West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Sports & Entertainment => Topic started by: TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96' on May 24, 2012, 09:07:58 PM
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I was just noticing today watching some old Jordon footage how easy it was for Jordon to get his shots. Basically at any moment of any game Jordon could just pull up and shoot a jumper. Not to mention there was nothing Jordon couldn't do on a basketball court, but his bread and butter was the pull-up jumper. Something about Jordon's strength and body control just made him able to always get jumper after jumper.
Kobe on the other hand will hit a fadeaway three pointer falling out of bounds with a double team on him shooting over 4 hands. He often takes 3's way beyond the arc. The degree of difficulty he has to take to score the amount of points he does is really unbelievable.
This isn't a diss on Kobe it's actually incredible that he can hit the shots that he does. But Jordon was able to do it with a much lower degree of difficulty.
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NIK, they're out of the playoffs. They aren't good. Kobe choked. Log out of the boy's account & shut the fuck up.
Brian hasn't made a sports post in his life outside of the Royals & Chiefs. Now randomly at one in the morning, he's just breaking down degree of shot difficulty. You're one sad dude.
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When Jordan lost his athleticism he took turnaround fadeaways as well. He never forced it as much as Kobe does, hence the significantly better FG%. In Kobe's defense, Jordan never really took 3s like that. But maybe Kobe shouldn't either.. or at least less.
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When Jordan lost his athleticism he took turnaround fadeaways as well. He never forced it as much as Kobe does, hence the significantly better FG%. In Kobe's defense, Jordan never really took 3s like that. But maybe Kobe shouldn't either.. or at least less.
right.. but to me it seems that if Kobe didn't force the issue and just let the game come to him the way Jordan did.. then Kobe would barely average 20 a game. Seems like Kobe has to take those tough shots consistently.
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I think it's a lot of factors, partially with Jordan (not Jordon, get it right) just being a more gifted basketball player along with the NBA just being different.
Jordan made shots that wouldn't have been made by a lot of other basketball players. Part of it was how he handled the ball (as he switched hands a bit when going in for a lay-up), how he moved (as a lot of people got faked out) and how he controlled his opponents' movement (like when he made the game-winning shot, I think against the Cavs). The last one is definitely something that Kobe doesn't really do, as Jordan has mentioned in videos what he would do, like how he would use his other hand to nudge his opponent in whatever direction he wanted them to go, which partially helped him be open more often to make the shot. Additionally, he had a really good jumping ability.
When I said that the NBA is different now, a lot of players are physically bigger than they were when Michael Jordan was around. A lot of the guys who would try to defend Jordan were at least similar in size, especially when matched up against their biggest rivals at the time. Kobe isn't much different than Jordan in terms of their size, but a lot of his rivals are bigger, like LeBron.
In the end, Jordan was just more confident in himself. He could dunk on people more easily, like where he dunked on a guy at an away game, then got heckled by someone courtside who told him to "dunk on someone [his] own size," then immediately afterward he dunked on a bigger guy and walked by the same person to ask him in response, "Was he big enough?" He was just better at making shots, as I remember a game where in the final seconds at the freethrow line, someone (I think it was Mutumbo) told him to shoot with his eyes closed, so he did and made it. Additionally, I remember the year he got $36 million, he said that he guaranteed that the Bulls would win the championship before the season even started, and again, they won. No one says that anymore.
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Jordan had better teammates who made the game much easier for him...also, keep in mind, the rules were a lot different back then. there was no zone defense or defensive three seconds in Jordan's era, making it much easier for players to penetrate the lane... also, due to how great those Bulls teams were as a collective unit, there was no triple-teaming or sagging off of other players to guard Jordan...Kobe is forced to take tough shots usually when his teammates are playin like shit and he has to bail them out. Different circumstances. When it comes down to it, Kobe has wasted many of his prime years on bullshit teams, while Jordan spent his prime on GREAT teams. Tell me of another player who averages 30 points in the playoffs in their 16th season...don't worry, i'll wait. Bottom line, I get what you sayin, but u have to take into account the different situations both players were placed in.
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When Jordan lost his athleticism he took turnaround fadeaways as well. He never forced it as much as Kobe does, hence the significantly better FG%. In Kobe's defense, Jordan never really took 3s like that. But maybe Kobe shouldn't either.. or at least less.
right.. but to me it seems that if Kobe didn't force the issue and just let the game come to him the way Jordan did.. then Kobe would barely average 20 a game. Seems like Kobe has to take those tough shots consistently.
kobe currently doesn't have the teammates to let the game come to him...when ur second option is gasol and he plays like an 8th option of the bench, then u HAVE to force the issue. much easier to let the game come to u when ur on a great team as opposed to just a good one, ya feel me?
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Jordan had better teammates who made the game much easier for him...also, keep in mind, the rules were a lot different back then. there was no zone defense or defensive three seconds in Jordan's era, making it much easier for players to penetrate the lane... also, due to how great those Bulls teams were as a collective unit, there was no triple-teaming or sagging off of other players to guard Jordan...Kobe is forced to take tough shots usually when his teammates are playin like shit and he has to bail them out. Different circumstances. When it comes down to it, Kobe has wasted many of his prime years on bullshit teams, while Jordan spent his prime on GREAT teams. Tell me of another player who averages 30 points in the playoffs in their 16th season...don't worry, i'll wait. Bottom line, I get what you sayin, but u have to take into account the different situations both players were placed in.
I know your a big Kobe fan but PLEASE - stop it. Just STOP. MJ didn't had better teamates - he had Scottie Pippen, who I agree was able to get him a lot of easy shots due to his great pasing and playmaking skills. Yes, Kobe don't got a player like Pippen around him therefor he must take tougher shots sometimes but let's make clear one thing - HE'S JOCKING SHOTS WAAAY TO MUCH and he dosen't have the same great shot selection Michael had. That's the main reason, his FG% is lower than Jordan's (43% this season).
As far as other teamates goes - either your blind, or your love for Kobe is so big it blurs your vision of reality. Overall, looking at their careers Kobe Bryant played with better teams and teamates. He had Shaq durning the first 3-peat. Not to mention Glen Rice, Big Shot Rob and a couple of other solid players (Fox, Brian Shaw, Fisher etc.). Michael had Pippen and Horace Grant, who has a solid player - other than that, the rest of the Bulls from 91-93 were decent as best. You wanna tell me Pippen has more values as a player than Shaq? LOL! I don't think so. Switch sides and see what happen. The Shaq and Kobe duo just were too immature to put their differences aside them and just play. If they would done that - Lakers would prolly won 5 rings in a row.
In Kobe's second Championship run, he had 2 of the Top 5 big men in the league right now in Bynum and Gasol. I can agree that they played with no heart and passion in some games but talent wise - they were better players than any big man, that played with Jordan durning his whole career. You seem to forget Michael had dudes like Wennington, Cartwright, Perdue, Longley, Kline etc. not to mention all-stars like Jud Buechler, who were just trash. Yeah, Rodman was good, but only in rebounds and defence - on the other side of the floor, he was useless. So it was Pippen and Jordan again, with additional help from Kukoc who was a good player but he never used all of his potential while playing in the NBA. Kobe on the other hand has not only Gasol and Bynum but Lamar Odom and Artest, who is a decent player although little overrated in terms of defence.
So talent wise - Kobe and the Lakers are better hands down. But Jordan and the Bulls fit better together.
And your wrong again with a statement that Kobe wasted his prime years playing on bullshit teams - statisticwise, you are correct. But numbers don't define player's prime. If so, MJ also wasted his prime years with the Bulls, as he was is his statistic-best in years 87 to 89 and who he played with on those Bulls teams, exept Oakley? Paxon? Dave Corzine? Brad Sellers? Ed Nealy? PLEASE. Kobe prime years were 2007-2010 - Michael was at his best from 1991 to 1993. Both of them were still young, had all the talent, shooting and jumping ability etc. and were mature enough to lead their teams to NBA Finals.
The "No Zone Defense" in Jordan playing years is a myth, as teams like Knicks and Detroit Bad Boys were both using zone defense durning their battles with the Bulls:
http://www.youtube.com/v/A6_GgXXR4vA
Also, Michael was getting double and triple teams on a daily basics, specially going on against the Pistons:
http://www.youtube.com/v/5K-qGWkiKvQ http://www.youtube.com/v/NLv2F33snCE
You seem to make everbody believe that today's NBA is so great and players are so better than in the 90' s that it just looks stupid. And the most ridiculous post of all that I read often here is that MJ would have problems playing in the NBA today. People seems to forgot, that an old, injured and slow Michael Jordan at 40 was playing at an all-star level durning the so called "Kobe Bryant era", running the floor, beating young guys with fresh legs off the dribble and scoring 30 and 40 points against the so-called "elite defenders" of today's NBA.
LOL, what a joke.
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When Jordan lost his athleticism he took turnaround fadeaways as well. He never forced it as much as Kobe does, hence the significantly better FG%. In Kobe's defense, Jordan never really took 3s like that. But maybe Kobe shouldn't either.. or at least less.
right.. but to me it seems that if Kobe didn't force the issue and just let the game come to him the way Jordan did.. then Kobe would barely average 20 a game. Seems like Kobe has to take those tough shots consistently.
kobe currently doesn't have the teammates to let the game come to him...when ur second option is gasol and he plays like an 8th option of the bench, then u HAVE to force the issue. much easier to let the game come to u when ur on a great team as opposed to just a good one, ya feel me?
So having the "best center" in a league devoid of big men doesn't count?
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not big on basketball but how can you take someone who spells Jordan "Jordon" seriously ? on some illiterate shit
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not big on basketball but how can you take someone who spells Jordan "Jordon" seriously ? on some illiterate shit
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOO.
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Jordan's second 3peat teammates were better then any of Kobe's championship teammates. I guess the 00-02 team could match up against Jordan's 91-93 team since Shaq was so dominate. But Jordan played alongside 2 hall of famers and a good bench. The year he retired they almost made it to the Eastern Conference Finals. Kobe's 4th and 5th championship were played with no HOFers and Bynum barely played in the 2009 playoffs. Even in 2010, Bynum got only 8.6 points and 6.9 rebounds in the playoffs as a starter. His break out years were in 2011 and 2012.
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Jordan had better teammates who made the game much easier for him...also, keep in mind, the rules were a lot different back then. there was no zone defense or defensive three seconds in Jordan's era, making it much easier for players to penetrate the lane... also, due to how great those Bulls teams were as a collective unit, there was no triple-teaming or sagging off of other players to guard Jordan...Kobe is forced to take tough shots usually when his teammates are playin like shit and he has to bail them out. Different circumstances. When it comes down to it, Kobe has wasted many of his prime years on bullshit teams, while Jordan spent his prime on GREAT teams. Tell me of another player who averages 30 points in the playoffs in their 16th season...don't worry, i'll wait. Bottom line, I get what you sayin, but u have to take into account the different situations both players were placed in.
I know your a big Kobe fan but PLEASE - stop it. Just STOP. MJ didn't had better teamates - he had Scottie Pippen, who I agree was able to get him a lot of easy shots due to his great pasing and playmaking skills. Yes, Kobe don't got a player like Pippen around him therefor he must take tougher shots sometimes but let's make clear one thing - HE'S JOCKING SHOTS WAAAY TO MUCH and he dosen't have the same great shot selection Michael had. That's the main reason, his FG% is lower than Jordan's (43% this season).
As far as other teamates goes - either your blind, or your love for Kobe is so big it blurs your vision of reality. Overall, looking at their careers Kobe Bryant played with better teams and teamates. He had Shaq durning the first 3-peat. Not to mention Glen Rice, Big Shot Rob and a couple of other solid players (Fox, Brian Shaw, Fisher etc.). Michael had Pippen and Horace Grant, who has a solid player - other than that, the rest of the Bulls from 91-93 were decent as best. You wanna tell me Pippen has more values as a player than Shaq? LOL! I don't think so. Switch sides and see what happen. The Shaq and Kobe duo just were too immature to put their differences aside them and just play. If they would done that - Lakers would prolly won 5 rings in a row.
In Kobe's second Championship run, he had 2 of the Top 5 big men in the league right now in Bynum and Gasol. I can agree that they played with no heart and passion in some games but talent wise - they were better players than any big man, that played with Jordan durning his whole career. You seem to forget Michael had dudes like Wennington, Cartwright, Perdue, Longley, Kline etc. not to mention all-stars like Jud Buechler, who were just trash. Yeah, Rodman was good, but only in rebounds and defence - on the other side of the floor, he was useless. So it was Pippen and Jordan again, with additional help from Kukoc who was a good player but he never used all of his potential while playing in the NBA. Kobe on the other hand has not only Gasol and Bynum but Lamar Odom and Artest, who is a decent player although little overrated in terms of defence.
So talent wise - Kobe and the Lakers are better hands down. But Jordan and the Bulls fit better together.
And your wrong again with a statement that Kobe wasted his prime years playing on bullshit teams - statisticwise, you are correct. But numbers don't define player's prime. If so, MJ also wasted his prime years with the Bulls, as he was is his statistic-best in years 87 to 89 and who he played with on those Bulls teams, exept Oakley? Paxon? Dave Corzine? Brad Sellers? Ed Nealy? PLEASE. Kobe prime years were 2007-2010 - Michael was at his best from 1991 to 1993. Both of them were still young, had all the talent, shooting and jumping ability etc. and were mature enough to lead their teams to NBA Finals.
The "No Zone Defense" in Jordan playing years is a myth, as teams like Knicks and Detroit Bad Boys were both using zone defense durning their battles with the Bulls:
http://www.youtube.com/v/A6_GgXXR4vA
Also, Michael was getting double and triple teams on a daily basics, specially going on against the Pistons:
http://www.youtube.com/v/5K-qGWkiKvQ http://www.youtube.com/v/NLv2F33snCE
You seem to make everbody believe that today's NBA is so great and players are so better than in the 90' s that it just looks stupid. And the most ridiculous post of all that I read often here is that MJ would have problems playing in the NBA today. People seems to forgot, that an old, injured and slow Michael Jordan at 40 was playing at an all-star level durning the so called "Kobe Bryant era", running the floor, beating young guys with fresh legs off the dribble and scoring 30 and 40 points against the so-called "elite defenders" of today's NBA.
LOL, what a joke.
i stopped taking u seriously in the opening sentence, when u said "MJ didn't have better teammates"....LMFAO. and no, the main reason why Kobe's field goal percentage is lower is because he has three point range, while Jordan didn't. Players who shoot threes naturally have lower field goal percentages. you know, Shaq also shot more efficiently than Jordan...u know why? BECAUSE HE HAD LESS RANGE. as for teammates, i'm not talking about the kobe-shaq teams..those teams were amazing and on par with the Bulls....but ever since Shaq left, Kobe hasn't had ANY teams comparable to the Bulls. Scottie Pippen, at one point, was regarded the 2nd best player in the NBA behind Jordan. dude literally did EVERYTHING. on defense, he was assigned the best player on the perimeter and would typically lock them down. on offense, he was a point forward who ran the offense to perfection. If Kobe had a player like Pippen to play with for these past 10 years, believe that he would currently have more rings than just 5. then you have Horace Grant, who was also an all-star, so was BJ Armstrong...Dennis Rodman was the greatest rebounder in NBA history...Ron Harper was the perfect vet to run point in the triangle...dependable sharp shooters like Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Toni Kukoc, etc. who the Lakers NEVER had (especially not this year). and most of all, great team play. Those sort of luxuries open the game for players like Jordan, and Kobe has not had them in these past few years. I've said it before, the year Kobe went back-to-back, he did it with WAY less than Jordan ever did it with.
now, u say we had 2 of the top big men in the league when Kobe won....nope. Bynum was injured and didn't even play or got limited minutes. Gasol was playing big those years, but he hasn't been consistent, and in terms of a second option, he's NEVER been comparable to a player like Pippen. Jordan never had bigs? shiiit, he had Rodman, who locked down the opposing big night in and night out...thats more than we can say for Gasol. and yes, being the greatest rebounder of all time is pretty big, as well.
and the NBA today isn't "so much greater"...but the athleticism has definitely gone way up. Jordan played mostly against a bunch of slow aging players on the perimeter. It wasn't a superstar filled league like today where you have Durant, Wade, LeBron, Melo, etc. jumpin out the buildin...i dont care what the Pistons did in the 80s, zone defense rules were completely different back then, and yes, it was illegal. Like i said, defenses were way less crowded on the perimeter back then. this is just common sense.....oh yea, and despite the fact that he was old, Jordan was pretty mediocre during his run with the Wizards. Kobe schooled him in one game, I will never forget, I was there. Kobe scored 42 points in the first half against him! he rested most of the second, but that shit was straight mind-blowing back then. If Kobe had the same luxuries as Jordan, who knows how many rings he'd have?
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When Jordan lost his athleticism he took turnaround fadeaways as well. He never forced it as much as Kobe does, hence the significantly better FG%. In Kobe's defense, Jordan never really took 3s like that. But maybe Kobe shouldn't either.. or at least less.
right.. but to me it seems that if Kobe didn't force the issue and just let the game come to him the way Jordan did.. then Kobe would barely average 20 a game. Seems like Kobe has to take those tough shots consistently.
kobe currently doesn't have the teammates to let the game come to him...when ur second option is gasol and he plays like an 8th option of the bench, then u HAVE to force the issue. much easier to let the game come to u when ur on a great team as opposed to just a good one, ya feel me?
So having the "best center" in a league devoid of big men doesn't count?
how many rebounds did that best center have in the elimination game against the Thunder? Bynum is a beast, but he still has mental lapses, since he's still maturing and finding himself...this was his "Kobe airball vs the jazz" type moment. a straight learning experience. he was not experienced enough to be dependable..yet.
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i stopped taking u seriously in the opening sentence, when u said "MJ didn't have better teammates"....LMFAO. and no, the main reason why Kobe's field goal percentage is lower is because he has three point range, while Jordan didn't. Players who shoot threes naturally have lower field goal percentages. you know, Shaq also shot more efficiently than Jordan...u know why? BECAUSE HE HAD LESS RANGE. as for teammates, i'm not talking about the kobe-shaq teams..those teams were amazing and on par with the Bulls....but ever since Shaq left, Kobe hasn't had ANY teams comparable to the Bulls. Scottie Pippen, at one point, was regarded the 2nd best player in the NBA behind Jordan. dude literally did EVERYTHING. on defense, he was assigned the best player on the perimeter and would typically lock them down. on offense, he was a point forward who ran the offense to perfection. If Kobe had a player like Pippen to play with for these past 10 years, believe that he would currently have more rings than just 5. then you have Horace Grant, who was also an all-star, so was BJ Armstrong...Dennis Rodman was the greatest rebounder in NBA history...Ron Harper was the perfect vet to run point in the triangle...dependable sharp shooters like Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Toni Kukoc, etc. who the Lakers NEVER had (especially not this year). and most of all, great team play. Those sort of luxuries open the game for players like Jordan, and Kobe has not had them in these past few years. I've said it before, the year Kobe went back-to-back, he did it with WAY less than Jordan ever did it with.
now, u say we had 2 of the top big men in the league when Kobe won....nope. Bynum was injured and didn't even play or got limited minutes. Gasol was playing big those years, but he hasn't been consistent, and in terms of a second option, he's NEVER been comparable to a player like Pippen. Jordan never had bigs? shiiit, he had Rodman, who locked down the opposing big night in and night out...thats more than we can say for Gasol. and yes, being the greatest rebounder of all time is pretty big, as well.
and the NBA today isn't "so much greater"...but the athleticism has definitely gone way up. Jordan played mostly against a bunch of slow aging players on the perimeter. It wasn't a superstar filled league like today where you have Durant, Wade, LeBron, Melo, etc. jumpin out the buildin...i dont care what the Pistons did in the 80s, zone defense rules were completely different back then, and yes, it was illegal. Like i said, defenses were way less crowded on the perimeter back then. this is just common sense.....oh yea, and despite the fact that he was old, Jordan was pretty mediocre during his run with the Wizards. Kobe schooled him in one game, I will never forget, I was there. Kobe scored 42 points in the first half against him! he rested most of the second, but that shit was straight mind-blowing back then. If Kobe had the same luxuries as Jordan, who knows how many rings he'd have?
I stopped taking you seriously after I read that BJ Amstrong was an All-Star... LOL.
I've said in my previous post, that Kobe never had a player like Pippen around him. But talentwise - his teamates had better basketball talent overall. If you think BJ Amstrong was an "All-Star" talent, or played at an "All-Star" level, then players like Artest should be called "Hall Of Famers" at least.
Michael had a solid 3-point range, but he didn't used it as much as Kobe simply because he had better shot selections than Mr. Bryant and was able to create better shot opportunities for himself due to his bigger body and higher athleticism. Michael was also more efficient and scored a lot easier because he let the triangle offense work for him, while Kobe is much more passive is his role, taking tougher shots and making his teamates just stand around and watch. I agree that Kobe is slightly better at 3-point shooting than MJ was, but he ain't a great 3-point shooter himself like you trying to pretend he is.
And please tell me, what's your definition of a BIG MAN? Cause Dennis Rodman was 6-7, 210 lbs and he wasen't a BIG MAN by any standars. Yes, he was a great rebounder and a great defender but on the other side of the floor - he was useless on offense and you know it. So don't compare his offensive contribution to Bynum and Gasol. Even if they're playing soft and with no heart - they still got better offensive numbers than Worm.
"Jordan played mostly against a bunch of slow aging players on the perimeter. It wasn't a superstar filled league like today..." - wrong again. Back then, the NBA had just as much talent as today. Jordan was guarded by Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Ray Allen, Latrell Sprewell, Hersey Hawkins, Nick Anderson and so on. Not to mention elite defenders like Payton or Dumars who were shorter than Mike but their defensive skills were incredible. Naming them "slow, aging players" is a ridiculous statement and it clearly shows you will turn everything around just to prove your point.
Oh, and since averaging 20 points, 6 rebounds, 4 asists for a 40-year old guy that's playing with an injured leg is "MEDICIORE", than LOL - I don't have anything else to say. But since you so in love with statistics, how your feeling with a fact, that a 40-year old Jordan had better steal & block shots numbers than Kobe had this & last season?
Plus Kobe didn't schooled Jordan in that 55-point game of his - most of Kobe's points were made when he was guarded by Jerry Stackhouse. He scored 42 points against Washington Wizards - not Michael Jordan. Get your facts straight and stop lying to people.
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LOL jor-don
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i stopped taking u seriously in the opening sentence, when u said "MJ didn't have better teammates"....LMFAO. and no, the main reason why Kobe's field goal percentage is lower is because he has three point range, while Jordan didn't. Players who shoot threes naturally have lower field goal percentages. you know, Shaq also shot more efficiently than Jordan...u know why? BECAUSE HE HAD LESS RANGE. as for teammates, i'm not talking about the kobe-shaq teams..those teams were amazing and on par with the Bulls....but ever since Shaq left, Kobe hasn't had ANY teams comparable to the Bulls. Scottie Pippen, at one point, was regarded the 2nd best player in the NBA behind Jordan. dude literally did EVERYTHING. on defense, he was assigned the best player on the perimeter and would typically lock them down. on offense, he was a point forward who ran the offense to perfection. If Kobe had a player like Pippen to play with for these past 10 years, believe that he would currently have more rings than just 5. then you have Horace Grant, who was also an all-star, so was BJ Armstrong...Dennis Rodman was the greatest rebounder in NBA history...Ron Harper was the perfect vet to run point in the triangle...dependable sharp shooters like Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Toni Kukoc, etc. who the Lakers NEVER had (especially not this year). and most of all, great team play. Those sort of luxuries open the game for players like Jordan, and Kobe has not had them in these past few years. I've said it before, the year Kobe went back-to-back, he did it with WAY less than Jordan ever did it with.
now, u say we had 2 of the top big men in the league when Kobe won....nope. Bynum was injured and didn't even play or got limited minutes. Gasol was playing big those years, but he hasn't been consistent, and in terms of a second option, he's NEVER been comparable to a player like Pippen. Jordan never had bigs? shiiit, he had Rodman, who locked down the opposing big night in and night out...thats more than we can say for Gasol. and yes, being the greatest rebounder of all time is pretty big, as well.
and the NBA today isn't "so much greater"...but the athleticism has definitely gone way up. Jordan played mostly against a bunch of slow aging players on the perimeter. It wasn't a superstar filled league like today where you have Durant, Wade, LeBron, Melo, etc. jumpin out the buildin...i dont care what the Pistons did in the 80s, zone defense rules were completely different back then, and yes, it was illegal. Like i said, defenses were way less crowded on the perimeter back then. this is just common sense.....oh yea, and despite the fact that he was old, Jordan was pretty mediocre during his run with the Wizards. Kobe schooled him in one game, I will never forget, I was there. Kobe scored 42 points in the first half against him! he rested most of the second, but that shit was straight mind-blowing back then. If Kobe had the same luxuries as Jordan, who knows how many rings he'd have?
I stopped taking you seriously after I read that BJ Amstrong was an All-Star... LOL.
I've said in my previous post, that Kobe never had a player like Pippen around him. But talentwise - his teamates had better basketball talent overall. If you think BJ Amstrong was an "All-Star" talent, or played at an "All-Star" level, then players like Artest should be called "Hall Of Famers" at least.
Michael had a solid 3-point range, but he didn't used it as much as Kobe simply because he had better shot selections than Mr. Bryant and was able to create better shot opportunities for himself due to his bigger body and higher athleticism. Michael was also more efficient and scored a lot easier because he let the triangle offense work for him, while Kobe is much more passive is his role, taking tougher shots and making his teamates just stand around and watch. I agree that Kobe is slightly better at 3-point shooting than MJ was, but he ain't a great 3-point shooter himself like you trying to pretend he is.
And please tell me, what's your definition of a BIG MAN? Cause Dennis Rodman was 6-7, 210 lbs and he wasen't a BIG MAN by any standars. Yes, he was a great rebounder and a great defender but on the other side of the floor - he was useless on offense and you know it. So don't compare his offensive contribution to Bynum and Gasol. Even if they're playing soft and with no heart - they still got better offensive numbers than Worm.
"Jordan played mostly against a bunch of slow aging players on the perimeter. It wasn't a superstar filled league like today..." - wrong again. Back then, the NBA had just as much talent as today. Jordan was guarded by Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Ray Allen, Latrell Sprewell, Hersey Hawkins, Nick Anderson and so on. Not to mention elite defenders like Payton or Dumars who were shorter than Mike but their defensive skills were incredible. Naming them "slow, aging players" is a ridiculous statement and it clearly shows you will turn everything around just to prove your point.
Oh, and since averaging 20 points, 6 rebounds, 4 asists for a 40-year old guy that's playing with an injured leg is "MEDICIORE", than LOL - I don't have anything else to say. But since you so in love with statistics, how your feeling with a fact, that a 40-year old Jordan had better steal & block shots numbers than Kobe had this & last season?
Plus Kobe didn't schooled Jordan in that 55-point game of his - most of Kobe's points were made when he was guarded by Jerry Stackhouse. He scored 42 points against Washington Wizards - not Michael Jordan. Get your facts straight and stop lying to people.
well, BJ Armstrong WAS an all-star, so wtf are u saying? u tryna argue whether he was an all-star or not? come on, now LOL. fact of the matter is, as Ted pointed out, Kobe has won with way less than Jordan, especially in his second three-peat. Kobe won with ZERO hall-of-famers on his team, while Jordan had TWO future hall-of-famers in his supporting cast. big difference. as for Kobe's three point range, it's true that he hasn't been as great recently, with his finger and wrist injuries...but prior to his last two seasons with the fucked up hand, he was regarded as one of the best and purest shooters in the game. shit, he even holds the NBA record for most threes made in a game.
And now Dennis Rodman isn't a big man? smh...what position did Rodman play? forget his height, dude was ALWAYS assigned to the opposing teams best big, and was a premier defender and rebounder playing POWER FORWARD. Charles Barkley was 6"4', was he also not a big man? height don't matter, if u play big, ur a big man. and they didn't need him in the offense...the Bulls ran their offense through the perimeter, Rodman was just there to clean up the glass and shut down the opposition, as he did. dude was HUGE.
now, look at the perimeter players of jordan's era that u named....the best ones were clyde drexler and joe dumars, and they were both out of their prime when jordan finally started winning. face it, the athleticism of the wings wasn't what it is today. theres no way around that. gary payton? LOL...he was a point guard. jordan was facing byron russell and hersey hawkins on the wing in the finals of his second threepeat. back then, most of the best players were bigs... today's league is much different.
and who cares if jordan averaged 20 points and better blocks n steals on a team that couldnt even make the playoffs? was he on any all-defense teams in those years?? come on..ur lookin kinda funny right about now tryna defend wizards jordan and pinnin him up against Kobe LOL. and I really don't give a fuck who Kobe scored 42 points in a half against. fact of the matter is, that shit was amazin, regardless. it was the final kobe vs. jordan showdown, and jordan's final game in LA. shit was epic.
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well, BJ Armstrong WAS an all-star, so wtf are u saying? u tryna argue whether he was an all-star or not? come on, now LOL. fact of the matter is, as Ted pointed out, Kobe has won with way less than Jordan, especially in his second three-peat. Kobe won with ZERO hall-of-famers on his team, while Jordan had TWO future hall-of-famers in his supporting cast. big difference. as for Kobe's three point range, it's true that he hasn't been as great recently, with his finger and wrist injuries...but prior to his last two seasons with the fucked up hand, he was regarded as one of the best and purest shooters in the game. shit, he even holds the NBA record for most threes made in a game.
And now Dennis Rodman isn't a big man? smh...what position did Rodman play? forget his height, dude was ALWAYS assigned to the opposing teams best big, and was a premier defender and rebounder playing POWER FORWARD. Charles Barkley was 6"4', was he also not a big man? height don't matter, if u play big, ur a big man. and they didn't need him in the offense...the Bulls ran their offense through the perimeter, Rodman was just there to clean up the glass and shut down the opposition, as he did. dude was HUGE.
now, look at the perimeter players of jordan's era that u named....the best ones were clyde drexler and joe dumars, and they were both out of their prime when jordan finally started winning. face it, the athleticism of the wings wasn't what it is today. theres no way around that. gary payton? LOL...he was a point guard. jordan was facing byron russell and hersey hawkins on the wing in the finals of his second threepeat. back then, most of the best players were bigs... today's league is much different.
and who cares if jordan averaged 20 points and better blocks n steals on a team that couldnt even make the playoffs? was he on any all-defense teams in those years?? come on..ur lookin kinda funny right about now tryna defend wizards jordan and pinnin him up against Kobe LOL. and I really don't give a fuck who Kobe scored 42 points in a half against. fact of the matter is, that shit was amazin, regardless. it was the final kobe vs. jordan showdown, and jordan's final game in LA. shit was epic.
BJ Armstrong was voted in an All-Star Game ONCE, in 1994 when Bulls were playing without Jordan. Just cause he has ONE All-Star appearance, dosen't mean he's an ALL-STAR talent and can be consider one. Specially, when your career average is only 10 points, 2 rebounds and 3 asists - THAT IS NOT AN ALL-STAR LEVEL OF PLAY. Bill Cartwright also played in one All-Star game back in 1980, but you ain't going to consider him being and All-Star Player, will you? With that being said, BJ was a solid baller and he definitely had his role in Chicago first 3-peat.
Let's move on to the next subject.
"Kobe has won with way less than Jordan, especially in his second three-peat." So your suggesting, that when Lakers won their first 3-peat, they still had less talent than 91-93 Bulls? Even tho, you've said in your previous post that QUOTE: "i'm not talking about the kobe-shaq teams..those teams were amazing and on par with the Bulls". So which one is it?
Now to the Kobe's 3-point shooting. Prior to his last 2 seasons, he was 35% from 3-point line in 08-09 season which isin't great or even close to mind blowing. I agree, he has great range from beyond the line, but that does not mean he is a great 3-point shooter. Reggie Miller was a great 3-point shooter - Kobe is a good 3-point shooter, even if he holds the NBA record for most threes made in a game. Michael once had a record for most 3-pointers made in a half durning NBA Finals, but that dosen't mean he was a great 3-point shooter. He was GOOD, not GREAT - same goes for Kobe.
This is the part I really like. So your saying, that the only good players Jordan faced on the perimeter were Drexler and Dumars, and "they were both out of their prime when jordan finally started winning"... REALLY? Hmm, let's see.
When MJ started winning (1990-1991 Season) Drexler averaged 21.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.0 asists, 1.8 steals and 0.7 blocks per game. In 1992 season he moved up to 25 points per game, with 6.6 rebounds, 6.7 asists, 1.8 steals and 0.9 blocks following. He shot at least 47% from the field and 79% from the free throw line, not to mention he played about only 35 minutes a game in those years. Blazers finished with a 63-19 record in 90-91 and 57-25 in 91-92. In the finals against Bulls, he was balling even more going for 26.3 pts/per game, 7.4 rebounds and 7.0 asists.
Not bad for a player, that you said was "out of his prime" - LOL. Who your trying to fool around here?
Same goes for Dumars - yes, Pistons championship run was over, but Joe was still playing at a high level averaging at least 20 point and 4 asists durning Bulls first 3-peat. And I ain't even consider him to be in a Top 2 perimeter players Jordan faced durning Bulls first championship run.
You excluded one of the greatest pure shooters in NBA history in Reggie Miller, who played with even greater intense against MJ than Dumars in my opinion. Same goes for Mitch Richmond, one of the most underrated pure shooters in the history of the NBA, that been balling hard up until Jordan's final championship, averaging at least 22 points per game. And so what Gary Payton was a point guard? He was a great defender and was guarding MJ a lot, not only in NBA Finals and did a great job with it. Starks was 2 inches shorter than Michael, but he could guard like crazy. Plus don't forget that a prime Grant Hill was also playing on the perimeter, defending against Jordan i a lot of games. Not to mention prime Penny Hardaway or Latrell Sprewell, who was an explosive player durning his heyday. There was also a large group of good players that didn't used all of their potential in the NBA like Cedric Ceballos, Nick Anderson, Steve Smith or Kendall Gill, who put pressure on Jordan with their tough defense...
You like to pretend Michael only faced "short white guys" like Craig Ehlo, who didn't match his athleticism, but you like to forget that durning the 90's, NBA had some great pure shooters that were "white" and "unathletic" by your standards. Ever saw a prime Chris Mullin playing? Or Drazen Petrovic (who Reggie Miller once said he was the best shooter he ever play against)? I guess not, judging what ridiculous statements of yours I've been reading here in every topic regarding MJ for quite some time...
"who cares if jordan averaged 20 points and better blocks n steals on a team that couldnt even make the playoffs?" See, here you go again, trying to turn everything around to your favor in this argument.
So, let me get this straight - when a 40-year old Jordan is playing his last NBA season on a bad team with a bad leg, and he's still going head to head with most of the NBA players in their athletic prime, while putting All-Star numbers - it's "MEDICORE" because his team didn't make the Play-Offs. So how will you judge Kobe's 04-05 season, when he was NBA's 2nd best player with 27.6 points and a career-high 6 asists per game - he was balling on a bad team, so what do you have to say about it? Was it mind blowing, because he had great season individually, or you don't care because the Lakers didn't make the Play-Off?
If someone here is looking hella funny - it is you my friend. Let me QUOTE you again"
First you've said: "Kobe schooled him in one game, I will never forget, I was there. Kobe scored 42 points in the first half against him!" reffering to MJ last game in LA. Then, when I proved to you most of Kobe's points came when he was guarded by Jerry Stackhouse, and he scored 55 points against Washington Wizards, not just Michael Jordan - what do you do? You just turn things around to make a point in your favor, saying "I really don't give a fuck who Kobe scored 42 points in a half against." So please, make up your mind.
See, now I know why people get so irritated, trying to have a legit conversation with you. It's because your being 100% blind with your love for Kobe and you won't admit Mr. Bryant DOES mistakes on a basketball court, which he DOES by the way. So stop defend him all the time and face it he ain't a perfect basketball player neither is he THE GREATEST ONE.
He's ONE OF THE GREATEST in Basketball history - plain and simple.
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LOL, NIK is getting ethered.
This conversation will flip to NIK throwing personal insults, trying to change the subject from basketball within the next three posts lmao.
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well, BJ Armstrong WAS an all-star, so wtf are u saying? u tryna argue whether he was an all-star or not? come on, now LOL. fact of the matter is, as Ted pointed out, Kobe has won with way less than Jordan, especially in his second three-peat. Kobe won with ZERO hall-of-famers on his team, while Jordan had TWO future hall-of-famers in his supporting cast. big difference. as for Kobe's three point range, it's true that he hasn't been as great recently, with his finger and wrist injuries...but prior to his last two seasons with the fucked up hand, he was regarded as one of the best and purest shooters in the game. shit, he even holds the NBA record for most threes made in a game.
And now Dennis Rodman isn't a big man? smh...what position did Rodman play? forget his height, dude was ALWAYS assigned to the opposing teams best big, and was a premier defender and rebounder playing POWER FORWARD. Charles Barkley was 6"4', was he also not a big man? height don't matter, if u play big, ur a big man. and they didn't need him in the offense...the Bulls ran their offense through the perimeter, Rodman was just there to clean up the glass and shut down the opposition, as he did. dude was HUGE.
now, look at the perimeter players of jordan's era that u named....the best ones were clyde drexler and joe dumars, and they were both out of their prime when jordan finally started winning. face it, the athleticism of the wings wasn't what it is today. theres no way around that. gary payton? LOL...he was a point guard. jordan was facing byron russell and hersey hawkins on the wing in the finals of his second threepeat. back then, most of the best players were bigs... today's league is much different.
and who cares if jordan averaged 20 points and better blocks n steals on a team that couldnt even make the playoffs? was he on any all-defense teams in those years?? come on..ur lookin kinda funny right about now tryna defend wizards jordan and pinnin him up against Kobe LOL. and I really don't give a fuck who Kobe scored 42 points in a half against. fact of the matter is, that shit was amazin, regardless. it was the final kobe vs. jordan showdown, and jordan's final game in LA. shit was epic.
BJ Armstrong was voted in an All-Star Game ONCE, in 1994 when Bulls were playing without Jordan. Just cause he has ONE All-Star appearance, dosen't mean he's an ALL-STAR talent and can be consider one. Specially, when your career average is only 10 points, 2 rebounds and 3 asists - THAT IS NOT AN ALL-STAR LEVEL OF PLAY. Bill Cartwright also played in one All-Star game back in 1980, but you ain't going to consider him being and All-Star Player, will you? With that being said, BJ was a solid baller and he definitely had his role in Chicago first 3-peat.
lol..yes. if u make it to an all-star game, u are considered an all-star. i dont care about his career averages, he was ballin during the Bulls' first threepeat.
"Kobe has won with way less than Jordan, especially in his second three-peat." So your suggesting, that when Lakers won their first 3-peat, they still had less talent than 91-93 Bulls? Even tho, you've said in your previous post that QUOTE: "i'm not talking about the kobe-shaq teams..those teams were amazing and on par with the Bulls". So which one is it?
what dont u get? i'm talkin bout kobe's last two titles...LOL. pretty obvious what i'm referring too, especially after i already clarified.
Now to the Kobe's 3-point shooting. Prior to his last 2 seasons, he was 35% from 3-point line in 08-09 season which isin't great or even close to mind blowing. I agree, he has great range from beyond the line, but that does not mean he is a great 3-point shooter. Reggie Miller was a great 3-point shooter - Kobe is a good 3-point shooter, even if he holds the NBA record for most threes made in a game. Michael once had a record for most 3-pointers made in a half durning NBA Finals, but that dosen't mean he was a great 3-point shooter. He was GOOD, not GREAT - same goes for Kobe.
Kobe had a great stroke from three...forget about the percentages, Kobe shoots a lot of percentage-busters, bail out threes with the shot-clock winding down, fadeaway threes over 2 defenders. he's not just a "catch-and-shoot wide-open threes" typa shooter, who are typically much higher in terms of percentage. when kobe had it going, he was unstoppable from behind the arc. not quite reggie miller or glen rice, but they were shooting specialists. kobe's an overall player, and his stroke has always been lightyears ahead of Jordan's..especially from long range.
This is the part I really like. So your saying, that the only good players Jordan faced on the perimeter were Drexler and Dumars, and "they were both out of their prime when jordan finally started winning"... REALLY? Hmm, let's see.
When MJ started winning (1990-1991 Season) Drexler averaged 21.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.0 asists, 1.8 steals and 0.7 blocks per game. In 1992 season he moved up to 25 points per game, with 6.6 rebounds, 6.7 asists, 1.8 steals and 0.9 blocks following. He shot at least 47% from the field and 79% from the free throw line, not to mention he played about only 35 minutes a game in those years. Blazers finished with a 63-19 record in 90-91 and 57-25 in 91-92. In the finals against Bulls, he was balling even more going for 26.3 pts/per game, 7.4 rebounds and 7.0 asists.
Not bad for a player, that you said was "out of his prime" - LOL. Who your trying to fool around here?
Same goes for Dumars - yes, Pistons championship run was over, but Joe was still playing at a high level averaging at least 20 point and 4 asists durning Bulls first 3-peat. And I ain't even consider him to be in a Top 2 perimeter players Jordan faced durning Bulls first championship run.
You excluded one of the greatest pure shooters in NBA history in Reggie Miller, who played with even greater intense against MJ than Dumars in my opinion. Same goes for Mitch Richmond, one of the most underrated pure shooters in the history of the NBA, that been balling hard up until Jordan's final championship, averaging at least 22 points per game. And so what Gary Payton was a point guard? He was a great defender and was guarding MJ a lot, not only in NBA Finals and did a great job with it. Starks was 2 inches shorter than Michael, but he could guard like crazy. Plus don't forget that a prime Grant Hill was also playing on the perimeter, defending against Jordan i a lot of games. Not to mention prime Penny Hardaway or Latrell Sprewell, who was an explosive player durning his heyday. There was also a large group of good players that didn't used all of their potential in the NBA like Cedric Ceballos, Nick Anderson, Steve Smith or Kendall Gill, who put pressure on Jordan with their tough defense...
You like to pretend Michael only faced "short white guys" like Craig Ehlo, who didn't match his athleticism, but you like to forget that durning the 90's, NBA had some great pure shooters that were "white" and "unathletic" by your standards. Ever saw a prime Chris Mullin playing? Or Drazen Petrovic (who Reggie Miller once said he was the best shooter he ever play against)? I guess not, judging what ridiculous statements of yours I've been reading here in every topic regarding MJ for quite some time...
bro...i dont get it? it's widely accepted that NBA wings are much more athletic nowadays, and that the shift of talent has gone from bigs to perimeter players from when jordan was playing to now. yes, reggie miller, ol' joe dumars, clyde drexler, mitch richmond, young penny hardaway, etc. were all good. but they weren't amongst the top players in the league in those days. barkley, malone, ewing, shaq, etc. were...nowadays league is being ran by durant's, lebrons, wades, etc....if u dont get what i'm saying, that's pretty awkward.
"who cares if jordan averaged 20 points and better blocks n steals on a team that couldnt even make the playoffs?" See, here you go again, trying to turn everything around to your favor in this argument.
So, let me get this straight - when a 40-year old Jordan is playing his last NBA season on a bad team with a bad leg, and he's still going head to head with most of the NBA players in their athletic prime, while putting All-Star numbers - it's "MEDICORE" because his team didn't make the Play-Offs. So how will you judge Kobe's 04-05 season, when he was NBA's 2nd best player with 27.6 points and a career-high 6 asists per game - he was balling on a bad team, so what do you have to say about it? Was it mind blowing, because he had great season individually, or you don't care because the Lakers didn't make the Play-Off?
i was just pointing out that it's dumb of u to compare wizard jordan to current kobe..that is all
If someone here is looking hella funny - it is you my friend. Let me QUOTE you again"
First you've said: "Kobe schooled him in one game, I will never forget, I was there. Kobe scored 42 points in the first half against him!" reffering to MJ last game in LA. Then, when I proved to you most of Kobe's points came when he was guarded by Jerry Stackhouse, and he scored 55 points against Washington Wizards, not just Michael Jordan - what do you do? You just turn things around to make a point in your favor, saying "I really don't give a fuck who Kobe scored 42 points in a half against." So please, make up your mind.
first of all, jordan did guard kobe for some of the game, i was there...but that wasnt my point. the showdown was billed as the final kobe vs. jordan match-up. it's not about who he scored all the points on, it's about the fact the he showed jordan who the torch now belongs to. thats all i was gettin at.
See, now I know why people get so irritated, trying to have a legit conversation with you. It's because your being 100% blind with your love for Kobe and you won't admit Mr. Bryant DOES mistakes on a basketball court, which he DOES by the way. So stop defend him all the time and face it he ain't a perfect basketball player neither is he THE GREATEST ONE.
He's ONE OF THE GREATEST in Basketball history - plain and simple.
and in my eyes, there is no GOAT...there are many different GOAT's, and Kobe is one of them. but if one wants to argue Jordan as GOAT, someone else can make a case for Kobe (especially if he wins any more rings). there could be cases made for Wilt, Magic, Russell, Kareem, etc. as well. but the fact of the matter is, EVERY player makes mistakes...there has never been a flawless player in this league. but the jordan brand/basketball media damn sure do go out of their way to make it seem like MJ was the flawless prototype of what a basketball player should be, and lots of simple-minded mufuckaz and casual basketball fans eat it up. thats all i'm really gettin at here.
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NIK: forget media. Is MJ not the most accomplished player of all time, when you combine individual and team accomplishments? Only Jabbar is messing with him. The media has nothing to do with how good Jordan was, only how good people perceive him to be. fact of the matter
Is Jordan hit game winners and clutch shots on a level no one had seen before, shot at an extremely high percentage for a perimeter player, was a great defensive player, was the best scorer since Wilt, won 6 championships despite arriving to a shit team, despite never being on a team with a post player who could carry any part of the burden defensively. Jordan was not flawless like people will have you believe, but he was great at both ends, played his best when it mattered most, and is the man Kobe has clearly modeled his game after. Not sure why you don't think he's the best man- forget the media and judge for yourself.
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NIK: forget media. Is MJ not the most accomplished player of all time, when you combine individual and team accomplishments? Only Jabbar is messing with him. The media has nothing to do with how good Jordan was, only how good people perceive him to be. fact of the matter
Is Jordan hit game winners and clutch shots on a level no one had seen before, shot at an extremely high percentage for a perimeter player, was a great defensive player, was the best scorer since Wilt, won 6 championships despite arriving to a shit team, despite never being on a team with a post player who could carry any part of the burden defensively. Jordan was not flawless like people will have you believe, but he was great at both ends, played his best when it mattered most, and is the man Kobe has clearly modeled his game after. Not sure why you don't think he's the best man- forget the media and judge for yourself.
like i said, in terms of career accomplishments, kobe will never match jordan...but if accomplishments was what we went by, Bill Russell is GOAT. Jordan and Kobe were drafted into two completely different situations...Jordan came out of college and was handed the keys to a struggling franchise, where he could put up unlimited stats from day 1. He kept losing until he had the perfect team built around him. Kobe came out of high school to the greatest NBA franchise of all time, and wasnt expected to do much. He had to work his way up from coming off the bench, to taking over the franchise, and had to GRAB the keys and run with 'em...still, a lot of his prime years were wasted on sub-par teams, while Jordan's prime years were ALL on great teams. Kobe has shit on Jordan, as well. U wanna talk about who the better scorer is? ask Phil Jackson....nobody, not even Jordan, could score like Kobe could in his prime. Kobe has also had his share of game winners.. in fact, there was one season in which he had 8 game winners. Jordan never came close to that in 1 season. and you wanna say Kobe modeled his game after Jordan?...you're right, he took aspects of Jordan's game and built on em, just like Jordan did with Dr. J...but the bottom line is, Kobe is already regarded as one of the GOATs...when his career and all said and done, i think a lot of people will fall back and realize what the league had in its hands and took for granted. Kobe has never gotten the respect, the push from the league, the media love, the marketing, etc. that the Jordan brand has received...that plays a huge part in why there's a perception that there's a huge gap between Jordan and any other player.
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NIk, you skew things often, and this is no different. Kobe has 5 titles...partly due to the fact he didn't start with a shit team, but on one with the best player in the league. There was very little pressure on him.
And clearly MJ was the better scorer, because he did it in a much more efficient manner. Kobe obviously has the 81 point game, but all of his 50 point games are nowhere near as impressive as Jordan's. If Kobe was the better scorer, wouldn't his best scoring seasons be better than Jordans??
Of course Kobe is one of the best ever, I'm impressed with how he played in playoffs. Definitely an amazing player
BUt Jordan was just some next shit, championship wise, and individual wise. Russel has him in titles, but RUssel wasn't at all dominate statistically...and how many teams were in the league then?
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NIk, you skew things often, and this is no different. Kobe has 5 titles...partly due to the fact he didn't start with a shit team, but on one with the best player in the league. There was very little pressure on him.
And clearly MJ was the better scorer, because he did it in a much more efficient manner. Kobe obviously has the 81 point game, but all of his 50 point games are nowhere near as impressive as Jordan's. If Kobe was the better scorer, wouldn't his best scoring seasons be better than Jordans??
Of course Kobe is one of the best ever, I'm impressed with how he played in playoffs. Definitely an amazing player
BUt Jordan was just some next shit, championship wise, and individual wise. Russel has him in titles, but RUssel wasn't at all dominate statistically...and how many teams were in the league then?
fact of the matter is, if Kobe was drafted to that Bulls team, he coulda averaged 40 ppg for all we know...when kobe was in his physical prime, he was playing alongside smush parker, kwame brown, and luke walton in the starting line-up...imagine what he could have done with a solid team built around him from age 25 on...as for being a more efficient scorer, u keep goin back to that. shaq was a much more efficient scorer than jordan, would u say he's better? no..shaq simply took easier shots. same goes for jordan..he took easier shots than kobe. was it cause he was a better scorer? no. we cant really say why, but we have to take into account that kobe has played in much different circumstances than jordan. jordan never even reached 70, let alone 80 points... and he has attempted more field goals in a single game than kobe has. in his physical prime, kobe outscored the mavs with 64 points in 3 quarters (then sat the 4th)..there are things kobe has done that jordan hasn't. but as i've always said, we will have 2 come back 2 this when kobe's career is over.
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This kid doesn't even realize what he's saying, that's how hard he's sucking Kobe's dick in these essays.
1. "MJ was handed the keys. Kobe had to work off the bench & wasn't expected to be much."
That just goes to show how much better MJ was from the start. Kobe found his role playing with the last big man to ever average 30 a season. Easily the most dominant big man of all-time, not counting Wilt playing with 6'7'' white dudes. MJ had nothing & turned it into six rings. There is no denying Shaq played a far bigger role. Shaq proved it going to Miami that Kobe needed Shaq more than Shaq needed Kobe. That's three rings right there. Then he dominated the with the Spurs banged up & literally nobody else coming close after stealing, at the time, one of the league's best big man. You yourself said they had the best roster in basketball. Who are you kidding?
2. "Kobe coulda averaged 40 on the Bulls, we don't know."
Homeboy's argument is REALLY, "if he was on the Bulls". SON SAID "IF". How about we just look at what was & not what your homosexual, biased imagination is thinking?
You're disgusting.
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You're disgusting.
bro, come out the fuckin closet already
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DODGE CITY LMAO.
This thread alone has already pushed you well into the lead as the biggest faggot in the family.
& you got this kid in the house..
(https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2255129433/305994_404197896257549_100000020255530_1549886_423889967_n.jpg)
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^lol..funny thing is, my brother would beat ur ass. aint no dodge city...teecee and mietek brought up valid points without actin like lil faggots, and they got a full response to everything they said. it's what i do best. fact of the matter is, i don't take u seriously, and i doubt if anyone on this website (outside of hack) ever did.
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You just said about three invalid things in two sentences, that's wild lmao.
& yeah, he probably would. That slap-style offense is overwhelming at times.
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jordan never even reached 70, let alone 80 points... and he has attempted more field goals in a single game than kobe has.
It's not like his career-high 69 points was so far behind 70. Not that it takes away from his legacy.
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jordan never even reached 70, let alone 80 points... and he has attempted more field goals in a single game than kobe has.
It's not like his career-high 69 points was so far behind 70. Not that it takes away from his legacy.
I feel ya... But it's still not 81. Point is, Kobe, in his physical prime, was the better overall scorer, hands down.
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I cant add anything to this thread other than NIK STAYS losing bigtime in the Kobe vs Jordan debate. Hop off Bryants balls already. Reading some of your posts in these type of threads are pure comedy.
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I cant add anything to this thread other than NIK STAYS losing bigtime in the Kobe vs Jordan debate. Hop off Bryants balls already. Reading some of your posts in these type of threads are pure comedy.
Right.. Cuz im the only person in the world who compares Kobe n Jordan. There's nothin outrageous bout what I said. U couldn't make any points, so u just came in here to add absolutely nothin to the discussion. Good job.
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Homeboy is in denial. Sad to watch.
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I cant add anything to this thread other than NIK STAYS losing bigtime in the Kobe vs Jordan debate. Hop off Bryants balls already. Reading some of your posts in these type of threads are pure comedy.
Right.. Cuz im the only person in the world who compares Kobe n Jordan. There's nothin outrageous bout what I said. U couldn't make any points, so u just came in here to add absolutely nothin to the discussion. Good job.
There is no discussion. Jordan is better than Kobe, end of story. Move on.
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I cant add anything to this thread other than NIK STAYS losing bigtime in the Kobe vs Jordan debate. Hop off Bryants balls already. Reading some of your posts in these type of threads are pure comedy.
Right.. Cuz im the only person in the world who compares Kobe n Jordan. There's nothin outrageous bout what I said. U couldn't make any points, so u just came in here to add absolutely nothin to the discussion. Good job.
There is no discussion. Jordan is better than Kobe, end of story. Move on.
Ok... In other news, Kareem is greater than Jordan. It's all subjective, buddy. That's my number 1 point.
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Ok... In other news, Kareem is greater than Jordan. It's all subjective, buddy. That's my number 1 point.
So if it's "all subjective," why do you always focus on Kobe being a "better overall scorer" and point out his 81-point game multiple times?
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Ok... In other news, Kareem is greater than Jordan. It's all subjective, buddy. That's my number 1 point.
So if it's "all subjective," why do you always focus on Kobe being a "better overall scorer" and point out his 81-point game multiple times?
Cuz that's what I believe
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One or two games doesn't supersede entire seasons And NIK when I mentioned efficiency , it's fine to compare Kobe and MJ cuz they played same position and have similar games. Bringing shaq into it doesn't make a lt of sense does it?
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One or two games doesn't supersede entire seasons And NIK when I mentioned efficiency , it's fine to compare Kobe and MJ cuz they played same position and have similar games. Bringing shaq into it doesn't make a lt of sense does it?
actually, it does make sense... kobe's range>jordan's range>shaq's range. efficiency lowers with range, therefore kobe's efficiency is naturally lower. if kobe had a career average of 1.7 threes per game ala jordan, he could be just as efficient, if not more. but kobe has a career average of 4 threes attempted per game (more than double), which will naturally lower efficiency. lets not forget, jordan also played in seasons where the three point line was closer...god knows how many points kobe woulda had in some of those games if the three point line was closer.
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Kobe had a great stroke from three...forget about the percentages, Kobe shoots a lot of percentage-busters, bail out threes with the shot-clock winding down, fadeaway threes over 2 defenders. he's not just a "catch-and-shoot wide-open threes" typa shooter, who are typically much higher in terms of percentage. when kobe had it going, he was unstoppable from behind the arc. not quite reggie miller or glen rice, but they were shooting specialists. kobe's an overall player, and his stroke has always been lightyears ahead of Jordan's..especially from long range.
I don't argue, that he does not have a great range and he didn't made a lot of tough 3-pointers. HE DOES and HE DID. He's a good 3-point shooter and he can drop a 3 from anywhere on the floor, but saying he's a GREAT 3-PT SHOOTER is a bit too much in my opinion, just like saying he was "his stroke has always been lightyears ahead of Jordan's", which is even more ridicolous. Also don't forget that MJ came into league without a 3-point shot in his arsenal.
As a young player, Michael didn't had a chance to play a lot of b-ball WITH a 3-point line as NCAA adopted one in 1980 - a year prior to his rookie season in North Carolina. Kobe on the other hand came into the league with a good abillity of shooting 3's. And like Michael, he worked on his 3-point shot, but when you look how much MJ improved his 3-point range, going from 18% in his rookie year to 33% durning a whole career - we should sppreciated it even more.
bro...i dont get it? it's widely accepted that NBA wings are much more athletic nowadays, and that the shift of talent has gone from bigs to perimeter players from when jordan was playing to now. yes, reggie miller, ol' joe dumars, clyde drexler, mitch richmond, young penny hardaway, etc. were all good. but they weren't amongst the top players in the league in those days. barkley, malone, ewing, shaq, etc. were...nowadays league is being ran by durant's, lebrons, wades, etc....if u dont get what i'm saying, that's pretty awkward.
Being more athletic dosent' mean your a better player, nor does not equal they are more talented my friend. What do you mean, they weren't amongst the top players in the league? Reggie was a top 5 shooting guard in the 90's and he was a big NBA star, even tho he played his whole career in a small market of Indianapollis. Remember his Spike Lee commercials? He was just as popular as people hated him for his killer instinct and late game play-off performances. Not to mention he is a future Hall Of Famer. Mitch Richmond was prolly one of the most underrated players in NBA history, Drexler was a 2nd best SG of the league and Penny Hardaway was one of the best young players at that time. From 1994 to 1996, the NBA was pushing him hard with all the commercials etc. People was calling him a mix between Magic and MJ - he played great, he was one of the leaders of that young Magic team and started to grab some of the "Shaq-spotlight" to himself, just like Kobe did durning Lakers first 3-peat. He was very much a like to Kobe (similar talent and a similar situation) - if his knee didn't get fucked up, who knows how his career would look like... same goes for Grant Hill. They both would prolly end up in Hall Of Fame one day..
i was just pointing out that it's dumb of u to compare wizard jordan to current kobe..that is all
It's also dumb for you to downplay Jordan's run with the Wizards, even tho they didn't reach the Play-Off's. I don't compare them, but saying MJ was MEDICIORE playing for Washington is stupid. Let me remind you some things:
He was 38, long past his prime, and was still playing at an All-Star level. Durning the first half of the 01-02 season, Wizards were up 26-21. Jordan was averaging 24,6 pts, 6,1 rbs and 5,2 as playing about 35 minutes per game. He was a LEGITIMADE MVP candidate before the All-Star Game, breaking the NBA all-time record for an oldest player to ever score 50 or more points, plus he had some GREAT games going head to head with some of the best NBA players in their athletic prime. He dropped 35 on prime KG guarding him most of the time, 32 on Paul Pierce & Antoine Walker in their best shape and 41 on young Shawn Marion. Then, his knee went all out and forced him to miss the key period of the season, causing Wizards to bury their Play-Off chances. Still, he was able to provide some GREAT games, playing wirtually on one leg, schooling young Miami Heat with 37pts and young Bucks team with 34.
If that's MEDICIORE by your standards, then I'm speechless.
Not to mention he shot 48% in the 41 home games for the Wizards in the 02-03 season and averaged 22 pts/per game on a home floor, going for 45 against Mashburn, dropping 43 on Jefferson & prime Kenyon Martin and 41 versus young Pacers team. JORDAN was BALLING durning his Wizards run - if it wasen't for the injury, his numbers for those 2 years would be even better and people wouldn't call it a FAILURE because he wasen't dunking on people left and right like he used to when he was 26. Even with the Wizards, he was still able to lead them to a 37-45 records twice, which was a 18 win improvement compared to the year prior to 2001-2002 season which was (19-63 in 2001).
first of all, jordan did guard kobe for some of the game, i was there...but that wasnt my point. the showdown was billed as the final kobe vs. jordan match-up. it's not about who he scored all the points on, it's about the fact the he showed jordan who the torch now belongs to. thats all i was gettin at.
It's also not about what the media portray to sell tickets for the game - don't forget about that. No doubt Kobe was the NBA's best player at that time but that wasen't the case of this subject.
and in my eyes, there is no GOAT...there are many different GOAT's, and Kobe is one of them. but if one wants to argue Jordan as GOAT, someone else can make a case for Kobe (especially if he wins any more rings). there could be cases made for Wilt, Magic, Russell, Kareem, etc. as well. but the fact of the matter is, EVERY player makes mistakes...there has never been a flawless player in this league. but the jordan brand/basketball media damn sure do go out of their way to make it seem like MJ was the flawless prototype of what a basketball player should be, and lots of simple-minded mufuckaz and casual basketball fans eat it up. thats all i'm really gettin at here.
Well, in certain way HE WAS "the flawless prototype of what a basketball player should be". He played with heart and passion, he was the best player on both ends of the floor, made all of his teamates better, won numerous championships and other prestigious & international basketball awards and made NBA Basketball into a global thing. Despite the fact, he was the most recognizable sportsman in the world, he was still practicing harder than 99% of his peers. THIS IS WHAT MADE HIM A LEGEND, AN ICON AND A STANDARD WHICH BASKETBALL PLAYER SHOULD BE MEASURE.
And that's why your favorite player Kobe pattered his game and his work ethic after him 8)
like i said, in terms of career accomplishments, kobe will never match jordan...but if accomplishments was what we went by, Bill Russell is GOAT. Jordan and Kobe were drafted into two completely different situations...Jordan came out of college and was handed the keys to a struggling franchise, where he could put up unlimited stats from day 1. He kept losing until he had the perfect team built around him. Kobe came out of high school to the greatest NBA franchise of all time, and wasnt expected to do much. He had to work his way up from coming off the bench, to taking over the franchise, and had to GRAB the keys and run with 'em...still, a lot of his prime years were wasted on sub-par teams, while Jordan's prime years were ALL on great teams. Kobe has shit on Jordan, as well. U wanna talk about who the better scorer is? ask Phil Jackson....nobody, not even Jordan, could score like Kobe could in his prime. Kobe has also had his share of game winners.. in fact, there was one season in which he had 8 game winners. Jordan never came close to that in 1 season. and you wanna say Kobe modeled his game after Jordan?...you're right, he took aspects of Jordan's game and built on em, just like Jordan did with Dr. J...but the bottom line is, Kobe is already regarded as one of the GOATs...when his career and all said and done, i think a lot of people will fall back and realize what the league had in its hands and took for granted. Kobe has never gotten the respect, the push from the league, the media love, the marketing, etc. that the Jordan brand has received...that plays a huge part in why there's a perception that there's a huge gap between Jordan and any other player.
See, there you go again twisting facts and lying just to prove your point. Kobe wasen't expected to do much? LOL. As far as I remember - he was compared to Jordan from the get go. He was being named "The Next Jordan" durning his second season in the league! How higher can the expectations be for an 18-year old kid coming straight outta High School? ::)
Like I said in my previous posts, Kobe prime years were from 07 to 10. Durning those years, his team situation was similar to Bulls 90-93, when MJ was at his absolute best. They had all the pieces around them (Pippen, Grant, Odom, Gasol, Bynum) and started to win after a series of Play-Off dissapointments. Now if your judging the prime of a player by STATS, then your right - Kobe wasted his best season on a bad team. So did Jordan in 1987, playing with bums like Dave Corzine and Pete Myers.
Well, let's ask Phil Jackson who was better. Didn't he said last year that "Kobe has patterned himself after Michael, and there are a lot of identical things there, but it’s one thing to hope to be like him, it’s another thing to be like him…. I’m with [ESPN's] Bill Simmons on this," he says. "We have to take Michael Jordan out of the equation. Stop comparing anyone to Michael Jordan. It’s just not fair. He was remarkable. Kobe’s in his own sphere.
He doesn’t shoot the same percentage [.455] as Michael [.497]. He has the same characteristics as Michael, but he’s not the same player. It takes nothing away from him — he’s a great player in his own right."
Phil also said: “I don’t think anybody will ever really touch what Michael has done for the game", while Tex Winter added "They both display tremendous reaction, quickness and jumping ability. Both have a good shooting touch. Some people say Kobe is a better shooter, but Michael really developed as a shooter as he went along. I don't know if Kobe is a better shooter than Michael was at his best."
In a lot of ways, Bryant is Jordan's equal as a post player, Winter said. Except for one critical element. "What's happened to Kobe and his post play - and he is a great post player - is that he's catching the ball just out of the lane and the defenders are forcing him out toward the wing."
See, the difference is that MJ was bigger and stronger - that's why he was able to hold his position in the post-up and create better shot opportunities for himself. Kobe hasen't been able to do that as good as MJ.
I'm not taking nothing away from Kobe Bryant - he is a great player. Still the best in the NBA today and the second best wing player ever. But he is not at the top of the list.
fact of the matter is, if Kobe was drafted to that Bulls team, he coulda averaged 40 ppg for all we know...when kobe was in his physical prime, he was playing alongside smush parker, kwame brown, and luke walton in the starting line-up...imagine what he could have done with a solid team built around him from age 25 on...as for being a more efficient scorer, u keep goin back to that. shaq was a much more efficient scorer than jordan, would u say he's better? no..shaq simply took easier shots. same goes for jordan..he took easier shots than kobe. was it cause he was a better scorer? no. we cant really say why, but we have to take into account that kobe has played in much different circumstances than jordan. jordan never even reached 70, let alone 80 points... and he has attempted more field goals in a single game than kobe has. in his physical prime, kobe outscored the mavs with 64 points in 3 quarters (then sat the 4th)..there are things kobe has done that jordan hasn't. but as i've always said, we will have 2 come back 2 this when kobe's career is over.
Since where another speculation of yours has become a well know and widely accepted FACT? ::)
He would NOT score 40ppg - there's NO CHANCE. The NBA was much different back then, plus he was a young, 17-year old kid that time. Talented - no doubt, but unprepaired physically for a rough and tought NBA of the mid 80's. I'll say he would average around 20 points per game tho, which still would be a great result.
there are things kobe has done that jordan hasn't - that argument can go both ways as there is A LOT of things that MJ did on a basketball court, that Kobe wasen't been able do duplicate. Yes, he scored 81 points and had a great game. But the team he played against was not so good to say at least. MJ on the other hand had 69 against Cavaliers, but also grabbed 18 rebounds, made 6 assists and 4 steals. He had at least couple games where he could surpass his own scoring record and plenty of games, where he could score 50+ but the game at the time was already won by the Bulls and there was no need for MJ to be on the floor. The "Labrador Smith Game" is a perfect example - Michael was 36 in the first half, than scored a loose 11 point in the 3rd and was out of the game, despite the fact he could go for at least 60 that night. Also don't forget he missed an entire season because of leg injury in 86 and even more years thanks to retirement. If he would play in 94 and 95, Bulls would prolly win 8 Finals in a row, not to mention Michael would surpass Jabbar in total points... he could had have over 40000 pts walking away as a Wizard.
Kobe, in his physical prime, was the better overall scorer, hands down.
That's a FACT? a STATEMENT? Or it's simply what you believe in?
actually, it does make sense... kobe's range>jordan's range>shaq's range. efficiency lowers with range, therefore kobe's efficiency is naturally lower. if kobe had a career average of 1.7 threes per game ala jordan, he could be just as efficient, if not more. but kobe has a career average of 4 threes attempted per game (more than double), which will naturally lower efficiency. lets not forget, jordan also played in seasons where the three point line was closer...god knows how many points kobe woulda had in some of those games if the three point line was closer.
Well, let's take away Kobe 3-point attempts and see if he can really be as efficient as Michael, if not more. The answer is NO - Jordan still beats him in FG% (48,2% to 49,7%). Now, let's be fair and take Michael's 3's out of the picture and he has a 51% FG attempts for his whole career.
So you see, you can't blame everything on RANGE and the fact that Kobe is joking WAAAY too many 3's. It's about players ability to create better shot opportunities for himself and having a better shot selection on your jumpshot. Michael Jordan has the 1# spot in terms of shooting percentage in a 50+ point game from the year 1986 to this day. He also has 2 others in Top 10 (5# and 8#) and 3 more in Top 25. Kobe on the other has 3 of the worst shooting 50-point games in terms of effciency in NBA history and his most efficient game comes in at #12.
Since 1986 - Kobe has 7 of the 15 worst and 10 of the 25 worst % 50-point games, Jordan on the other hand has only one game in the bottom 25.
Kobe played in the 96-97 and 97-98 season, when the 3-point line was closer and he was 37,5 and 34,1% from beyond the arc. Yes, his numbers would go up and I think he would average 40% shooting 3's, just like Jordan did in 95-96 season (42,7%). The reason Mike was so good in 3's durning the time when the line was closer is because it was one of his fav spots for shooting a jumpshot (it was just inside the old 3-point line) so he was really deadly from that area. So yea, I think Kobe would make a similar result judging from what I saw ;)
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http://www.youtube.com/v/0ePQKD9iBfU
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Kobe had a great stroke from three...forget about the percentages, Kobe shoots a lot of percentage-busters, bail out threes with the shot-clock winding down, fadeaway threes over 2 defenders. he's not just a "catch-and-shoot wide-open threes" typa shooter, who are typically much higher in terms of percentage. when kobe had it going, he was unstoppable from behind the arc. not quite reggie miller or glen rice, but they were shooting specialists. kobe's an overall player, and his stroke has always been lightyears ahead of Jordan's..especially from long range.
I don't argue, that he does not have a great range and he didn't made a lot of tough 3-pointers. HE DOES and HE DID. He's a good 3-point shooter and he can drop a 3 from anywhere on the floor, but saying he's a GREAT 3-PT SHOOTER is a bit too much in my opinion, just like saying he was "his stroke has always been lightyears ahead of Jordan's", which is even more ridicolous. Also don't forget that MJ came into league without a 3-point shot in his arsenal.
As a young player, Michael didn't had a chance to play a lot of b-ball WITH a 3-point line as NCAA adopted one in 1980 - a year prior to his rookie season in North Carolina. Kobe on the other hand came into the league with a good abillity of shooting 3's. And like Michael, he worked on his 3-point shot, but when you look how much MJ improved his 3-point range, going from 18% in his rookie year to 33% durning a whole career - we should sppreciated it even more.
i dont know what ur talkn about...jordan was mostly able to shoot wide-open, catch and shoot three-pointers. kobe is able to make fadeaway threes over 2 defenders. theyre not in the same league as far as long-distance shot, i dont know why you'd even argue this?
bro...i dont get it? it's widely accepted that NBA wings are much more athletic nowadays, and that the shift of talent has gone from bigs to perimeter players from when jordan was playing to now. yes, reggie miller, ol' joe dumars, clyde drexler, mitch richmond, young penny hardaway, etc. were all good. but they weren't amongst the top players in the league in those days. barkley, malone, ewing, shaq, etc. were...nowadays league is being ran by durant's, lebrons, wades, etc....if u dont get what i'm saying, that's pretty awkward.
Being more athletic dosent' mean your a better player, nor does not equal they are more talented my friend. What do you mean, they weren't amongst the top players in the league? Reggie was a top 5 shooting guard in the 90's and he was a big NBA star, even tho he played his whole career in a small market of Indianapollis. Remember his Spike Lee commercials? He was just as popular as people hated him for his killer instinct and late game play-off performances. Not to mention he is a future Hall Of Famer. Mitch Richmond was prolly one of the most underrated players in NBA history, Drexler was a 2nd best SG of the league and Penny Hardaway was one of the best young players at that time. From 1994 to 1996, the NBA was pushing him hard with all the commercials etc. People was calling him a mix between Magic and MJ - he played great, he was one of the leaders of that young Magic team and started to grab some of the "Shaq-spotlight" to himself, just like Kobe did durning Lakers first 3-peat. He was very much a like to Kobe (similar talent and a similar situation) - if his knee didn't get fucked up, who knows how his career would look like... same goes for Grant Hill. They both would prolly end up in Hall Of Fame one day..
lmao...u still dont get what im sayin? come on, buddy, this is becoming chamesque. THE LEAGUE WAS AN INSIDE-OUT LEAGUE BACK IN JORDANS DAY. IT WAS A BIG DOMINANT LEAGUE, WHEREAS TODAY, THE LEAGUE IS PERIMETER-DOMINANT. SMFH
i was just pointing out that it's dumb of u to compare wizard jordan to current kobe..that is all
It's also dumb for you to downplay Jordan's run with the Wizards, even tho they didn't reach the Play-Off's. I don't compare them, but saying MJ was MEDICIORE playing for Washington is stupid. Let me remind you some things:
He was 38, long past his prime, and was still playing at an All-Star level. Durning the first half of the 01-02 season, Wizards were up 26-21. Jordan was averaging 24,6 pts, 6,1 rbs and 5,2 as playing about 35 minutes per game. He was a LEGITIMADE MVP candidate before the All-Star Game, breaking the NBA all-time record for an oldest player to ever score 50 or more points, plus he had some GREAT games going head to head with some of the best NBA players in their athletic prime. He dropped 35 on prime KG guarding him most of the time, 32 on Paul Pierce & Antoine Walker in their best shape and 41 on young Shawn Marion. Then, his knee went all out and forced him to miss the key period of the season, causing Wizards to bury their Play-Off chances. Still, he was able to provide some GREAT games, playing wirtually on one leg, schooling young Miami Heat with 37pts and young Bucks team with 34.
If that's MEDICIORE by your standards, then I'm speechless.
Not to mention he shot 48% in the 41 home games for the Wizards in the 02-03 season and averaged 22 pts/per game on a home floor, going for 45 against Mashburn, dropping 43 on Jefferson & prime Kenyon Martin and 41 versus young Pacers team. JORDAN was BALLING durning his Wizards run - if it wasen't for the injury, his numbers for those 2 years would be even better and people wouldn't call it a FAILURE because he wasen't dunking on people left and right like he used to when he was 26. Even with the Wizards, he was still able to lead them to a 37-45 records twice, which was a 18 win improvement compared to the year prior to 2001-2002 season which was (19-63 in 2001).
the point i'm making is that wizard jordan is not comparable to kobe...by any stretch. thats all i'm really gettin at. to me, those wizard seasons by jordan weren't bad, but they definitely weren't good. if he was your every day player, yea, it would be good. but for michael jordan, those seasons did nothing but taint his legacy.
and in my eyes, there is no GOAT...there are many different GOAT's, and Kobe is one of them. but if one wants to argue Jordan as GOAT, someone else can make a case for Kobe (especially if he wins any more rings). there could be cases made for Wilt, Magic, Russell, Kareem, etc. as well. but the fact of the matter is, EVERY player makes mistakes...there has never been a flawless player in this league. but the jordan brand/basketball media damn sure do go out of their way to make it seem like MJ was the flawless prototype of what a basketball player should be, and lots of simple-minded mufuckaz and casual basketball fans eat it up. thats all i'm really gettin at here.
Well, in certain way HE WAS "the flawless prototype of what a basketball player should be". He played with heart and passion, he was the best player on both ends of the floor, made all of his teamates better, won numerous championships and other prestigious & international basketball awards and made NBA Basketball into a global thing. Despite the fact, he was the most recognizable sportsman in the world, he was still practicing harder than 99% of his peers. THIS IS WHAT MADE HIM A LEGEND, AN ICON AND A STANDARD WHICH BASKETBALL PLAYER SHOULD BE MEASURE.
And that's why your favorite player Kobe pattered his game and his work ethic after him 8)
yup...he was on top of shit, no doubt. but the media definitely exaggerated and helped make him into a supernatural amongst naturals, when truth be told, there have been many greats on his level in basketball throughout the sports history
like i said, in terms of career accomplishments, kobe will never match jordan...but if accomplishments was what we went by, Bill Russell is GOAT. Jordan and Kobe were drafted into two completely different situations...Jordan came out of college and was handed the keys to a struggling franchise, where he could put up unlimited stats from day 1. He kept losing until he had the perfect team built around him. Kobe came out of high school to the greatest NBA franchise of all time, and wasnt expected to do much. He had to work his way up from coming off the bench, to taking over the franchise, and had to GRAB the keys and run with 'em...still, a lot of his prime years were wasted on sub-par teams, while Jordan's prime years were ALL on great teams. Kobe has shit on Jordan, as well. U wanna talk about who the better scorer is? ask Phil Jackson....nobody, not even Jordan, could score like Kobe could in his prime. Kobe has also had his share of game winners.. in fact, there was one season in which he had 8 game winners. Jordan never came close to that in 1 season. and you wanna say Kobe modeled his game after Jordan?...you're right, he took aspects of Jordan's game and built on em, just like Jordan did with Dr. J...but the bottom line is, Kobe is already regarded as one of the GOATs...when his career and all said and done, i think a lot of people will fall back and realize what the league had in its hands and took for granted. Kobe has never gotten the respect, the push from the league, the media love, the marketing, etc. that the Jordan brand has received...that plays a huge part in why there's a perception that there's a huge gap between Jordan and any other player.
See, there you go again twisting facts and lying just to prove your point. Kobe wasen't expected to do much? LOL. As far as I remember - he was compared to Jordan from the get go. He was being named "The Next Jordan" durning his second season in the league! How higher can the expectations be for an 18-year old kid coming straight outta High School? ::)
Like I said in my previous posts, Kobe prime years were from 07 to 10. Durning those years, his team situation was similar to Bulls 90-93, when MJ was at his absolute best. They had all the pieces around them (Pippen, Grant, Odom, Gasol, Bynum) and started to win after a series of Play-Off dissapointments. Now if your judging the prime of a player, then your right - Kobe wasted his best season on a bad team. So did Jordan in 1987, playing with bums like Dave Corzine and Pete Myers.
Well, let's ask Phil Jackson who was better. Didn't he said last year that "Kobe has patterned himself after Michael, and there are a lot of identical things there, but it’s one thing to hope to be like him, it’s another thing to be like him…. I’m with [ESPN's] Bill Simmons on this," he says. "We have to take Michael Jordan out of the equation. Stop comparing anyone to Michael Jordan. It’s just not fair. He was remarkable. Kobe’s in his own sphere.
He doesn’t shoot the same percentage [.455] as Michael [.497]. He has the same characteristics as Michael, but he’s not the same player. It takes nothing away from him — he’s a great player in his own right."
Phil also said: “I don’t think anybody will ever really touch what Michael has done for the game", while Tex Winter added "They both display tremendous reaction, quickness and jumping ability. Both have a good shooting touch. Some people say Kobe is a better shooter, but Michael really developed as a shooter as he went along. I don't know if Kobe is a better shooter than Michael was at his best."
In a lot of ways, Bryant is Jordan's equal as a post player, Winter said. Except for one critical element. "What's happened to Kobe and his post play - and he is a great post player - is that he's catching the ball just out of the lane and the defenders are forcing him out toward the wing."
See, the difference is that MJ was bigger and stronger - that's why he was able to hold his position in the post-up and create better shot opportunities for himself. Kobe hasen't been able to do that as good as MJ.
I'm not taking nothing away from Kobe Bryant - he is a great player. Still the best in the NBA today and the second best wing player ever. But he is not at the top of the list.
Phil Jackson also said that Kobe was more talented then Jordan and that Jordan's biggest advantage was that he had bigger hands, while Kobe's the better scorer, ball-handler, and shooter. He basically has sided with both Jordan and Kobe in the argument, on different occasions. and no, Kobe wasn't expected to be one of the greats when he was drafted 13th overall by the Hornets, and traded for Vlade Divac...he was a project, and a back-up. He built his way up as opposed to being handed an entire franchise. thats why i say its two different scenarios...jordan had time to build his individual stats and accolades when he first came in the league, while Kobe was just tryna build his way up to starting status, and then, eventually, being considered the franchise player. two completely different positions coming into the NBA.
fact of the matter is, if Kobe was drafted to that Bulls team, he coulda averaged 40 ppg for all we know...when kobe was in his physical prime, he was playing alongside smush parker, kwame brown, and luke walton in the starting line-up...imagine what he could have done with a solid team built around him from age 25 on...as for being a more efficient scorer, u keep goin back to that. shaq was a much more efficient scorer than jordan, would u say he's better? no..shaq simply took easier shots. same goes for jordan..he took easier shots than kobe. was it cause he was a better scorer? no. we cant really say why, but we have to take into account that kobe has played in much different circumstances than jordan. jordan never even reached 70, let alone 80 points... and he has attempted more field goals in a single game than kobe has. in his physical prime, kobe outscored the mavs with 64 points in 3 quarters (then sat the 4th)..there are things kobe has done that jordan hasn't. but as i've always said, we will have 2 come back 2 this when kobe's career is over.
Since where another speculation of yours has become a well know and widely accepted FACT? ::)
He would NOT score 40ppg - there's NO CHANCE. The NBA was much different back then, plus he was a young, 17-year old kid that time. Talented - no doubt, but unprepaired physically for a rough and tought NBA of the mid 80's. I'll say he would average around 20 points per game tho, which still would be a great result.
there are things kobe has done that jordan hasn't - that argument can go both ways as there is A LOT of things that MJ did on a basketball court, that Kobe wasen't been able do duplicate. Yes, he scored 81 points and had a great game. But the team he played against was not so good to say at least. MJ on the other hand had 69 against Cavaliers, but also grabbed 18 rebounds, made 6 assists and 4 steals. He had at least couple games where he could surpass his own scoring record and plenty of games, where he could score 50+ but the game at the time was already won by the Bulls and there was no need for MJ to be on the floor. The "Labrador Smith Game" is a perfect example - Michael was 36 in the first half, than scored a loose 11 point in the 3rd and was out of the game, despite the fact he could go for at least 60 that night. Also don't forget he missed an entire season because of leg injury in 86 and even more years thanks to retirement. If he would play in 94 and 95, Bulls would prolly win 8 Finals in a row, not to mention Michael would surpass Jabbar in total points... he could had have over 40000 pts walking away as a Wizard.
and wasnt the 69 point jordan game in overtime? i cant really remember for sure, but kobe scored 81 in regulation...imagine how much that coulda been had the game gone into overtime. :o
Kobe, in his physical prime, was the better overall scorer, hands down.
That's a FACT? a STATEMENT? Or it's simply what you believe in?
thats my valid opinion
actually, it does make sense... kobe's range>jordan's range>shaq's range. efficiency lowers with range, therefore kobe's efficiency is naturally lower. if kobe had a career average of 1.7 threes per game ala jordan, he could be just as efficient, if not more. but kobe has a career average of 4 threes attempted per game (more than double), which will naturally lower efficiency. lets not forget, jordan also played in seasons where the three point line was closer...god knows how many points kobe woulda had in some of those games if the three point line was closer.
Well, let's take away Kobe 3-point attempts and see if he can really be as efficient as Michael, if not more. The answer is NO - Jordan still beats him in FG% (48,2% to 49,7%). Now, let's be fair and take Michael's 3's out of the picture and he has a 51% FG attempts for his whole career.
So you see, you can't blame everything on RANGE and the fact that Kobe is joking WAAAY too many 3's. It's about players ability to create better shot opportunities for himself and having a better shot selection on your jumpshot. Michael Jordan has the 1# spot in terms of shooting percentage in a 50+ point game from the year 1986 to this day. He also has 2 others in Top 10 (5# and 8#) and 3 more in Top 25. Kobe on the other has 3 of the worst shooting 50-point games in terms of effciency in NBA history and his most efficient game comes in at #12.
Since 1986 - Kobe has 7 of the 15 worst and 10 of the 25 worst % 50-point games, Jordan on the other hand has only one game in the bottom 25.
Kobe played in the 96-97 and 97-98 season, when the 3-point line was closer and he was 37,5 and 34,1% from beyond the arc. Yes, his numbers would go up and I think he would average 40% shooting 3's, just like Jordan did in 95-96 season (42,7%). The reason Mike was so good in 3's durning the time when the line was closer is because it was one of his fav spots for shooting a jumpshot (it was just inside the old 3-point line) so he was really deadly from that area. So yea, I think Kobe would make a similar result judging from what I saw ;)
actually, kobe never played when the three point line was closer..so i dunno where u get ur distorted information from, but a lot of kobe's attempts are right inside the three point line. in fact, his signature j is from right around 20-22 feet out. i can all but guarantee that kobe would have some even greater scoring performances and broken even more of jordan's records had he played with a closer three point line.
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Kobe wasn't expected to be one of the greats when he was drafted 13th overall by the Hornets, and traded for Vlade Divac...he was a project, and a back-up. He built his way up as opposed to being handed an entire franchise. thats why i say its two different scenarios...jordan had time to build his individual stats and accolades when he first came in the league, while Kobe was just tryna build his way up to starting status, and then, eventually, being considered the franchise player. two completely different positions coming into the NBA.
cmon nigga, youre acting as if kobe was just your regular nigga getting traded for bum ass divac. back in the day it wasnt normal to come straight out of highschool as some uneducated ass nigga, plus kobe was a diva and bitch even back then and told other teams he will only play for the lakers like the pretentious bitch he was and still is. nigga was voted to be an all-star when he was basically still on the bench. sick shit.
and wasnt the 69 point jordan game in overtime? i cant really remember for sure, but kobe scored 81 in regulation...imagine how much that coulda been had the game gone into overtime.
don't get all fake-excited lmfao. you know god damn well that the main reason why kobe scored so much was that raptors sucked major ass and he just wanted to score for the sake of scoring, not for the sake of winning the game. if the opposing team had been good enough to force OT, no way he would have scored that easily. so basically, OT is more impressive, as it implies that the other team was worth a shit.
if the reduce scoring to plain shooting ability and ignore vital parts such as shot selection and bullying oneself into position, then yes, kobe was better. but that's not what scoring really is. if scoring was just about having stroke and range along with the ability to slash and hit FTs, durant could eclipse kobe as "the greatest scorer of all-time" handily. and you and i know you don't reckon that's gonna happen now do you..?
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Kobe wasn't expected to be one of the greats when he was drafted 13th overall by the Hornets, and traded for Vlade Divac...he was a project, and a back-up. He built his way up as opposed to being handed an entire franchise. thats why i say its two different scenarios...jordan had time to build his individual stats and accolades when he first came in the league, while Kobe was just tryna build his way up to starting status, and then, eventually, being considered the franchise player. two completely different positions coming into the NBA.
cmon nigga, youre acting as if kobe was just your regular nigga getting traded for bum ass divac. back in the day it wasnt normal to come straight out of highschool as some uneducated ass nigga, plus kobe was a diva and bitch even back then and told other teams he will only play for the lakers like the pretentious bitch he was and still is. nigga was voted to be an all-star when he was basically still on the bench. sick shit.
and wasnt the 69 point jordan game in overtime? i cant really remember for sure, but kobe scored 81 in regulation...imagine how much that coulda been had the game gone into overtime.
don't get all fake-excited lmfao. you know god damn well that the main reason why kobe scored so much was that raptors sucked major ass and he just wanted to score for the sake of scoring, not for the sake of winning the game. if the opposing team had been good enough to force OT, no way he would have scored that easily. so basically, OT is more impressive, as it implies that the other team was worth a shit.
if the reduce scoring to plain shooting ability and ignore vital parts such as shot selection and bullying oneself into position, then yes, kobe was better. but that's not what scoring really is. if scoring was just about having stroke and range along with the ability to slash and hit FTs, durant could eclipse kobe as "the greatest scorer of all-time" handily. and you and i know you don't reckon that's gonna happen now do you..?
lmao...shows how much u know. the raptors were beating the lakers well into the 3rd quarter in that game, and the game went down to the wire. if it didn't, phil woulda sat kobe, like he did in the 4th quarter of the game where he score 64 points in 3 quarters vs the mavs.
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Kobe wasn't expected to be one of the greats when he was drafted 13th overall by the Hornets, and traded for Vlade Divac...he was a project, and a back-up. He built his way up as opposed to being handed an entire franchise. thats why i say its two different scenarios...jordan had time to build his individual stats and accolades when he first came in the league, while Kobe was just tryna build his way up to starting status, and then, eventually, being considered the franchise player. two completely different positions coming into the NBA.
cmon nigga, youre acting as if kobe was just your regular nigga getting traded for bum ass divac. back in the day it wasnt normal to come straight out of highschool as some uneducated ass nigga, plus kobe was a diva and bitch even back then and told other teams he will only play for the lakers like the pretentious bitch he was and still is. nigga was voted to be an all-star when he was basically still on the bench. sick shit.
and wasnt the 69 point jordan game in overtime? i cant really remember for sure, but kobe scored 81 in regulation...imagine how much that coulda been had the game gone into overtime.
don't get all fake-excited lmfao. you know god damn well that the main reason why kobe scored so much was that raptors sucked major ass and he just wanted to score for the sake of scoring, not for the sake of winning the game. if the opposing team had been good enough to force OT, no way he would have scored that easily. so basically, OT is more impressive, as it implies that the other team was worth a shit.
if the reduce scoring to plain shooting ability and ignore vital parts such as shot selection and bullying oneself into position, then yes, kobe was better. but that's not what scoring really is. if scoring was just about having stroke and range along with the ability to slash and hit FTs, durant could eclipse kobe as "the greatest scorer of all-time" handily. and you and i know you don't reckon that's gonna happen now do you..?
lmao...shows how much u know. the raptors were beating the lakers well into the 3rd quarter in that game, and the game went down to the wire. if it didn't, phil woulda sat kobe, like he did in the 4th quarter of the game where he score 64 points in 3 quarters vs the mavs.
nigga, i trash ya ass regarding several aspects and you nitpick the one thing you have to say shit about and pretend it's all about that, like that would dismiss anything else including shit that isn't even related. skip bayless status.
regardless, a game won by 18 points is NOT EQUIVALENT TO AN OT GAME AGAINST A MUCH MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE OPPONENT, FUCK. down the wire my ass. towards the end of the game, the fat lady sung big time. raptors didn't bother to D. yet kobe shot like a motherfucker when he had no business to be in the game. disrespectful shit. if he had done such a thing against a proud team with thugs on, he would have been smacked hard for it.
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Kobe wasn't expected to be one of the greats when he was drafted 13th overall by the Hornets, and traded for Vlade Divac...he was a project, and a back-up. He built his way up as opposed to being handed an entire franchise. thats why i say its two different scenarios...jordan had time to build his individual stats and accolades when he first came in the league, while Kobe was just tryna build his way up to starting status, and then, eventually, being considered the franchise player. two completely different positions coming into the NBA.
cmon nigga, youre acting as if kobe was just your regular nigga getting traded for bum ass divac. back in the day it wasnt normal to come straight out of highschool as some uneducated ass nigga, plus kobe was a diva and bitch even back then and told other teams he will only play for the lakers like the pretentious bitch he was and still is. nigga was voted to be an all-star when he was basically still on the bench. sick shit.
and wasnt the 69 point jordan game in overtime? i cant really remember for sure, but kobe scored 81 in regulation...imagine how much that coulda been had the game gone into overtime.
don't get all fake-excited lmfao. you know god damn well that the main reason why kobe scored so much was that raptors sucked major ass and he just wanted to score for the sake of scoring, not for the sake of winning the game. if the opposing team had been good enough to force OT, no way he would have scored that easily. so basically, OT is more impressive, as it implies that the other team was worth a shit.
if the reduce scoring to plain shooting ability and ignore vital parts such as shot selection and bullying oneself into position, then yes, kobe was better. but that's not what scoring really is. if scoring was just about having stroke and range along with the ability to slash and hit FTs, durant could eclipse kobe as "the greatest scorer of all-time" handily. and you and i know you don't reckon that's gonna happen now do you..?
lmao...shows how much u know. the raptors were beating the lakers well into the 3rd quarter in that game, and the game went down to the wire. if it didn't, phil woulda sat kobe, like he did in the 4th quarter of the game where he score 64 points in 3 quarters vs the mavs.
nigga, i trash ya ass regarding several aspects and you nitpick the one thing you have to say shit about and pretend it's all about that, like that would dismiss anything else including shit that isn't even related. skip bayless status.
regardless, a game won by 18 points is NOT EQUIVALENT TO AN OT GAME AGAINST A MUCH MUCH MORE COMPETITIVE OPPONENT, FUCK. down the wire my ass. towards the end of the game, the fat lady sung big time. raptors didn't bother to D. yet kobe shot like a motherfucker when he had no business to be in the game. disrespectful shit. if he had done such a thing against a proud team with thugs on, he would have been smacked hard for it.
obviously, u didnt watch the game...the big lead came in the last 2 minutes, when kobe sat. and most of your points are moot, so they dont really require a response. like u claimin jordan's shot selection was better, when i already addressed that. 1.kobe doesnt have a team built around him like jordan did, so he doesnt have the same luxuries as far as shot selection. 2.players with more range will take tougher shots, hence the appearance of a lower shot selection. would u say shaq had a much better shot selection than jordan? like i said, i already addressed these points. not my fault if u missed it the first time around.
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obviously, u didnt watch the game...the big lead came in the last 2 minutes, when kobe sat. and most of your points are moot, so they dont really require a response. like u claimin jordan's shot selection was better, when i already addressed that. 1.kobe doesnt have a team built around him like jordan did, so he doesnt have the same luxuries as far as shot selection. 2.players with more range will take tougher shots, hence the appearance of a lower shot selection. would u say shaq had a much better shot selection than jordan? like i said, i already addressed these points. not my fault if u missed it the first time around.
You still blaming everything on RANGE, yet even if you exclude Kobe 3-point shots - he still has LOWER FG% than Jordan. What does that tell you? That his efficiency ain't quite as good as Jordan's. RANGE is one thing, SHOT SELECTION is another. Michael was more athletic than Kobe, he had bigger body and was stronger - that's why he was able to hold his position in the post and create better shot opportunities for himself, while Kobe who is obviously not that strong physically, is forced by the defenders to go outside and jack toughter shots. THAT'S ONE.
Another thing is, using his teamates to create better shots for yourself. They both played under the same system and MJ was more efficient under Triangle Offense and scored a lot easier, because he led The Triangle Offense work for him, while Kobe just continues to take toughter shots as his teammates will just stand around and watch him do that. Kobe was also very passive without the ball most of the time in Triangle and it seems to me that he never learn or been willing to learn how to make the offense and feeding his teamates work for him. Jordan started his career that way, but he evetually figured it out throughout Phil and Tex - that's why he could scored a lot easier than Kobe.
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obviously, u didnt watch the game...the big lead came in the last 2 minutes, when kobe sat. and most of your points are moot, so they dont really require a response. like u claimin jordan's shot selection was better, when i already addressed that. 1.kobe doesnt have a team built around him like jordan did, so he doesnt have the same luxuries as far as shot selection. 2.players with more range will take tougher shots, hence the appearance of a lower shot selection. would u say shaq had a much better shot selection than jordan? like i said, i already addressed these points. not my fault if u missed it the first time around.
You still blaming everything on RANGE, yet even if you exclude Kobe 3-point shots - he still has LOWER FG% than Jordan. What does that tell you? That his efficiency ain't quite as good as Jordan's. RANGE is one thing, SHOT SELECTION is another. Michael was more athletic than Kobe, he had bigger body and was stronger - that's why he was able to hold his position in the post and create better shot opportunities for himself, while Kobe who is obviously not that strong physically, is forced by the defenders to go outside and jack toughter shots. THAT'S ONE.
Another thing is, using his teamates to create better shots for yourself. They both played under the same system and MJ was more efficient under Triangle Offense and scored a lot easier, because he led The Triangle Offense work for him, while Kobe just continues to take toughter shots as his teammates will just stand around and watch him do that. Kobe was also very passive without the ball most of the time in Triangle and it seems to me that he never learn or been willing to learn how to make the offense and feeding his teamates work for him. Jordan started his career that way, but he evetually figured it out throughout Phil and Tex - that's why he could scored a lot easier than Kobe.
Range doesn't only include three point field goals.. It also includes shots right inside the three point line. Jordan's signature shot was from about 15-17 feet, while Kobe's signature pull up is from right inside the three point line. And Jordan was not bigger than Kobe lol, he only has bigger hands. Let's not forget, Kobe has great post skills, as well, and probably even better footwork than Jordan.
And again, Kobe has never had the luxury of playing with a facilitator/point forward like Pippen on the perimeter. Do you realize that the best point guard Kobe has played with was Derek fisher, and the best small forward was an out-of-prime glen rice. Not exactly the best players to help create shots for u, if u know what I mean. Pippen was a playmaker. Kobe never had the opportunity to play with someone like Pippen. How u fail to realize this is not surprising, but still weakens your credibility.
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Range doesn't only include three point field goals.. It also includes shots right inside the three point line. Jordan's signature shot was from about 15-17 feet, while Kobe's signature pull up is from right inside the three point line. And Jordan was not bigger than Kobe lol, he only has bigger hands. Let's not forget, Kobe has great post skills, as well, and probably even better footwork than Jordan.
And again, Kobe has never had the luxury of playing with a facilitator/point forward like Pippen on the perimeter. Do you realize that the best point guard Kobe has played with was Derek fisher, and the best small forward was an out-of-prime glen rice. Not exactly the best players to help create shots for u, if u know what I mean. Pippen was a playmaker. Kobe never had the opportunity to play with someone like Pippen. How u fail to realize this is not surprising, but still weakens your credibility.
I've said in my first post in this topic QUOTE: "Yes, Kobe don't got a player like Pippen around him..." - your just too blind defending Kobe all the time to notice this ::)
You are so one-sided in this "debate", it's getting more and more ridiculous. Your pointing out that Phil Jackson said "Kobe has better basketball skills than Jordan" as a favor to your arguement, yet you fail to mention he said in that same interview QUOTE: "There are some things that Michael Jordan had, that Kobe Bryant dosen't have. HE HAS BIGGER BODY, HE IS STRONGER".
So saying "he only has bigger hands" is delusional at least.
Never in my post did I've said Kobe Bryany isin't a great post player, neither he does not have great post skills. He IS and He DOES, as I mentioned before. But, and I've said this on many occasions now - Michael was a better post-up player, because he was able to hold his position in the post due to his higher athleticism. Kobe on the other hand is often forced by his defenders outside and can't control his post-up position as efficient as MJ.
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Range doesn't only include three point field goals.. It also includes shots right inside the three point line. Jordan's signature shot was from about 15-17 feet, while Kobe's signature pull up is from right inside the three point line. And Jordan was not bigger than Kobe lol, he only has bigger hands. Let's not forget, Kobe has great post skills, as well, and probably even better footwork than Jordan.
And again, Kobe has never had the luxury of playing with a facilitator/point forward like Pippen on the perimeter. Do you realize that the best point guard Kobe has played with was Derek fisher, and the best small forward was an out-of-prime glen rice. Not exactly the best players to help create shots for u, if u know what I mean. Pippen was a playmaker. Kobe never had the opportunity to play with someone like Pippen. How u fail to realize this is not surprising, but still weakens your credibility.
I've said in my first post in this topic QUOTE: "Yes, Kobe don't got a player like Pippen around him..." - your just too blind defending Kobe all the time to notice this ::)
You are so one-sided in this "debate", it's getting more and more ridiculous. Your pointing out that Phil Jackson said "Kobe has better basketball skills than Jordan" as a favor to your arguement, yet you fail to mention he said in that same interview QUOTE: "There are some things that Michael Jordan had, that Kobe Bryant dosen't have. HE HAS BIGGER BODY, HE IS STRONGER".
So saying "he only has bigger hands" is delusional at least.
Never in my post did I've said Kobe Bryany isin't a great post player, neither he does not have great post skills. He IS and He DOES, as I mentioned before. But, and I've said this on many occasions now - Michael was a better post-up player, because he was able to hold his position in the post due to his higher athleticism. Kobe on the other hand is often forced by his defenders outside and can't control his post-up position as efficient as MJ.
then if u know that kobe has never played with a facilitator like pippen, then why do u keep pointing out how jordan got shots easier?...well, shit, OF COURSE he's gunna get better looks when he played alongside the greatest point forward of all time.
as for phil jackson, like i said, he flip-flops on the answer all time time...never has he flat out said "jordan>kobe" or "kobe>jordan", which just goes to show that there IS a comparison. if there wasn't, phil woulda came out a long time ago and said it. but thats not what u hear...instead, u get quotes from him saying "kobe had the better shot and offensive skills, but jordan was stronger" or what not. cuz he doesn't wanna come straight out and put one over the other...thats the whole point of what im gettin at. fact of the matter is, both have different advantages in certain areas. as far as individual accolades go, it will be impossible for kobe to ever match jordan. as far as pure basketball skill goes, kobe has already, at the very least, matched jordan. if kobe wins more rings, there will undeniably be an everlasting debate on GOAT. shit, i aint faultin u if u say magic johnson or lary bird. to me, GOAT is all subjective and can go many ways...but for those who say Kobe aint in the discussion, you're only foolin urself.