West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Sports & Entertainment => Topic started by: topdogg187 on January 07, 2014, 04:31:54 PM
-
That was one of the best Wild Card weekends i've seen in a while. Lots of tight games with the exception of chargers game and epic comeback by colts. Who do you got this week? My predictions are:
Seattle over Saints 31-17
New England over Indy 38-24
San Fran over Carolina 20-16
San Diego over Denver 30-24
-
That was one of the best Wild Card weekends i've seen in a while. Lots of tight games with the exception of chargers game and epic comeback by colts. Who do you got this week? My predictions are:
Seattle over Saints 31-17
New England over Indy 38-24
San Fran over Carolina 20-16
San Diego over Denver 30-24
Seattle over NO
New England over Indy
Carolina over San Fran
Denver over San Diego
-
Seattle over Saints 31-17
New England over Indy 38-24
San Fran over Carolina 20-16
San Diego over Denver 30-24
Agreed. Fuck predicting the final score, though.
-
Damn, that would be something if Manning got bounced early yet again. I feel like they'll at least beat the Chargers though.
-
WHOS THE FAVORITE 2 WIN IT ALL?
-
WHOS THE FAVORITE 2 WIN IT ALL?
The Seahawks are a slight favorite over the Broncos to win it all. But after drawing San Diego in the Divisional Round I definitely don't see Denver being the second favorite as Chargers were the worst possible matchup they could've drawn. Either way that will be close.
-
Saints over Seattle
Indy over New England
San Fran over Carolina
San Diego over Denver
Is what I want to happen, with an SF vs SD Super Bowl. I don't see that happening though. :-\
Fuck the Seahawks and their 2 year old "die hard" fanbase.
-
Saints over Seattle
Indy over New England
San Fran over Carolina
San Diego over Denver
Is what I want to happen, with an SF vs SD Super Bowl. I don't see that happening though. :-\
Fuck the Seahawks and their 2 year old "die hard" fanbase.
The hate is strong in this one.
-
Saints have no chance in hell in Seattle. In NO, maybe. But outdoors against that Pass D LOL.
-
Saints over Seattle
Indy over New England
San Fran over Carolina
San Diego over Denver
Is what I want to happen, with an SF vs SD Super Bowl. I don't see that happening though. :-\
That would be my perfect prediction (with SD winning it).
-
Saints over Seattle
Indy over New England
San Fran over Carolina
San Diego over Denver
Is what I want to happen, with an SF vs SD Super Bowl. I don't see that happening though. :-\
Fuck the Seahawks and their 2 year old "die hard" fanbase.
The hate is strong in this one.
I'm a Niner fan living in Ballard. When I first moved here Hawks fans were cool once they got better I'm suddenly being booed in public for rocking SF gear. Obnoxious and insincere. Shoutout all the real Hawks fans that know who Chuck Knox is and don't make a big deal about the rivalry.
-
Im going for the Seahawks for the superbowl.
I'm a Niner fan living in Ballard. When I first moved here Hawks fans were cool once they got better I'm suddenly being booed in public for rocking SF gear. Obnoxious and insincere. Shoutout all the real Hawks fans that know who Chuck Knox is and don't make a big deal about the rivalry.
Truth, i use to rock a raiders jersey, this was like 99/00. People would shout out FUCK YOU when they were driving by n shit, still cracks me up to this day. I dare you to rock a Niners jersey Saturday though, MFs would prolly go out their way to hate on you like it was the Player Haters Ball or something
-
Saints over Seattle
Indy over New England
San Fran over Carolina
San Diego over Denver
Is what I want to happen, with an SF vs SD Super Bowl. I don't see that happening though. :-\
Fuck the Seahawks and their 2 year old "die hard" fanbase.
The hate is strong in this one.
I'm a Niner fan living in Ballard. When I first moved here Hawks fans were cool once they got better I'm suddenly being booed in public for rocking SF gear. Obnoxious and insincere. Shoutout all the real Hawks fans that know who Chuck Knox is and don't make a big deal about the rivalry.
Yeah, that would annoy me too obviously, but the same thing happens all over the place. One of my friends works in the SF area and hears the same type of stuff all the time if he's rocking Hawks stuff. As far as them being "cool at first", the rivalry really didn't start until both teams were contenders at the same time, which wasn't until last year. Gotta remember that the Hawks weren't in the NFC West until '02 and the division was really one-sided up until the last few years. Regarding not making a big deal out of the rivalry, aren't heated rivalries what makes sports more fun? I hate the 9ers more cause of it, and would even more so if I was in your position living in another market. But it's not a situation where you can just single out Hawks fans like they're somehow worse than everyone else.
-
Damn, that would be something if Manning got bounced early yet again. I feel like they'll at least beat the Chargers though.
Why is it always Manning? Manning's career regular season passer rating is 97.2 and his passer rating in his last 5 one and dones is 95.2. Yet the NFL and analysts perpetuate the myth of Manning's huge drop off in the playoffs with out actually bringing up the figures, about as hard as they perpetuate the myth that Brady has a better arm than Manning, or most NFL QBs.
I remember seeing the same bullshit with Greg Maddox in baseball. They would simply tally up the playoff losses and call him a chole inthe playoffs. They never bothered to bring up that he'd lose games 2-1 and have a career post season era that was neck and neck with his regular season era.
-
If Philip Rivers drops Peyton this weekend it'll be his ninth one & done. The man has won over ten games every single season & shockingly can't win that first round playoff game. It's more than a coincidence.
Manning blame scale: http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10266254/are-peyton-manning-one-dones-fault
-
If Philip Rivers drops Peyton this weekend it'll be his ninth one & done. The man has won over ten games every single season & shockingly can't win that first round playoff game. It's more than a coincidence.
Manning blame scale: http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10266254/are-peyton-manning-one-dones-fault
The ESPN scales per game were a bit harsh but to some extent it comes to the QB play. I mean even last year people wanna lay blame on rahim moore for the hail mary how about the two kickoff return scores that Manning had nothing to do with? you subtract those two and the one missed play by moore and Ravens still win so we can play these if this happened games all we want but just because your having a good passer rating game or completion percentage does not mean losing a game can't be your fault. Its plain fact that two ill-timed Interceptions just off the top of my head cost them two games plain and simple. The Ravens OT INT lost the game for them and the Pick 6 he threw in the Superbowl against Brees and the Saints was absolutely atrocious at that time and field position. Tony Romo has great QBR and Passer Rating this season but why is he still considered a choker? Simple, because he seems to throw INT's at the worst possible times to end games and Manning rarely does that in the Regular Season but seems to do it very often when it comes to the playoffs and hes playing good competition. We'll see if he can prove the haters wrong(myself included) this weekend but as far as i'm concerned I personally feel he's gonna have another pretty good game and not take care of the ball at the end and its gonna cost his team the game again and this debate will continue going on.
-
The weird thing is the year Manning won the Super Bowl was one of his worst playoff performances statistically. He threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs and had a passer rating of 70.5.
-
The weird thing is the year Manning won the Super Bowl was one of his worst playoff performances statistically. He threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs and had a passer rating of 70.5.
The only weird thing is how people are so blind to the very simple fact that teams win and lose games and QBs are usually just along for the ride, be that a good or bad ride for the QB. The main reason the QB gets all the credit and the blame is because they are the only majority Caucasian face left in the world of sports. If every QB was black or latino and most RBs were white it'd very quickly turn back into a running back driven league.
-
If Philip Rivers drops Peyton this weekend it'll be his ninth one & done. The man has won over ten games every single season & shockingly can't win that first round playoff game. It's more than a coincidence.
Manning blame scale: http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10266254/are-peyton-manning-one-dones-fault
The ESPN scales per game were a bit harsh but to some extent it comes to the QB play. I mean even last year people wanna lay blame on rahim moore for the hail mary how about the two kickoff return scores that Manning had nothing to do with? you subtract those two and the one missed play by moore and Ravens still win so we can play these if this happened games all we want but just because your having a good passer rating game or completion percentage does not mean losing a game can't be your fault. Its plain fact that two ill-timed Interceptions just off the top of my head cost them two games plain and simple. The Ravens OT INT lost the game for them and the Pick 6 he threw in the Superbowl against Brees and the Saints was absolutely atrocious at that time and field position. Tony Romo has great QBR and Passer Rating this season but why is he still considered a choker? Simple, because he seems to throw INT's at the worst possible times to end games and Manning rarely does that in the Regular Season but seems to do it very often when it comes to the playoffs and hes playing good competition. We'll see if he can prove the haters wrong(myself included) this weekend but as far as i'm concerned I personally feel he's gonna have another pretty good game and not take care of the ball at the end and its gonna cost his team the game again and this debate will continue going on.
But you are assuming that had the run backs been stopped that the Broncos would have come up with zero points on them. Who is to say both would have have been TD drives and that took time off the clock and won the game in regulation for the Broncos?
-
If Philip Rivers drops Peyton this weekend it'll be his ninth one & done. The man has won over ten games every single season & shockingly can't win that first round playoff game. It's more than a coincidence.
Manning blame scale: http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10266254/are-peyton-manning-one-dones-fault
You love bringing up numbers yet you seem to always ignore mine. Every season of 10 or more wins, right? A passer rating of 97.2 to go with those 10+ win seasons. And in the last 0-5 one and dones a passer rating of 95.2
Two numbers for you; 97.2 and 95.2
EXPLAIN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Tonight's game shows the difference in careers of Tom and Peyton; 13 of 25 for 198 yards and 0 TDs for a passer rating of 78.4
Tom's 78.4 is another dominant win by Brady while Peyton's 95.2 is one choke after another
Tom gets to play for teams that in January have the ability to blow out opponents 43-21 despite the QBs mediocre play and Peyton more often than not plays for teams that rely heavily upon his sensational play to get Ws. Peyton Manning on the Pats tonight would have won this game. Where as Brady on the Colts in 03 against the Cheifs in January, or against the Jets in 09 would have not been able to pull that out ever, and Peyton only has a 50/50 shot of ever being able to do stuff like that.
I've yet to see a playoff game where the Pats don't show up and Brady does and the Pats win
-
Tonight's game shows the difference in careers of Tom and Peyton; 13 of 25 for 198 yards and 0 TDs for a passer rating of 78.4
Tom's 78.4 is another dominant win by Brady while Peyton's 95.2 is one choke after another
Tom gets to play for teams that in January have the ability to blow out opponents 43-21 despite the QBs mediocre play and Peyton more often than not plays for teams that rely heavily upon his sensational play to get Ws. Peyton Manning on the Pats tonight would have won this game. Where as Brady on the Colts in 03 against the Cheifs in January, or against the Jets in 09 would have not been able to pull that out ever, and Peyton only has a 50/50 shot of ever being able to do stuff like that.
I've yet to see a playoff game where the Pats don't show up and Brady does and the Pats wing
Okay I know you love Peyton Manning but this is getting absolutely rediculous...ya Brady didn't have a huge statistical game but he puts then in those positions to score Tds by driving them there, making plays when he has to and get how about the big key that your idol manning doesn't do and that's take care if the fucken ball when it matters that's why manning is considered a choke not only because his team always loses but because he doesn't take care of the ball at the times it matters most simple as that...I'm done arguing this point with you cause your gonna keep pulling random stats out but only stat you'll need to know is manning throwing another ill timed pick today and when they lose you'll blame the Defense like every other Manning fanboy lol
-
If Philip Rivers drops Peyton this weekend it'll be his ninth one & done. The man has won over ten games every single season & shockingly can't win that first round playoff game. It's more than a coincidence.
Manning blame scale: http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10266254/are-peyton-manning-one-dones-fault
You love bringing up numbers yet you seem to always ignore mine. Every season of 10 or more wins, right? A passer rating of 97.2 to go with those 10+ win seasons. And in the last 0-5 one and dones a passer rating of 95.2
Two numbers for you; 97.2 and 95.2
EXPLAIN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two points less in the losses. That's a downgrade in my book.
-
If Philip Rivers drops Peyton this weekend it'll be his ninth one & done. The man has won over ten games every single season & shockingly can't win that first round playoff game. It's more than a coincidence.
Manning blame scale: http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10266254/are-peyton-manning-one-dones-fault
You love bringing up numbers yet you seem to always ignore mine. Every season of 10 or more wins, right? A passer rating of 97.2 to go with those 10+ win seasons. And in the last 0-5 one and dones a passer rating of 95.2
Two numbers for you; 97.2 and 95.2
EXPLAIN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two points less in the losses. That's a downgrade in my book.
Fine, call it a a downgrade, but call Brady's downgrade too. Brady is 95.7 in regular season career and in his last 5 losses he's 74.8
That's not a 2 point downgrade. That's a 20 point downgrade.
Today's game, says what I've been saying for years. Rivers didn't play so poorly. I mean Manning definitely made a few tougher throws and tricked the d-line a bunch, but in the end, the Denver pass rush compared to the SD pass rush was the difference. Denver most likely still wins this game with Rivers, and Manning on SD.
I'm not a fanboy. I simply have a stance and see the truth. If Manning stinks it up and gets carried to a win like against KC and Baltimore in 06, I call it for what it is. I don't use stupid words like presence, poise, clutch, and mental toughness. "Yeah he didn't have great numbers but he made the plays that needed to be made and that's what won the game". That's bullshit!
Denver won today because they shut down the SD offense in the first 3 quarters and had 2 great and one decent offensive drives.
-
He has a 74 passer rating these first two games.
Tebow had an 80.
-
If Brady beats him this weekend with no Wilfork, Gronk, Hernandez, Mayo and whoever else in Denver its no debate no more.
-
He has a 74 passer rating these first two games.
Tebow had an 80.
Actually it was 89 for Tebow. The 125 against Pitt's zero-coverage defense and the 52 against NE's zone.
Peyton has an 88.3 against Baltimore last year and a 93.5 yesterday against SD. Now I haven't taken grade 5 math in a long time but I don't think the average of 88.3 and 93.5 is 74. But hey, you're obviously smarter than me at Football so maybe you're smarter than me at math as well.
-
Nevermind, you meant 1999 and 2000. Peyton's first two games. What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Completely different eras and teams. And no one is debating who had a better first 3 seasons of their career; Peyton or Tebow.
-
If Brady beats him this weekend with no Wilfork, Gronk, Hernandez, Mayo and whoever else in Denver its no debate no more.
If Brady hands the ball off for 200 yards by Blount and the no Wilfork/Mayo defense shuts down Denver's offense, it has nothing to do with Brady.
And I just admitted that Peyton did not outplay Rivers for the win. You guys need to get off the kool aid and stop buying into this QB vs QB bullshit.
-
So in turn, I guess this game is a moot point for your argument...being that as a whole the Broncos are better than the Patriots. Unless Brady throws three picks...even though Peyton has thrown three picks against Brady in the playoffs before. I don't know. I can't keep up with your rules lol.
But I'll just blame the defense and Aaron Hernandez's murder on the loss.
-
So in turn, I guess this game is a moot point for your argument...being that as a whole the Broncos are better than the Patriots. Unless Brady throws three picks...even though Peyton has thrown three picks against Brady in the playoffs before. I don't know. I can't keep up with your rules lol.
But I'll just blame the defense and Aaron Hernandez's murder on the loss.
The only parts of the Broncos that are better than the Pats is the WR/TE corps and the QB. That's it.
The Patriots have a better o-line and o-line coach, a better OC, and better DC, a better pass rush, a better run game, the secondaries are equal as far as talent but Belli's way smarter at positioning them. And the Pats have a way better head coach.
With Peyton the Pats would have been a 14-2 or 15-1 #1 seed. With Brady the Broncos would have lost the division to the Chiefs. Because as good as the WRs on Denver are, they are more finesse over the shoulder route runners and Brady can't make those throws.
-
The Broncos defense is far better. The Patriots had the 26th ranked defense.
Moreno had a better season than the Patriot backs. Blount had three TWO YARD RUNS for TDs. TWO YARDS. He's no Adrian Peterson now. Monte Ball could've done that for the Patriots last week. Then his stats were inflated because he busted for a 73 yard run. If I played a full sixteen game schedule, I'd eventually bust one out for at least 45-50.
Peyton lucked out with the easiest schedule in the NFL with a .430 opponent win percentage. & then of course the four toughest games on the schedule besides the overrated Chiefs who played the same easy ass schedule, Chargers, Cowboys, Colts, Patriots ended in three losses & a Romo drive away to tie or win the game.
-
(https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1524758_10151990943771263_1400014764_n.jpg)
-
The Broncos defense is far better. The Patriots had the 26th ranked defense.
Moreno had a better season than the Patriot backs. Blount had three TWO YARD RUNS for TDs. TWO YARDS. He's no Adrian Peterson now. Monte Ball could've done that for the Patriots last week. Then his stats were inflated because he busted for a 73 yard run. If I played a full sixteen game schedule, I'd eventually bust one out for at least 45-50.
Peyton lucked out with the easiest schedule in the NFL with a .430 opponent win percentage. & then of course the four toughest games on the schedule besides the overrated Chiefs who played the same easy ass schedule, Chargers, Cowboys, Colts, Patriots ended in three losses & a Romo drive away to tie or win the game.
Fuck the schedule and fuck the rankings. The defense is better in NE. I don't care how many yards they let up. And you're going to bring up the Dallas game to knock Peyton. That joke of a Denver D let Romo put up almost 50.
He's just better, because he's fucking better. I see it with my eyes and have seen it for over a decade.
And shut up,. 2 yard runs. After he ran down the field. Fucking guy had almost 200 yards running, splitting time with other guys. Shit. Take away the 73 yard run. He'd still have almost 100 on 24 carries,. Of course it's not the long runs that matter, or even the RBs per se. If it's 4th and inches and the game on the line which team do I trust to hand the ball off and get the yard more? It's always NE.
Now most of this has to do with one man above anything else; Bill Belicheck. You give the Broncos as is that man as HC and the Pats get John Fox then this game is a Broncos domination.
-
Cham i dont' even know why your bothering arguing with this Manning Jock Sniffer. Its as simple as this, your eyes you see one thing and in my eyes and chams eye i see them fucken play and Brady is fucken easily better not even close has been for years. Whose to say my eyes are better then yours or yours better then mine? Nobody. Opinions are like assholes everyone has one. Shallow you think Manning is the greatest I think Brady is the greatest. Everyones gonna be treated to a good game no matter who wins or loses this fucken argument will go on forever so I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the game as well as the Seattle/San Fran game which should be some nice smash mouth football at C-Link.
-
Cham i dont' even know why your bothering arguing with this Manning Jock Sniffer. Its as simple as this, your eyes you see one thing and in my eyes and chams eye i see them fucken play and Brady is fucken easily better not even close has been for years. Whose to say my eyes are better then yours or yours better then mine? Nobody. Opinions are like assholes everyone has one. Shallow you think Manning is the greatest I think Brady is the greatest. Everyones gonna be treated to a good game no matter who wins or loses this fucken argument will go on forever so I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the game as well as the Seattle/San Fran game which should be some nice smash mouth football at C-Link.
I think Johnny Unitas is the greatest, and I never thought it was ever close.
-
Cham i dont' even know why your bothering arguing with this Manning Jock Sniffer. Its as simple as this, your eyes you see one thing and in my eyes and chams eye i see them fucken play and Brady is fucken easily better not even close has been for years. Whose to say my eyes are better then yours or yours better then mine? Nobody. Opinions are like assholes everyone has one. Shallow you think Manning is the greatest I think Brady is the greatest. Everyones gonna be treated to a good game no matter who wins or loses this fucken argument will go on forever so I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the game as well as the Seattle/San Fran game which should be some nice smash mouth football at C-Link.
I think Johnny Unitas is the greatest, and I never thought it was ever close.
Okay well thats your opinion and a good choice. I wish I knew more about Johnny Unitas but unfortunately I was not able to watch him play but have only heard praise about him from NFL Analysts.
-
Cham i dont' even know why your bothering arguing with this Manning Jock Sniffer. Its as simple as this, your eyes you see one thing and in my eyes and chams eye i see them fucken play and Brady is fucken easily better not even close has been for years. Whose to say my eyes are better then yours or yours better then mine? Nobody. Opinions are like assholes everyone has one. Shallow you think Manning is the greatest I think Brady is the greatest. Everyones gonna be treated to a good game no matter who wins or loses this fucken argument will go on forever so I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the game as well as the Seattle/San Fran game which should be some nice smash mouth football at C-Link.
I think Johnny Unitas is the greatest, and I never thought it was ever close.
Okay well thats your opinion and a good choice. I wish I knew more about Johnny Unitas but unfortunately I was not able to watch him play but have only heard praise about him from NFL Analysts.
When I watch Unitas play I see the exact same talent I see from Manning. The difference is I see him do it against a defense that's allowed to body slam him after he throws the ball and beat up his WRs all the way down the field. For a while now I've thought there are only 3 QBs in history that could have been drafted anywhere under any circumstances and still made the hall of fame; Unitas, Marino, and Manning.
Montana for all his glory would have looked a lot worse than Steve Young had he been on the Bucs. He played for a team that couldn't lose even when the 3rd stringer was in there, Steve Bono, and he gets credit for the team's victories. I simply don't give credit to a QB for the wins and losses of a team.
As for Brady, he's a much better QB now than he was in the first 5 years of his career, but he is called the best based on those first 5 years, because his team won it all. He was a lot better in 07 than in 03, and his team was better in 07 than in 03, but they lost and it somehow doesn't matter.
I see a guy that when his a-gap is open and his WRs break even slightly open up the middle or wide open down the field, he can hit them. He will rarely make a bonehead throw or try and gun it when he doesn't have to, and he has a good sense of what's around him with regards to whether to tuck it and run or stay with the pass. But when the a-gap gets crunched and the WRs get covered, he can't fit it tight to the outside consistently enough and he can't over the should fade it with the best of them.
He had the 07 offense and couldn't get more than 14 out of them and people call it a fluke that Eli was able to muster up that drive. I just don't get the hypocrisy. Manning gets lauded for one and dones. There was a Sandiego game where Manning took the offense down the field for the lead to end the game, but San Diego tied it last minute and then got the ball first in OT and scored and it goes down as another choke for Manning. Brady can't be that spared just because the three early rings.
Just look at the facts since his last ring;
A pick 6 in the end zone to cement the loss against Denver in 05
A pick to end the game down by 4 with a minute left against the Colts in 06
14 points only against the Giants in 07 and still had Randy Moss running with a step on his DB twice on the last possession but couldn't throw it far enough (not to mention the 3 picks against SD in the AFC game)
A one and done beat down at the hands of the Ravens in 09
The 14-2 Pats got beat at home by the Jets by being held really to 14 points most of the game and a last TD thrown in junk time to cap off and 2nd straight one and done in '10
A safety and a crucial pick, and the ball last in '11 and still a 17 point scored loss to the Giants
In '12 he could get a single point in the second half despite going into to half with the lead
This sums of the end of the season for Tom Brady for the last 7 years. So 3 of the first 4 just erase what he's done in the last 7 of 8? What about any of that makes him better than Peyton? And for arguments sake I'll pessimistically look at Peyton's ends of seasons from that time
Only put up 18 against Pit in 05
Had some of his worst games ever on the way to a ring in 06
Threw two picks in the 24-28 loss to SD in 07
Couldn't put up a point ijn 4th to seal a win against SD in 08, and only put up 17
Threw a pick six in the final miutes of the 09 SB
Could only put up 16 against the Jets in 10
Threw a pick in OT against the Ravens in '12
That's the last 7 years of Manning
In the last 7 years their playoff W/L records are 7-6 for Manning with a passer rating of 87.6 (82.5 rating avg. in the 7 wins and 94.1 in the losses) - That's a 12 points higher average rating for Manning in the losses than the Wins
In the last 7 years their playoff W/L records are 9-7 for Brady with a passer rating of 87.4 (96.9 in the wins and 75.4 in the losses) That's a 20 drop in the losses
Now I'm not a numbers guy, numbers lie and I don't use them to win arguments.
I simply ask a question; when we are talking about who is the best QB of the last 7 or 8 years and we use numbers to argue it how is one guy a scrub and a choke and the other the definition of clutch?