West Coast Connection Forum
DUBCC - Tha Connection => West Coast Classics => Topic started by: hrsmn_london on March 25, 2011, 06:39:12 AM
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How did Interscope put out this record with no Death Row involvement?
I also cannot understand how Makaveli CD has sold only 4 million albums when All Eyes has sold 9x million.
Was the album title too confusing or was it that Suge was in jail and unable to promote the CD properly?
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I always wondered that too.
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Death Row may have been involved, just because their logo isn't on it doesn't mean they aren't involved. Just a thought.
Also double album sales are counted as 2 discs, so 9million is 4.5 million people that bought it.
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How did Interscope put out this record with no Death Row involvement?
I also cannot understand how Makaveli CD has sold only 4 million albums when All Eyes has sold 9x million.
Was the album title too confusing or was it that Suge was in jail and unable to promote the CD properly?
I think Afeni and DR had issues at the time, and a compromise was made that the DR logo wouldn't appear on the cd. I don't have the credits in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it has "Suge Publishing" in there. Death Row was involved because it was material recorded while Pac was alive on the label.
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BTW Death Row stopped paying for soundscan to keep track of albujm sales
AEOM was certified 9x platinum back in the late 1990s lol
its gotat be diamond by now
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Yes, there was some type of conflict over "Still I Rise". I don't know the details but Death Row still got points on the album and they also used to include it as part of their discography back when they had the old website.
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Yes, there was some type of conflict over "Still I Rise". I don't know the details but Death Row still got points on the album and they also used to include it as part of their discography back when they had the old website.
Whatever dispute they had was cleared up by the time UTEOT and Better Days dropped
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Yes, there was some type of conflict over "Still I Rise". I don't know the details but Death Row still got points on the album and they also used to include it as part of their discography back when they had the old website.
also true
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Now that I think of it, I think I remember someone saying Amaru and Death Row had a dispute with Interscope because at the time, Interscope was expecting the other two to handle the lion's share of promotion in terms of fianances. I can't remember where I heard that but I think it was somebody with either Amaru or Death Row. Might have been Afeni.
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i wonder how Don't Stop wound up on DPG's 2002
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There was some dispute between Death Row and Amaru regarding the Still I Rise album but, was later settled. I do remember that some type of settlement was made regarding 2Pac's Death Row recordings. I think someone from the Amaru team discussed this on the old 2Pac legacy site stating that Better Dayz was the last Amaru and Death Row release together of 2Pac material and from that point on it was gonna all Amaru. I think it was like a 4 album deal that Amaru had with Death Row.
The 4 albums:
2Pac's Greatest Hits (1998)
Still I Rise (1999)
Until The End Of Times (2001)
Better Dayz (2002)
That is why besides The Best Of 2Pac releases, there has been no Death Row and no involvement from them on any of those releases since Better Dayz. So, Still I Rise is still considered a Death Row album because they were involved with the album being made. That's why Suge's publishing was in the credits, plus Daz produced a cut on there. He was on Death Row at that time. The only thing that came out from Death Row since Better Dayz was remixed albums, compilations, and the live albums. All of that stuff, they got Afeni's approval on it. Notice no new material (like an album that contains previously unreleased songs) came from Death Row besides those things I've just mentioned. I think the only albums that Death Row has total rights to is All Eyez On Me and The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory by Makaveli, that's it.
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The Death Row situation with Pac's music is one of those similiar publishing deals that they have with Dre. They own the songs but they need artist approval to have them released. Even now with new ownership, WideAwake can still make a Tupac album but there's only certain stuff they can touch. I don't know how many people remember this but before they did "Better Dayz" and "Until The End Of Time", Death Row's website was advertising a four-disc collection called The Vault that would have had "Untouchable" with Crooked I as the first single. Amaru ended up blocking it. They aren't letting anybody do anything with Tupac's name and likeness. Death Row got through because Pac had a deal with Suge. I think when the "Greatest Hits" project came out, they had a very good working relationship but it seemed to sour around the time that the double albums were being put together. Even with Death Row logos on them, Suge seemed like he wasn't a fan of some of the creative directions those projects went.
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The Death Row situation with Pac's music is one of those similiar publishing deals that they have with Dre. They own the songs but they need artist approval to have them released. Even now with new ownership, WideAwake can still make a Tupac album but there's only certain stuff they can touch. I don't know how many people remember this but before they did "Better Dayz" and "Until The End Of Time", Death Row's website was advertising a four-disc collection called The Vault that would have had "Untouchable" with Crooked I as the first single. Amaru ended up blocking it. They aren't letting anybody do anything with Tupac's name and likeness. Death Row got through because Pac had a deal with Suge. I think when the "Greatest Hits" project came out, they had a very good working relationship but it seemed to sour around the time that the double albums were being put together. Even with Death Row logos on them, Suge seemed like he wasn't a fan of some of the creative directions those projects went.
I am sorry, but for people who want facts, most of what you said is pure speculation.
In fact, instead of War games the unheard that Koch was buying was going to be a much more positive Pac song and would have been able to be released just fine.
Amaru doesn't want to alter the image of Thug Angel so no diss songs.
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The Death Row situation with Pac's music is one of those similiar publishing deals that they have with Dre. They own the songs but they need artist approval to have them released. Even now with new ownership, WideAwake can still make a Tupac album but there's only certain stuff they can touch. I don't know how many people remember this but before they did "Better Dayz" and "Until The End Of Time", Death Row's website was advertising a four-disc collection called The Vault that would have had "Untouchable" with Crooked I as the first single. Amaru ended up blocking it. They aren't letting anybody do anything with Tupac's name and likeness. Death Row got through because Pac had a deal with Suge. I think when the "Greatest Hits" project came out, they had a very good working relationship but it seemed to sour around the time that the double albums were being put together. Even with Death Row logos on them, Suge seemed like he wasn't a fan of some of the creative directions those projects went.
Right! Notice during that time, Death Row were able to use unreleased recordings of 2Pac's for their own projects. 2Pac was still on their roster. Yep, Until The End Of Time and Better Dayz was gonna be released originally together as a 4 disc box-set. It was on the old Death Row site around 2000. I still have the info that was originally posted from there. They had like 2 other titles for that project also, one being "The Safe". Part of the reason that 4-disc set was broken to 2 double albums was that it was too much material for one release and they was sure as far as promoting it. "Untouchable" with Crooked I, I remember that version being considered for that project also. It was also gonna be on his album for Death Row (that would later go in the vault) called "Untouchable" as well. That version with Crooked remains in the vault. That's just like "Mama's Just A Lil' Girl" was considered for Until The End Of Time but, was later released on Better Dayz
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Better Dayz was the last Amaru and Death Row release together of 2Pac material and from that point on it was gonna all Amaru
and we know the outcome......FAILED
OMG how poor are the releases amaru dropped on its own, LTTG and Pac's Life are a disgrace to pac's legacy. it would've been better to release nothing instaed of this worthless remixes
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pacs life was one of the worse albums. SO FUCKING HORRIBLE!
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Hey, I agree with u both! Those albums were terrible. I think if those original producers were involved, those albums would have been great. It's sad that all of those great originals along with some amazing remixes are still in the vault. There's some great music in the vault that would blow remixes away.
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How did Interscope put out this record with no Death Row involvement?
I also cannot understand how Makaveli CD has sold only 4 million albums when All Eyes has sold 9x million.
Was the album title too confusing or was it that Suge was in jail and unable to promote the CD properly?
The album did have Death Row involvement, but they didn't have marginal creative control. Those albums have sold more now, those are old figures from 98/99
The album done extremely well despite the lack of full backing from Interscope, but money was put into videos, and the buzz around his death and Death Row's owner at the time made it an easy money maker for Interscope without having to carry out any additional promotion, but money they did have was being held back to an extent to cover likely legal costs that Death Row was about to endure, and was enduring. Releases near that time (DoggFather, Christmas on Death Row) although done well sales-wise were overlooked, lacked in marketing, and by comparison of previous releases, didn't contain that consistency for quality, or numbers.. Some may argue that it was due to no Suge around, but personally I believe it was money issues, and parent companies restricting the use of funds, not allowing artists to carry out their full creative potential, and forcing Death Row to rush out "safe bets" IE: compilations, and 2Pac/2Pac affiliated records, which ultimately led to a lot of the top names Nate, Snoop, Kurupt etc. to leave elsewhere... Proof shows that they didn't exactly leave to big extravagant labels or deals, but simply to places that they could record albums with their ideal budgets in mind, and release albums
Interscope made a lot of money out of Death Row, but they would have had to pay a lot of money back in for legal fee's. I don't blame them. The fans still got albums at the end of the day, even if they weren't all over the radio and TV
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BTW Death Row stopped paying for soundscan to keep track of albujm sales
AEOM was certified 9x platinum back in the late 1990s lol
its gotat be diamond by now
maybe interscope should takeover and get a real update on 2pac slaes
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Again, this comes down to money. Artists via their labels will usually push for this as it helps their marketability of them, or for their own reseme to shop around. They've always just done as little as possible when releasing new 2Pac material to the public. They know he has a hardcore fan base. By releasing a one video, one single, that's all it usually required to ensure a minimum of plantium. Amaru don't care as long as the records out, and want to keep any money for the TASF. They didn't even want to pay the $30,000 to apply for a hollywood star, which around the time of Resurrection, would have been almost certain that he'd be accpeted. He'd just recently had a huge hit with Elton John, had an upcoming movie, with MTV all over it, and a legion of stars willing to support it (50 Cent, Jada Pinket-Smith, Tom Whalley etc) not to mention his iconic status in Hip Hop alone. They missed the value of that. Do you know how many tourits, and visitors walk down those paths every year? It could have been used in videos and further promotional apporaches... Music selling today is about status, and recognition. The majority in charge of his music just want to make 'easy' money, rather than increasing his acknowledgments, and working harder with the possibility of more money
As a fan, it doesn't sit well, but as a business, what would you do?
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I mean personally, I would release a double album containing his recording on Death Row. It would be a mix of original and remix production from those original producers (Johnny J, QD3, Hurt-em-badd, etc.). Oh, no edits and no touching of the mixes after the producers are done! I'll release some singles along with videos. Do some cool promotion for the album. As a business, I'm pretty confident that that album would sell because it'll be going back to the bench mark of All Eyes On Me. I just believe that the fans want that kind of stuff rather than, remixed stuff and collaboration with people the man never knew. That material can be released on singles (as rarities/b-side) or even a digital release but, not on the album. If it's really about money than, common sense would say repeat the format of R U Still Down and Until The End Of Times. I mean, those were his biggest selling albums after his death besides the Greatest Hits? Those albums released from 1997-2003 were successful, after that it went down hill. If it ain't broke don't fix it, that's just my opiniion.
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I mean personally, I would release a double album containing his recording on Death Row. It would be a mix of original and remix production from those original producers (Johnny J, QD3, Hurt-em-badd, etc.). Oh, no edits and no touching of the mixes after the producers are done! I'll release some singles along with videos. Do some cool promotion for the album. As a business, I'm pretty confident that that album would sell because it'll be going back to the bench mark of All Eyes On Me. I just believe that the fans want that kind of stuff rather than, remixed stuff and collaboration with people the man never knew. That material can be released on singles (as rarities/b-side) or even a digital release but, not on the album. If it's really about money than, common sense would say repeat the format of R U Still Down and Until The End Of Times. I mean, those were his biggest selling albums after his death besides the Greatest Hits? Those albums released from 1997-2003 were successful, after that it went down hill. If it ain't broke don't fix it, that's just my opiniion.
But you're talking about repeating things that might not neccesarily be capable of being repeated. Putting out an unaltered double album is not returning to the "bench mark of All Eyez On Me". All Eyez was an original album of new material recorded when Pac was still alive and able to promote the album. It was done in the brief period at Death Row were just about everybody was there and came off the strength of a monster collabo between Pac and Dr. Dre but also featured nearly every Death Row artist and a legit who's who of other West Coast talent. The other posthumous releases you mentioned owe a great bit of that success to the time in which they were released. They were put out before Internet downloading ripped the industry a new asshole and at a time when Pac's core fanbase were still youngsters. I was in high school when "R U Still Down" came out and was not legally old enough to drink when "Until The End Of Time" was released. Putting out an album of original vault material will never reach "All Eyez" because the fact was those records WERE changed before being finished. A lot of the Pac vault stuff was rough material that might have still needed additional production. The business model has just changed. Pac's biggest posthumous singles were songs that were changed to adapt to a popular formula. I can't hate on it. They were good songs and it worked. As a business move, you wouldn't put out multiple videos for a Pac album. The only people pushing for that are hardcore Pac fans who would already have bought the album anyway. Pac's been deceased for going on 15 years now. You just don't have that enitial commercial momentum anymore.
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Changes & Ghetto Gospel were 2 of his biggest hits - of ALL time. Ghetto Gospel was also 2Pacs first UK number 1, and sold loads on the ringtone market in Europe. Those were remixed tracks. As a business, that is a success because it has made them profit
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I mean personally, I would release a double album containing his recording on Death Row. It would be a mix of original and remix production from those original producers (Johnny J, QD3, Hurt-em-badd, etc.). Oh, no edits and no touching of the mixes after the producers are done! I'll release some singles along with videos. Do some cool promotion for the album. As a business, I'm pretty confident that that album would sell because it'll be going back to the bench mark of All Eyes On Me. I just believe that the fans want that kind of stuff rather than, remixed stuff and collaboration with people the man never knew. That material can be released on singles (as rarities/b-side) or even a digital release but, not on the album. If it's really about money than, common sense would say repeat the format of R U Still Down and Until The End Of Times. I mean, those were his biggest selling albums after his death besides the Greatest Hits? Those albums released from 1997-2003 were successful, after that it went down hill. If it ain't broke don't fix it, that's just my opiniion.
But you're talking about repeating things that might not neccesarily be capable of being repeated. Putting out an unaltered double album is not returning to the "bench mark of All Eyez On Me". All Eyez was an original album of new material recorded when Pac was still alive and able to promote the album. It was done in the brief period at Death Row were just about everybody was there and came off the strength of a monster collabo between Pac and Dr. Dre but also featured nearly every Death Row artist and a legit who's who of other West Coast talent. The other posthumous releases you mentioned owe a great bit of that success to the time in which they were released. They were put out before Internet downloading ripped the industry a new asshole and at a time when Pac's core fanbase were still youngsters. I was in high school when "R U Still Down" came out and was not legally old enough to drink when "Until The End Of Time" was released. Putting out an album of original vault material will never reach "All Eyez" because the fact was those records WERE changed before being finished. A lot of the Pac vault stuff was rough material that might have still needed additional production. The business model has just changed. Pac's biggest posthumous singles were songs that were changed to adapt to a popular formula. I can't hate on it. They were good songs and it worked. As a business move, you wouldn't put out multiple videos for a Pac album. The only people pushing for that are hardcore Pac fans who would already have bought the album anyway. Pac's been deceased for going on 15 years now. You just don't have that enitial commercial momentum anymore.
exactly. sms130, your ideas are unfortunately based on fan-dreams without any real sense for how the stupid industry works. I wish it could work like that but sadly it's more along the lines of how Jimmy H. put it
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D-e-f- and Jimmy H., I know what y'all are saying and I totally understand. I know that time has changed and it's more about coming up with that "big smash". The business has changed alot but, while things were in Amaru's favor why did they ruin that because they were trying to keep up with the changes of the industry. There's tunes of great remixes in their vault right that if it was properly promote right, it would sell like crazy because it's great music. I mean, I don't like the fact that the industry is so commercial now more than ever. I respect it but, the mans musical legacy is at risk due to this. I didn't say that I would release just pure originals. I would include them (at least those that were later finished like how "Letter To The President", "Troublesome 96", "Friendz", "Teardrops and Closed Caskets" etc. were later worked on and finished with kept the original format there) along with some remixes. I know Amaru have to have some of that kind of stuff is in the vault. His musical legacy is at risk due to the commercial state of the industry and keeping up with it. As far as the piracy issue, I know that's a deep subject. I think some of that played apart of those 2Pac posthumous albums successful because they release those albums while that material was hot in the streets. It was a wave! They still could have kept that going, that's just my opinion. Now, it's almost 5 years since the last 2Pac release of unreleased material beside The Best Of albums. That's crazy to me, especially when you're sitting on so much great material. Let's remember something: Yes, "Changes" was a big hit as well as "Until The End Of Time" along with "Ghetto Gospel". Those singles helped sell those albums and they were songs that were changed to adapt to a popular formula but, those were just 2 or 3 songs out of the whole album (at least the Until The End Of Time and the Greatest Hits). The popular formula helped sell the album just as well as the remixed and original formula did also. That may did more than the popular formula stuff did in the end. His musical legacy is at risk now, I think.
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I don't think so. His legacy has been established. If his estate never releases another new Tupac album again, he will still remain one of the most important artists of his time and one of the biggest post-death rappers as well. But no matter how much promotion any label puts into a new project, he's not going to come out and knock Lil' Wayne and Eminem over as the artist of this generation. And an important thing to mention in those songs you brought up ("Letter To The President", "Troublesome 96", "Friendz", "Teardrops and Closed Caskets") is that when they were released, they were only like four or five years old at the most. A song from 1995-96 could still pass for current in the late 90's or early part of the millenium. You'll notice that as time went on, the albums used less and less of the original production as a template for how the final songs sounded.
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Piracy is a cop out. It's an excuse from industry management to keep share holders of big corporations idle-faced and to keep them on board.
Before the internet, bootlegging and piracy was just as active as it is now through street stalls, markets, shows, and venues most likely that large numbers of musical fans - the primary buyer would gather to. The internet just allows an easier option to get bootlegs, and more often than not - ones they download to listen to out of curiosity, and probably wouldn't buy anyway.
The majority of people who downloaded 2Pac's album, probably wouldn't have bought it anyway.. They would have downloaded it because they could. I myself have downloaded albums, and mixtapes... For example - Crooked I COB mixtapes. Material I would have never paid for in a million years, so how has my download hurt their pocket?? Or thousands of others who are just like me?
The music industry is stale, and has been for a long time.. lack of unique talent, lack of quality, lack of consistent artists releasing quality albums is the reason for a decline in sales, not piracy... The industry know this, but will never admit it. That's why they continually re-cycle old tracks, and why you'll (especially in Europe - still a high CD buying market) always see compilations titled "classics", or "Anthems" or "greatest hits" etc etc with the same played out songs on their... Here's an example:
http://www.play.com/Music/CD/-/2948/2215/-/18502116/Anthems-Hip-Hop/Product.html?searchtype=genre
New CD just out... I have all of those songs already on CD's.. Some songs I have on a total of 12 CD's (California Love) and another (born and raised in compton) on 6 CD's.. & They blame the internet for lack of sales??? What a crock of shyt
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I agree to some degree that 2Pac legacy is there. At the same time, his sales have went down and part of that was due to these last few poor quality albums. Of course we'll keep buying the classics (All Eyez On Me, The 7 Day Theory, Me Against The World, etc.) until they're out of print along with the new classics (Until The End Of Time, Better Dayz, Still I Rise, R U Still Down, etc.). I don't know about Pac's Life and Loyal To The Game.
Piracy has been the gift and the curse for the music industry. I'm split with my feelings on that subject. There have some artist that didn't let the leak of their album hurt them in sells. Jay-Z is an prime example of that. Those first 4 or 5 posthumous 2Pac albums are also because those leaks started in 1997. They became very popular and they released alot of those songs during the time that those leaks were hot on the streets. It was a wave! So, the timing did play apart in the success also but, the piracy did also. I refuse to encourage piracy. It's taking from the money from the artist but, (in 2Pac's case) I'm thankful for those leaks because we may have never known who was originally on what or heard it. I think if you love music and if you're a fan of an artist, you're gonna get a bootleg and still buy an album and support your favorite artist regardless. If the quality of the music is tight, why not?
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piracy is a weird subject.
it usually affects mostly the "smaller" artists because artists with huge audiences across all genders/colors/ages are less hurt since a big part of that audience isn't as well versed with how to find the music they want for free so they go out and buy it. I think a huge part of this audience is a bit older and mostly female. The popularity of iTunes covers the needs of that audience further since they "might as well grab in on iTunes" without going through the hassle of asking friends or looking themselves for illegal rips.