West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Sports & Entertainment => Topic started by: whoisthis on January 22, 2014, 12:59:13 PM
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Any feelings on this fight?
For me, it's another safe fight. The same kind of safe fights that are truly hurting Boxing. On Paper, to a casual fan, this looks like a great fight. 2 young Mexican stars. 1 who is approaching Super Star status and the other who is known for being a tough guy. It probably will be a slug fest. But, a fighter like Angulo is tailor made for Canelo. He's a stationary fighter who doesn't mind taking punishment and lacks any real defense. He's dangerous enough to test Canelo's chin, but not dangerous enough to make him look bad. When I read this Canelo quote:
"People want to see excitement. They want action. They don't want to see running...He was the best option to fight."
I knew immediately why the fight was made with Angulo. That quote is directed at Erislandy Lara. Lara called Canelo out back in December. After his fight with Trout he said "I did what Canelo couldn't do...I dominated Trout and I dropped him. Now we have to make a fight that everyone wants to see which is me against Canelo." And in the Post-Fight press conference, Lara answers the question about what he wants to say to Canelo. Forward to the 40 second mark.
http://www.youtube.com/v/6Vfat0P4M0k
I'm not shocked the fight didn't happen. But, disappointed. Lara punches hard enough, but his biggest strength is his defense. Golden Boy knew that if they put Lara in the ring with Canelo, Canelo would not look like a superstar, but be exposed for having extremely poor cardio and moreover, his struggles with defensive fighters.
When you break it down, Lara makes the most sense to be next in line. While he struggled with Angulo, Lara ended up stopping him because the Ref thought Angulo had broken an orbital bone:
(http://sportsmasher.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/alfredo-angulo-eye.jpg)
The aforementioned dispatching of Trout came after this. Since getting robbed against Paul Williams, Lara is 4-0-1 and should probably be 5-0 had it not been for an accidental headbutt vs. Martirosyan.
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Canelo will handle business.
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Canelo will handle business.
Then he'll fight Cotto next and say that this was the best fight possible.
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should be a good tune up fight for Canelo, Angulo can pose a threat dude is tough and has power but his boxing skills arent matched for Canelo, if i remember correctly i think Angulo was beating Lara until he suffered that injury, but i could be wrong because i lost my scorecard app on my old phone...
either way its going to be an exciting fight to help Canelo set up for a bigger fight, i think Cotto and Martinez are in the works right now since Canelo chose to fight Angulo instead... I'm not going to count Angulo out just yet cus dude does have power, but he's never really beat anyone really good besides Joel Julio who i thought was kinda over rated anyways...
I see Canelo either giving him a boxing lesson and dominating the middle rounds like he did against Trout, but one big punch can hurt Canelo if he gets sloppy slugging it out.
hopefully whoever wins the fight, this sets up for a fight against the returning Ricardo Mayorga :laugh: lol jk
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should be a good tune up fight for Canelo, Angulo can pose a threat dude is tough and has power but his boxing skills arent matched for Canelo, if i remember correctly i think Angulo was beating Lara until he suffered that injury, but i could be wrong because i lost my scorecard app on my old phone...
either way its going to be an exciting fight to help Canelo set up for a bigger fight, i think Cotto and Martinez are in the works right now since Canelo chose to fight Angulo instead... I'm not going to count Angulo out just yet cus dude does have power, but he's never really beat anyone really good besides Joel Julio who i thought was kinda over rated anyways...
I see Canelo either giving him a boxing lesson and dominating the middle rounds like he did against Trout, but one big punch can hurt Canelo if he gets sloppy slugging it out.
hopefully whoever wins the fight, this sets up for a fight against the returning Ricardo Mayorga :laugh: lol jk
Yeah, Lara went down a few times against Angulo, but he kept on fighting and working the head, which helped him win the fight. Cotto and Martinez are SUPPOSED to fight and hasn't been finalized yet. http://www.badlefthook.com/2014/1/20/5328756/martinez-vs-cotto-negotiations-include-no-catchweight-full-160-pound
But Cotto said this also:
http://www.boxingscene.com/cotto-says-canelo-clash-very-possible-this-year--73643
He wants to stay relevant so he'll fight Canelo any day. I just don't think that's the best fight for Canelo. He's young and if Golden Boy wants him to be a star, he needs to face some tougher talent. Not just punchers and punching bags. He got lucky with Trout that they fought in Texas and that Trout has little to no power. Lara is a better defensive fighter than Trout and has more power.
Mayorga is going to fight until he's 85. Is he done doing MMA?
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should be a good tune up fight for Canelo, Angulo can pose a threat dude is tough and has power but his boxing skills arent matched for Canelo, if i remember correctly i think Angulo was beating Lara until he suffered that injury, but i could be wrong because i lost my scorecard app on my old phone...
either way its going to be an exciting fight to help Canelo set up for a bigger fight, i think Cotto and Martinez are in the works right now since Canelo chose to fight Angulo instead... I'm not going to count Angulo out just yet cus dude does have power, but he's never really beat anyone really good besides Joel Julio who i thought was kinda over rated anyways...
I see Canelo either giving him a boxing lesson and dominating the middle rounds like he did against Trout, but one big punch can hurt Canelo if he gets sloppy slugging it out.
hopefully whoever wins the fight, this sets up for a fight against the returning Ricardo Mayorga :laugh: lol jk
Yeah, Lara went down a few times against Angulo, but he kept on fighting and working the head, which helped him win the fight. Cotto and Martinez are SUPPOSED to fight and hasn't been finalized yet. http://www.badlefthook.com/2014/1/20/5328756/martinez-vs-cotto-negotiations-include-no-catchweight-full-160-pound
But Cotto said this also:
http://www.boxingscene.com/cotto-says-canelo-clash-very-possible-this-year--73643
He wants to stay relevant so he'll fight Canelo any day. I just don't think that's the best fight for Canelo. He's young and if Golden Boy wants him to be a star, he needs to face some tougher talent. Not just punchers and punching bags. He got lucky with Trout that they fought in Texas and that Trout has little to no power. Lara is a better defensive fighter than Trout and has more power.
Mayorga is going to fight until he's 85. Is he done doing MMA?
yeah thats why i said its "in the works" meaning they are trying to work something out, but Martinez i think is the best middleweight around besides GGG (its a shame he's being pushed as HBO next big star but they cant air his fight coming up in February) i really dont think Martinez is the best fight for Cotto, i think Cotto needs to stay at 154 because thats his best weight since i dont think he can make 147 anymore... also I dont see him beating Martinez or Canelo but im sure its going to be a great fight regardless cus i was never really a big fan of Cotto throughout his career until he took his break, because dude always comes to fight and puts great matches, i mean he made the Floyd fight an exciting one and gave him the best fight any boxer has given him in years since Castillo...
I think the Canelo vs Trout had a few more swing rounds but i have Canelo alot of those middle rounds and the knockdown helped him allot i had it 116-111 for Canelo but i could see how some people saw it closer then what it was, but Canelo had the better shots that won him those rounds...
and the Trout vs Lara fight i remember watching it and thinking damn trout doesnt have it anymore or Lara is really that good to dominate a guy like Trout... so your right about that
as far as Mayorga goes, yeah he's done with MMA and hopefully gives us one last good fight win or lose he's the most entertaining funniest boxers ever... He's training in Vegas right now, I'm sure he will take a fight for a bottle of Jim Beam and a pack of Marbolo Reds... lol but he's always been one of my favorites just cus how much of a lunatic he is, I remember i use to knock out all my friends with him on Fight Night Round 2 back in the day
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GGG is the most exciting fighter to me right now. He's said he's willing to fight anyone from 154-168. No one wants to fight him though.
To me, Cotto had the best blueprint to fight Floyd, he was just not at the top of his game any more then. But, it's been a while since then and I think Cotto is really just a shell.
As for Canelo, dude looked so sluggish against Trout and I remember I had Canelo winning but by like a Point or so. I remember one judge had it like 118-110 or some crazy shit. I couldn't believe it. It was a very close fight and without the Knockdown, most people would've had Canelo winning. To me, Trout is a B+ fighter on his best day and if Canelo is supposed to be A+, he shouldn't let someone like Trout almost beat him.
Mayorga is definitely a character. I still remember when he said he was going to Fuck Oscar De La Hoya's wife or some crazy shit. Nut job for real.
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http://www.youtube.com/v/3SxgDXA4xXA?version=3&hl=en_US
at 4:07 Mayorga says;
''Hey, Vargas; i want you to know something. After i leave you a failure in 2 rounds in the ring, your mom is going to be the worst drunken whore in that sonafabicth of a country, you heard. Because you're not going to be able to maintain her you faggot.''
at first i remember i didnt want to buy this ppv because i just thought it was two washed up boxers trying to get their last pay day but then i remember watching the press conference and watching this interview and that made me buy it, and im glad i did it was a very entertaining fight and made me like Ricardo even more
yeah and i was all about Mayorga beating Oscar's ass, but that didnt end up happening and i lost alot of money on that fight lol
but watch all his press conferences and interviews, he has some classic ones he said to Mosley, Cotto, Vargas, De La Hoya, and even against the guys in mma, just youtube them and watch his press conferences for a good laugh
LMAO just listen to what dude says he's fuckin hillarious, and that slap at 9:00 almost put his ass down lol
http://www.youtube.com/v/35YJGiJKsUE?hl=en_US
then watch the end they act all cool, see Mayorga is a lunatic but's he knows how to sell fights win or lose he always says sorry for what he says, even in the Vargas fight afterwards i remember he said he didnt mean any of the shit he said, it was all to hype the fight and sell tickets, he basically does what Floyd and Broner do but 10x better
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^Classic shit. He was an asshole, but he was funny. I rarely wanted Mayorga to win, but when he was fighting Vargas, you would have thought I was his number 1 fan. I hated Vargas (and still do) with a passion. Victor Ortiz reminds me of Vargas more than anyone. That's why I don't like Ortiz either.
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dude same here... i hated Vargas and now i hate Ortiz, but Vargas was more of a mexican fighter then Ortiz ever will be, Ortiz has no heart and was a big let down, he was suppose to be the next Oscar De La Hoya and failed in the process, i hope Callazo beats his ass like Lopez did
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dude same here... i hated Vargas and now i hate Ortiz, but Vargas was more of a mexican fighter then Ortiz ever will be, Ortiz has no heart and was a big let down, he was suppose to be the next Oscar De La Hoya and failed in the process, i hope Callazo beats his ass like Lopez did
I always felt Vargas was a fraud. He really got to his position using his mouth. He never really beat anyone of importance outside of Quartey and Winky. He used being a Mexican pretty boy like Oscar to his advantage. I always hated him.
Ortiz was the first fighter Oscar saw as his successor. Which, I guess I always dislike. When a fighter is forced on us as some sort of star. He made his name beating bums and then quit and whined after getting clobbered by Maidana. Fast forward to 2:45.
http://www.youtube.com/v/eGWYK4TvxaA
That was when the respect was thrown out the door. His fight vs. Berto was awesome, but he had no business jumping into the Ring with Floyd after that. Which makes me laugh that Floyd and his fans will clown Manny for fighting a guy like Clottey or Rios. I'm hoping he loses, too, but Collazo just looks good on Paper. He's lost every "big" fight he's been in.
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so has Lopez but he still made Ortiz quit
i think Callazo is a superior boxer then Ortiz and if he fights smart and boxes him he could win, but if he tries to throw hands with him he could get hurt or lose rounds to Victors more impact punches, if Ortiz loses i really hope i dont have to hear from him again and he just goes back to fighting bums or is a stepping stone for younger guys to get their break
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so has Lopez but he still made Ortiz quit
i think Callazo is a superior boxer then Ortiz and if he fights smart and boxes him he could win, but if he tries to throw hands with him he could get hurt or lose rounds to Victors more impact punches, if Ortiz loses i really hope i dont have to hear from him again and he just goes back to fighting bums or is a stepping stone for younger guys to get their break
You're right. Josesito was supposed to be a walk through for Ortiz and be broke his jaw. I don't see Ortiz over looking this fight. If he loses here, he's done. He'll be trying to break his contract like Guerrero is right now, because Golden Boy won't want to give him any worthwhile fights.
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so has Lopez but he still made Ortiz quit
i think Callazo is a superior boxer then Ortiz and if he fights smart and boxes him he could win, but if he tries to throw hands with him he could get hurt or lose rounds to Victors more impact punches, if Ortiz loses i really hope i dont have to hear from him again and he just goes back to fighting bums or is a stepping stone for younger guys to get their break
You're right. Josesito was supposed to be a walk through for Ortiz and be broke his jaw. I don't see Ortiz over looking this fight. If he loses here, he's done. He'll be trying to break his contract like Guerrero is right now, because Golden Boy won't want to give him any worthwhile fights.
A kid i once trained with named Jerry Belmonte's aka The Corpus Christi Kid was suppose to be Golden boys next big draw too, he sold well here in south texas then he went on a losing streak and he secretly cant wait until he's out his contract with Golden Boy, he told me they are setting him up for failure after his first loss...
but he cant draw a fuckin dime outside of texas anyways... but growing up you knew when you saw him at the gym he had something special, he could box and was hard to hit, i remember i was 13 in the boxing gym sparring against my best friends while Jerry was my age sparring against 17 year olds
Golden boy is a bit corrupt, Oscar can turn into the new Don King any time he wants...
I heard Dana white wants in on some boxing promotions, hopefully he can get the fights HBO vs Showtime cant or get what Arum vs Golden Boy cant...
the promotion is what is killing the sport and it has been for years
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^Loses'll kill you in Boxing. Your boy sounds just like Abner Mares. Abner was essentially on his way to being the next big thing. Real big pay days. Headlining shows at Staples (even though they were barely selling tickets). Getting HUGE paydays. Dude is driving a Panamera. And then,l he got KO'd this summer. His payday for this fight dropped significantly. The promotion for the fight dropped significantly. The love from Golden Boy is not there like it used to be. If he loses again, that's that. Though, he'd be better off out of Golden Boy since a lot of the talent in his weight fight for other promotions. I think that Kid you knew is the story of so many in Boxing. To even get to be a Pro, you have to be the absolute best in the Amateurs. You have to be the absolute best from your Gym. Your City. You have to be head and shoulders above the rest. And then you get to the Pro's and everyone else is like you. Now, to be successful, you have to be even better than them and it just doesn't work out.
I grew up with John Molina. Dude was on his way, too. Fighting on ESPN FNF, HBO and Showtime. Names like Broner came up as possible opponents. He walked into the right with Antonio Demarco in what was supposed to be a walk through and got KO'd. Demarco fought Broner 2 months later. Molina was about to be done for good when he was fighting Mickey Bey and was losing for the 3rd time in 4 fights. But, out of nowhere, he KO'd Bey in the last round.That round saved his career. Fast forward to the 1:35 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/v/LeiMLMg0tAs
All Promoters are crooks in Boxing. But, when Arum retires (or dies, which ever comes first), Boxing will see the Flood gates open. Whoever runs TR next would be willing to work with GBP and vice versa. Where the problem lies right now is the networks. HBO acts as another promoter on top of TR and they dictate the fights they want. Showtime takes what they can get and they have 2 of the best Weight classes in Boxing all to themselves, save for Manny. I see Arum as the domino that will spark the change.
Boxing Promoters are probably all afraid to see what Dana White will do with Boxing. He's behind a reality show about Boston's Boxing scene right now. The UFC model works for Fans AND the UFC as a company. It doesn't work for the Fighters. Your highest paid MMA guys are making nothing compared to Boxings top guys. Broner made 1.5 against Paulie. He would've been top paid in the UFC all year, on that one fight. Veteran fighters would reject it. Has to start with the next generation.
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A lot to discuss here...
Cotto is taking an big risk going to 160 (especially if they are going to the full weight limit), but if he wins, it will be a BIG statement. I don't see Floyd wanting a rematch with him, but Cotto-Alvarez would be a big fight, if they both win their upcoming fights. Golden Boy supposedly offered Cotto $10 million to fight Canelo, so if he beats Martinez, then he'll likely warrant a significantly bigger guarantee.
Mayorga isn't shit in the ring, but the guy is mad entertaining and talks a lot of shit... It's a shame he doesn't speak English. But I give the guy credit, he helps generate interest in the fight (particularly within the Spanish speaking demographic) but makes his peace with his opponents after. I thought it was cool how he legitimately apologized to Vargas and hugged him afterward, saying that it's just what he does to fuck with his opponents minds. And on that topic...
I used to root for Vargas (mostly because I grew up in Oxnard), but like someone else said, he had a hard time beating relevant guys toward the end of his career, losing to Trinidad, Oscar, Mosley, and even Mayorga. (But you could also say the same thing about Oscar.) He had an attitude, but it wasn't anything bad... just kind of typical of the Chicano bad asses from his age group in Oxnard. A lot of entertaining talk.
I never felt like Ortiz (ironically also from Oxnard) ever reminded me of Vargas, but I agree... if he loses his fight tomorrow, then that might be his swan song, as there won't really be any interest in watching him, given some of his more difficult losses that we've seen from him in the past several years. But if he wins, maybe they'll try to create buzz for Alvarez-Ortiz again (which was the plan before, until Ortiz got his jaw broken and lost).
Regarding the promoters... it's not all on Arum. If he isn't promoting anymore, whether he passes away or just bows out, yeah, it will be easier to make a lot more fights. But you could say the same thing if Golden Boy's leadership got dismantled. They basically deep throat Floyd all of the time, and it often involves them flinging dirt at Top Rank or whoever just to appease him and make it look like they're riding for him to keep his business. Obviously making the client happy is how to keep them, but they're firing a lot of warning shots in the process. They aren't even negotiating, but they have made it clear that there won't be a chance of a Mayweather-Pacquiao match unless Manny leaves Top Rank... and then a week ago, Richard Schaefer straight up called Manny a "desperate man." Seriously, that's not going to encourage Manny to leave his promoter to work with a guy who just called him desperate. Arum definitely isn't innocent, but as of recent, he hasn't been the one to talk shit worth mentioning to Golden Boy.
But if Floyd were truly independent (call it what you want, but when he fights only Golden Boy fighters exclusively and always uses their promotional services, then he's basically a Golden Boy fighter until he does a whole fight under his own steam or with some other promoter even once and not involve Golden Boy), then I have a feeling Golden Boy and Top Rank would play nice with each other. They used to... until Floyd came out of retirement.
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^Props.
Just to touch on the promoter situation:
If blame was a pie, the biggest slice would be given to Arum. He's been around forever. A lot of his tactics that he's using today are the same he used back in the day with Don King. There's a reason why he's still a top promoter so many years later. He's always had the leverage needed. But, with Floyd he lost that leverage. Al Haymon is the real reason why Golden Boy is in the driver seat.
Haymon should just be a promoter. But for whatever reason he loves to just be the "adviser." Almost every interview with his fighters is "I want to Thank God and Al Haymon." Haymon controls Floyd. Danny Garcia. Broner. Lara. Berto. Trout. Quillin. Keith Thurman. And more. These are some of the top guys and guess what banner they "fight" under? Golden Boy. So, now, all the leverage goes to Golden Boy because Arum's top guy fights in and around the weight class that all of Haymon's guys do. Golden Boy and Al Haymon are basically trying to force Arum out and he's refusing to leave.
If he was easier to work with, we would've seen a ton of fights happen by now. But, he has to face the fact that he's not getting Floyd back. And Manny might just go "independent" when his contract is up. If Arum left Top Rank, the last wall to break would be HBO. They are another large share of the blame pie.
Much like Arum, they've been on top forever. Losing Floyd hurt them, too. When Stephen Espinoza went to head up their competition, they threw down an ultimatum. Golden Boy called their bluff and really left HBO with very little.
SI.com: Taking Floyd away from HBO was a major coup for Showtime. Looking back, how were you able to do it?
SE: It was the result of a couple of things. One, the CBS platform was a big attraction for Floyd. Being able to be exposed not just on the CBS television network, but bringing in CBS Outdoor, CBS Interactive, CNET, TV Guide, TV.com and the whole range of assets, including the CBS Sports radio network, an outlet he didn't have access to. That was, from a business standpoint, the fundamental attraction.
From a non-business point, I think some irritations had built up [with HBO] over the years. A fresh start with someone that had a different perspective was probably appealing to him. After a year, in hindsight, I couldn't have asked for it to have gone any better. There were things I'd like to improve on, but overall, I'm thrilled with it
Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mma/news/20131223/showtime-stephen-espinoza-interview/#ixzz2rus1KWvk
It had nothing to do with the CBS Platform for Floyd. It was the latter part. HBO is notorious for wanting to control the situation. With the ex-attorney for Golden Boy having all of Golden Boy's fighters to himself, all the control is in the hands of Golden Boy. Why? Because Showtime is essentially an extension of Golden Boy. It's virtually their own network. They don't have competition. The Promoter can do as they please.
HBO now has Top Rank and the lesser options like Goosen, DiBella and even 50 Cent since he has dudes like Kirkland and Gamboa. That's a lot of Chiefs who do not want to be Indians. It's a free for all and old style Boxing politics made it that way for HBO and Top Rank.
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Just to touch on the promoter situation:
If blame was a pie, the biggest slice would be given to Arum. He's been around forever. A lot of his tactics that he's using today are the same he used back in the day with Don King. There's a reason why he's still a top promoter so many years later. He's always had the leverage needed. But, with Floyd he lost that leverage.
But if the guy has been around so long and acquiring talent, then he's been doing something right. Yes, he and Don King are from the old school, but it's not like we've been seeing Don King make a lot of moves or sign any of today's most prominent boxers. But you have to give him credit... he did help a lot of boxers become superstars. Yes, Oscar's and Floyd's biggest paydays came after their departures from Top Rank, but it's not like their popularity didn't increase from Arum's promotion. The kind of money they got after was just a result of striking out on your own, which happens in a number of industries... just look at the recording industry, when big successes finish up their recording contracts with whichever company signed them, then move on to form their own record label and release their own albums through it.
Al Haymon is the real reason why Golden Boy is in the driver seat.
Haymon should just be a promoter. But for whatever reason he loves to just be the "adviser." Almost every interview with his fighters is "I want to Thank God and Al Haymon." Haymon controls Floyd. Danny Garcia. Broner. Lara. Berto. Trout. Quillin. Keith Thurman. And more. These are some of the top guys and guess what banner they "fight" under? Golden Boy. So, now, all the leverage goes to Golden Boy because Arum's top guy fights in and around the weight class that all of Haymon's guys do. Golden Boy and Al Haymon are basically trying to force Arum out and he's refusing to leave.
Haymon is definitely in a powerful position, but staying out of the promotion category gives him a little bit of flexibility since he doesn't represent a specific brand that would get in the way... kind of like how trainers work with the fighter(s) specifically and don't really care much for the promotional banner. He and Golden Boy together, in an unofficial alliance, have a strong hand, but they don't quite have the leverage to force Arum out... at least not this year. Golden Boy does have Floyd essentially and a lot of other up-and-coming talent (which helps stack their undercards legitimately, which helps get another couple hundred thousand PPV buys -- as something like Canelo vs. Mosley definitely helped encourage people to buy Mayweather vs. Cotto), but Top Rank is still home to Manny, at least until the end of 2014. Bradley re-signed for another year (and, when asked about why, made a good point about declining a contract extension with Top Rank wouldn't guarantee him a Mayweather fight). Marquez is still there. Cotto is on his own and did do some business with Golden Boy, but he maintains good ties with Top Rank and is working with them again, so Arum can't be THAT bad if Cotto has the freedom to go wherever but still works with them willingly. Rios-Alvarado III is still something we want to see, even if they're both coming off of losses.
If he was easier to work with, we would've seen a ton of fights happen by now. But, he has to face the fact that he's not getting Floyd back. And Manny might just go "independent" when his contract is up. If Arum left Top Rank, the last wall to break would be HBO. They are another large share of the blame pie.
Top Rank and Golden Boy did play nice for quite a while, like I said, and we got a lot of memorable fights out of it... Cotto-Mosley, De La Hoya-Pacquiao, Mosley-Margarito, Pacquiao-Hatton, etc. De La Hoya-Cotto was even supposed to happen, until Cotto lost to Margarito. So they made it work before. And like I said before, the rift wasn't there until Floyd came back. Not saying it's Floyd's fault, but it's just an interesting coincidence.
But Arum was never going to get Floyd "back." He never said anything about making Floyd sign to Top Rank, as it's generally always been a joint effort between Top Rank and Golden Boy negotiating the terms, with both sides talking shit about each other and blaming the other side for some reason while going to the media to say whatever (it's happening, it's not happening, it's close to being finalized, the fight is off, etc.). However, outside of Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, I will say that Golden Boy has probably made more concessions than Top Rank... but in the actual Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations, I personally place more blame on Golden Boy and Team Mayweather.
With the talk of trying to chop down Top Rank and HBO... you're basically just talking about creating a monopoly, which would obviously make fights easier to make, but a monopoly isn't always a good thing.
Much like Arum, they've been on top forever. Losing Floyd hurt them, too. When Stephen Espinoza went to head up their competition, they threw down an ultimatum. Golden Boy called their bluff and really left HBO with very little.
It had nothing to do with the CBS Platform for Floyd. It was the latter part. HBO is notorious for wanting to control the situation. With the ex-attorney for Golden Boy having all of Golden Boy's fighters to himself, all the control is in the hands of Golden Boy. Why? Because Showtime is essentially an extension of Golden Boy. It's virtually their own network. They don't have competition. The Promoter can do as they please.
HBO now has Top Rank and the lesser options like Goosen, DiBella and even 50 Cent since he has dudes like Kirkland and Gamboa. That's a lot of Chiefs who do not want to be Indians. It's a free for all and old style Boxing politics made it that way for HBO and Top Rank.
I wouldn't say that HBO was on top forever. Remember that a lot of the older fights from the '90s were Showtime... I believe Holyfield-Tyson II was on Showtime, and that held the PPV record until De La Hoya-Mayweather. I could be wrong, but I feel like Showtime did a good job at getting the heavyweight fights, while HBO seemed to get a lot of the other fights.
HBO had a stronghold on boxing for a lot of the 2000s to now, but realistically, you have to give some props to Arum for Showtime coming back. Remember that he took his fights to Showtime in 2011, and they did really well... only then did we hear about the possibility of utilizing CBS and a lot of the associated networks. (Remember that when Floyd was asked if he was going to watch Pacquiao-Mosley on Showtime, he said that he would instead be watching Lady Gaga perform on HBO.) That move lost HBO some money, and they even fired one of their execs for losing that business, particularly Pacquiao-Mosley (which did generate 1.3 million PPV buys). I'm not saying that Arum is what helped Showtime become what they are, but the short stint with Showtime deserves to be on a timeline of events leading to what you are describing. It shook up HBO a little bit while giving Showtime a shot to flex in modern day boxing promotion.
But I don't think it's a problem of "old style boxing politics" causing the rifts. It's just a clash between the old promoters who still manage to stay relevant (otherwise they'd have faded away by now and lost all of their talent) and the new promoters, who learned from their previous experiences as fighters themselves but now work with fighters who they give far more control to and let them dictate their own terms... yes, it's great for the fighters, but when the fighter is being unreasonable, there's really no one in a position to tell them to stop being a diva. It's like that in basketball too (except it's teams instead of promoters)... in a day and age where damn near everyone good enough to be on the All-Star team is getting eight figures annually -- remember that Michael Jordan didn't get that until his last two seasons with the Bulls when he had already won four rings going into that -- people are bowing down to the players a little more than they should to the point where the players think that they are bigger than the sport. It's not to say that they aren't good at what they do or deserve what they are getting paid, but people are being extremely ungrateful and acting like they rule the world.
50 is part of the new generation of promoters, but it seems like he understands it. He's a good businessman (you don't build a $300 million fortune by accident), and he's said time and time again that he thought it was stupid for Floyd to brush aside a fight with Manny when interest was at its peak. Yes, it's Manny's fault for not having won either of his fights in 2012, but you can't expect interest to continuously peak (or at least stay at its peak) over the course of a number of years when considering that boxing is a risky sport where anything could happen. It would've been a good time for someone down with Floyd to sit down with him and just tell him to just take the fight when the other guy has already agreed to the terms that he has changed time and time again. But think about it... 50 was viewed as being best friends with Floyd but eventually split from TMT and did his own thing, and maintains a decent relationship with Arum (remember he put Gamboa on the Pacquiao-Marquez IV undercard). Does that say anything?
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Aaaand good night, Mr. Ortiz
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well that was short.. didnt see that coming... have fun being a janitor Victor Ortiz
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Yeah... three straight early endings (and not even losses by decision) means it's time to hang up his gloves and just enjoy the cash he made, unless he invested poorly... then he'll be at the temp agency.
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well that was short.. didnt see that coming... have fun being a janitor Victor Ortiz
You called it dude. Wow.
@Deez
A monopoly in Boxing wouldn't be a bad thing, per se. Think about MMA. When the UFC bought out and brought over Pride, WEC and Strikeforce, they were able to make fights that people wanted to see. From a fans perspective, it's great. This is what I like about the GBP/Showtime relationship. I wouldn't mind if all of Boxing was like this.
Arum has done great things, I'm not taking away anything from him. But, it's time to move on. You cannot hold on to past achievements forever. And that's what we're doing with Arum. I still contend that he's lacking the fire power for leverage. He has 2 of the best fighters in the world in Ward and Rigo and either fighters are avoiding them or the network is avoiding them (or both). He has Bradley that most people don't want to fight. Marquez who's too busy crying after every single loss. Rios, Alvarado and Prodvodnikov are essentially he's biggest draws. He has no real say over what Cotto can and can't do and quite frankly wouldn't shoot himself in the foot and send over another big name to Golden Boy. That's why he's open to working with 50. DiBella. etc. Because they A, have fighters he needs to put on good fights with own fighters and B, they're name's are not big enough to take up half the banner.
Beyond Floyd and Manny, they struggled to put together Mares/Donaire. At the time, Donaire was the man and Mares was the up and comer. Top Rank used that leverage. So, now, the shoe is on the other foot and Golden Boy is doing the same. They all have blame in this, but that's why I really put it on Arum. All of his tactics that he's pulled on others are being shoved back in his face and it's hurting boxing. I feel Floyd has been a huge problem in making the fight with Manny, but that's why I don't like the idea of Boxers essentially calling their own shots. Even when the Alaphabets try to force a fighter into a fight, they'll just drop the belt, move weight classes or flat out decline.
As for HBO, they've always been in the drivers seat. There's been pockets where Showtime would sneak in and have a good year or 2, but when you thought Boxing, you always thought HBO. When you thought of big fights, you thought of HBO. Until of course Showtime got Floyd.
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A monopoly in Boxing wouldn't be a bad thing, per se. Think about MMA. When the UFC bought out and brought over Pride, WEC and Strikeforce, they were able to make fights that people wanted to see. From a fans perspective, it's great. This is what I like about the GBP/Showtime relationship. I wouldn't mind if all of Boxing was like this.
I agree, and MMA is a great example, but what Golden Boy is trying to do is a little different. They don't want to merge or unite under a single banner, they straight up want to kill off Top Rank and pick up the pieces (in this case, the fighters) because they hate Arum while basically dissing their fighters in the process. And whether they merge, overtake, etc., that still doesn't guarantee fights happening. Floyd always talks about being his own boss, and in a lot of ways he is, but again the diva shit gets in the way. Like Bradley said in a recent interview when asked about why he agreed to a contract extension when it would prevent him from taking some fights (i.e. Floyd), he said that it's not like NOT re-signing with Top Rank would have guaranteed him a shot. And it's not like Golden Boy would force Floyd to fight anyone anyway, versus MMA having mandatory matches that they make happen.
Arum has done great things, I'm not taking away anything from him. But, it's time to move on. You cannot hold on to past achievements forever. And that's what we're doing with Arum. I still contend that he's lacking the fire power for leverage. He has 2 of the best fighters in the world in Ward and Rigo and either fighters are avoiding them or the network is avoiding them (or both). He has Bradley that most people don't want to fight. Marquez who's too busy crying after every single loss. Rios, Alvarado and Prodvodnikov are essentially he's biggest draws. He has no real say over what Cotto can and can't do and quite frankly wouldn't shoot himself in the foot and send over another big name to Golden Boy. That's why he's open to working with 50. DiBella. etc. Because they A, have fighters he needs to put on good fights with own fighters and B, they're name's are not big enough to take up half the banner.
Arum has definitely lost some ground, but he still has firepower. He has the second-biggest draw in all of boxing. And legally speaking, Golden Boy doesn't even have the first, since Floyd is not officially signed to Golden Boy (even though he works with them exclusively). But outside of Floyd, who does Golden Boy have who is actually a big draw (when not fighting Floyd)? They have a lot more of a supporting cast, and it helps them build more solid undercards that help fuel PPV buys, but it's not like they have an arsenal of fighters who rack up buys as good as Manny. Cotto-Margarito II and Marquez-Bradley were both pretty successful for what they were, and it's not like Golden Boy's best non-Floyd matches were any better in terms of PPV success.
Beyond Floyd and Manny, they struggled to put together Mares/Donaire. At the time, Donaire was the man and Mares was the up and comer. Top Rank used that leverage. So, now, the shoe is on the other foot and Golden Boy is doing the same. They all have blame in this, but that's why I really put it on Arum. All of his tactics that he's pulled on others are being shoved back in his face and it's hurting boxing. I feel Floyd has been a huge problem in making the fight with Manny, but that's why I don't like the idea of Boxers essentially calling their own shots. Even when the Alaphabets try to force a fighter into a fight, they'll just drop the belt, move weight classes or flat out decline.
I agree. And the Floyd thing you mentioned is something I also addressed. Just as the sanctioning bodies can't exactly "force" a fight (since the belt can always be vacated, if the fighter doesn't feel like fighting the mandatory challenger), again, a single boxing promotion banner would not force any fights either... not to say that it wouldn't make it easier, but again, there's still no guarantee. Floyd could still say no, or make his conditions even more absurd than before.
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what a shame HBO didnt broadcast GGG's excellent fight today...
i say Golvkin vs Martinez soon... thats of course if Cotto isnt in the way,
i think there is gonna be a good tournament going on in friday night fights, between lightweights and middleweights...
but i hate how Barthemy got his title tooken away because supposedly he hit after the bell but really its the ref's fault, but the sounds Teddy's weird ass were making during that knockout were funny, but for once i agree with Teddy and think Barthemy shouldnt have been stripped, but a rematch will atleast be anticipated now
Friday Night Fights on ESPN is becoming fun again just because Tyson is promoting now, and last year i even saw Vince Vaughn promoting a fight, i never thought one of my favorite actors would even promote lol this could be 50 Cents gateway into boxing if FNF can keep putting good matches for the rest of the year
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I agree, and MMA is a great example, but what Golden Boy is trying to do is a little different. They don't want to merge or unite under a single banner, they straight up want to kill off Top Rank and pick up the pieces (in this case, the fighters) because they hate Arum while basically dissing their fighters in the process. And whether they merge, overtake, etc., that still doesn't guarantee fights happening. Floyd always talks about being his own boss, and in a lot of ways he is, but again the diva shit gets in the way. Like Bradley said in a recent interview when asked about why he agreed to a contract extension when it would prevent him from taking some fights (i.e. Floyd), he said that it's not like NOT re-signing with Top Rank would have guaranteed him a shot. And it's not like Golden Boy would force Floyd to fight anyone anyway, versus MMA having mandatory matches that they make happen.
Yeah, I agree. Golden Boy is trying to cut off the head of Top Rank, but I really think a lot of that is a function of who's running Top Rank. I honestly feel that if there was a younger person running Top Rank, it'd be easier for all sides to work together. All fighters to an extent are their own boss, especially when they're as big as Floyd. As far as Bradley goes, he realizes that he's too good defensively to get a shot at Floyd. Floyd and his people only take fights against young inexperienced fighters or fighters with absolutely no power/no defense. Bradley has the Defense and sticks to his game plan, something that Floyd hates. THAT, to me, is why Bradley has no issue sticking with TR. The whole idea of running Boxing like MMA wouldn't work with these fighters. It'd have to be put in place and ran with young fighters. But, what you'll see is more "stars" and belts will mean something.
Arum has definitely lost some ground, but he still has firepower. He has the second-biggest draw in all of boxing. And legally speaking, Golden Boy doesn't even have the first, since Floyd is not officially signed to Golden Boy (even though he works with them exclusively). But outside of Floyd, who does Golden Boy have who is actually a big draw (when not fighting Floyd)? They have a lot more of a supporting cast, and it helps them build more solid undercards that help fuel PPV buys, but it's not like they have an arsenal of fighters who rack up buys as good as Manny. Cotto-Margarito II and Marquez-Bradley were both pretty successful for what they were, and it's not like Golden Boy's best non-Floyd matches were any better in terms of PPV success.
Broner is actually a big draw, surprisingly. He put up great numbers all year and that was on Showtime. Canelo obviously will still sell PPV's because he'll have the entire Mexican community behind him. They might not put up numbers like Manny, but lately his numbers haven't been great. Broner and Canelo are still really young. They have the opportunity of growing and becoming even bigger draws. Manny is still number 2, but he's not really improving numbers wise. By the way, did you see what Arum said about undercards? This is why this dude needs to go.
what a shame HBO didnt broadcast GGG's excellent fight today...
i say Golvkin vs Martinez soon... thats of course if Cotto isnt in the way,
i think there is gonna be a good tournament going on in friday night fights, between lightweights and middleweights...
but i hate how Barthemy got his title tooken away because supposedly he hit after the bell but really its the ref's fault, but the sounds Teddy's weird ass were making during that knockout were funny, but for once i agree with Teddy and think Barthemy shouldnt have been stripped, but a rematch will atleast be anticipated now
Friday Night Fights on ESPN is becoming fun again just because Tyson is promoting now, and last year i even saw Vince Vaughn promoting a fight, i never thought one of my favorite actors would even promote lol this could be 50 Cents gateway into boxing if FNF can keep putting good matches for the rest of the year
GGG is such a beast. HBO screwed up, big time. He picked the guy apart, as usual.
I heard about the tournament on FNF, I'll have to check that out.
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Has Mayweather announced his next fight? As for ducking Bradley, you really think so?
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Has Mayweather announced his next fight? As for ducking Bradley, you really think so?
Mayweather is "letting fans" decide whether he fights Khan or Maidana. I don't know if it's necessarily ducking Bradley, but you do not see a ton of fighters clamoring to fight the guy. He struggled to find a fight after the 1st Pacquiao fight. His style has a lot to do with it. Kinda like Rigondeaux.
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Yeah, I agree. Golden Boy is trying to cut off the head of Top Rank, but I really think a lot of that is a function of who's running Top Rank. I honestly feel that if there was a younger person running Top Rank, it'd be easier for all sides to work together. All fighters to an extent are their own boss, especially when they're as big as Floyd. As far as Bradley goes, he realizes that he's too good defensively to get a shot at Floyd. Floyd and his people only take fights against young inexperienced fighters or fighters with absolutely no power/no defense. Bradley has the Defense and sticks to his game plan, something that Floyd hates. THAT, to me, is why Bradley has no issue sticking with TR. The whole idea of running Boxing like MMA wouldn't work with these fighters. It'd have to be put in place and ran with young fighters. But, what you'll see is more "stars" and belts will mean something.
While Arum runs Top Rank, Todd Duboef does help out too... and his responsibilities do vary (as he's stepped in when Arum wasn't available) and apparently has a much better relationship with people outside of Top Rank. But at the same time, the HEAD guy only does so much. Oscar has been in rehab and Golden Boy is still sailing along, even though Schaefer is a PR nightmare, with all of the trash he talks. He doesn't know how to ignore stuff or let stuff go, he always needs to throw one last jab in.
But at the end of the day, it's the promotional companies that are paying the boxers who claim that they are their own boss, and not the boxers putting up the money to have the event set up. What would be great would be if Golden Boy could man up for once with Floyd and say, "Fight this guy who we and the boxing world wants you to fight, then you get your $50 million guarantee, but if you fight who YOU want to fight but very few people care to see you fight him, then you get a $25 million guarantee... take it or leave it." Seriously, what is Floyd going to do? All he knows is Top Rank (who he won't go back to) and Golden Boy. He's not realistically going to just put together some random team of people who are going to have the promotional capabilities of those giants. Lou DiBella probably doesn't have the capital to do it. He won't want to go back to 50 Cent when they already split from each other. It would be a good wake up call to him, with how much he has toyed with the boxing world. Even Floyd fans have suffered for it at times, as they (like every other fan) have wanted to see him fight Manny while cringing at some of the garbage we've been given instead in the meantime, regardless of how successful it was... yet his guarantees have only gone up.
Broner is actually a big draw, surprisingly. He put up great numbers all year and that was on Showtime. Canelo obviously will still sell PPV's because he'll have the entire Mexican community behind him. They might not put up numbers like Manny, but lately his numbers haven't been great. Broner and Canelo are still really young. They have the opportunity of growing and becoming even bigger draws. Manny is still number 2, but he's not really improving numbers wise. By the way, did you see what Arum said about undercards? This is why this dude needs to go.
Canelo is much more famous now than he used to be, but he's not really supported by the entire Mexican community to the point where they will all buy his fights... don't let the 2.2 million PPV buys of Mayweather-Alvarez fool you. I'd say Marquez has a more loyal following, within the Mexican community. Expect Canelo's next PPV fight to do 300,000 at best, especially since it's not like he made any statements against Floyd or won any new fans by losing and not really being able to tag him.
Manny's numbers will improve, though the dip in his PPV sales was expected, though 475,000 buys was a little disappointing regardless. But it was ONE disappointing event, one that happened to be following two losses while being against another guy coming off of a loss and taking place overseas in China. Off the top of my head:
De La Hoya-Pacquiao: 1.25M
Pacquiao-Hatton: 850k
Pacquiao-Cotto: 1.25M
Pacquiao-Clottey: 700k
Pacquiao-Margarito: 1.15M
Pacquiao-Mosley: 1.3M
Pacquiao-Marquez III: 1.45M
Pacquiao-Bradley: 900k
Pacquiao-Marquez IV: 1.15M
Pacquiao-Rios: 475k
Big dip, for sure. But the circumstances going into the fight justify it, but there wasn't really a significant pattern of decreasing interest that can't be explained. And coming off of the momentum of winning again and returning to Vegas, it should bring back some interest. Not to legitimize the win over Rios (who we didn't really expect to come close to winning unless he got off a lucky punch), but he was always someone who struggled making weight in the lower categories, so people figured he'd be right at home at 147. He even said that he could focus more on actually training, since a lot of his previous training camps involved him having to cut a lot of weight.
Has Mayweather announced his next fight? As for ducking Bradley, you really think so?
I don't think Mayweather is ducking Bradley, but Bradley re-signing with Top Rank makes it just as difficult as a Manny fight. While Floyd is likely more confident about beating Bradley than Manny, to be consistent, he'll have to use the same excuse about his opponents having no ties to Arum as one of his requirements. Floyd won't need to fear Bradley's punches (which really aren't that hard), but maybe Floyd knows Bradley might be a little harder to tag than most of his opponents who are generally more offensive-minded and try to go in for the money shot.
Mayweather is "letting fans" decide whether he fights Khan or Maidana. I don't know if it's necessarily ducking Bradley, but you do not see a ton of fighters clamoring to fight the guy. He struggled to find a fight after the 1st Pacquiao fight. His style has a lot to do with it. Kinda like Rigondeaux.
But how is that happening? Unless things changed and Broner is giving up on the rematch clause with Maidana, then Maidana isn't going to be available for May. While Floyd has a shit ton of money either way, I think he'll definitely want to cover that $10 million loss from betting on the Broncos. He can deny that he made the bet all he wants, but when the denial only comes out AFTER the Broncos lost though the initial reports of the alleged bet came out a week ago... it's a little suspect, especially when the one report coming out denying it was from somebody who is his massage therapist, who apparently is well aware of what bets Floyd makes.
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I hate Schaefer. He's a douche, just like Arum. But, I think he has far less influence over any fights and such in comparison to Arum.
I'd love for GB to give Floyd an ultimatum like that, they'd never do it. Promoters are too afraid of losing out on a pay day. At the end of it all, Floyd will go where ever he has to for the money. He bad mouths Oscar every chance he gets, but he's lining his pockets nicely. Floyd can put any feelings to the side for the money. There are no other promoters with the money or clout to promote Floyd properly. Not even 50.
We'll see what numbers Canelo does with this next fight. He's not quite at Marquez's status, but he's also 15 or so years younger. He'll be there sooner than later. Manny is getting older and his competition isn't getting better. Better promotion and a better story line will give this fight with Bradley more buys, but where does he go from here? Marquez V? Ruslan?
Maidana fighting Floyd is Golden Boy (and more importantly Haymon) telling everyone else: Floyd gets first pick, you get what he leaves behind. And I agree 100%. Floyd did bet that money. He just didn't want to look like a loser. Had he not bet, why didn't he say something sooner?
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I hate Schaefer. He's a douche, just like Arum. But, I think he has far less influence over any fights and such in comparison to Arum.
Well yeah... Arum is actually a promoter who has been promoting for decades, including a lot of the greatest fights in boxing history. Schaefer's background is in banking and finances, and he got involved in promotion with Oscar around ten years ago or so. Schaefer has definitely helped Oscar build Golden Boy into a huge company, particularly if you focus on the money generated -- can't deny that. But very few of their fights had an epic feel to them, when the fight was over, in the sense of knowing that it's a fight that would be talked about for years.
I'd love for GB to give Floyd an ultimatum like that, they'd never do it. Promoters are too afraid of losing out on a pay day. At the end of it all, Floyd will go where ever he has to for the money. He bad mouths Oscar every chance he gets, but he's lining his pockets nicely. Floyd can put any feelings to the side for the money. There are no other promoters with the money or clout to promote Floyd properly. Not even 50.
They would never do it... but they could. Again, the only other company large enough and with the proper experience to work with Floyd would be Top Rank, but he'll never do that. I would say that 50 might have the money and clout to do it... but the problem with 50 is that he doesn't have enough fighters signed to him exclusively to put together an event (since it would require some undercard matches) unless he did a joint effort with someone else (hence negating using SMS Promotions in the first place instead of Golden Boy or Top Rank), plus he only recently got his promoters license in Nevada (as at first he only had it in New York).
We'll see what numbers Canelo does with this next fight. He's not quite at Marquez's status, but he's also 15 or so years younger. He'll be there sooner than later. Manny is getting older and his competition isn't getting better. Better promotion and a better story line will give this fight with Bradley more buys, but where does he go from here? Marquez V? Ruslan?
We can forecast what might happen to him in the future, but it doesn't necessarily serve as an indication of how successful his next fight will be. And while Canelo was a good opponent for Floyd, he doesn't have that warrior spirit or the flair that sells that fighter (rather than the fighter pairing). People watched Oscar because he was the Golden Boy. People watch Floyd because they want to see him either completely outclass his opponent or lose for the first time, since he's a big talker. People watch Manny because they know the other person is going to get his face bruised up. Canelo doesn't have that factor yet, and it comes from doing something that pulls a crowd beyond your own community.
Considering how the Pacquiao-Bradley I did 900k buys when Bradley was still relatively unknown, it's very possible that the next fight should break a million, considering how Manny dominated Rios in his last fight (so there's the "he's back" view), plus Bradley has built up his credibility as a fighter by beating Provodnikov in a war (one that really helped him regain some respect with it being a potential fight-of-the-year since a lot of people were hating on him after he got the split decision win over Manny) and also beating Marquez. And then there's the storyline about the first fight's outcome.
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Schaefer is a business man, nothing more. Oscar made the smart decision of actually having a business man run his company. But, Schaefer is just a face, a talking head. Boxing decisions are made elsewhere for GB.
I don't know what 50's net worth is, but I don't know that he has the money to put up for a Floyd fight. Maybe in a few years, but right now, I really only see 2 parties with the funds: Top Rank and Golden Boy.
Canelo isn't your prototypical Mexican fighter. But, he has a ton of appeal. Mexicans love the guy. My mother in law knows absolutely nothing about sports. She mentioned to me that Canelo was fighting soon. I couldn't believe it. He co-workers (all Mexican ladies) were talking about it. His legend is growing and it will only grow as long as he continues to win. A lot of people loved Oscar, but your Mexican Nationals and your "Chicano" populations all hated him because he wasn't a "real" Mexican. Canelo gets all that crowd, as well as the Mexican Americans. Canelo's legend is all built on his appearance and himself, not even his performance. That's why I really think he's only going to continue to get bigger. GB is only going to find safer fights for the guy to build him. Once he learns English, he'll be able to bring in the rest of the population. But, in Boxing, having the Mexican crowd behind you is huge.
I think the Pacquiao/Bradley fight will do decent numbers. But, he has to do over a Mil for it to be considered a success. Floyd did 900 or so against Guerrerro and that was a flop. For the case to be made, Manny has to crush Bradley and put up big PPV numbers. That takes away the GB/Floyd excuses.
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Schaefer is a business man, nothing more. Oscar made the smart decision of actually having a business man run his company. But, Schaefer is just a face, a talking head. Boxing decisions are made elsewhere for GB.
I don't know what 50's net worth is, but I don't know that he has the money to put up for a Floyd fight. Maybe in a few years, but right now, I really only see 2 parties with the funds: Top Rank and Golden Boy.
Schaefer makes sure that they don't run out of money, and that their investments make them more money... and he does that well, and Golden Boy has become a powerhouse, since they have the financials to keep paying Floyd. I think 50's net worth is around $300 million, and he seems to be pretty good with his business decisions. I'd say to set up a Floyd fight (assuming it's not with Manny), you'll need at least $100 million readily available to play with, as far as paying out guarantees, legal fees, promotion, renting venues, etc., though of course you can get some money coming in right away from advertising, broadcasting deals, etc.
Canelo isn't your prototypical Mexican fighter. But, he has a ton of appeal. Mexicans love the guy. My mother in law knows absolutely nothing about sports. She mentioned to me that Canelo was fighting soon. I couldn't believe it. He co-workers (all Mexican ladies) were talking about it. His legend is growing and it will only grow as long as he continues to win. A lot of people loved Oscar, but your Mexican Nationals and your "Chicano" populations all hated him because he wasn't a "real" Mexican. Canelo gets all that crowd, as well as the Mexican Americans. Canelo's legend is all built on his appearance and himself, not even his performance. That's why I really think he's only going to continue to get bigger. GB is only going to find safer fights for the guy to build him. Once he learns English, he'll be able to bring in the rest of the population. But, in Boxing, having the Mexican crowd behind you is huge.
Mexicans love him because he's likely the next Mexican star, and they are very supportive of their own fighters, even though there are so many of them. Yes, his legend will grow, but he's already lost, which kind of takes away from his appeal, since him being undefeated was a big part of what made him a good choice for a Mayweather fight. He can regain the appeal, but he would really need to kick things up a notch. And like I said, it takes growing a big fanbase outside of your own community to become successful. Just look at Manny... while Filipinos don't represent a big chunk of the population, obviously if he didn't make a breakthrough with the other demographics, he wouldn't have been racking up PPV buys the way he was from 2008-2012.
Oscar still had the support of the Mexican community, even though he was always more Mexican-American to them. But remember when he was young, he still spoke with a somewhat heavy accent ("goad maydoe" instead of gold medal). But the crowd was split when he'd face the "true" Mexicans like JCC, though of course beating him twice won him some points. Fernando Vargas was always very much in touch with the Chicano community, and that was a big thing he pushed when he trying to get a fight with Oscar, calling him a sellout and basically trying to out-Mexican him too. But he still won, and it's not like the Mexicans who were rooting for the other Mexican booed him.
I think the Pacquiao/Bradley fight will do decent numbers. But, he has to do over a Mil for it to be considered a success. Floyd did 900 or so against Guerrerro and that was a flop. For the case to be made, Manny has to crush Bradley and put up big PPV numbers. That takes away the GB/Floyd excuses.
Not to hold them to different standards when numbers are numbers, but look at who they were dealing with and also what kind of money they were investing and how much they would need in order to recoup the money and what they were expecting. Aside from being undefeated, Floyd takes a lot of pride in PPV buys (and the subsequent revenue). Additionally, when they are giving the guy a $32 million guarantee, you pay that amount because you are expecting a lot to be generated and a shit ton of profit. It's like Hollywood... no company wants to invest $150 million into a movie if it's only going to make $160 million. Yes, it's profit, but it takes a lot to pull the money together and make a big event. Companies put out Batman and Marvel movies because they know their $200+ million investment will be multiplied. So with Mayweather-Guerrero, the PPV generated probably around $55 million... which, after Mayweather's $32 million is paid (and he likely didn't get more than his guarantee since it was so high but the PPV sales weren't), Guerrero got his $3 million guarantee, paying all of the employees, promotion, etc., then the profit they generated ended up being what you could get out of a CD account, but without all the hassle. To be fair, similarly, Pacquiao-Rios was also a bit of a dud, but Manny did take a paycut, going from $26 million (which he got against Marquez, even though it was still following a loss in a fight where he also got $26 million) to $18 million.
But yes... that fight needs to be a good one, but realistically speaking, Floyd and Golden Boy aren't magically going to cave in for a late 2014 fight while Manny is still with Top Rank. Expect the winner to likely face off against Marquez again. Yes, it will be yet another fight between Pacquiao and Marquez, but it's not like people don't want to see it.
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Schaefer makes sure that they don't run out of money, and that their investments make them more money... and he does that well, and Golden Boy has become a powerhouse, since they have the financials to keep paying Floyd. I think 50's net worth is around $300 million, and he seems to be pretty good with his business decisions. I'd say to set up a Floyd fight (assuming it's not with Manny), you'll need at least $100 million readily available to play with, as far as paying out guarantees, legal fees, promotion, renting venues, etc., though of course you can get some money coming in right away from advertising, broadcasting deals, etc.
Yeah, that's why I'm saying, 50 doesn't have the money to do that. If 50 is spending 1/3 of his money, he could easily go broke. He could bring in investors and that would definitely make him a strong player, because then money is no issue. Oscar's net worth is somewhere around 200 Mil or so. But, he has investors galore which makes Golden Boy that strong. I don't know if 50 has any people investing in his company right now.
Mexicans love him because he's likely the next Mexican star, and they are very supportive of their own fighters, even though there are so many of them. Yes, his legend will grow, but he's already lost, which kind of takes away from his appeal, since him being undefeated was a big part of what made him a good choice for a Mayweather fight. He can regain the appeal, but he would really need to kick things up a notch. And like I said, it takes growing a big fanbase outside of your own community to become successful. Just look at Manny... while Filipinos don't represent a big chunk of the population, obviously if he didn't make a breakthrough with the other demographics, he wouldn't have been racking up PPV buys the way he was from 2008-2012.
Oscar still had the support of the Mexican community, even though he was always more Mexican-American to them. But remember when he was young, he still spoke with a somewhat heavy accent ("goad maydoe" instead of gold medal). But the crowd was split when he'd face the "true" Mexicans like JCC, though of course beating him twice won him some points. Fernando Vargas was always very much in touch with the Chicano community, and that was a big thing he pushed when he trying to get a fight with Oscar, calling him a sellout and basically trying to out-Mexican him too. But he still won, and it's not like the Mexicans who were rooting for the other Mexican booed him.
Right now, every "star" in Boxing not named Manny, Floyd, Marquez or Cotto are strictly becoming stars based on forecasting. Canelo is no different. I don't know of too many Mexican people who were upset that Canelo lost and don't really hold it against him. Marquez had 3 losses by the time he lost to Manny for the 1st time. After getting routed by Floyd, he was up to 5. On his last fight with Manny, he walked in with 6 total losses and Mexicans couldn't have cared less. The key is, like you said, other demographics. Canelo needs to learn english, that's what really helped Manny. If was speaking Tagalog instead of English, his buys would be increasingly lower.
Oscar was "American-Mexican" to a lot of people. If anyone wanted to get the Mexicans on their side against Oscar, they'd just use that card. Of course, people eventually got over it, but Mexicans hold the "real Mexican" issue very close and are happy when a "real one" pops up and has success. I thought Marquez had cured Cancer the night he beat Manny. The response from the people was crazy.
Not to hold them to different standards when numbers are numbers, but look at who they were dealing with and also what kind of money they were investing and how much they would need in order to recoup the money and what they were expecting. Aside from being undefeated, Floyd takes a lot of pride in PPV buys (and the subsequent revenue). Additionally, when they are giving the guy a $32 million guarantee, you pay that amount because you are expecting a lot to be generated and a shit ton of profit. It's like Hollywood... no company wants to invest $150 million into a movie if it's only going to make $160 million. Yes, it's profit, but it takes a lot to pull the money together and make a big event. Companies put out Batman and Marvel movies because they know their $200+ million investment will be multiplied. So with Mayweather-Guerrero, the PPV generated probably around $55 million... which, after Mayweather's $32 million is paid (and he likely didn't get more than his guarantee since it was so high but the PPV sales weren't), Guerrero got his $3 million guarantee, paying all of the employees, promotion, etc., then the profit they generated ended up being what you could get out of a CD account, but without all the hassle. To be fair, similarly, Pacquiao-Rios was also a bit of a dud, but Manny did take a paycut, going from $26 million (which he got against Marquez, even though it was still following a loss in a fight where he also got $26 million) to $18 million.
But yes... that fight needs to be a good one, but realistically speaking, Floyd and Golden Boy aren't magically going to cave in for a late 2014 fight while Manny is still with Top Rank. Expect the winner to likely face off against Marquez again. Yes, it will be yet another fight between Pacquiao and Marquez, but it's not like people don't want to see it.
Marquez wanted nothing to do with Manny, but now that he was offered Provodnikov he changed his tune.
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Yeah, that's why I'm saying, 50 doesn't have the money to do that. If 50 is spending 1/3 of his money, he could easily go broke. He could bring in investors and that would definitely make him a strong player, because then money is no issue. Oscar's net worth is somewhere around 200 Mil or so. But, he has investors galore which makes Golden Boy that strong. I don't know if 50 has any people investing in his company right now.
50 won't go broke from setting up a major fight, as long as the event doesn't suck... which isn't THAT hard. It wouldn't be too hard for him to get investors if he wanted. He's probably mentioned in Forbes far more frequently than Oscar. Even just within his peers from within the hip-hop industry, he's already close to Eminem ($150 million net worth), Dr. Dre ($350 million net worth) and then of course people like Puff ($450 million net worth) and Jay ($450 million net worth). Plus a lot of those guys are venturing outside of hip-hop, so they might be willing to try something new. And again, 50 has a lot of business ventures and likely has networked with a lot of people who have the coin to make it happen.
Right now, every "star" in Boxing not named Manny, Floyd, Marquez or Cotto are strictly becoming stars based on forecasting. Canelo is no different. I don't know of too many Mexican people who were upset that Canelo lost and don't really hold it against him. Marquez had 3 losses by the time he lost to Manny for the 1st time. After getting routed by Floyd, he was up to 5. On his last fight with Manny, he walked in with 6 total losses and Mexicans couldn't have cared less. The key is, like you said, other demographics. Canelo needs to learn english, that's what really helped Manny. If was speaking Tagalog instead of English, his buys would be increasingly lower.
But no one really expected Canelo to win (even though his size and undefeated record going into the fight made it interesting), just like how no one expected Marquez to win against Floyd either... so neither lost any of their loyal following. But Marquez maintained is following by being great to watch, from being very technical and still having some solid punching power, like when he was still roaming around the lightweight division during the time elapsed between his fight with Floyd and his third fight with Manny. So he's a good fighter to watch, plus he's always pretty energetic. I feel like at this point, Canelo isn't extremely exciting to watch in the ring, and his personality outside of the ring isn't really all that interesting either. I agree that if Manny were still mostly restricted to Tagalog (which was still the case around the time of Morales-Pacquiao II), he wouldn't have as many buys, but people would still tune in, since he was fun to watch because he threw a ton of punches and was just knocking guys around the ring.
Marquez wanted nothing to do with Manny, but now that he was offered Provodnikov he changed his tune.
I don't think he changed his tune because of being offered Provodnikov though. He was just looking for reasons to not fight Manny, since he really doesn't want to risk the end of the story being him putting Manny to bed being changed, but at the same time, he doesn't want to look like anything less than a warrior but he doesn't want to look like he's running either, and he really doesn't have any excuse to not fight the winner this time, particularly if it's Manny. And at the same time, it's not as if he's taking the winner over Provodnikov (as they likely wanted to set up a potential Marquez-Provodnikov fight for April or May as well). He just doesn't want to fight him, though I do suspect that he does in fact want a big fight for the end of the year but views Provodnikov as a little risky, which may jeopardize a big fight later on.
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50 won't go broke from setting up a major fight, as long as the event doesn't suck... which isn't THAT hard. It wouldn't be too hard for him to get investors if he wanted. He's probably mentioned in Forbes far more frequently than Oscar. Even just within his peers from within the hip-hop industry, he's already close to Eminem ($150 million net worth), Dr. Dre ($350 million net worth) and then of course people like Puff ($450 million net worth) and Jay ($450 million net worth). Plus a lot of those guys are venturing outside of hip-hop, so they might be willing to try something new. And again, 50 has a lot of business ventures and likely has networked with a lot of people who have the coin to make it happen.
50 has plenty of money, I'm sure, but he'd never want to risk all of his money like that. It would be best for him to reach out to his Hip-Hop contemporaries or other business people to put money together.
But no one really expected Canelo to win (even though his size and undefeated record going into the fight made it interesting), just like how no one expected Marquez to win against Floyd either... so neither lost any of their loyal following. But Marquez maintained is following by being great to watch, from being very technical and still having some solid punching power, like when he was still roaming around the lightweight division during the time elapsed between his fight with Floyd and his third fight with Manny. So he's a good fighter to watch, plus he's always pretty energetic. I feel like at this point, Canelo isn't extremely exciting to watch in the ring, and his personality outside of the ring isn't really all that interesting either. I agree that if Manny were still mostly restricted to Tagalog (which was still the case around the time of Morales-Pacquiao II), he wouldn't have as many buys, but people would still tune in, since he was fun to watch because he threw a ton of punches and was just knocking guys around the ring.
I'm not sold on Canelo. I figured the only way he'd beat Floyd was if he was able to hit him hard, early. Anything after the 3rd round was too late. But, it seemed like every Mexican person I spoke with didn't want to hear it. They were completely sold on the dude. Even afterwards, they're still sold on him. I think it really has to do with the fact that there is a huge lack of Mexican star power in Boxing right now. Outside of Marquez, the only other truly big name is Chavez Jr. And, from what it seems like, a lot of Mexicans dislike him. Canelo is the man right now for Mexicans. For Boxing fans outside of that group, they see his flaws and don't think much of him. That's why I'm disappointed in this fight with Angulo. I feel it's a safe fight.
I don't think he changed his tune because of being offered Provodnikov though. He was just looking for reasons to not fight Manny, since he really doesn't want to risk the end of the story being him putting Manny to bed being changed, but at the same time, he doesn't want to look like anything less than a warrior but he doesn't want to look like he's running either, and he really doesn't have any excuse to not fight the winner this time, particularly if it's Manny. And at the same time, it's not as if he's taking the winner over Provodnikov (as they likely wanted to set up a potential Marquez-Provodnikov fight for April or May as well). He just doesn't want to fight him, though I do suspect that he does in fact want a big fight for the end of the year but views Provodnikov as a little risky, which may jeopardize a big fight later on.
I really do think he changed his tune for that reason. He felt he would be able to go out there and get big fights. The only fight offered to him was Ruslan. I feel that he looked at that fight and figured he could be in big trouble fighting that kid. Then and only then did he realize that he needed to fight Manny.
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I'm not sold on Canelo. I figured the only way he'd beat Floyd was if he was able to hit him hard, early. Anything after the 3rd round was too late. But, it seemed like every Mexican person I spoke with didn't want to hear it. They were completely sold on the dude. Even afterwards, they're still sold on him. I think it really has to do with the fact that there is a huge lack of Mexican star power in Boxing right now. Outside of Marquez, the only other truly big name is Chavez Jr. And, from what it seems like, a lot of Mexicans dislike him. Canelo is the man right now for Mexicans. For Boxing fans outside of that group, they see his flaws and don't think much of him. That's why I'm disappointed in this fight with Angulo. I feel it's a safe fight.
Mexican fans are very loyal though. Even if they like the other fighter, whether he's Filipino or black or white, they still will root for their own icon whether they think he's going to win or not. (Conversely, it's not always the case with other cultures.) But they also appear to be a lot more supportive since they have bigger numbers, as a lot of them do make their way to the events, and you got a lot of boos toward Manny at the Pacquiao-Marquez IV weigh-in and fight, as it's not rare to be in front of a pro-Mexican crowd in Vegas, with so many Mexican communities being within driving distance.
I really do think he changed his tune for that reason. He felt he would be able to go out there and get big fights. The only fight offered to him was Ruslan. I feel that he looked at that fight and figured he could be in big trouble fighting that kid. Then and only then did he realize that he needed to fight Manny.
Yeah, since it's not as if his options were endless (especially coming off of a pretty clear loss), he figures he can fight Manny for a career-high payday (I'm sure he'd end up taking home low eight figures after everything is said and done) with some risk, or he can fight another similarly risky fighter (but slightly less risky) for way less money (maybe $1-2 million) and blow his chances at any other big fights. The loss to Bradley already killed off some of his steam, especially considering how he turned down $12 million for an immediate rematch with Manny, likely in hopes of winning and then demanding some crazy retirement payday. And him whining about losing again (just like after his second and third fights with Manny) didn't help, since it's an all too familiar tune we've heard him sing.
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I just read something about Arum mentioning that he was trying to set up Marquez vs. Alvarado...
Marquez DOES need a fight in between his last fight against Bradley and taking on the winner of Pacquiao-Bradley II at the end of the year, though he just turned down Provodnikov as a potential opponent, claiming that it would do nothing for his career. So it's ironic to hear that he might be taking on Alvarado, who didn't go the distance with Provodnikov. But it's pretty clear Marquez doesn't want to take on anyone too risky to the point where he might lose and miss out on his opportunity for another shot at the welterweight title.
Still, I'd like to see Rios-Alvarado III, since they're 1-1 against each other.
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Has Mayweather announced his next fight? As for ducking Bradley, you really think so?
Mayweather is "letting fans" decide whether he fights Khan or Maidana. I don't know if it's necessarily ducking Bradley, but you do not see a ton of fighters clamoring to fight the guy. He struggled to find a fight after the 1st Pacquiao fight. His style has a lot to do with it. Kinda like Rigondeaux.
Cool....likes its likely Maidana.
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I just read that Marquez is taking on Alvarado... weak. (Not Top Rank's fault... they wanted him to fight Provodnikov, but Marquez said no, and is instead fighting the guy who Provodnikov stopped.)
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While it's no secret, Cotto-Martinez is apparently officially set, since Cotto just tweeted about it. I guess the holdup was just minor details, like who gets first billing and all that.
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Cotto-Martinez is for the title but at a 159 lb. catchweight... which frankly isn't that big of a deal, since it's one pound shy of the limit, plus Martinez isn't that big anyway, as I don't think he really has to work all that hard to make 160 to begin with.
Apparently Cotto and Manny are going to train together, given the fact that they share the same trainer and have fights less than two months apart. Cotto may even go to the Philippines too, for the first couple of weeks of Manny's training. Roach said that the two fighters won't spar each other, though it wouldn't be a bad idea for them to at least get a couple of rounds in, since it would help Manny prepare for speed, plus it would also help Cotto prepare for a good southpaw.
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And it looks like we have Mayweather-Maidana for May.
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do yall know any good boxing torrents, i dont have hbo anymore and i missed the chavez fight tonight, can yall hook it up with a good torrent site or stream site they show replays?
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My boy Jerry Belmontes won on the under card
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Now that the fight is over and done with...
In a previous post, I had estimated that Canelo vs. Angulo would do 300,000 PPV buys "at best," and it appears as if the final numbers put it at around 350,000 PPV buys. So while the fight did better than what I expected, I really wasn't that far off. He's got a bright future ahead of him, but he has the exposure from the Mayweather fight to thank for that, especially since he's coming off of a loss. Had he not fought Mayweather but still have been undefeated, then that 350,000 would likely have been closer to what I had estimated.
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it takes two to tango and i dont think Angulo could really draw well anyways outside of mexico and your hardcore boxing fan
if it was a fight against Cotto or something it probably would of done better in sales
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That's a given. But while Canelo has good drawing power, he's not going to be the next superstar. His career might go farther than Cotto's and he could even beat him if they fought, but he won't overtake Cotto in terms of popularity. Not unless he learns English and can speak it comfortably or adapts a more interesting boxing style. Despite having been in the highest grossing PPV boxing match to date, he just doesn't yet have the characteristics of a boxing superstar yet.
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my boy Jerry Belmontes came threw on the undercard, that fight was going to make or break him and he won against someone he was suppose to lose to...
that win probably just saved his career cus im sure Golden Boy would of dropped him after a 4th consecutive loss