West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Sports & Entertainment => Topic started by: Chamillitary Click on December 01, 2009, 01:48:24 PM
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i always thought they were.
i mean Phil Jackson for example; won 10 rings with Michael Jordan (with a great cast) & Kobe Bryant (probably with a greater cast).
whose the two people always debated for GOAT? yeah, those two.
Doc Rivers coached during the worst Celtics season in history, then won a ring with three Hall of Famers; you going to tell me that he's a "good coach" or a "factor"?
you really think either one of these two would get the Nets a win?
Football coaches? yeah, some of them are better in certain areas of the game & have different principals; but the "best ones" just happen to have the best players lol.
you think Bill Belichick or Sean Payton would win a Super Bowl in St. Louis or Oakland this year?
Baseball coaches seem to take a lot of heat game in & game out; but again, the coaches with the best players win.
i know, i was talking about the worst teams in the league; but i don't think any coach i named with just presence alone would get any average team over the hump.
Payton on the Jets or Packers or Phil on the Bucks or in Utah.
i just feel they don't play that role on any team that truly determines games every week; it's like 95% talent on the field or court to me.
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Coaches are defiantly overrated. In pro sports, unlike college or minor leagues, players are already developed (at least they should be). All some coaches can do is do the best with the talent he's got. The main job off coaching is to put your team one step further and maintain work ethic.
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Coaches are defiantly overrated. In pro sports, unlike college or minor leagues, players are already developed (at least they should be). All some coaches can do is do the best with the talent he's got. The main job off coaching is to put your team one step further and maintain work ethic.
i agree, College or Minor League coaches should be more appreciated because they don't always get the players they want & they don't have the most elite players in the world either.
how hard can it be for Doc Rivers to say, alright; Rondo, Allen, Pierce, KG & Perkins; go out there & do your thang. :P
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To an extent there's always gonna be an argument for Jackson. He's obviously a great coach cause his philosophies about playing the game have always stuck with his players and he's gotten respect from some of the tougher personalities in the game. But, I think most coaches would give anything to be able to coach players like MJ, Kobe, Pippen, Shaq, etc along with the great supporting casts they always played with.
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Basketball is one thing, but football is another. The coaching staff of a football team can make a terrible team a great team over night, and it has to do with strategy more so than fire. A new coach can fire up a team mid-season like what happened to the Niners last year, but a new coaching system can change an organization. That's a fact. Parcells went to a 1-15 Miami, brought in his guys and over night they were 11-5 and in the playoffs. The same team with a new strategy. Pennington went from a liability on the Jets to a stud in Miami. Look at Kyle Orton in Denver, or the reverse effect, Cutler in Chicago.
Would Bellicheck turn around St. Louis mid season? No, but if he left NE for next season and brought Crennel and Wies with him they'd be in the playoffs next year (the division is a factor in that too).
Why do you think an NFL football team has a coaching bigger than most NBA and NHL teams? It is that important.
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Basketball is one thing, but football is another. The coaching staff of a football team can make a terrible team a great team over night, and it has to do with strategy more so than fire. A new coach can fire up a team mid-season like what happened to the Niners last year, but a new coaching system can change an organization. That's a fact. Parcells went to a 1-15 Miami, brought in his guys and over night they were 11-5 and in the playoffs. The same team with a new strategy. Pennington went from a liability on the Jets to a stud in Miami. Look at Kyle Orton in Denver, or the reverse effect, Cutler in Chicago.
Would Bellicheck turn around St. Louis mid season? No, but if he left NE for next season and brought Crennel and Wies with him they'd be in the playoffs next year (the division is a factor in that too).
Why do you think an NFL football team has a coaching bigger than most NBA and NHL teams? It is that important.
Because NFL teams have a lot more players (playing very different positions).
But you're right, football is more vulnerable to good and bad coaching then basketball or baseball. But if you have the Patriots and Browns switch coaches, and the results aren't too far off in the regular season.
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football is more vulnerable to good and bad coaching then basketball or baseball.
Pretty much how I feel.
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Basketball is one thing, but football is another. The coaching staff of a football team can make a terrible team a great team over night, and it has to do with strategy more so than fire. A new coach can fire up a team mid-season like what happened to the Niners last year, but a new coaching system can change an organization. That's a fact. Parcells went to a 1-15 Miami, brought in his guys and over night they were 11-5 and in the playoffs. The same team with a new strategy. Pennington went from a liability on the Jets to a stud in Miami. Look at Kyle Orton in Denver, or the reverse effect, Cutler in Chicago.
Would Bellicheck turn around St. Louis mid season? No, but if he left NE for next season and brought Crennel and Wies with him they'd be in the playoffs next year (the division is a factor in that too).
Why do you think an NFL football team has a coaching bigger than most NBA and NHL teams? It is that important.
Because NFL teams have a lot more players (playing very different positions).
But you're right, football is more vulnerable to good and bad coaching then basketball or baseball. But if you have the Patriots and Browns switch coaches, and the results aren't too far off in the regular season.
Switching just the head coach maybe won't do much, but his whole staff will. Just give me a logical reason for the turn around success of the Dolphins and I'll drop it. Some coaches play simple schemes and rely on great players to make plays or other teams to mess up, like Dungy's Tampa two, but other coaches take pretty much the same teams and turn the scheme on it's head. Look at the Saints Defense last year and this year, or the Jets defense.
There isn't a proportional difference between players in coaches in the NBA and NFL. There are more coaches per player, by a lot.
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I'll catch hate for it but Jeff Fisher is a good example of a great coach in the NFL. He's never really had ALL the talent. Either lots of under rated players or players that only he and his coaching stuff could get the most out of. There is lots of examples of this. Kearse, Gage, Chris Brown, Antawn Odom (up until this year), Laboy, Vanden Bosch, Haynesworth, etc.
The team is very cheap and relies on finding diamond in the rough players/the draft to replace expensive free agents walking away yet coach Fisher always has us in the mix.
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Basketball is one thing, but football is another. The coaching staff of a football team can make a terrible team a great team over night, and it has to do with strategy more so than fire. A new coach can fire up a team mid-season like what happened to the Niners last year, but a new coaching system can change an organization. That's a fact. Parcells went to a 1-15 Miami, brought in his guys and over night they were 11-5 and in the playoffs. The same team with a new strategy. Pennington went from a liability on the Jets to a stud in Miami. Look at Kyle Orton in Denver, or the reverse effect, Cutler in Chicago.
Would Bellicheck turn around St. Louis mid season? No, but if he left NE for next season and brought Crennel and Wies with him they'd be in the playoffs next year (the division is a factor in that too).
Why do you think an NFL football team has a coaching bigger than most NBA and NHL teams? It is that important.
Because NFL teams have a lot more players (playing very different positions).
But you're right, football is more vulnerable to good and bad coaching then basketball or baseball. But if you have the Patriots and Browns switch coaches, and the results aren't too far off in the regular season.
Switching just the head coach maybe won't do much, but his whole staff will. Just give me a logical reason for the turn around success of the Dolphins and I'll drop it. Some coaches play simple schemes and rely on great players to make plays or other teams to mess up, like Dungy's Tampa two, but other coaches take pretty much the same teams and turn the scheme on it's head. Look at the Saints Defense last year and this year, or the Jets defense.
There isn't a proportional difference between players in coaches in the NBA and NFL. There are more coaches per player, by a lot.
yeah, but that's what you hear.
Jeff Fisher is such a phenomial coach or a team should make a run for Bill Cowher.
it's the coach who gets all the glory & i don't think he deserves all the credit he gets; that goes for all the heat he gets too.
I'll catch hate for it but Jeff Fisher is a good example of a great coach in the NFL. He's never really had ALL the talent. Either lots of under rated players or players that only he and his coaching stuff could get the most out of. There is lots of examples of this. Kearse, Gage, Chris Brown, Antawn Odom (up until this year), Laboy, Vanden Bosch, Haynesworth, etc.
The team is very cheap and relies on finding diamond in the rough players/the draft to replace expensive free agents walking away yet coach Fisher always has us in the mix.
"diamonds in the rough" are good players though, that's talent; not to mention the Pro-Bowl worthy Vince Young lol.
Steve McNair (RIP) was an MVP & Eddie George was a fucking monster.
sure, Jeff Fisher is a better coach than other people in the league; but he wouldn't make a bad team good; the perfect coach created by God wouldn't make an average team a Super Bowl contender.
agreed Football has the most need for a coach, but without talent you got nothing.
To an extent there's always gonna be an argument for Jackson. He's obviously a great coach cause his philosophies about playing the game have always stuck with his players and he's gotten respect from some of the tougher personalities in the game. But, I think most coaches would give anything to be able to coach players like MJ, Kobe, Pippen, Shaq, etc along with the great supporting casts they always played with.
i'm not trying to take anything away from Phil Jackson; i would say he is the best coach in the NBA, but i don't even think he would need all 10 rings to show that.
it's just, he isn't the reason they won & if a guy like Doc can win in Boston, anybody could of won last year with the Lakers squad.
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^Fisher turned a horrible 0-6 team (yes they looked good at times but the final 3 losses were despicable) into a good one. And don't tell me it was just CJ lol. The team was averaging like 138 rush yards at 0-6. Fisher used that bye week to tighten up a lot of things.
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i always thought they were.
i mean Phil Jackson for example; won 10 rings with Michael Jordan (with a great cast) & Kobe Bryant (probably with a greater cast).
whose the two people always debated for GOAT? yeah, those two.
Doc Rivers coached during the worst Celtics season in history, then won a ring with three Hall of Famers; you going to tell me that he's a "good coach" or a "factor"?
you really think either one of these two would get the Nets a win?
Football coaches? yeah, some of them are better in certain areas of the game & have different principals; but the "best ones" just happen to have the best players lol.
you think Bill Belichick or Sean Payton would win a Super Bowl in St. Louis or Oakland this year?
Baseball coaches seem to take a lot of heat game in & game out; but again, the coaches with the best players win.
i know, i was talking about the worst teams in the league; but i don't think any coach i named with just presence alone would get any average team over the hump.
Payton on the Jets or Packers or Phil on the Bucks or in Utah.
i just feel they don't play that role on any team that truly determines games every week; it's like 95% talent on the field or court to me.
Phil Jackson got this last one (championship) by building a squad though. The Gasol trade put them over the top, but they drafted alot of young talent and built that team up after the Shaq trade.
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^Fisher turned a horrible 0-6 team (yes they looked good at times but the final 3 losses were despicable) into a good one. And don't tell me it was just CJ lol. The team was averaging like 138 rush yards at 0-6. Fisher used that bye week to tighten up a lot of things.
pretty sure you're the one who said around the 0-4 mark, "this record doesn't reflect how we really are".
you lost some games that could of gone either way (Steelers, Jets & Houston) & then lost to the Pats & Colts.
you very well could of been 3-3 & nobody would of said anything.
the only difference was Vince Young & you seem to be high on your horse that he is the reason this teams gone in the other direction.
i'll give Fisher the change of QB, but honestly, any coach would of made the same change; not trying to take away from Jeff, but it was the obvious move.
regardless of this going somewhere else lol, the point is, Jeff Fisher is a great coach; but i don't think putting him in Buffalo would put that team over the hump without more talent.
i always thought they were.
i mean Phil Jackson for example; won 10 rings with Michael Jordan (with a great cast) & Kobe Bryant (probably with a greater cast).
whose the two people always debated for GOAT? yeah, those two.
Doc Rivers coached during the worst Celtics season in history, then won a ring with three Hall of Famers; you going to tell me that he's a "good coach" or a "factor"?
you really think either one of these two would get the Nets a win?
Football coaches? yeah, some of them are better in certain areas of the game & have different principals; but the "best ones" just happen to have the best players lol.
you think Bill Belichick or Sean Payton would win a Super Bowl in St. Louis or Oakland this year?
Baseball coaches seem to take a lot of heat game in & game out; but again, the coaches with the best players win.
i know, i was talking about the worst teams in the league; but i don't think any coach i named with just presence alone would get any average team over the hump.
Payton on the Jets or Packers or Phil on the Bucks or in Utah.
i just feel they don't play that role on any team that truly determines games every week; it's like 95% talent on the field or court to me.
Phil Jackson got this last one (championship) by building a squad though. The Gasol trade put them over the top, but they drafted alot of young talent and built that team up after the Shaq trade.
i think they could of beaten the Magic without Gasol anyway; but they drafted talent.
Bynum was said to be something special when he developed & Ariza came up big.
it was talent, Kobe knows the team well enough where i think if he was a player/coach, they could of found themselves in the Finals lol.
but again, yeah Phil is an a great coach, but i don't feel his contributions game in, game out are the reason they won; maybe building the team, but not in-game.
i know coaching goes beyond just the in-game, but i'm more or less talking about in-game coaching.
my point being talent >>>*a hundred more* >>> coaching.
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^Fisher turned a horrible 0-6 team (yes they looked good at times but the final 3 losses were despicable) into a good one. And don't tell me it was just CJ lol. The team was averaging like 138 rush yards at 0-6. Fisher used that bye week to tighten up a lot of things.
pretty sure you're the one who said around the 0-4 mark, "this record doesn't reflect how we really are".
you lost some games that could of gone either way (Steelers, Jets & Houston) & then lost to the Pats & Colts.
you very well could of been 3-3 & nobody would of said anything.
the only difference was Vince Young & you seem to be high on your horse that he is the reason this teams gone in the other direction.
i'll give Fisher the change of QB, but honestly, any coach would of made the same change; not trying to take away from Jeff, but it was the obvious move.
regardless of this going somewhere else lol, the point is, Jeff Fisher is a great coach; but i don't think putting him in Buffalo would put that team over the hump without more talent.
i always thought they were.
i mean Phil Jackson for example; won 10 rings with Michael Jordan (with a great cast) & Kobe Bryant (probably with a greater cast).
whose the two people always debated for GOAT? yeah, those two.
Doc Rivers coached during the worst Celtics season in history, then won a ring with three Hall of Famers; you going to tell me that he's a "good coach" or a "factor"?
you really think either one of these two would get the Nets a win?
Football coaches? yeah, some of them are better in certain areas of the game & have different principals; but the "best ones" just happen to have the best players lol.
you think Bill Belichick or Sean Payton would win a Super Bowl in St. Louis or Oakland this year?
Baseball coaches seem to take a lot of heat game in & game out; but again, the coaches with the best players win.
i know, i was talking about the worst teams in the league; but i don't think any coach i named with just presence alone would get any average team over the hump.
Payton on the Jets or Packers or Phil on the Bucks or in Utah.
i just feel they don't play that role on any team that truly determines games every week; it's like 95% talent on the field or court to me.
Phil Jackson got this last one (championship) by building a squad though. The Gasol trade put them over the top, but they drafted alot of young talent and built that team up after the Shaq trade.
i think they could of beaten the Magic without Gasol anyway; but they drafted talent.
Bynum was said to be something special when he developed & Ariza came up big.
it was talent, Kobe knows the team well enough where i think if he was a player/coach, they could of found themselves in the Finals lol.
but again, yeah Phil is an a great coach, but i don't feel his contributions game in, game out are the reason they won; maybe building the team, but not in-game.
i know coaching goes beyond just the in-game, but i'm more or less talking about in-game coaching.
my point being talent >>>*a hundred more* >>> coaching.
Well if you are talking in game coaching then for sure Phil is not overrated. MJ and Kobe and Shaq were all in the same boat before Phil Jackson became their coach. Annual trips to the playoffs, 0 rings period. Phil's teams all after he coached them became better executing teams offensively and defensively. Many call Phil's tactics at coaching "not the norm" but if the players respond well to it and it works into a winning and championship formula, is that also not coaching as well? Phil also surrounded himself around a great assistant coaching staff as well.
All I know is the Bulls and Lakers were not winning championships with Doug Collins and Dell Harris.
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^i beg to differ, but you do raise a good point.
something had to have changed on the rosters or something though, no? maybe just experience with playing each other.
i know Phil in Portland isn't giving them a ring; maybe in 5 years, when they are all Super-Stars lol.
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^i beg to differ, but you do raise a good point.
something had to have changed on the rosters or something though, no? maybe just experience with playing each other.
i know Phil in Portland isn't giving them a ring; maybe in 5 years, when they are all Super-Stars lol.
Of course changes happened to the roster. Anytime you have new coaches that is bound to happen. But Phil Jackson is one of the greatest coaches of all time in getting players to buy into the idea of knowing and playing your role. Parcells has that quality, Pat Riley has that quality, Bellichek also. LA's roster changed as far as role players but players ultimately have to buy into the formula of coaching or it is not going to work.
Especially these days with the me first mentality of alot of players. As far as Portland is concerned, I don't know how long it would take Phil to get them to the Finals, but I bet they would be a much more disciplined, focused and improved team. And that also wins you games and championships.
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^i beg to differ, but you do raise a good point.
something had to have changed on the rosters or something though, no? maybe just experience with playing each other.
i know Phil in Portland isn't giving them a ring; maybe in 5 years, when they are all Super-Stars lol.
Of course changes happened to the roster. Anytime you have new coaches that is bound to happen. But Phil Jackson is one of the greatest coaches of all time in getting players to buy into the idea of knowing and playing your role. Parcells has that quality, Pat Riley has that quality, Bellichek also. LA's roster changed as far as role players but players ultimately have to buy into the formula of coaching or it is not going to work.
Especially these days with the me first mentality of alot of players. As far as Portland is concerned, I don't know how long it would take Phil to get them to the Finals, but I bet they would be a much more disciplined, focused and improved team. And that also wins you games and championships.
alright, so Phil is exempt from the conversation. :P
but it applies to everybody else. :D
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There is no such team as bad players in the NFL. If you make the NFL you're an amazing player, so the whole coaching bad players thing is bullshit. The difference is between good players and great players, and coaches can make the difference in Football. Josh McDaniels as far as I'm concerned is more responsible for the successes of both Orton and Cassel and nothing will change my mind on that. Some players are so special it doesn't matter who the coaches are, but if anyone think that the Giants beat the Pats with out Spagnuolo's tricks they're kidding themselves, and no one player on that defense is more important than the DC.
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There is no such team as bad players in the NFL. If you make the NFL you're an amazing player, so the whole coaching bad players thing is bullshit. The difference is between good players and great players, and coaches can make the difference in Football. Josh McDaniels as far as I'm concerned is more responsible for the successes of both Orton and Cassel and nothing will change my mind on that. Some players are so special it doesn't matter who the coaches are, but if anyone think that the Giants beat the Pats with out Spagnuolo's tricks they're kidding themselves, and no one player on that defense is more important than the DC.
obviously better than you & me, but compared to the best players or even average players, they aren't on that level.
Romo, Austin & Witten are more talented than Sanchez, Braylon & Jericho & Wade Phillips has a reputation for being an awful coach, who is on the hot seat & Rex Ryan has was labeled a defensive genius lol.
but the Cowboys will remain the better team for the rest of the season.
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pretty sure you're the one who said around the 0-4 mark, "this record doesn't reflect how we really are".
you lost some games that could of gone either way (Steelers, Jets & Houston) & then lost to the Pats & Colts.
you very well could of been 3-3 & nobody would of said anything.
the only difference was Vince Young & you seem to be high on your horse that he is the reason this teams gone in the other direction.
i'll give Fisher the change of QB, but honestly, any coach would of made the same change; not trying to take away from Jeff, but it was the obvious move.
regardless of this going somewhere else lol, the point is, Jeff Fisher is a great coach; but i don't think putting him in Buffalo would put that team over the hump without more talent.
No, that was after 0-3. But the losses to the Jags, Colts & Pats were horrible. I think Young is a big reason the team has gone in the other direction and the offensive numbers clearly proves my point. I'm not even referring to the QB switch when I say Fisher is a great coach. I mean in general. Look at the list I provided of players that were either horrible before they came to us (Gage, Vanden Bosch, etc). or players that were great with us and left to do shit all (Brown, Kearse, Odom, etc.)
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There is no such team as bad players in the NFL. If you make the NFL you're an amazing player, so the whole coaching bad players thing is bullshit. The difference is between good players and great players, and coaches can make the difference in Football. Josh McDaniels as far as I'm concerned is more responsible for the successes of both Orton and Cassel and nothing will change my mind on that. Some players are so special it doesn't matter who the coaches are, but if anyone think that the Giants beat the Pats with out Spagnuolo's tricks they're kidding themselves, and no one player on that defense is more important than the DC.
obviously better than you & me, but compared to the best players or even average players, they aren't on that level.
Romo, Austin & Witten are more talented than Sanchez, Braylon & Jericho & Wade Phillips has a reputation for being an awful coach, who is on the hot seat & Rex Ryan has was labeled a defensive genius lol.
but the Cowboys will remain the better team for the rest of the season.
Rex Ryan is a defensive genius. The Jets defense isn't the problem. Wade Phillips is also a defensive genius for the record. You are using defensive coaches to justify offenses and comparing rookies to veterans. Make the argument fair. Use QBs, RBs, TEs, and WRs that are more comparable with each other. Of course by numbers alone the Jets have scored 230 points and allowed 195, and the Cowboys have scored 250 points and allowed 182. Hardly night and day.
The argument also goes further than single seasons. Joe Montana spent 8 years or so with Walsh. Every year he got better and the team got better. If Montana had been signed by the Bucs and remained there we'd be talking about him like we talk about Steve Spurrier.
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Its quite obvious the jets defense is not the problem.The jets defense has been top five.But when your qb is throwing multiple picks a game,their isnt much they can do.
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Its quite obvious the jets defense is not the problem.The jets defense has been top five.But when your qb is throwing multiple picks a game,their isnt much they can do.
ya 17 INT is not a good look :-X
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Not that I have a problem with sanchez,hes shown signs of brilliance this season.Im fully confident hes going to flourish into a great qb.But hes a rookie a qb none the less and hes going to make a lot of mistakes.Problem is the qb is such a magnified position that any mistakes made are huge.
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Not that I have a problem with sanchez,hes shown signs of brilliance this season.Im fully confident hes going to flourish into a great qb.But hes a rookie a qb none the less and hes going to make a lot of mistakes.Problem is the qb is such a magnified position that any mistakes made are huge.
agreed i think he'll become good
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the point is, the general opinion is that Rex Ryan is great mind & coach & Wade Phillips is nothing special.
yet, Wade has all the talent in the world & has a successful team as a result.
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the point is, the general opinion is that Rex Ryan is great mind & coach & Wade Phillips is nothing special.
yet, Wade has all the talent in the world & has a successful team as a result.
Take it from a Bills fan, Wade Phillips is a defensive specialist. What he did with those Bills teams was remarkable. He just wan't a good head coach and knew nothing about running an offense. He knew how to stop an offense though. You don't get to be Buddy Ryan's DC if you're nothing special. HE did a lot on teams like New Orleans with not that much outstanding talent. And had two or three very sucessful defensive years in Denver. His first year as DC they were the #1 D in the league. I hate him for what he did with benching Flutie but with out his defense we never would have been in a position to bench Flutie to begin with.