West Coast Connection Forum
DUBCC - Tha Connection => Outbound Connection => Topic started by: Drudge on January 12, 2005, 08:14:30 AM
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Look, I don't know if I agree with Nas's coon picnic argument. In-fact, the charge laid at the feet of KOBE,TAYE DIGGS, and CUBA is bogus. The common thread is that they have white wives and/or messed around with white women. The names he listed as men we should look up too Jim Brown, Stokley Carmichael, and others all messed with white women. As far as I'm concerned if I made it out poverty through hard work and perseverance I don't owe nobody shit. The story below tells how one author supports Nas the other one doesn't.
"While “Ants at Nas’ Coon Picnic” raises some thoughtful and persuasive critiques of the rapper’s diatribe against “sellouts” in media and entertainment, the author’s fundamental premise is flawed, his opinion misinformed, and his tone quite elitist.
Morris O’Kelly deserves kudos for pointing out the factual errors in “These Are Our Heroes.” Nas, by saying on wax “whatever happened to Weezy/the Red Foxxes?/never won Emmys but were real to me,” misinformed many unaware listeners, who might use him as a reference in an argument or conversation and get embarrassed when their audience points out they’re wrong.
Mr. O’Kelly deserves even more kudos for pointing out that Nas’ praise of Weezy, Red Foxx, and, presumably, their contemporaries are definitely problematic. In the minds of a great deal of people, these actors were the “coons” of their era. The rapper’s unqualified remark ignores the fact that Red Foxx and Isabel Sanford arguably reinforced pernicious stereotypes about blacks in their respective roles. The lyrics also ignore the fact that the black community was sorely ambivalent about the TV portrayals Foxx, Sanford, and others provided for mainstream consumption. Perhaps the strongest point in Mr. O’Kelly’s critique is his assertion that Nas’ clearly calling out non-rappers for buffoonery, but only dissin’ other artists subliminally on the track is somewhat hypocritical and opportunistic. It’s kind of unfair to mention the WB and UPN in a discussion about “cooning,” when Lil Kim is runnin’ around with blue contacts, blonde weave, fake breasts, and is a ‘hood poster-girl for Old Navy.
Despite these worthwhile merits, the author’s primary argument- (in his own words) “our castigation of fellow African-Americans for supposedly not being ‘Black enough’ [is] usually misguided…if not all-out wrong…[Nas] is a case in point”- is fallacious. The MC’s observation that Tiger Woods, Taye Diggs, Cuba Gooding, Jr., and Kobe Bryant are sellouts is correct!
Mr. O’Kelly weakly tries to dispute this observation by highlighting what he thinks is a contradiction in Nas’ logic.
The author wrongly assumes that the rapper’s beef with Tiger, Taye, and Cuba is solely that they have white wives. He says sarcastically, “I get the joke. The common thread here is that all three have White wives.” He then tells readers that the real heroes Nas suggests we emulate (eg. Jim Brown, Stokely Carmichael) had relationships with white women too, thus the rapper’s reference to Tiger and ‘em as sellouts is bogus, or inaccurate at least. So happy that (he thinks) he has sonned Nas, Mr. O’Kelly asks an irrelevant rhetorical question: “[since Richard Pryor married a few white women], was [he] ‘less real’ to you, Nasir, than Red Foxx?” He even says arrogantly in a following line, “I’m beginning to think you’re not even sure what point you’re trying to make.”
The problem is Nas’ admiration of Jim Brown, Stokely Carmichael, et al, who also had penchants for white women, is easily reconciled with his disgust with the three jiggaboos in question. The theme of “These Are Our Heroes,” as the title so obviously implies, is that “our heroes,” the few blacks that have achieved fortune and fame in the mainstream, are not saying or doing enough for the advancement of black people, especially those of us that reside in the ghetto. Why the pompous author missed the whole point of the song and believed that Nas dissed Tiger, Taye, and Cuba just because they had white partners, I can only speculate. Not everyone is preoccupied wit’ white folks."
In contrast, Tiger Woods will not even publicly acknowledge he is black, never mind say anything about anything or do anything substantial for the rest of us. (Can you pronounce Cablanasian?) What else has Taye Diggs done concertedly for blacks besides pave the way for other, similar-pigmented actors to participate in scripted interracial relationships on screen? Cuba Gooding, Jr. embarrassed us all by literally doing a back flip for winning an Oscar, for best supporting actor of all honors, for a grossly offensive role in Jerry Maguire. (Show me the money!) Media outlets everywhere captured his unbridled hysteria with snide humor long after the end of the ceremony. His shall indefinitely remain the most undignified, dare I say, stereotypically slavish award acceptance.
"Tiger Woods will not even publicly acknowledge he is black"
Agreed
compliments of allhiphop.com
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I really don't want to get into all this again, but since it's not about interracial couples and more about selling out I restate all my old points.
Tiger Woods is what he is, half black, half Thai. He's not from the ghetto and has no ties to it. He doesn't owe a goddman thing to anyone in it. If he wants to give back then that's great, but if he doesn't than we have no right to insult him. Why should Tiger publicly call himself black or African when half of his entire family tree is Thai. Are the Thai making a big fuss about him not giving back to them. Let me assure you the poor Thai kid in Thailand lives a lot worse than the poor black in America. So what if high profile jobs aren't available, or if College is difficult to get into or pay for, or if a taxi doesn't stop? You think some kid in Thailand who's 4 and 5 years old being pimped out to a pedophile by the child sex industry that plagues that and other countries in the area gives a shit about not being able to get a cab? They'd trade places with any ghetto kid from Queensbridge in a second.
So what if Cuba Gooding Jr celebrated for winning an Oscar? Because he was happy he won the award, something white people do all the time, he's some sort of house nigger? Fuck these afrocentric losers who look at everything as racist. White people never play demeaning roles? Larry Bird didn't exactly come from a silver spoon, I never heard him brigning up the problems of middle America or giving loads back to all those out of work labourers. Was he supposed to?
Nas has no merit and neither does this writer.
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im gonna tell you straight up, nas is an idiot. he has no room to call anyone else a coon when he was going to stage a fake lynching. not to mention making fun of another black mans facial features. this is the same guy who told a bunch of people to rob another black man because his "voice was annoying and he didnt play hs records" it makes me sick to know that people look up to this clown. i remember when this cat used to be intelligent, but that was like 11 years ago. its amazing what fame can do to someone.
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its amazing what fame can do to someone.
...and coke.
lol
this dude musta be sniffin' a LOT in his life..
first I thought this topic was about how nas is retarded when it comes to having arguments.. LOL..
my 2 cent about this black thing is that black people should stop making them look like victims who need to stick together against the though oppression of racist whites or some shit... neither are they changing anything for the better with placing themselves in this role, nor are they fooling anyone.
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I already stated my opinions on Coon Picnic on another thread. Like I stated earlier, Nas's beefs with those people he mentioned has nothing to do with them having white wives, it's the way they behave, they way they carry themselves. The issues that Nas speaks upon are issues that have been talked about and have been geniune issues in the black community for decades. It's easy for one to criticize when one is not familiar with the dynamics he's discussing. The best they can do is to dissect a factual error or a contradiction or two, instead of discussing the real issues, since those that are the most vocal in criticizing Nas, especially on this board have little to no knowledge on issues affecting the black community.
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Tiger Woods is what he is, half black, half Thai. He's not from the ghetto and has no ties to it. He doesn't owe a goddman thing to anyone in it. If he wants to give back then that's great, but if he doesn't than we have no right to insult him. Why should Tiger publicly call himself black or African when half of his entire family tree is Thai. Are the Thai making a big fuss about him not giving back to them. Let me assure you the poor Thai kid in Thailand lives a lot worse than the poor black in America. So what if high profile jobs aren't available, or if College is difficult to get into or pay for, or if a taxi doesn't stop? You think some kid in Thailand who's 4 and 5 years old being pimped out to a pedophile by the child sex industry that plagues that and other countries in the area gives a shit about not being able to get a cab? They'd trade places with any ghetto kid from Queensbridge in a second.
;) Couldn't have said it better.
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I already stated my opinions on Coon Picnic on another thread. Like I stated earlier, Nas's beefs with those people he mentioned has nothing to do with them having white wives, it's the way they behave, they way they carry themselves. The issues that Nas speaks upon are issues that have been talked about and have been geniune issues in the black community for decades. It's easy for one to criticize when one is not familiar with the dynamics he's discussing. The best they can do is to dissect a factual error or a contradiction or two, instead of discussing the real issues, since those that are the most vocal in criticizing Nas, especially on this board have little to no knowledge on issues affecting the black community.
So do you feel like your race is being hurt by Cuba Gooding celebrating an Oscar win, or that Tiger Woods acts a certain way? Do you think it's right to put these guys down for not being Jim Brown? That's my only issue here. Someone putting down someone else's integrity. It's different when Em does it in his jokes, because no one is confusing him for being smart. This has nothing to do with black people for me. It's all about reason, logic, and morality. If it were Timberlake tearing down his fellow whites in ingnorant ways I'd take the same stand.
You can hide behind your "I'm black, your not. I understand, you can't" persona all you want, but the fact remains that an ignorant hate filled human being is insulting people for no reason. What would you like Tiger to do? Jim Brown said all this shit in the media, did that change the state of blacks in the Ghettos? Was there less crime and poverty. Nas is complaining for nothing. Like those people that complain about Mel Gibson not giving away all the money he made from Passion. Mel could give away all the 300 million and make no significant difference in the world. It's his money and his mind and what he wants to do is up to him. He isn't hurting anyone by being rich so I let it go. Tiger isn't hurting anyone by being Tiger, so I let him go. (Tiger still gives more back to black kids than Nas does).
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hey peeps I dont understand how ya'll react on nas.... wats up I thought em said some shit about black women... too ( OK HE said sorry but whats said is whats said) or am I just trippin....
Dont call me a racist.. Cuz me Role with whiteboys and white chicks too... and nobody of them is saying shit of nass... same as me not saying shit about em.. infact I listen to em and they listen to nas too...
NAS - Street Disciple is DOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by the way...
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I already stated my opinions on Coon Picnic on another thread. Like I stated earlier, Nas's beefs with those people he mentioned has nothing to do with them having white wives, it's the way they behave, they way they carry themselves. The issues that Nas speaks upon are issues that have been talked about and have been geniune issues in the black community for decades. It's easy for one to criticize when one is not familiar with the dynamics he's discussing. The best they can do is to dissect a factual error or a contradiction or two, instead of discussing the real issues, since those that are the most vocal in criticizing Nas, especially on this board have little to no knowledge on issues affecting the black community.
So do you feel like your race is being hurt by Cuba Gooding celebrating an Oscar win, or that Tiger Woods acts a certain way? Do you think it's right to put these guys down for not being Jim Brown? That's my only issue here. Someone putting down someone else's integrity. It's different when Em does it in his jokes, because no one is confusing him for being smart. This has nothing to do with black people for me. It's all about reason, logic, and morality. If it were Timberlake tearing down his fellow whites in ingnorant ways I'd take the same stand.
You can hide behind your "I'm black, your not. I understand, you can't" persona all you want, but the fact remains that an ignorant hate filled human being is insulting people for no reason. What would you like Tiger to do? Jim Brown said all this shit in the media, did that change the state of blacks in the Ghettos? Was there less crime and poverty. Nas is complaining for nothing. Like those people that complain about Mel Gibson not giving away all the money he made from Passion. Mel could give away all the 300 million and make no significant difference in the world. It's his money and his mind and what he wants to do is up to him. He isn't hurting anyone by being rich so I let it go. Tiger isn't hurting anyone by being Tiger, so I let him go. (Tiger still gives more back to black kids than Nas does).
I already said my piece in the other thread. I'm not discussing the issue anymore. I feel where Nas is coming from. That's it.
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^^ this may be the first time i've ever disagreed with you on any thread...but nas can eat a dick on this one.
he's actin like he's some sort of savior. fuck that shit. he's got dirty laundry too. fuck him. clean up your own back yard before you start bitchin about people you don't even know. nas gets in these little moods where he thinks he's the only one in the world that understands how people should act...fuck him and his stupid track. what if everyone in the world acted like nas told them to act. we'd have one fucked up, selfish and divided world. nas doesn't know shit about those fuckin guys and doesn't know shit about 99.99999% of the people that are hearing that record and he's out there tellin people how to act? i tell you what, if anyone comes to me thinking they know me and is tryin to tell me how to act, they can eat a dick.
even if he's 'right' as far as the issues are concerned, tell me what kind of right this fuckin guy has to tell someone how to live. he doesn't know a goddam thing about tiger or cuba or kobe and the way their experiences shaped them - how the fuck are you going to tell someone how to act? for real, nas can eat a dick on this one.
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God not this again.
Be a minority, feel what it's like, then come back at this. You can't possibly do that, so you can't feel what Nas is saying. I love the song, I love the CD, and I'm one that has dated white women and went to an all white college. In fact, that even makes me feel it more. You guys may not like it, but it's a point of view that exist, and rappers like Public Enemy (Flava Flav should have been in that song too, wtf is he doing?) 2Pac, Ice Cube and many other hip-hop legends spoke on for many years. It's political conscience rap, something Nas does, and everyother rapper like him has songs like it, so don't trip. Why not put all the other songs on blast, why not put hip-hop on blast, why not talk about Ice Cube for doing White Cave Bitch, Public Enemy for calling white people devils and slave owners, and every other political/conscience rapper, and these are the guys people call positive rappers.
When will this conversation end?
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God not this again.
Be a minority, feel what it's like, then come back at this. You can't possibly do that, so you can't feel what Nas is saying. I love the song, I love the CD, and I'm one that has dated white women and went to an all white college. In fact, that even makes me feel it more. You guys may not like it, but it's a point of view that exist, and rappers like Public Enemy (Flava Flav should have been in that song too, wtf is he doing?) 2Pac, Ice Cube and many other hip-hop legends spoke on for many years. It's political conscience rap, something Nas does, and everyother rapper like him has songs like it, so don't trip. Why not put all the other songs on blast, why not put hip-hop on blast, why not talk about Ice Cube for doing White Cave Bitch, Public Enemy for calling white people devils and slave owners, and every other political/conscience rapper, and these are the guys people call positive rappers.
When will this conversation end?
If this were '91 I would be blasting Cube. If this were '95 I would be blasting Pac. If this were '99 I would be blasting Dead Prez. This is 2004 (now 2005) and Nas is the one saying. Besides I didn't start the thread, I just responded. I grew up as a white guy in a black area. Does that count as a minority? Even if it doesn't, I've visited Turkey as a Greek, that is certainly a minority. I know what it feels like to be put down for being of a different race. However that has no merit in this conversation. It's not Nas's racism as much as it is his insulting and name calling that bothers. It's his judging. He feels he's so spiritually enlightened but he doesn't show it. Tupac claimed to be a thug, and Chuck D claimed to be a pro black advocate. Nas claims to be Jesus. If Nas said "I feel all black guys should act like me", I'd chuckle but I won't post paragraphs on it.
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God not this again.
Be a minority, feel what it's like, then come back at this. You can't possibly do that, so you can't feel what Nas is saying. I love the song, I love the CD, and I'm one that has dated white women and went to an all white college. In fact, that even makes me feel it more. You guys may not like it, but it's a point of view that exist, and rappers like Public Enemy (Flava Flav should have been in that song too, wtf is he doing?) 2Pac, Ice Cube and many other hip-hop legends spoke on for many years. It's political conscience rap, something Nas does, and everyother rapper like him has songs like it, so don't trip. Why not put all the other songs on blast, why not put hip-hop on blast, why not talk about Ice Cube for doing White Cave Bitch, Public Enemy for calling white people devils and slave owners, and every other political/conscience rapper, and these are the guys people call positive rappers.
When will this conversation end?
If this were '91 I would be blasting Cube. If this were '95 I would be blasting Pac. If this were '99 I would be blasting Dead Prez. This is 2004 (now 2005) and Nas is the one saying. Besides I didn't start the thread, I just responded. I grew up as a white guy in a black area. Does that count as a minority? Even if it doesn't, I've visited Turkey as a Greek, that is certainly a minority. I know what it feels like to be put down for being of a different race. However that has no merit in this conversation. It's not Nas's racism as much as it is his insulting and name calling that bothers. It's his judging. He feels he's so spiritually enlightened but he doesn't show it. Tupac claimed to be a thug, and Chuck D claimed to be a pro black advocate. Nas claims to be Jesus. If Nas said "I feel all black guys should act like me", I'd chuckle but I won't post paragraphs on it.
and in 1988 you'd be blasting Chuck D... lol. Dude, slow your role. It's hip-hop, it's from a black point of view. There is suppose to be a Latino point of view in it, but we are silent. (Puerto Ricans were very key in the start of hip-hop) Anyway, you have your view, cool, but honestly, this is the United States, this is one of many many countries built off slaves back on stolen land. And it just so happens that no matter what, this country views certain people different, and Nas is responding to it the way he feels. Trust me, I've been there. Nas was very nice, he mainly focused on Kobe for being a false black hero, and then talked about rappers afterwards. The shot outs at the end were the only reference to the other people. I mean, a whole verse to Kobe. I'm a Laker fan, I have a Kobe jersey, but I can honestly say, if Shaq, Karl Malone, Nas (who did a song with Kobe called Thug Poet), Phil Jackson and other people are talking about this kid, isn't it time he check himself. You are getting heating for a Kobe dedication. LOL.
I actually want you to talk about everyone else. Talk about 1991-1993 Ice Cube (White Cave Bitch), 1988-now Public Enemy (everything), 1991 - 1994 2Pac (the Quicy Jones article and such), 1999-now Dead Prez (everything), 2001-2005 Nas (from calling the Twin Towers Karma to this latest song). Just get all your anger out for these people, get it all out and make yourself heard. 'Cause dammit, I'm tired of reading it all in seperate post. I want it all out in one post so I can read it all at once. Hell I wouldn't respond, I just want to hear you out.
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1) Didn't the introspective Folk movement of Bob Dylan have anything to do with influencing hip hop? How about hardrock? I swear I've heard Hendrix and Page solos that resemble scratching.
2) You won't ever read me getting my anger out because I don't have any. I don't "care" that Nas is doing this. I just know hypocrisy and contradiction when I see it, and I point it out. You may read my words and assume I have an angry tone, but if you were to hear me you'd know I'm not angry at all. I probabably shouldn't have used the word blast when I mentioned I'd respond to Chuck D etc. I don't blame you for assuming I have an angry tone. I can see why'd you'd think that.
3) If you feel that America is filled with false black role models that's fine. I feel it's filled with false white role models as well, (If by false you mean untrue). What makes Bill Cosby any different than Ward Cleaver? What makes Michael Jackson any different than Elvis? What makes Denzel any different than Mel Gibson (before his 600 million dollar pay day)? What makes Jay Z any different than Eminem? What makes Nas any different than Springsteen? All of these people came from lesser backgrounds and acheived unattainable status for 90%+ of the population. Many of them came from bad backgrounds that are still bad despite their fame. When Michael Jordan became a multi millionaire, Jim Brown called him a house nigger. A poster boy for blacks to look at and say "wow we can do that", but the ghettos weren't getting any better with his rise, so he was fake according to Brown. Did abandoned steel towns get revived when Larry Bird made his millions and was put on a pedestal? Did trailer parks diminish when Eminem became super rich? I don't see how black heroes are any less real than white ones.
4) Now this is an angry response (the others were not, and te angeris not aimed at you); I ABOSOLUTELY HATE KOBE. I NEVER LIKED HIM AND ALWAYS THOUGHT HE WAS OVERRATED. THE SHIT HE SAID ABOUT SHAQ AND ACCUSING HIM OF HAVING AFFAIRS WAS APPAULING, YET EXPECTED. My loyalty is not to Kobe, however I wouldn't call him less of a black man. Just a pathetic human being wth no guidance or judgement.
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1) Didn't the introspective Folk movement of Bob Dylan have anything to do with influencing hip hop? How about hardrock? I swear I've heard Hendrix and Page solos that resemble scratching.
I understand the rest of your post... but on this one... huh? ???
Hip-Hop is not so much based off scratching as it is looping. Basically in parties in New York, they'd play the popular records, but most were slow, and so they'd take the part that was fast, and loop it so you can dance to the beat. Over time, emcees would rhyme over the looped part. Everything feel into place from there. At least that's my understanding from people from NY that are huge Hip-Hop heads. I've read stuff like that too, but I was not there in the 70's, maybe you are right.
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Why do I got the feeling a majority of people getting pissed over this topic are of the caucasian race?
Take it from a black man: you're blowing this out of proportion.
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1) Didn't the introspective Folk movement of Bob Dylan have anything to do with influencing hip hop? How about hardrock? I swear I've heard Hendrix and Page solos that resemble scratching.
I understand the rest of your post... but on this one... huh? ???
Hip-Hop is not so much based off scratching as it is looping. Basically in parties in New York, they'd play the popular records, but most were slow, and so they'd take the part that was fast, and loop it so you can dance to the beat. Over time, emcees would rhyme over the looped part. Everything feel into place from there. At least that's my understanding from people from NY that are huge Hip-Hop heads. I've read stuff like that too, but I was not there in the 70's, maybe you are right.
Well I wouldn't even say I was right, because I don't know. I just look at the similarities and a few interviews I've seen. I heard someone (I think it was DMC) talking about Walk This Way, and he said that back in the day when he was young that DJs would cut rock records because the soul and Motown stuff was too soft. I don't know how common it was, but id it makes any difference, Walk This Way by Aerosmith from '78 is the exact same song as Walk This way by Aerosmith and Run DMC from '85. I even think Steve Tyler has a nicer flow.
With regards to the Dylan folk remark; Chuck D has stated his admiration for Steven Stills, a half black folk rocker from the 60s. He was on the He Got Game single and composed the original song it was sampled from. Stills as well as everyone else fromthe late 60s folk rock era has credited Dylan as an influence. Bob Dylan was the first to take complex rhyme patterns, and hidden lyrical messages of politics and injustice and put them in song. At least he's credited as such. If there was a guy before him, he isn't mentioned. Woody Guthrie was Dylan before Dylan, but Guthrie never took to the same levels as Dylan. I'll post some lyrics;
(It'll be a long read, so don't read if you don't want, but these are great lyrics).
This is It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding). It's got political views but the rhyme patterns and lyricism reminds me a lot of rapping. If you hear it it's evident.
Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying.
Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece
The hollow horn plays wasted words
Proves to warn
That he not busy being born
Is busy dying.
Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover
That you'd just be
One more person crying.
So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing.
As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred.
Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.
While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.
An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it.
Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.
You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks
They really found you.
A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.
Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.
For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something
They invest in.
While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him.
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.
But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him.
Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony.
While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes
Must get lonely.
My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me?
And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.
This is Subterranean Homesick Blues. The second verse really sounds like he's rapping.
Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I'm on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he's got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It's somethin' you did
God knows when
But you're doin' it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin' for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten
Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin' that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone's tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May
Orders from the D. A.
Look out kid
Don't matter what you did
Walk on your tip toes
Don't try "No Doz"
Better stay away from those
That carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You don't need a weather man
To know which way the wind blows
Get sick, get well
Hang around a ink well
Ring bell, hard to tell
If anything is goin' to sell
Try hard, get barred
Get back, write braille
Get jailed, jump bail
Join the army, if you fail
Look out kid
You're gonna get hit
But users, cheaters
Six-time losers
Hang around the theaters
Girl by the whirlpool
Lookin' for a new fool
Don't follow leaders
Watch the parkin' meters
Ah get born, keep warm
Short pants, romance, learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed
Try to be a success
Please her, please him, buy gifts
Don't steal, don't lift
Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light yourself a candle
Don't wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals
Don't wanna be a bum
You better chew gum
The pump don't work
'Cause the vandals took the handles
This is The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll. A poltical song about racial injustice when a rich white man murders a black maid. The rhyme scheme isn't complex but the message is bold for 1964.
William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll
With a cane that he twirled around his diamond ring finger
At a Baltimore hotel society gath'rin'.
And the cops were called in and his weapon took from him
As they rode him in custody down to the station
And booked William Zanzinger for first-degree murder.
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Take the rag away from your face.
Now ain't the time for your tears.
William Zanzinger, who at twenty-four years
Owns a tobacco farm of six hundred acres
With rich wealthy parents who provide and protect him
And high office relations in the politics of Maryland,
Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling,
In a matter of minutes on bail was out walking.
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Take the rag away from your face.
Now ain't the time for your tears.
Hattie Carroll was a maid of the kitchen.
She was fifty-one years old and gave birth to ten children
Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level,
Got killed by a blow, lay slain by a cane
That sailed through the air and came down through the room,
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle.
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger.
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Take the rag away from your face.
Now ain't the time for your tears.
In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom,
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'.
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished,
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance,
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence.
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears.
And for good measure here is the song that changed the face of popular music. It was the first hit single to go past the normal 2 to 3 minute mark, and went 6 minutes. It changed the way popular artists wrote and recorded songs. It was 1965 and it was "Like A Rolling Stone". A diss song to a girl. Possibly a lost love or a friend that took the wrong path.
Once upon a time you dressed so fine
You threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?
People'd call, say, "Beware doll, you're bound to fall"
You thought they were all kiddin' you
You used to laugh about
Everybody that was hangin' out
Now you don't talk so loud
Now you don't seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?
You've gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you're gonna have to get used to it
You said you'd never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?
You never turned around to see the frowns on the jugglers and the clowns
When they all come down and did tricks for you
You never understood that it ain't no good
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you
You used to ride on the chrome horse with your diplomat
Who carried on his shoulder a Siamese cat
Ain't it hard when you discover that
He really wasn't where it's at
After he took from you everything he could steal.
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?
Princess on the steeple and all the pretty people
They're drinkin', thinkin' that they got it made
Exchanging all kinds of precious gifts and things
But you'd better lift your diamond ring, you'd better pawn it babe
You used to be so amused
At Napoleon in rags and the language that he used
Go to him now, he calls you, you can't refuse
When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
You're invisible now, you got no secrets to conceal.
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?
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I didn't know you fellas had already batted this subject around. I read this post on Nas at allhiphop.com yesterday and it seemed like a good topic to discuss. However, it seems the debate has gotten a little out of perspective. My contention is, Nas and others like to point out that when a black men becomes successful and dates white women and don't talk ebonics you've 'sold out'. Then he has the audacity to lift up other men who have done the same things as those he said 'sold out'. Jim Brown was one of the first black men to lie with white women on film. Furthermore, I feel if a black man is successful because of hard work, he doesn't owe me or anyone else nothing. However, Nas won't dare say anything negative about a descent rapper with lyrical skills. He picks on movie stars and atheletes cause he knows if he puts a rapper on blast he might get his shit tested.
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its funny how all of the other supposed "black men" in this thread support another black man who wanted to do a fake lynching on stage. you will support nas when he talks shit about our own race, but yet, if he were to go at eminem for his racist comments, you bitches would probably start whining just like he is. you disgust me. brother j should talk some sense into this idiot.
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its funny how all of the other supposed "black men" in this thread support another black man who wanted to do a fake lynching on stage. you will support nas when he talks shit about our own race, but yet, if he were to go at eminem for his racist comments, you bitches would probably start whining just like he is. you disgust me. brother j should talk some sense into this idiot.
huh?
I'm not black... I'm Latino if you assume I was black. Just to let you know.
Anyway, this is how it is. We all grew up in communities that have supported us and helped us. We owe our communities a piece of our success. Why? Because we cannot make it without our community, our family, and our friends. You think Snoop could make it without his longtime wife. Now she left him because through thick and thin, she was there for him, supporting him and he sold her out by cheating on her like she was not important. Without our teachers, the people supporting us, we cannot make it in this world. The whole idea, we don't owe anyone shit, is a straight U.S. base ideology because we are capitalist, we like to think it's all our work that gets us were we are. But in reality it's like the old African saying, "it takes a village to raise a kid." and that's so true. From the churches that teach us religion, to the teachers that teaches us knowlegde, to the peers that become our peers and support us, to our high school girlfriends that give us blow jobs, they all have a part in our growing up, and we do owe our success to them. If not in money, at least reconized that these people had something to do with us. Show up, let the people know you love them for them supporting you before you became famous.
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I didn't know you fellas had already batted this subject around. I read this post on Nas at allhiphop.com yesterday and it seemed like a good topic to discuss. However, it seems the debate has gotten a little out of perspective. My contention is, Nas and others like to point out that when a black men becomes successful and dates white women and don't talk ebonics you've 'sold out'. Then he has the audacity to lift up other men who have done the same things as those he said 'sold out'. Jim Brown was one of the first black men to lie with white women on film. Furthermore, I feel if a black man is successful because of hard work, he doesn't owe me or anyone else nothing. However, Nas won't dare say anything negative about a descent rapper with lyrical skills. He picks on movie stars and atheletes cause he knows if he puts a rapper on blast he might get his shit tested.
is there rapper with lyrical skills like nas thats married to white women. before you say nas doesnt dare to do that.... cuz my opinion is that nas would crush any rapper alive in lyrics..
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is there rapper with lyrical skills like nas
i can answer this 1 lol no
yall taking this way too serious this is what nas wanted
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is there rapper with lyrical skills like nas
i can answer this 1 lol no
yall taking this way too serious this is what nas wanted
lol yes I geuss your right but I just wondered cuz he saying like nas is afraid... and I just wanted to tell my opinion thats nas aint scared..
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needs to go back to his i aim style
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nas is full of shit , dont beleive anything he raps about ,
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nas is like the only rapper who has no outside peeps tellin him what he can and cannot put in his music he makes his music just for him
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Nas is a racist. Why should he be allowed to say things like this? Nas used to be the best Lyricist but not any more, he too full of shit. Why does he go for Tiger? why not go for a rapper who lives the lifestyle of a "white" person. Cos he is full of shit. He realises he is past it so won't go after a rapper cos they will come back at him. The Guy is a racist who thinks he should be Dictator the guy doesn't know shit. why doesn't he give up all his money? Why should Tiger who has worked harder than nas give up his money.
The guy is a Fascist
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Nas is a racist. Why should he be allowed to say things like this? Nas used to be the best Lyricist but not any more, he too full of shit. Why does he go for Tiger? why not go for a rapper who lives the lifestyle of a "white" person. Cos he is full of shit. He realises he is past it so won't go after a rapper cos they will come back at him. The Guy is a racist who thinks he should be Dictator the guy doesn't know shit. why doesn't he give up all his money? Why should Tiger who has worked harder than nas give up his money.
The guy is a Fascist
is there rapper with lyrical skills like nas thats married to white women. before you say nas doesnt dare to do that.... cuz my opinion is that nas would crush any rapper alive in lyrics..