West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Sports & Entertainment => Topic started by: teecee on February 18, 2009, 03:01:38 PM
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Kobe is nice obviously, Chris Paul has had a few nice ones lately, B-roy is the shit, Lebron is better than people think (he scores the most 4th quarter points in close games of anyone in the league), but this one website keeps track of this shit, so check it below. Can't believe someone has the time to do all this.........
Melo the best??????????? Hmmmmmmmm.
And Lakers fans, I know stats don't matter to you when they don't support your cause so don't read anymore cuz' you won't like this shit.
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm
Game Winning Shots
by Roland Beech, 82games.com
(Corrected 2/9 for Dwyane Wade 03-04 errors..."Dwayne")
Ah yes, when it comes to requests for updated stats on features we've done in the past, nothing comes close to the clamor for another look at "game winning shots" in the NBA. The last time we investigated this was way back on 4/13/2006 as part of the Random Stat collection, and Carmelo Anthony came out on top for the most shots made by the definition we used (see below) as well as doing it with a wonderful .647 field goal percentage. That is a long time ago though, so let's see what the current word is!
First off there's really one main issue -- what exactly do we want to define as a game winning shot? If we make it too restrictive, as in a real last second shot at the buzzer, then you are dealing with tiny, tiny sample sizes. So instead, we proposed the following filter:
Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.
Why use this definition?
1. With 24 seconds or less, then it truly is a "last possession" situation potentially
2. With a margin from tied to down 2, the team can take the lead with a made basket (including 3's)
3. By excluding a down 3 situation, we don't have the "gimme two point buckets" that defenses will sometimes yield to the quick bucket/intentional foul strategy option you often see exercised.
Obviously though this definition means a shot may not actually be a game winner -- it may only tie a game (if down two points) or it may allow enough time for the opponents to get a game winning shot of their own. Still it seems a reasonable compromise.
Data sample
Regular Seasons: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08, '08-09 (thru 2/4)
Playoffs: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08
So we're looking at five full regular and playoff seasons, with additionally the current 08-09 season so far.
Leading "Game Winning Shot" Players
Player
Fgm
Fga
Fg%
Ftm
Fta
Ast
T/O
League Wide 853 2858
.298
610 815 352 296
LeBron James 17 50
.340
14 20 6 4
Vince Carter 16 51
.314
10 11 3 4
Ray Allen 15 39
.385
4 6 1 2
Kobe Bryant 14 56
.250
12 15 1 5
Carmelo Anthony 13 27
.481
7 11 1 4
Allen Iverson 13 33
.394
6 8 1 2
Ben Gordon 12 34
.353
6 6 1 4
Dirk Nowitzki 12 37
.324
13 18 1 3
Joe Johnson 12 45
.267
2 3 4 2
Paul Pierce 11 32
.344
15 17 9 3
Dwyane Wade 11 40
.275
13 17 3 2
Jamal Crawford 11 43
.256
4 6 3 3
Rashard Lewis 10 26
.385
10 13 0 1
Ricky Davis 10 28
.357
11 11 2 1
Antawn Jamison 9 16
.563
2 5 0 1
Pau Gasol 9 18
.500
4 6 1 4
Steve Francis 9 22
.409
4 5 2 2
Tim Duncan 9 23
.391
6 7 3 1
Gilbert Arenas 9 28
.321
18 18 0 4
Michael Redd 9 30
.300
8 14 0 1
Tracy McGrady 9 32
.281
8 8 3 1
Kevin Garnett 9 33
.273
3 3 1 0
Hedo Turkoglu 8 16
.500
2 3 3 3
Derek Fisher 8 20
.400
2 2 2 1
Chris Paul 8 21
.381
3 4 5 1
Mike Bibby 8 22
.364
2 2 6 1
Richard Hamilton 8 22
.364
4 4 3 3
Andre Iguodala 8 22
.364
10 11 2 3
Jason Terry 8 26
.308
2 3 5 1
Mehmet Okur 7 15
.467
4 4 1 0
Zach Randolph 7 17
.412
6 8 0 0
Brandon Roy 7 19
.368
3 4 3 1
Baron Davis 7 22
.318
4 4 4 2
Raymond Felton 7 24
.292
4 5 2 1
Travis Outlaw 6 7
.857
3 5 0 0
Carlos Boozer 6 9
.667
1 1 0 1
Jalen Rose 6 10
.600
4 5 0 4
Josh Smith 6 11
.545
3 3 0 2
Grant Hill 6 12
.500
0 0 0 0
Damon Jones 6 12
.500
1 1 1 0
Caron Butler 6 13
.462
6 7 1 1
Damon Stoudamire 6 13
.462
0 0 4 1
Kevin Martin 6 14
.429
2 3 0 0
David West 6 15
.400
2 2 0 1
Tyronn Lue 6 16
.375
4 6 0 0
Shawn Marion 6 16
.375
2 2 1 0
Tony Parker 6 16
.375
0 0 4 0
Tayshaun Prince 6 17
.353
2 2 5 1
Deron Williams 6 17
.353
3 3 5 1
Yao Ming 6 18
.333
9 10 0 1
Richard Jefferson 6 19
.316
3 4 2 1
Chris Webber 6 19
.316
0 0 1 1
Manu Ginobili 6 21
.286
4 7 3 4
Chauncey Billups 6 37
.162
18 19 6 2
Eddy Curry 5 7
.714
2 2 0 0
Peja Stojakovic 5 8
.625
1 1 1 0
Kevin Durant 5 14
.357
1 1 1 0
Rudy Gay 5 14
.357
3 4 0 1
Danny Granger 5 14
.357
0 0 0 0
Mike James 5 15
.333
3 7 2 0
Ron Artest 5 16
.313
1 1 2 3
Stephen Jackson 5 20
.250
1 1 4 2
Rasheed Wallace 5 30
.167
2 2 0 2
Ronald Murray 4 4
%1.000
5 6 0 1
David Lee 4 5
.800
0 0 0 0
Andrew Bogut 4 6
.667
0 0 2 1
P.J. Brown 4 7
.571
0 0 0 0
Udonis Haslem 4 8
.500
0 0 0 1
James Posey 4 8
.500
1 1 1 1
Michael Finley 4 9
.444
2 2 4 1
Devin Harris 4 10
.400
0 0 1 0
Larry Hughes 4 10
.400
4 4 3 4
Eddie Jones 4 11
.364
0 1 2 0
T.J. Ford 4 15
.267
1 3 3 2
Mike Miller 4 20
.200
0 2 2 2
Jermaine O'Neal 4 22
.182
4 4 1 0
The first thing to note is that these types of shots are very difficult on a league wide basis: a .298 Field Goal percentage doesn't exactly inspire confidence!
Part of this is that game winning chances may come with just a couple of seconds or less remaining in the game from the inbounds. So manufacturing any shot at all in some cases is to the player's credit. In some cases it can even be a half court heave!
LeBron James was just 4-19 in our previous look at game winning shots, so in the ensuing two and a half seasons, he has come up with a very respectable 13-31 (.419) record and just the other day had a pure game winner at the buzzer to top the Warriors. In addition he has six assists and a healthy number of free throws earned.
Vince Carter doesn't get a lot of love from fans for the most part but is actually #2 in the standings for most game winners over this period.
Ray Allen is in third overall but also leads in most 3's made under our game winning defined situation specifics, with eight three pointers. Long live the NBA's arguably best pure shooter (Ray also currently leads the NBA in Midrange 2pt FG%).
...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!
42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups
Now we're not Kobe haters by any means and I will readily give him his due as one of the best NBA players (note however, I didn't say the best) but he certainly has an overblown reputation when it comes to the clutch shot: people remember the ones he hits, but not the ones he misses, and heck you think a 56 FGA to 1 assist ratio might be part of the problem? He does have a better record in the playoffs though, which we'll get to down below.
Carmelo Anthony has slipped from the former top spot, but still a worthy challenger with the best fg% of any player with at least 10 makes.
Beyond that, you see a lot of familiar names, most with low success rates, and a lot of players with very low assists.
Paul Pierce is an exception as he stands at the head of the class for 'game winning assists' with nine, ahead of Nash, Kidd, Billups, and the rest.
Oy! you say, what about the up and comers who may not have been playing all that long? Obviously Chris Paul (8-21), Igoudala (8-22), and Bradon Roy (7-19) are climbing the charts rapidly. Let's do a quick tab of the season by season leaders (fgm-fga):
'03-04
Stoudamire 5-9
J.Rose 4-4
Yao 4-7
Carter 4-11
R.Allen 3-5
Z.Randolph 3-5
Redd 3-8 '04-05
Iverson 5-7
Francis 5-8
P.J. Brown (!) 4-6
B.Gordon 4-7
Da.Jones 4-7
Pierce 4-9
Wade 4-11 '05-06
Carmelo 7-10
Gasol 6-9
R.Allen 5-11
J.Johnson 5-16
Fisher 4-6
Crawford 4-8
Webber 4-9 '06-07
R.Lewis 5-7
B.Gordon 5-14
R.Davis 4-8
Carter 4-9
Paul 4-9 '07-08
LeBron 6-14
T.Outlaw 5-5
Ginobili 3-4
R.Allen 3-7 '08-09
Granger 5-7
Roy 4-7
R.Mason 3-3
Durant 3-8
Felton 3-8
Now let's turn back to giving Kobe fans the ammunition they need to continue telling us how Mr. Bryant is the most uber-clutch guy in the NBA...with a look at Playoff Game Winning Shots
Leading "Game Winning Shot" Players: PLAYOFFS
Player
Fgm
Fga
Fg%
Ftm
Fta
Ast
T/O
NBA 45 159
.283
28 37 17 19
Kobe Bryant 4 8
.500
0 0 0 0
LeBron James 4 8
.500
0 1 1 0
Dirk Nowitzki 3 6
.500
6 8 1 1
Dwyane Wade 2 2
1.000
2 2 1 0
Caron Butler 2 3
.667
0 0 0 0
Gilbert Arenas 2 5
.400
3 3 0 0
Tim Duncan 2 6
.333
0 0 1 0
Manu Ginobili 2 6
.333
1 2 2 1
Chauncey Billups 2 9
.222
2 2 0 0
So now you have select company with only eight players, all of them all stars, with at least two makes. And yes, Kobe Bryant is indeed tied for first and with an excellent .500 percentage as well.
The truth seems to be that while we want to believe in the infallible hero who comes through every time, in the NBA even the brightest of the bunch are lucky to come through one out of three times.
Ultimately though while this kind of thing is fun, it's not to my mind particularly meaningful, other than indicating that the league as a whole could probably get more efficient in "end game" possessions...one easy place to start might be to try and be less predictable! It's nice to have a go-to guy, but when the other team knows without much doubt that a certain guy is getting the ball, it is going to be a lot easier to defend!
Jordan won a lot of championships, and personally hit a lot of clutch shots, but there were also games where classic second/third option guys like Paxson and Kerr were the ones benefiting from his greatness by getting open looks and delivering...
So instead of "does my team have a great clutch go-to guy" you might want to ask do we have a plan B?
For better quality analysis of clutch play, I prefer a filter of "last five minutes of fourth quarter/overtime, with neither team ahead by more than five points." Each player has a page for the stats accrued under these circumstances, and we also have sortable tables, eg see
- '07-08 Clutch Player Leaders
- '08-09 Clutch Player Leaders
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nice post +1
it really goes to show how hard it is in the nba to hit shots under so much pressure. it also shows that when players can be arsed to play defence they can.
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Melo is actually one of the clutchest players in the league, but being clutch is hell of a lot more than just statistics. It's the ability to keep your cool and carry through in the tough situations, it doesn't necessarily only have to do with making shots (see: the entire UCLA team vs Adam Morrison's Gonzaga in March Madness).
Hell, Dirk's "clutch stats" aren't as bad as everybody would think, and yet he's still internationally known as a choke artist.
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that list is can
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LOL@idiots who follow shit like 82games instead of watching games for themselves and making legit judgement...this shit doesnt take into account shit like Kobe not playing most the 4th quarters this year due to every game being a blowout...step it up. according to todays Lakers-Warriors broadcast, Kobe got voted by 80% of the league and 90% of the coaches and gms as the person they'd want to shoot the last shot of the game. the next highest person on the list (probably either wade or lebron) got 3%...3 fucking %...this thread=more proof stats doesn't mean shit.
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Everybody knows Kobe is the definition of clutch player.
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LOL@idiots who follow shit like 82games instead of watching games for themselves and making legit judgement...this shit doesnt take into account shit like Kobe not playing most the 4th quarters this year due to every game being a blowout...step it up. according to todays Lakers-Warriors broadcast, Kobe got voted by 80% of the league and 90% of the coaches and gms as the person they'd want to shoot the last shot of the game. the next highest person on the list (probably either wade or lebron) got 3%...3 fucking %...this thread=more proof stats doesn't mean shit.
if stats dont mean shit, how come youve always used them when they were in your favor?
The list is cool and all. NIK brings up a sort of valid point. This year Kobe hasnt been in situations where he needs to hit as many game winning shots cus the Lakers have been winning int he 4th quarter most of the time. What he fails to bring up (conveniently) is that this list is from what, the last 5 yrs. He didnt bring up the fact that before last year, Kobe wasnt having the opportunity to hit many game winnin shots cus his team was behind by too much lol But thats why with this list you would need to focus on shooting percentage, not the AMOUNT of game winners. Funny enough, in shooting percentage Kobe is near the bottom....Chauncey aswell, who people usually think of as clutch. But the amount of game winners means shit really.
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Everybody knows Kobe is the definition of clutch player.
...besides stataholics who can't sit through a game. and even they know whatsup deep inside.
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Everybody knows Kobe is the definition of clutch player.
...besides stataholics who can't sit through a game. and even they know whatsup deep inside.
Ive never been a huge stat guy, theyre relevant, but they arent everything. With you bashing "stats" so much though right now...in THIS argument. It should be safe to assume you will never use stats as a basis for your arguments anymore right?
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82games.com uses a very narrow definition of clutch plays. There is more to being a clutch performer then just making the final shot. How about performances in the last 2 minutes? 3 minutes? It can be just as crucial as what leads up to that final play. Then again it is pretty hard to factor in all those variables into sortable stats. As far a Kobe goes, I've felt that over the past couple years, he's fallen a little short of his reputation. This is almost always done by forcing shots he shouldn't take or playing outside of the offense (see game 3 of last years playoffs against the Jazz). Other times he plays hot in the 4th quarter and never looks back. But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
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LOL@idiots who follow shit like 82games instead of watching games for themselves and making legit judgement...this shit doesnt take into account shit like Kobe not playing most the 4th quarters this year due to every game being a blowout...step it up. according to todays Lakers-Warriors broadcast, Kobe got voted by 80% of the league and 90% of the coaches and gms as the person they'd want to shoot the last shot of the game. the next highest person on the list (probably either wade or lebron) got 3%...3 fucking %...this thread=more proof stats doesn't mean shit.
First, look at the percentage- Kobe is at the bottom, likely because his shot attempt to pass ratio on game-winners is 51 to 1. He only shoots .250 in this situation, so that isn't amazing is it. Of course, great clutch players are remembered for the ones they make, and Kobe has made some big ones. I agree that stats don't mean everything, but your boy Kobe isn't qutie as amazing in the clutch as his reputation would suggest.
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82games.com uses a very narrow definition of clutch plays. There is more to being a clutch performer then just making the final shot. How about performances in the last 2 minutes? 3 minutes? It can be just as crucial as what leads up to that final play. Then again it is pretty hard to factor in all those variables into sortable stats. As far a Kobe goes, I've felt that over the past couple years, he's fallen a little short of his reputation. This is almost always done by forcing shots he shouldn't take or playing outside of the offense (see game 3 of last years playoffs against the Jazz). Other times he plays hot in the 4th quarter and never looks back. But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
WEll, if anyone wants a more accurate depiction of who is really clutch, check this, also fro 82games.com. And yes, I know stats don't mean everything, and in the case they don't support your boy, they mean nothing, but this is still interesting to b-ball junkies.
Sortable NBA Player "Clutch" Stats
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
2007-2008 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 4/17/2008
Click on a column header to sort by that stat
Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time
Team Plr Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
CLE James 51 215 141 +31 36.1 .475 12.3 .309 22.5 79% 56.0 23% 9.6 8.2 3.6 2.2 2.9
LAL Bryant 39 136 31 +11 33.8 .448 4.6 .385 23.3 84% 51.8 23% 8.1 6.0 4.2 0.7 0.4
DAL Nowitzki 40 131 45 +17 30.5 .422 8.8 .333 19.9 87% 46.0 45% 13.6 4.4 1.8 1.8 0.7
SAS Ginobili 35 127 49 +18 20.3 .574 9.4 .440 16.9 93% 43.3 38% 7.2 10.5 2.6 0.4 3.0
CHI Gordon 31 118 -52 -21 28.2 .377 9.8 .458 18.0 90% 42.0 61% 2.9 2.9 4.1 0.0 1.2
SEA Durant 35 135 -15 -5 23.4 .470 5.3 .667 18.4 88% 41.8 61% 5.7 2.8 4.3 2.1 1.8
MIL Redd 41 146 -34 -11 26.6 .395 10.8 .273 21.3 83% 41.6 31% 5.9 3.6 3.9 0.0 0.7
PHO Nash 40 139 36 +12 21.0 .508 10.3 .533 15.2 88% 40.3 16% 4.8 12.8 6.2 0.0 0.7
PHO Stoudemire 36 140 33 +11 22.6 .500 1.0 .000 20.9 81% 39.8 75% 14.4 1.0 2.4 1.0 2.4
GSW Jackson 39 140 58 +20 19.5 .474 15.7 .457 16.4 85% 39.7 85% 5.8 2.7 2.4 0.7 0.7
NOH Paul 30 131 30 +11 24.5 .478 5.5 .400 15.7 83% 38.8 15% 6.2 10.6 2.6 0.0 2.9
This is for last year, but it shows you that Kobne and Lebron were far and away the best ture "clutch" players last year. Basically, what this all means is Kobe isn't quite as good as some people think in the clutch, and Lebron is better than people think.
But I agree if I needed one shot to win it, I would still go with Kobe. But he isn't on a Jordan-like level or anything.
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
I mean shooting the ball.
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82games.com uses a very narrow definition of clutch plays. There is more to being a clutch performer then just making the final shot. How about performances in the last 2 minutes? 3 minutes? It can be just as crucial as what leads up to that final play. Then again it is pretty hard to factor in all those variables into sortable stats. As far a Kobe goes, I've felt that over the past couple years, he's fallen a little short of his reputation. This is almost always done by forcing shots he shouldn't take or playing outside of the offense (see game 3 of last years playoffs against the Jazz). Other times he plays hot in the 4th quarter and never looks back. But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
WEll, if anyone wants a more accurate depiction of who is really clutch, check this, also fro 82games.com. And yes, I know stats don't mean everything, and in the case they don't support your boy, they mean nothing, but this is still interesting to b-ball junkies.
Sortable NBA Player "Clutch" Stats
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
2007-2008 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 4/17/2008
Click on a column header to sort by that stat
Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time
Team Plr Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
CLE James 51 215 141 +31 36.1 .475 12.3 .309 22.5 79% 56.0 23% 9.6 8.2 3.6 2.2 2.9
LAL Bryant 39 136 31 +11 33.8 .448 4.6 .385 23.3 84% 51.8 23% 8.1 6.0 4.2 0.7 0.4
DAL Nowitzki 40 131 45 +17 30.5 .422 8.8 .333 19.9 87% 46.0 45% 13.6 4.4 1.8 1.8 0.7
SAS Ginobili 35 127 49 +18 20.3 .574 9.4 .440 16.9 93% 43.3 38% 7.2 10.5 2.6 0.4 3.0
CHI Gordon 31 118 -52 -21 28.2 .377 9.8 .458 18.0 90% 42.0 61% 2.9 2.9 4.1 0.0 1.2
SEA Durant 35 135 -15 -5 23.4 .470 5.3 .667 18.4 88% 41.8 61% 5.7 2.8 4.3 2.1 1.8
MIL Redd 41 146 -34 -11 26.6 .395 10.8 .273 21.3 83% 41.6 31% 5.9 3.6 3.9 0.0 0.7
PHO Nash 40 139 36 +12 21.0 .508 10.3 .533 15.2 88% 40.3 16% 4.8 12.8 6.2 0.0 0.7
PHO Stoudemire 36 140 33 +11 22.6 .500 1.0 .000 20.9 81% 39.8 75% 14.4 1.0 2.4 1.0 2.4
GSW Jackson 39 140 58 +20 19.5 .474 15.7 .457 16.4 85% 39.7 85% 5.8 2.7 2.4 0.7 0.7
NOH Paul 30 131 30 +11 24.5 .478 5.5 .400 15.7 83% 38.8 15% 6.2 10.6 2.6 0.0 2.9
This is for last year, but it shows you that Kobne and Lebron were far and away the best ture "clutch" players last year. Basically, what this all means is Kobe isn't quite as good as some people think in the clutch, and Lebron is better than people think.
But I agree if I needed one shot to win it, I would still go with Kobe. But he isn't on a Jordan-like level or anything.
once again though, I think FG% is as important if not more important then actualy points. If you have a game with 5 minutes left, game is tied. One player goes 4-4, scores 10 points. Another player goes 5-8, scores 12 points. Who is performing better in the clutch? Assuming neither player is turning the ball over, id take the guy who scored one less point but didnt miss a field goal over the guy who took 8 of his teams shots and only made 5, but scored 2 more points. Chances are the guy who went 4-4 created points for someone else on his team.
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
I mean shooting the ball.
A dominant big man. They have better shooting percentages.
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
I mean shooting the ball.
A dominant big man. They have better shooting percentages.
Let me guess: Tim Duncan? ;) Okay, how about down by 3?
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82games.com uses a very narrow definition of clutch plays. There is more to being a clutch performer then just making the final shot. How about performances in the last 2 minutes? 3 minutes? It can be just as crucial as what leads up to that final play. Then again it is pretty hard to factor in all those variables into sortable stats. As far a Kobe goes, I've felt that over the past couple years, he's fallen a little short of his reputation. This is almost always done by forcing shots he shouldn't take or playing outside of the offense (see game 3 of last years playoffs against the Jazz). Other times he plays hot in the 4th quarter and never looks back. But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
WEll, if anyone wants a more accurate depiction of who is really clutch, check this, also fro 82games.com. And yes, I know stats don't mean everything, and in the case they don't support your boy, they mean nothing, but this is still interesting to b-ball junkies.
Sortable NBA Player "Clutch" Stats
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points
2007-2008 NBA Season Stats
Last update: 4/17/2008
Click on a column header to sort by that stat
Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time
Team Plr Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
CLE James 51 215 141 +31 36.1 .475 12.3 .309 22.5 79% 56.0 23% 9.6 8.2 3.6 2.2 2.9
LAL Bryant 39 136 31 +11 33.8 .448 4.6 .385 23.3 84% 51.8 23% 8.1 6.0 4.2 0.7 0.4
DAL Nowitzki 40 131 45 +17 30.5 .422 8.8 .333 19.9 87% 46.0 45% 13.6 4.4 1.8 1.8 0.7
SAS Ginobili 35 127 49 +18 20.3 .574 9.4 .440 16.9 93% 43.3 38% 7.2 10.5 2.6 0.4 3.0
CHI Gordon 31 118 -52 -21 28.2 .377 9.8 .458 18.0 90% 42.0 61% 2.9 2.9 4.1 0.0 1.2
SEA Durant 35 135 -15 -5 23.4 .470 5.3 .667 18.4 88% 41.8 61% 5.7 2.8 4.3 2.1 1.8
MIL Redd 41 146 -34 -11 26.6 .395 10.8 .273 21.3 83% 41.6 31% 5.9 3.6 3.9 0.0 0.7
PHO Nash 40 139 36 +12 21.0 .508 10.3 .533 15.2 88% 40.3 16% 4.8 12.8 6.2 0.0 0.7
PHO Stoudemire 36 140 33 +11 22.6 .500 1.0 .000 20.9 81% 39.8 75% 14.4 1.0 2.4 1.0 2.4
GSW Jackson 39 140 58 +20 19.5 .474 15.7 .457 16.4 85% 39.7 85% 5.8 2.7 2.4 0.7 0.7
NOH Paul 30 131 30 +11 24.5 .478 5.5 .400 15.7 83% 38.8 15% 6.2 10.6 2.6 0.0 2.9
This is for last year, but it shows you that Kobne and Lebron were far and away the best ture "clutch" players last year. Basically, what this all means is Kobe isn't quite as good as some people think in the clutch, and Lebron is better than people think.
But I agree if I needed one shot to win it, I would still go with Kobe. But he isn't on a Jordan-like level or anything.
once again though, I think FG% is as important if not more important then actualy points. If you have a game with 5 minutes left, game is tied. One player goes 4-4, scores 10 points. Another player goes 5-8, scores 12 points. Who is performing better in the clutch? Assuming neither player is turning the ball over, id take the guy who scored one less point but didnt miss a field goal over the guy who took 8 of his teams shots and only made 5, but scored 2 more points. Chances are the guy who went 4-4 created points for someone else on his team.
Well, it goes Ginobli, Nash, Paul, Stoudemire, Lebron then. Assists-Ginobli again, with Paul and Lebron up there.. REbounds- Nowitzki, Stpudemire, Lebron
What about plus-minus in clutch time. Lebron and Stoudemire were through the roof. A certain individual was not.
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
your best shot at winning in that situation would be putting the ball in Kobe's hands. if you think otherwise, you're stupider than i thought (which is almost not possible).
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mj doesnt have incredible clutch stats according to 82games...LOL. lebron>mj!!!
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
I mean shooting the ball.
A dominant big man. They have better shooting percentages.
Let me guess: Tim Duncan? ;) Okay, how about down by 3?
Robert Horry. ;D
you saw the Phoenix series last year, "Duncan for three!!!" lol
Dont get me wrong man, Kobe is a great clutch performer...no doubt. There's no arguing that. But I DO think it can be argued who is the best clutch performer in the league. Players have to play to their strengths, even in clutch time. Steve Nash is a great floor General. He's great at leading his team and finding the best shot available for his team no matter who takes it. That doesnt mean in the clutch, he should turn into a score first point guard in order to be considered clutch.
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
your best shot at winning in that situation would be putting the ball in Kobe's hands. if you think otherwise, you're stupider than i thought (which is almost not possible).
definetely. A Kobe fade-away three with three defenders in his face > kicking it out to wide open Fisher for a 15 foot jumper.
Youre a genius Scittles...
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
your best shot at winning in that situation would be putting the ball in Kobe's hands. if you think otherwise, you're stupider than i thought (which is almost not possible).
definetely. A Kobe fade-away three with three defenders in his face > kicking it out to wide open Fisher for a 15 foot jumper.
Youre a genius Scittles...
do you even watch Kobe play? if fisher is available for an open 15 footer, Kobe WILL get it to him...that's why u want the ball in kobe's hands. step it up.
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mj doesnt have incredible clutch stats according to 82games...LOL. lebron>mj!!!
My friend from Chicago told me once, when I just assumed MJ will make clutch shots, that MJ was not the clutch player we all thought. He was like, nah, he'll miss a lot. Like Kobe, lately his getting hot again in the clutch, but last year and earlier this year it just seemed too forced.
Stats are stats, and what we see, and what the numbers show are two different things but numbers don't lie. I will say this, most clutch Laker I ever saw was Nick Van Exel during the 94-95 season. It seemed like every shot he took was a comeback from behind win, but yet the Lakers only won like 48 games that year, so not every game winner actually won the game. So it is what it is. Player like Kobe and MJ though get their reputations in the clutch for one reason, they want the ball in their hands. They want the game to be in their hards, and with that risk comes the rewards.
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Kobe by far. Top 5 clutch players in NBA history, no order
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Reggie Miller
Larry Bird
Jerry West
^^^The perfect 5 when it comes to CLUTCH, aint messing with that 5
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don't forget James Worthy, guy had great numbers, from fall to summer
my pops told me he was tha shit
here are some stats for Big Game James, very impressive
Hall of Fame ('03)
3-Time NBA Champion ('85,'87,'88)
NBA Finals MVP ('88)
7-Time All-Star
- 21.1 PPG 54% FG (143 Career Playoff Games)
- 22.2 PPG 53% FG (34 NBA Finals Games)
- 21.5 PPG 62% FG (1985 Playoffs)
- 23.7 PPG 56% FG (1985 Finals)
- 23.6 PPG 59% FG (1987 Playoffs)
- 20.7 PPG 52% FG (1987 Finals)
- 21.1 PPG 52% FG (1988 Playoffs)
- 28 PTS 9 REB (Game 6, 1988 Finals)
- 36 PTS 16 REB 10 AST (Game 7, 1988 Finals)
- 20.0 PPG 49% FG (1988 Finals)
- 24.8 PPG 57% FG (1989 Playoffs)
- 25.5 PPG 48% FG (1989 Finals)
- 17.6 PPG 52% FG (Career)
- 13.4 PPG 58% FG (Rookie Season, 77 Games)
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
your best shot at winning in that situation would be putting the ball in Kobe's hands. if you think otherwise, you're stupider than i thought (which is almost not possible).
definetely. A Kobe fade-away three with three defenders in his face > kicking it out to wide open Fisher for a 15 foot jumper.
Youre a genius Scittles...
Did you see yesterday's game? ;D
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But bottom line, down by 2, final shot, who do you want taking it? Exactly.
What do u mean by "taking it"? As in, "who do you want with the ball in his hands"? Kobe can create a shot for himself as well as anyone in the league, but I dont always want the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game to be the one always taking the shot. I want the guy who wont turn it over, wont force a stupid shot, and gets his team the BEST POSSIBLE shot whether its him who takes it...or somebody else.
your best shot at winning in that situation would be putting the ball in Kobe's hands. if you think otherwise, you're stupider than i thought (which is almost not possible).
definetely. A Kobe fade-away three with three defenders in his face > kicking it out to wide open Fisher for a 15 foot jumper.
Youre a genius Scittles...
Did you see yesterday's game? ;D
exactly my point! Kobe didnt get the ball to Fisher though lol Scittles point was that Kobe taking the last shot is your best option. My argument is that thats not always true. Last night, perfect example. Consider who Im arguing with tho man. Its NIK...cmon. Its like me telling a religious nut to prove theres a God and having him turn around and saying "yes there is, because God is the best!". Similar situation lol
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mj doesnt have incredible clutch stats according to 82games...LOL. lebron>mj!!!
My friend from Chicago told me once
throwing that in there doesnt make the point more valid lol. If I tell you that my friend from LA says that Kobe is a fake, whiny little bitch with no real leadership skills....does that make the point any more valid then when the rest of the world says it? ;)
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Consider who Im arguing with tho man. Its NIK...cmon. Its like me telling a religious nut to prove theres a God and having him turn around and saying "yes there is, because God is the best!". Similar situation lol
and yet you still give it your all
you and NIK both lose
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Consider who Im arguing with tho man. Its NIK...cmon. Its like me telling a religious nut to prove theres a God and having him turn around and saying "yes there is, because God is the best!". Similar situation lol
and yet you still give it your all
you and NIK both lose
naw, cus my goal isnt to make him change his mind. I just get a kick out of making illogical people look ridiculous. Again, to compare it to religious freaks...i get a kick out of trying to get them to prove something that cant be proven and watch them argue against my facts with their opinions. Funny shit.
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mj doesnt have incredible clutch stats according to 82games...LOL. lebron>mj!!!
My friend from Chicago told me once
throwing that in there doesnt make the point more valid lol. If I tell you that my friend from LA says that Kobe is a fake, whiny little bitch with no real leadership skills....does that make the point any more valid then when the rest of the world says it? ;)
lmao, nice reponse. :P
i dont think you can have a "the clutch player".
i mean you can say one comes bigger at the end of games more than another guy, but to pick one doesnt say much.
like lets say Shaq miraculously throws up 3 game winning full court shots before his career is over (in big games too).
are you going to say that Shaq is more clutch than a Reggie Miller or MJ because of some lucky chucks?
more times than not, shots at the buzzer are chucks 70% of the time & all just luck (in most cases).
i think this a pointless argument which apprently already has turned into a usual "Kobe>>>LeBron", "LeBron>>>Kobe" & "Kobe>>>MJ".
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daygo is arguin against Kobe's clutchness...he loses.
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mj doesnt have incredible clutch stats according to 82games...LOL. lebron>mj!!!
My friend from Chicago told me once
throwing that in there doesnt make the point more valid lol. If I tell you that my friend from LA says that Kobe is a fake, whiny little bitch with no real leadership skills....does that make the point any more valid then when the rest of the world says it? ;)
lmao, nice reponse. :P
i dont think you can have a "the clutch player".
i mean you can say one comes bigger at the end of games more than another guy, but to pick one doesnt say much.
like lets say Shaq miraculously throws up 3 game winning full court shots before his career is over (in big games too).
are you going to say that Shaq is more clutch than a Reggie Miller or MJ because of some lucky chucks?
more times than not, shots at the buzzer are chucks 70% of the time & all just luck (in most cases).
i think this a pointless argument which apprently already has turned into a usual "Kobe>>>LeBron", "LeBron>>>Kobe" & "Kobe>>>MJ".
i nominate this reply as dumbest post of the year for '09
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MJ, Kobe and Reggie are/were clearly the best clutch players from the 90es to now... of course every clutch player is going to miss some , even a lot but that's because they have that reputation and will be doubled or tripled team on the last shot ... Kobe efficiency on the last shot (I'm not talking about the last 4-5 min of the game) has dropped a lot after 04 it's true but why ?
- Kobe has made a lot of incredible game winners with tough defense on him but it was still 1 on 1 situation ... because Shaq (despite sucking badly at FT shooting) Horry , Fox , Fish were considered dangerous to decent threats at making a game winner therefore it opened the floor for him and allowed him to take a tough but still not impossible for his standards ... nowadays besides Fish , nobody else from our team has shown the ability to make a game winner -- they ain't considered as dangerous = opponents will leave them opened to double or tripled team Kobe...
- There is no play called or execution from us for some years ... this is at this moment I wonder how Phil can do a such bad job at coaching in the clutch ... it's just give the ball to Kobe and we will see what happens :-X how many balls not inbounded correctly , desperate Kobe shots from 30 feet over 3 defenders have we seen for 4-5 years ... it's just pathetic ...
- Kobe has his part of responsability , he often takes bad shots too quick instead of working off the ball , hitting his better spots ... I'd like to see Kobe creating off the dribble for Fish , more pick n rolls with Pau over this Kobe iso again and again
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mj doesnt have incredible clutch stats according to 82games...LOL. lebron>mj!!!
My friend from Chicago told me once
throwing that in there doesnt make the point more valid lol. If I tell you that my friend from LA says that Kobe is a fake, whiny little bitch with no real leadership skills....does that make the point any more valid then when the rest of the world says it? ;)
lmao, nice reponse. :P
i dont think you can have a "the clutch player".
i mean you can say one comes bigger at the end of games more than another guy, but to pick one doesnt say much.
like lets say Shaq miraculously throws up 3 game winning full court shots before his career is over (in big games too).
are you going to say that Shaq is more clutch than a Reggie Miller or MJ because of some lucky chucks?
more times than not, shots at the buzzer are chucks 70% of the time & all just luck (in most cases).
i think this a pointless argument which apprently already has turned into a usual "Kobe>>>LeBron", "LeBron>>>Kobe" & "Kobe>>>MJ".
i nominate this reply as dumbest post of the year for '09
if theres a category for it & you claim i am a shoe in, im down. 8)
but you also claim a lot of things that are out of this world, so i wont keep my hopes up. :D
MJ>Reggie>Kobe (clutchness), even if i believe you cant distinguish.
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mj doesnt have incredible clutch stats according to 82games...LOL. lebron>mj!!!
My friend from Chicago told me once
throwing that in there doesnt make the point more valid lol. If I tell you that my friend from LA says that Kobe is a fake, whiny little bitch with no real leadership skills....does that make the point any more valid then when the rest of the world says it? ;)
here was the main point, even though MJ, or Kobe wasn't 100% in clutch, they want the ball at the end, they want that last shot to win. So with that in mind, if they get it or not, people remember them taking that last shot. That was my main point, and I was using my boy 'cause he saw MJ play every game, just like I never missed a Laker game when I'm in Cali, and I catch every national Laker game well I'm in MN, this guy saw every Bulls game in the 90's when he was in the Chi.
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mj doesnt have incredible clutch stats according to 82games...LOL. lebron>mj!!!
My friend from Chicago told me once
throwing that in there doesnt make the point more valid lol. If I tell you that my friend from LA says that Kobe is a fake, whiny little bitch with no real leadership skills....does that make the point any more valid then when the rest of the world says it? ;)
here was the main point, even though MJ, or Kobe wasn't 100% in clutch, they want the ball at the end, they want that last shot to win. So with that in mind, if they get it or not, people remember them taking that last shot. That was my main point, and I was using my boy 'cause he saw MJ play every game, just like I never missed a Laker game when I'm in Cali, and I catch every national Laker game well I'm in MN, this guy saw every Bulls game in the 90's when he was in the Chi.
i get u man. but my point is that, wanting to take the last shot doesnt make you clutch. Performing under pressure, or better yet, performing better under pressure. Thats clutch. John Stockton wasnt a big scorer, so if down the stretch of a close game in the playoffs, he scored no points, but had 5 assists in the last 4 minutes and one that lead to the game winning shot....wouldnt that be a clutch performance? If Bruce Bowen was stickin Ray Allen in the finals, and Ray Allen had been killing the Spurs all game....but in a close 4th quarter, Bruce Bowen completely shut out Ray Allen for the final 10 minutes of the game...wouldnt that be a clutch performance? Being clutch is more about what YOU do to make your team win in a tight situation. Taking the last shot no matter what, even when a better shot is available for your team to win...isnt clutch. And no Scittles, i never said Kobe wasnt clutch. I said there are a ton of different ways to measure how clutch someone is, and you can DEFINETELY argue over who is the MOST clutch player in the league. And guess what, no one would be right.