, nothing can change solely through institutions or government, there are individual responsibilies in regards to what we take from the Earth. You see it as alot of conditioning, maybe it is, fear mongerering and spin, but alot of that spin is often necessary for promotional purposes, for impact. I agree that people are subject to mass totalitarian manipulation, but as I said, there must be an increasing awakening of people's individual faculties to determine what is art and what is rubbish and ulterior spin. Our Australian advertisements are not so full-on, conserve water because there is a drought, conserve electricity, etc.
However, I understand your concerns.
"In searching for a new enemy to unite us [all of humanity], we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. In their totality and in their interactions, these phenomena constitute a common threat which as the enemy, we fall into the trap about which we have already warned, namely mistaking symptoms for causes. All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behaviour that they can be overcome. The real enemy then is humanity itself."
-from Mihajlo Mesarovic and Eduard Pestel, Mankind at the Turning Point: The Second Report to The Club of Rome (1974).
I see increasing world government as the trend, however, is it automatically good or bad? Nothing is ever so easily categorized my friend.
But Ive told my history professor; "in 50 years time, all you historians and poltical science academics will be scrambling to catch up with the internet conspiracy theorists".
The government here right now does not want to cut the tax on fuel, which the oppostion party is using to their advantage, simply because if it does, it will do nothing but delay the inevitable, that fuel use will increasingly become the domain of military and business use and decreasingly less that of the civilian domestic. Once again, that is why people themselves have an opportunity to develop self reliance and convservation. I think you see it as an attack, whereas I see it as an opportunity, a necessary opportunity. Western society will stagnate and wealth will decrease, hard times are ahead there will be quite a dip, but out of that may be born a greater sense of self-confidence and self-reliance a greater sense of conservation.
I got fam in the Philippines thoug and non of this shit is troubling them, they live at such a level that stock-market, interest rates, currency and world economy have little impact on their local way of life. When you are living so basic such troubles have little bearing. Life goes on somewhere, someplace.
We are dependent on oil, it's being used as a weapon right now, it's a concerted co-ordinated effort, the war has done it's job, decreased general wealth. brought about further dependency, increased the wealth and power of a select few and left people on tenterhooks as to where things will go next. If America or Israel is psychotic enough to attack Iran directly or launch some kind of fake terror attack and then one of the two attacks Iran, you are looking at the price of oil rocketing far and beyond $300 a barrel.
So I must therefore ask what is this new source of energy? because if it exists and works too well and is too plentiful, then it's going to be shutdown. This isn't about oil being scarce, that's just the simplistic bullshit which they try and sell the average person who never reads on. It's nothing to do with the demand from China again these are just the ready made reasons, the outskirts of the perimeter reasons, the dollar going into the toilet because of a deliberate and continual campaign of outsourcing, printing money at 16% increase in the money supply and a whole host of other reasons and the massive speculation bubble is fueling the oil prices.
Ive agreed with you on the ramifications you just mentioned. The most who are being affected now is us, the middle class in the west and the working poor, but that is not to say that upper class business owners will not experience the bite. But I disagree, demand of oil is part of the 'problem' and its always something anyway, there is always a problem so long as we associate personal enjoyment of life with consumption.
I don't think there will be any more deliberate attempts to exacerbate the situation in the Middle east atleast from the US or Israel. Because the effects are already too heavy...at least not until the price of oil stabilises, they are nuts, but not so nuts as to utterly decimate the West's economy, then what could they tax then? How you going to tax an income when people don't have incomes? That is why you suddenly have peace talks again between Israel and their neighbours and Bush again making half-assed claims of working towards peace, economy determines what these people do more than anything.
I alluded to this 'new source of energy' when I posted the article on the ex-defence minister calling for the release of the alien technology. Of course I dunno if such a thing exists, but as I said, if they did, it would make sense that they would have it and are holding onto it and not sharing with humanity (the proper Luciferian thing to do would be to release it!)
The dollar is kept afloat at the moment by the fact that it's the world reserve currency but as the dollar keeps falling, dollar dependent nations will abandon their pegs and then things will get really interesting. As for the title of the thread George Orwell said it best when he concluded that the purpose of war was to destroy the surpluses of the world therefore maintaining the hierarchy of power. It doesn't matter to the chess players how many american soldiers die, how many iraqis are killed, shit they didn't give a damn about iraqi lives during the so called oil for food program either.
Word. Orwell was very appropriate to draw upon. Your vision is commendable.
As I said, despite 'the Leviathan form', 'the Beast', 'the serpent, the deciever of the whole world' or whatever name you would ascribe to our system will probably remain in place until the gods wipe the slate clean, but til then, the best we can do is live a good life and that is of no minor worthiness. Thats my policy.
This is what should be done
By one who is skilled in goodness,
And who knows the path of peace:
Let them be able and upright,
Straightforward and gentle in speech.
Humble and not conceited,
Contented and easily satisified.
unburdened with duties and the frugal in their ways.
Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful,
Not proud and demanding in nature.
Let them not do the slightest thing
That the wise would later reprove.
-The Buddha's Words on Kindness (Metta Sutta)
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wrong
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wrong
Check out the Unhived mind!
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Listen my friend I am not saying there are not good genuine decent people in the environmental groups of course there are but environmentalism is becoming the new face of hardcore communism. It is the very world governent/new world order/corporate business elite who are setting this all up so that right there answers the question of if a world government is a good or a bad thing, it's a system designed by psychopaths.
Now, if you want to see the intended future for most of us under this system, revisit 1984, that is the level they want to reduce us all to. Sometimes I laugh about this shit because it's so crazy but yesterday I despaired, I watched the BBC selling thiis carbon slave system on television and it was all done with wonderful sweet smiles, these fucking minions were telling the viewer how wonderful it was and how you could make money out of it.
As for using wars as a weapon, it's called destroy and rebuild, every time they rebuild, we are further under their control, collectively if we don't say no, then you can look forward to the prole like vision of 1984 very soon. They don't need us anymore, technology is advancing at such a fast rate, they really only need the military muscles.
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The problem with gasoline is, it affects every single driving person. America is just now paying the same rates on gas, as the rest of Europe and Canada. We've been living on high gas prices for years, and guess what? Almost every European government and Canada have committed to all fuel sold being a 10% ethanol blend. That's a good step in the right direction. Doesn't take that much biofuels to make a 10% blend.
Personally, people burning gas isn't what's wrong with the whole petroleum industry. If you think about it, we absolutely need gasoline for the economy to function, people need to get to work. What we don't need is the government building natural gas, gasoline and oil power plants. Petroleum power plants is the biggest waste of oil in the US. Build some damn nuclear plants, or even coal, or some renewable sources.
Even the idea of burning oil is any form is a waste, when it could be used for plastics, rubbers and chemical industries. Why burn it when you can turn it into something. Hydrogen fuel won't catch on for at least a decade, using ethanol blends, and reducing the number of oil based power plants is the only thing that could keep the price of gas reasonable until we decide to move to hydrogen or even pure ethanol.
The fact oil is so high is really shows how ignorant people are. It's going up, and it will never go back down. It's going to keep climbing forever. This should be a wake up call for change. Instead the government proposes short term "free gas days" or those damned refund checks. We need to start conserving oil so we can use it for more important things, instead of just burning it.
I highly agree with the first post. In the beginning they thought they could get away with taking oil from Iraq, then they realized they just got themselves fucked. The whole "Food for Oil" thing they had going was also a scam. "Let's blow up your country, then you'll need to take our food." Or maybe they knew all along the price of oil would skyrocket, just so Bush's friends can get rich.
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^^Truth.
Believe it or not, oil is (very) slowly becoming a passing thing. Before people just accepted high prices because there was nothing they can do. They need to drive. But now it's coming to the point were people simply can't afford gas. It's sad that it takes such an extreme for the ignorant masses to take notice, but it finally has. Soon gas will go up to $5 as gallon. Oil prices will never be able to stabilize for 2 reasons. War/politics and simply because there is not enough oil. Just look and the auto industry. GM and Ford have reported that SUV and truck sales have come to a halt while Honda had to increase production for such high demand on the new civics. Countries are slowly seeing a steady growth in solar power, wind power, etc. Hydrogen and nuclear will soon follow. The question is will we be driven to bankruptcy before this happens?
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We lost the moment we set foot in Iraq because occupying a country simply never works. The Israelis learned it in Lebanon, we should have learned it in Vietnam, and lots of other Western armies have learned the same lesson since the 1950s.
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for once i kind of agree with virtuoso..
and infinite you should get your facts strait before talking crazy shit... i have no idea what you are speculating, but it seems simple minded to think the US went into IRAQ thinking oil prices would drop by them stealing some of it...
the middle east is in war, its only natural oil prices would go up.