West Coast Connection Forum
DUBCC - Tha Connection => West Coast Classics => Topic started by: MOBNigga06 on October 30, 2013, 09:25:16 PM
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So, in my other thread about Daz's AEOM beats, I think we have learned some important things about why a producer's work during the Death Row era can be so vastly superior to that producer's work after Death Row.
Consider Skandalouz: you got Pac and Nate with the bomb vocals. Daz on the boards. Quik on the Rhodes piano. Cornelius Mims on guitar. Michel'le vocalizing as well, apparently. Soopafly and other people in the studio getting involved. And that is how you get Skandalouz, a so-called "Daz Dilinger" beat from 1996.
Daz wrote in my other thread regarding whether his AEOM beats were actually Quik beats: "thats false only thing quik did was mixx my music thats it but its all DAZ"
Clearly, the claim is not really true, the beat is not "all DAZ." Now, if we listen to a Daz Dillinger beat from circa 2010, we will hear the difference, because the recent beats are literally "all DAZ": they're made by Daz sitting at his computer pressing buttons. There's no live instrumentation, no Quik mixing, just a guy at his computer - the difference is obvious.
This is probably the same reason why Darryl "Big D" Harper and Tyrone "Hurt-M-Badd" Wrice produced some of the most brilliant beats in the history of rap while at Death Row in 1996, yet have not produced anything of note since Death Row. We think of them as the producers of Makaveli, but really, they were just available and were listening to what Pac wanted, and were commanding troops of people who were in those studios, with unlimited studio time, tons of talent around at all time, etc. The money and talent circulating around Can-Am studios in 1996 is what really made so much of this high quality music possible.
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I have to side with Daz on this. It's not about who does the beat, it's about who produces.
And I don't think Big D and Hurt Em Bad "produced the most brilliant beats in the history of rap". I think they were strong tracks that were blessed by a great artist.
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I have to side with Daz on this. It's not about who does the beat, it's about who produces.
And I don't think Big D and Hurt Em Bad "produced the most brilliant beats in the history of rap". I think they were strong tracks that were blessed by a great artist.
Well, in my opinion, Hold Ya Head is one of the best produced rap songs of all time. It's up there with the best tracks from DJ Quik. And it makes me wonder: how can Tyrone Wrice produce Hold Ya Head (and sing its chorus!) and then go on to produce nothing significant for the rest of his career?
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Daz wrote in my other thread regarding whether his AEOM beats were actually Quik beats: "thats false only thing quik did was mixx my music thats it but its all DAZ"
Clearly, the claim is not really true, the beat is not "all DAZ." Now, if we listen to a Daz Dillinger beat from circa 2010, we will hear the difference, because the recent beats are literally "all DAZ": they're made by Daz sitting at his computer pressing buttons. There's no live instrumentation, no Quik mixing, just a guy at his computer - the difference is obvious.
But what you need to remember is back in the Deathrow days the studio was actually a STUDIO! You have live instruments, everything was hardware you had all the 1000's of dollars worth of equipment etc.
In today's world a studio is just a computer with Logic/Pro-tools/Cubase/Ableton etc, a midi keyboard, a sound card and a whole lot of soft synth VST's. So yes, the sound difference is going to be a hell of a lot different. Especially as Daz is independent and does not have the luxury of having a record labels fully equipped million dollar studio to make beats in
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it's true that Death Row had good session musicians around, as well as engineers, they had all the resources around.
I don't think Daz fell off as hard as people say he did production wise, it's just that on Death Row he was part of a movement that was fresh and innovative, G-Funk and Gangsta Rap were at their peak and Daz had developed a kinda unique style with heavy bass. After that he just tried to recreate this formula and quickly ran out of things to say, people kept pressuring him to go back to his glory days so he tried to recreate that formula, but the game had changed since and there were other producers doing better things, but I think the main thing lacking from Daz was budget and the ability to evolve. He did try to modernize his sound on Public Enemiez and the production on that album is very good, it's just that Daz is a bit boring and uninspired rapwise.
We saw that, as soon as he worked with Mike Dean, a legendary producer who happens to be a musician as well as an engineer, he continued putting out dope shit : Dillinger & Young Gotti is an excellent album, This Is The Life I Lead is very solid production wise and has some strong tracks. It's just that Daz was independent, so he didn't have the budget to promote the album properly, and still sold 200.000 albums of Dilli & Gotti. Who knows, with a major-backed promotion, and in the wake of the Up in Smoke Tour and 2001 where there was a west coast resurgence somehow (with tha eastsidaz goin platinum, restless goin platinum), they could have maybe gone gold with such a project. musically wise it was dope nonetheless.
Then, his I Got Love in These Streetz E.P., there's no credits as to who did what on that album, but I think Mike Dean co-produced "Only Move 4 Tha Money", since he co-produced songs on Makaveli & Dillinger (First 2 Bomb), that projects had some dope shit too : I Can't Spend The Night, When The Feeling is Right, I Got Love In These Streetz (love the beat) and his Love & Happiness song, the production, on some UGK shit, is excellent.
In 2003, he only produced a song on DPGC U Know What I'm Throwin' Up, and in 2004 he produced some of the tracks for I Got Love IN These Streetz, the album. In 2004 he produced with Shorty B My Life, a T.I. track that could have been a 2pac track really, that production belongs with his best Death Row beats in my opinion.
In 2005 started a new era for Daz, that's when he started puttin out releases produced by his new production team : Daz, Ivan Johnson, and some guy named Michael Jordan, that would produce for the following Daz independent releases. He put out The Dogg Pound Gangsta LP. There's some problems with the mixing and the engineering of the album, but production wise, and musically wise I always found this album very good too.
So SO Gangsta was caricatural but beatwise it was kinda strong, the Daz productions sounded typical and some very good : Dangerous, Strizap, and the JD productions were strong : All I Need, The One, Badder Than a Mutha.
Gangsta Party wasn't produced by Daz, and Only on the Left Side was hit or miss but there were some dope productions on that too (Who I Be, Summer Vacation, Meal Ticket, Regrets)
All in all, I think Daz has a good catalogue, he has put out rushed projects (gangsta crunk, all his albums since matter of dayz, half assed collabo projects (gangsta party, zero tolerance, southwest). I don't think the quality of his beats went as downhill as how some like to portray, but it's clear they're suffering from lack of budget and the cause is him goin' independent. I think he still has it beatwise, and he should have stick to producing from 2007 onwards. Him still producing for the likes of Curren$y shows that he'd be better off producing for other artists.
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I think what Daz needs to focus on is melody, and unfortunately, forget what 2Pac taught them. 'Pac could bang out 3 songs a day and had a lot to say with meaning that Daz, Kurupt, Snoop just don't have (no knocking, not many rappers are able to do what 'Pac did.)
They need to go back to spending a week on a song, just like they did with early Death Row stuff, What Would U Do? Dogg Pound 4 Life, Just Doggin', etc, are timeless because of the time and effort.
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yea, he should produce more beats like that.... 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq8CFj4ytRU
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I think what Daz needs to focus on is melody, and unfortunately, forget what 2Pac taught them. 'Pac could bang out 3 songs a day and had a lot to say with meaning that Daz, Kurupt, Snoop just don't have (no knocking, not many rappers are able to do what 'Pac did.)
They need to go back to spending a week on a song, just like they did with early Death Row stuff, What Would U Do? Dogg Pound 4 Life, Just Doggin', etc, are timeless because of the time and effort.
this.
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yea, he should produce more beats like that.... 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq8CFj4ytRU
What a dope beat, do you have the MP3 of the instru and full song please?
Also, I think the things said about Daz being surrounded by the best hardware, session musicians, engineers and just so much raw talent and buzz would bring the best out of anyone. Going from that to a bedroom producer will have some effect on the overall sound, especially if they ain't doing no proper post production. The overall signature of the producer however would stay the same, just the levels of polish.
In regards to the Makaveli session, all those joints out the wack room were heavily post produced by the engineers, compare the demo cuts and you can see an immense difference.
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So, in my other thread about Daz's AEOM beats, I think we have learned some important things about why a producer's work during the Death Row era can be so vastly superior to that producer's work after Death Row.
Consider Skandalouz: you got Pac and Nate with the bomb vocals. Daz on the boards. Quik on the Rhodes piano. Cornelius Mims on guitar. Michel'le vocalizing as well, apparently. Soopafly and other people in the studio getting involved. And that is how you get Skandalouz, a so-called "Daz Dilinger" beat from 1996.
Daz wrote in my other thread regarding whether his AEOM beats were actually Quik beats: "thats false only thing quik did was mixx my music thats it but its all DAZ"
Clearly, the claim is not really true, the beat is not "all DAZ." Now, if we listen to a Daz Dillinger beat from circa 2010, we will hear the difference, because the recent beats are literally "all DAZ": they're made by Daz sitting at his computer pressing buttons. There's no live instrumentation, no Quik mixing, just a guy at his computer - the difference is obvious.
This is probably the same reason why Darryl "Big D" Harper and Tyrone "Hurt-M-Badd" Wrice produced some of the most brilliant beats in the history of rap while at Death Row in 1996, yet have not produced anything of note since Death Row. We think of them as the producers of Makaveli, but really, they were just available and were listening to what Pac wanted, and were commanding troops of people who were in those studios, with unlimited studio time, tons of talent around at all time, etc. The money and talent circulating around Can-Am studios in 1996 is what really made so much of this high quality music possible.
Come on homie.. these are all great threads, and I am just now discovering all of them... a lot of interesting discussion and even a post from the legend himself. Although I disagree with your premise, still props on the threads!
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You people need to remember that Daz used musicians too when he was on Death Row. Soopafly, Sean "Barney Rubble" Thomas, Carl "Butch" Small and Ricky Rouse all did work on "Retaliation, Revenge & Get Back". "R.A.W." was mostly Death Row material too, but the booklet doesn't have musicians credited.
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You people need to remember that Daz used musicians too when he was on Death Row. Soopafly, Sean "Barney Rubble" Thomas, Carl "Butch" Small and Ricky Rouse all did work on "Retaliation, Revenge & Get Back". "R.A.W." was mostly Death Row material too, but the booklet doesn't have musicians credited.
which is partly the reason why Daz production hasn't been as hot since the 90's. When in the 90's everything he did was fire... This is why sometimes artists are better off on big labels, I would assume they have increased access to musicians.
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So, in my other thread about Daz's AEOM beats, I think we have learned some important things about why a producer's work during the Death Row era can be so vastly superior to that producer's work after Death Row.
Consider Skandalouz: you got Pac and Nate with the bomb vocals. Daz on the boards. Quik on the Rhodes piano. Cornelius Mims on guitar. Michel'le vocalizing as well, apparently. Soopafly and other people in the studio getting involved. And that is how you get Skandalouz, a so-called "Daz Dilinger" beat from 1996.
Daz wrote in my other thread regarding whether his AEOM beats were actually Quik beats: "thats false only thing quik did was mixx my music thats it but its all DAZ"
Clearly, the claim is not really true, the beat is not "all DAZ." Now, if we listen to a Daz Dillinger beat from circa 2010, we will hear the difference, because the recent beats are literally "all DAZ": they're made by Daz sitting at his computer pressing buttons. There's no live instrumentation, no Quik mixing, just a guy at his computer - the difference is obvious.
This is probably the same reason why Darryl "Big D" Harper and Tyrone "Hurt-M-Badd" Wrice produced some of the most brilliant beats in the history of rap while at Death Row in 1996, yet have not produced anything of note since Death Row. We think of them as the producers of Makaveli, but really, they were just available and were listening to what Pac wanted, and were commanding troops of people who were in those studios, with unlimited studio time, tons of talent around at all time, etc. The money and talent circulating around Can-Am studios in 1996 is what really made so much of this high quality music possible.
Come on homie.. these are all great threads, and I am just now discovering all of them... a lot of interesting discussion and even a post from the legend himself. Although I disagree with your premise, still props on the threads!
Thanks man, I appreciate the love. Just promoting real talk about classic West Coast hip hop. Stayin M.O.B.
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So, in my other thread about Daz's AEOM beats, I think we have learned some important things about why a producer's work during the Death Row era can be so vastly superior to that producer's work after Death Row.
Consider Skandalouz: you got Pac and Nate with the bomb vocals. Daz on the boards. Quik on the Rhodes piano. Cornelius Mims on guitar. Michel'le vocalizing as well, apparently. Soopafly and other people in the studio getting involved. And that is how you get Skandalouz, a so-called "Daz Dilinger" beat from 1996.
Daz wrote in my other thread regarding whether his AEOM beats were actually Quik beats: "thats false only thing quik did was mixx my music thats it but its all DAZ"
Clearly, the claim is not really true, the beat is not "all DAZ." Now, if we listen to a Daz Dillinger beat from circa 2010, we will hear the difference, because the recent beats are literally "all DAZ": they're made by Daz sitting at his computer pressing buttons. There's no live instrumentation, no Quik mixing, just a guy at his computer - the difference is obvious.
This is probably the same reason why Darryl "Big D" Harper and Tyrone "Hurt-M-Badd" Wrice produced some of the most brilliant beats in the history of rap while at Death Row in 1996, yet have not produced anything of note since Death Row. We think of them as the producers of Makaveli, but really, they were just available and were listening to what Pac wanted, and were commanding troops of people who were in those studios, with unlimited studio time, tons of talent around at all time, etc. The money and talent circulating around Can-Am studios in 1996 is what really made so much of this high quality music possible.
Come on homie.. these are all great threads, and I am just now discovering all of them... a lot of interesting discussion and even a post from the legend himself. Although I disagree with your premise, still props on the threads!
Thanks man, I appreciate the love. Just promoting real talk about classic West Coast hip hop. Stayin M.O.B.
Keepin' it gangsta in Boston, huh?
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You people need to remember that Daz used musicians too when he was on Death Row. Soopafly, Sean "Barney Rubble" Thomas, Carl "Butch" Small and Ricky Rouse all did work on "Retaliation, Revenge & Get Back". "R.A.W." was mostly Death Row material too, but the booklet doesn't have musicians credited.
daz or dr. dre needs to go find those guys.
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You people need to remember that Daz used musicians too when he was on Death Row. Soopafly, Sean "Barney Rubble" Thomas, Carl "Butch" Small and Ricky Rouse all did work on "Retaliation, Revenge & Get Back". "R.A.W." was mostly Death Row material too, but the booklet doesn't have musicians credited.
daz or dr. dre needs to go find those guys.
yeah a lot of musicians were at their disposal and you can hear it on Nate Dogg's G-Funk Classics especially, Daz's productions on the albums are hella musical, especially If This Were My World, and Scared Of Love on Vol. 1, these songs could be Jazz music.
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It's not just the musicians and the studio but also the creative environment as well. And this is important to note, beyond beat-making, what makes production so unique and difficult to sometimes break down. I've never seen production, specifically at a label with million dollar budgets, as being this thing where one producer has this very particular vision and just gets all these musicians and artists to create it for him. I think with any creative endeavor, you're going to come up with great ideas on the spot and it will be the producer who makes the decision which ones to use and which not to. With Makaveli, it seemed like Pac was starting to venture more into the production side and come with ideas of his own.
Also, with Death Row, it wasn't just that they had all these great musical people and studios at their disposal but they were working with sounds that were still somewhat fresh and exciting to experiment with. You don't have that today because those sounds have been tapped out to a degree.
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But what you need to remember is back in the Deathrow days the studio was actually a STUDIO!
/end thread
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With Makaveli, it seemed like Pac was starting to venture more into the production side and come with ideas of his own.
I also agree with this, after all none of those producers on Makaveli ever came close to dropping anything like their work on that album. A combination of the wack producers, DR engineers, Pac and probably some session musicians crafted that sound which is why when they go back to one man band status the tracks feel flat.