West Coast Connection Forum
DUBCC - Tha Connection => Outbound Connection => Topic started by: davida.b. on September 19, 2004, 06:27:34 PM
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Hip-hopping mad artists rap copyright ruling
By Casey Ross
http://news.bostonherald.com/localR...articleid=43466
The Man is trying to kill rap again.
That's the worry of Hub hip hop artists after a federal court ruling clamped down on the practice of sampling from other artists' work in the creation of new music.
The 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled Tuesday that using even unrecognizable snippets from an existing work is illegal without a license and compensation to the original artist.
``Essentially, this is an anti-hip hop law,'' said Boston producer and lyricist DJ Fakts One. ``The basis of hip hop is taking music from different cultures and making it dope by putting it all together.''
The court's ruling centers on a song by the rap group NWA that lifts a three-note guitar riff from ``Get Off Your Ass and Jam'' by George Clinton and the Funkadelics. The case was one of 800 filed in Nashville, Tenn., over the lifting of music snippets.
Local hip hop musicians and academics say they support compensating artists when their work is clearly recognizable in a new song, but they say the court ruling went too far in requiring compensation for even tiny samples.
``Hip hop has always been a derivative form of music,'' said Akrobatik, a Boston-based artist. ``I just don't like it when the federal government gets involved in things like this . . . and defines what music is supposed to be.''
The court's action means musicians will be required to undergo long and costly negotiations to get approval for all work that contains material from other artists. Some believe the judge's ruling is unenforceable because of technology that can make original samples nearly impossible to recognize.
``It's a nuisance and a shame,'' Peter Alhadeff, a professor at the Berklee School of Music, said of the ruling. ``I'm wondering if it hinders creativity more than it helps it, as copyright law is supposed to do.''
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Why don't these losers just pick up an instrument and learn how to play it. Then they'll learn how to create original music and then they won't face this problem. I hate how they use the excuse of it being "a part of hip hop". Shit man, just stop fucking complaining. If you don't create it yourself, then pay the person that did. It's as simple as that. Anyone against this wouldn't be if they had one of their original compositions stolen by some rap producer.
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Why don't these losers just pick up an instrument and learn how to play it. Then they'll learn how to create original music and then they won't face this problem. I hate how they use the excuse of it being "a part of hip hop". Shit man, just stop fucking complaining. If you don't create it yourself, then pay the person that did. It's as simple as that. Anyone against this wouldn't be if they had one of their original compositions stolen by some rap producer.
if you know anything abou hip-hop history, you'd know that hip-hop came from sampling. Many songs, DJs, would loop a certain part so that it would be easier to dance. Over time, emcees would rhyme over these loops and rap music was started. And if you don't like the history, or the art form, then why are you here?
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I think ultimately, this law is useless, since many competant dj's and producers interpolate songs anyways. What's interpolation? You take a beat you like, and recreate it. Since the music has been published, you only have to pay standard royalties (6 cents? something crazy) for using their published song, but the performance is yours, since you re-created it. That's why Dre doesn't really 'sample', he re-creates or interpolates the beat, much much cheaper.
DJ Premier is FUCKED, though.
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DJ Premier is FUCKED, though.
Thats the part that saddens me the most
Edit: and don't forget Kanye and Heatmakerz, they're known for sampling.
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Why don't these losers just pick up an instrument and learn how to play it. Then they'll learn how to create original music and then they won't face this problem. I hate how they use the excuse of it being "a part of hip hop". Shit man, just stop fucking complaining. If you don't create it yourself, then pay the person that did. It's as simple as that. Anyone against this wouldn't be if they had one of their original compositions stolen by some rap producer.
you're a dumbass...
anyway, it just means people are gonna have to be smarter about how they sample...i guarantee that this will not stop people like Premo, 9th Wonder, Kanye etc from using samples...
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When did I say this would stop sampling. I just said these hip hop "musicians", and I use that term very loosely, should stop fucking complaining. If rock acts started stealing lyrics from hip hop then I would expect the rappers to get paid for that. You wanna know why it bothers me so much? I'll tell you. It's because these producers steal music and then loop it. The song they steal from is already amazing but all these hip hop only kids seem to think the hip hop producer created it. I know this ruling is about small samples, but stealing someones 3 notes and reversing them is still stealing to me.
Yeah it's a part of hip hop, but so what? It's been a part of hip hop for too long. The piano was a significant part of the rock n roll sound in the 50s, it helped create what rock n roll is. How many times do you hear a piano in current rock n roll? It's not often, I'll tell you that. What I am implying is that maybe it's time for hip hop to change too. Nothing lasts forever until it changes. The whole sound is getting old, and old fast. Time for something new. That something new could very well be real musicians contributing to the genre more so than they currently do. Right now all we have are real musicians conforming to the hip hop sound, when what we need is them to start creating new sounds. Hip hop hasn't created a new sound since the scratch, and even that sounds a lot like stuff Jmmy Page, and Jimi Hendrix would do during guitar solos. Primo would just rip off jazz, Dre ripped of funk, RZA ripped of sou, and Puffy ripped off, well just about any song that was a hit in the past.. Even the west coast siren is ripped off, and it's the trademark. I don't hate hip hop, I'm just getting bored with it and yearn for something new.
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When did I say this would stop sampling. I just said these hip hop "musicians", and I use that term very loosely, should stop fucking complaining.
only the first part of my previous post was directed at you...the rest was just a general statement...
If rock acts started stealing lyrics from hip hop then I would expect the rappers to get paid for that. You wanna know why it bothers me so much? I'll tell you. It's because these producers steal music and then loop it. The song they steal from is already amazing but all these hip hop only kids seem to think the hip hop producer created it.
see my previous post... 8)
p.s. if you are so bored with all these the way hip hop is now why are you here? there are plenty of other boards that will cater more towards your needs...
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I said I wanted something new and fresh from hip hop, and I think this is a proper forum to express that.
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this is a good law wether you like it or not, the "art" of sampling has lost all meaning
and again wether you like it or not hip hop has helped ruin the musical integrity of popular music
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some producers will have to change the way they sample songs, but i agree with M Dogg, sampling is how hiphop got all started and i do think these laws are sad, but prolly they're practically useless anyways
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I don't really see how this law will bring drastic changes... It just says that if you sample anything, you gotta pay for it. How's that gonna stop the likes of Kanye or Premo? Kanye's CD booklet has all the used samples credited, most likely meaning they paid to use them too. What will he have to do differently in the future because of this law, I don't understand. If he hadn't paid for the samples on his album, don't you think he would've been hit with a million copyright violation lawsuits? You've always had to pay for samples - now you just gotta pay for the non-obvious ones too.
They've phrased it funny in the news bit though - "using even unrecognizable snippets from an existing work is illegal without a license and compensation to the original artist". If it's really "unrecognizeable", meaning nobody can recognize the work as their own, wouldn't the sampler have gotten away with it then? ;)
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this is a good law wether you like it or not, the "art" of sampling has lost all meaning
and again wether you like it or not hip hop has helped ruin the musical integrity of popular music
1. i don't think i agree, but can u explain: how did this "art" have "meaning" back in the days and how has it "lost it all" now?
2. i don't necessarily disagree, but could you tell me what u understand by "the musical integrity" of pop and how and by doing what hiphop has contributed to ruining it? and what/who else has?
really, not tryin to start beef, but i wanna know what exactly ure talkin about
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To be honest there has only been one court ruling, and that was just in Boston, based off of Master P using an NWA song that sampled that Parliament track in one of his films. Because the sample wasn't originally paid for by NWA, the company that owned the rights to the Parliament recording decided to get some money out of it and sue Master P for copyright infringement. This ruling will take ages to become a nationwide thing, and even if it does, people like Premier aren't gonna be hugely effected cause they pay to clear samples at the moment anyway, and anything that is "unrecognisable" is just that, so how is anyone gonna prove which recording such a sample originally came from anyway? The independent labels will still not bother clearing everything, because the majority of the time it is cheaper for them to just not clear anything and risk getting sued for a couple of samples, rather than go through and clear every single sample on an album. It just doesn't make any sense when you are only gonna sell between 5,000 - 20,000 albums.
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Kanye west is definitely FUCKED
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this is a good law wether you like it or not, the "art" of sampling has lost all meaning
and again wether you like it or not hip hop has helped ruin the musical integrity of popular music
1. i don't think i agree, but can u explain: how did this "art" have "meaning" back in the days and how has it "lost it all" now?
2. i don't necessarily disagree, but could you tell me what u understand by "the musical integrity" of pop and how and by doing what hiphop has contributed to ruining it? and what/who else has?
really, not tryin to start beef, but i wanna know what exactly ure talkin about
when sampling was first introduced it was a nice , fresh, thing....back in the 80's. But it's been beat to death, it's almost like some producers rely on someone else's hits to make their music . i don't have a problem if they can sample a song and make a hot beat then on their next song make a totally original song that's equally as good or better....that's musical skill. Sampling requires the LEAST amount of musical skill, there is some skill but it's like comparing a Flut-a-phone player to a freaking London Symphany orchestra lead Clarenetis when comparing a hip hop producer who samples and a real musician. the musical integrity of popular music has been destroyed (thanks in large part to Hip hop and Punk rock) because of the dumbing down of the music. IN the 40's the number 1 hit was how much was that doggy in the window........musically flat
in the 50's people were meshing genres together to create new genres
in the 60's you had the emergence of groups like the beatles who changed what popular music could be
in the 70's you had groups who were progressing these notions
int he 80's it continued
in the early 90's it hit it's peak then by the time rap came into prominance, every thing went back to that loopy,formulistic, flat flavor of "how much is that doggy in the window"
we went from ostinado music to progessive back to ostinado.....
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when sampling was first introduced it was a nice , fresh, thing....back in the 80's. But it's been beat to death, it's almost like some producers rely on someone else's hits to make their music . i don't have a problem if they can sample a song and make a hot beat then on their next song make a totally original song that's equally as good or better....that's musical skill. Sampling requires the LEAST amount of musical skill, there is some skill but it's like comparing a Flut-a-phone player to a freaking London Symphany orchestra lead Clarenetis when comparing a hip hop producer who samples and a real musician. the musical integrity of popular music has been destroyed (thanks in large part to Hip hop and Punk rock) because of the dumbing down of the music. IN the 40's the number 1 hit was how much was that doggy in the window........musically flat
in the 50's people were meshing genres together to create new genres
in the 60's you had the emergence of groups like the beatles who changed what popular music could be
in the 70's you had groups who were progressing these notions
int he 80's it continued
in the early 90's it hit it's peak then by the time rap came into prominance, every thing went back to that loopy,formulistic, flat flavor of "how much is that doggy in the window"
we went from ostinado music to progessive back to ostinado.....
ok, i see where you are coming from, but there is way more to sampling in hiphop than the skills it requires
1. Sampling is part of the essence of hiphop and can very well be done skillfully and elaborately enough for the song to be something that requires skills to do. That might not be because it is technically difficult to get ur MPC and sample sumthing, but because the whole arrangement, the choice of what/who to sample and how, the atmosphere a track creates, the combination of the sample and the new, original part of the song and also the vocals laid over the beat combine and make a good hiphop song what it is. Take "Watch Out Now" by the Beatnuts. Ju took one Herbie Mann song, sampled a small excerpt of the flute part and he and Les did sum party-and-bullshit rap over it - yet they managed to do a track millions of heads are feeling 5 years after it came out...that does take a certain type of skill too
2. now you might say that this backs up your point of how music has been "dumbed down" and theoretically u might be right. Question is does a more simple approach to "good music" (as in music people are feelin, not technically elaborate music) destroy its integrity? Why? I agree that it is important to have visionaries who do progressive music, but the way i see it is that when there really IS a process of self-destruction in music due to its reduction to certain formulas, then new impulses will necessarily come, because 1. artists will feel the need to move on and 2. people will show how they are tired of the same old shit.
But my main point is, good music should not be defined by technicalities. That doesn't only go for hiphop, but for any style...take "Nevermind" for example. Anybody who has ever held a guitar is prolly able to play that shit, yet the album is more energetic, catchy and overall gripping than almost everything i know. And i think people bitching bout how Kurt & Nirvana are overrated are oblivious of an important aspect. that's just one example
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However, Cobain's riffs, as simple as they were, were original. He didn't take small peices of Hendrix solos and use them to create songs. That is essentially what hip hop does. It takes a small catchy part of a long compostion and loops it. Nirvana at least composed their own music. That cannot be said for a very large percent of hip hop producers.
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However, Cobain's riffs, as simple as they were, were original. He didn't take small peices of Hendrix solos and use them to create songs. That is essentially what hip hop does. It takes a small catchy part of a long compostion and loops it. Nirvana at least composed their own music. That cannot be said for a very large percent of hip hop producers.
yeah, i just used that to say that good music don't need to be elaborate and complicated...the originality thing is a different point, true
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Sampling is a lot harder than you guys think...Cutting up a simple loop, arranging it to match the drums, switching up the tempo, reversing it, tweaking it, whatever it may be, it's not as simple as it seems...With sampling, you can take a depressing song, cut up a loop, and make it a party song...People are quick to say sampling is uncreative, but when you start producing beats and sample shit, come back to me and tell me how easy it is...I produce music; original and sampled...Both come out equally dope, but I can tell you one thing, sampling is harder..And I'm not on some electric keyboard nonesense... I play piano/keyboard and write compositions...I can also play drums, but live drums don't sound good in Hip-Hop...PeACe
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I don't mean to say that it takes no skill what so ever, but I still think it takes the least skill. Put it this way, I think the best artists in all the other sections of rock n roll, are more creative and musical than the best in hip hop.
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I don't mean to say that it takes no skill what so ever, but I still think it takes the least skill. Put it this way, I think the best artists in all the other sections of rock n roll, are more creative and musical than the best in hip hop.
I don't think so. I mean, in hip hop, you have a producer, taking other music, and recreating it. In rock music, you have people that play instruments, and that's it. You have a drum man that does his drums, you have the bass, a guitar, keyboards, and all types of other sounds. But you are not having your drummer doing a guitar solo. In hip-hop, they by-pass the instruments, and one person creates the sound. In rock, you have a music writer to do it all, and them the players play what they are told. I will give whoever writes the music lots of credit, but at the same time, I will give a hip-hop producer credit for putting together sounds to make music. And you have to remember, not everything in a rap song is sampled anymore. At one time, yes, but now a days, producers are adding more original sounds to the beats. But I will get mad the day sampling of voices is no longer there. There is nothing like hearing Premo, or Kanye, or most producers, sample some old school shit, mix it into the song and make the song that much more powerful.
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I don't mean to say that it takes no skill what so ever, but I still think it takes the least skill. Put it this way, I think the best artists in all the other sections of rock n roll, are more creative and musical than the best in hip hop.
That's your opinion... :D
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I'm with Sccit on this one, sampling does take a lot of skill to do it properly, i.e. chopping samples up, fitting them wit drums, bass, etc. Compared to actually playing instruments I wouldn't know, but as far as I'm concerned to sample you have to understand how music sounds, in order to match up the correct elements within a track. You can tell the difference between a good and bad producer by how well the different elements of a beat match one another, and that is all down to the skill in picking the correct samples to fit one another and chopping them up correctly.
You do get some producers nowadays who just take a four bar loop from an old soul track, speed it up, and then add drums and bass (no names mentioned), which admittably probably doesn't take that much skill or creativity, but there are so many others who take samples from such a wide variation of music styles and put them together to make cohesive tracks, to say that there is little skill in the process would be stupid.
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Yes...There are producers out there who cut loops from five different songs, tweak them, and fuse them together to make one incredible beat...That takes a lot of skill, and is beyond creative, if you ask me...It's not how you people picture it...Sure there are producers who take advantage, and straight out rip shit off. But there are also producers who use the art of sampling to create extremely dope, creative, and skillful music...PeACe
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i love shit like Wu tang - cream and Necro - light my fire.. those piano samples are addictive..
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I don't mean to say that it takes no skill what so ever, but I still think it takes the least skill. Put it this way, I think the best artists in all the other sections of rock n roll, are more creative and musical than the best in hip hop.
That's your opinion... :D
Of course that's my opinion. The fact that I used "I think" to start off all my claims shows that I am stating it as being just my opinion. For the record I'm sure there are a lot of people that share my opinion. Do you disagree? Do you think that a guy like Primo is more talented and creative than a guy like Hendrix? Just wondering.
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I don't mean to say that it takes no skill what so ever, but I still think it takes the least skill. Put it this way, I think the best artists in all the other sections of rock n roll, are more creative and musical than the best in hip hop.
That's your opinion... :D
Of course that's my opinion. The fact that I used "I think" to start off all my claims shows that I am stating it as being just my opinion. For the record I'm sure there are a lot of people that share my opinion. Do you disagree? Do you think that a guy like Primo is more talented and creative than a guy like Hendrix? Just wondering.
i don't think it is fair to take the best guitar player ever and talk about 'guys like him', cuz the only 'guy like Hendrix' was Hendrix. If u think Primo > average guitar player or even Primo > good guitar player it don't mean Primo > Hendrix.....
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I don't mean to say that it takes no skill what so ever, but I still think it takes the least skill. Put it this way, I think the best artists in all the other sections of rock n roll, are more creative and musical than the best in hip hop.
That's your opinion... :D
Of course that's my opinion. The fact that I used "I think" to start off all my claims shows that I am stating it as being just my opinion. For the record I'm sure there are a lot of people that share my opinion. Do you disagree? Do you think that a guy like Primo is more talented and creative than a guy like Hendrix? Just wondering.
i don't think it is fair to take the best guitar player ever and talk about 'guys like him', cuz the only 'guy like Hendrix' was Hendrix. If u think Primo > average guitar player or even Primo > good guitar player it don't mean Primo > Hendrix.....
I meant Jimi artstically. I could also bring up Jimmy Page, Brian Wilson, Paul McCartney, Bruce Springsteen, Roger Waters, Elton John, Billy Joel, Rick James, Curtis Mayfeild, Frank Zappa, Michael Jackson, etc, etc, etc, etc. and still put them way over Primo on my list. I'm not comparing DJ skills, to the skills of these guys with regards to the instruments. I'm comparing artisic merit.
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this is a hip hop board. People are gonna be offended if you offend hip hop.
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^ not me... peep the playlist :)
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I don't mean to say that it takes no skill what so ever, but I still think it takes the least skill. Put it this way, I think the best artists in all the other sections of rock n roll, are more creative and musical than the best in hip hop.
That's your opinion... :D
Of course that's my opinion. The fact that I used "I think" to start off all my claims shows that I am stating it as being just my opinion. For the record I'm sure there are a lot of people that share my opinion. Do you disagree? Do you think that a guy like Primo is more talented and creative than a guy like Hendrix? Just wondering.
i don't think it is fair to take the best guitar player ever and talk about 'guys like him', cuz the only 'guy like Hendrix' was Hendrix. If u think Primo > average guitar player or even Primo > good guitar player it don't mean Primo > Hendrix.....
I meant Jimi artstically. I could also bring up Jimmy Page, Brian Wilson, Paul McCartney, Bruce Springsteen, Roger Waters, Elton John, Billy Joel, Rick James, Curtis Mayfeild, Frank Zappa, Michael Jackson, etc, etc, etc, etc. and still put them way over Primo on my list. I'm not comparing DJ skills, to the skills of these guys with regards to the instruments. I'm comparing artisic merit.
ok yeah. i do agree with u then, from all i can tell, but then u cannot judge unless u know exactly what it requires to do the stuff primo does and to do the stuff hendrix did
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I don't mean to say that it takes no skill what so ever, but I still think it takes the least skill. Put it this way, I think the best artists in all the other sections of rock n roll, are more creative and musical than the best in hip hop.
That's your opinion... :D
Of course that's my opinion. The fact that I used "I think" to start off all my claims shows that I am stating it as being just my opinion. For the record I'm sure there are a lot of people that share my opinion. Do you disagree? Do you think that a guy like Primo is more talented and creative than a guy like Hendrix? Just wondering.
i don't think it is fair to take the best guitar player ever and talk about 'guys like him', cuz the only 'guy like Hendrix' was Hendrix. If u think Primo > average guitar player or even Primo > good guitar player it don't mean Primo > Hendrix.....
I meant Jimi artstically. I could also bring up Jimmy Page, Brian Wilson, Paul McCartney, Bruce Springsteen, Roger Waters, Elton John, Billy Joel, Rick James, Curtis Mayfeild, Frank Zappa, Michael Jackson, etc, etc, etc, etc. and still put them way over Primo on my list. I'm not comparing DJ skills, to the skills of these guys with regards to the instruments. I'm comparing artisic merit.
ok yeah. i do agree with u then, from all i can tell, but then u cannot judge unless u know exactly what it requires to do the stuff primo does and to do the stuff hendrix did
I try my best to never give definate judgement, and rely on opinion. We can never say one thing is harder than another, because we don't know how hard or easy it is for the artists to create what he does. What I do know for sure, is that I could do a better job trying to re create a Primo produced instrumental than I would trying to re create a Hendix, or Page guitar solo, or a seven peice interlude in some of the old Springsteen tracks. I'm not saying I'd do a good job re creating a Primo beat, because I'd most likely do a terrible job, but I'd do a more terrible job trying to do the other stuff I mentioned.
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Of course I don't consider Premo more talented than Hendrix...I would have to be music-retarded to say that...I would say that Premo is more talented than many Rock artists nowadays though...But the comparison is not even there... Premo is a DJ, while Hendrix is a guitarist...PeACe
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jimi uses the guitar like a magic wand