West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: J @ M @ L on February 08, 2006, 02:29:55 PM
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Europe's Defamation of the Prophet
by Mohamed Khodr
(Sunday February 05 2006)
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"...the only freedom of speech left in the west is bashing Islam otherwise it does have its limits."
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"O Mankind, We created you from a single pair of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you"
-- Quran 49:13
“In the developed countries there is a poverty of intimacy, a poverty of spirit, of loneliness, of lack of love. There is no greater sickness in the world today than that one."
-- Mother Teresa
The malicious, false depiction of Prophet, Muhammad (P), in defamatory cartoons published in Denmark’s Jylland-Posten then deliberately re-published in other European papers can only be understood as a renaissance of the Inquisition. Such defamation of the Prophet must be met with a civil lawsuit. A civil lawsuit squarely meets the legal requirement under Denmark’s and Europe’s “Defamatory Law.” The basic idea of defamation law is simple. It’s an attempt to balance the private right to protect one's reputation with the public right to freedom of speech.
According to the American and English Encyclopedia of Law, a libel is a malicious defamation expressed either by writing or printing or by signs, pictures, effigies or the like; tending to blacken the memory of one who is dead, or to impeach the honesty, integrity, virtue or reputation.
In Denmark, defamation provisions exist in the criminal code, dividing libel into two categories; “accusations” and “offensive words or conduct”. The latter category is not subject to proof of truth. Both types of criminal defamation require malicious intent. [1]
Under the Danish Constitution, Freedom of Expression is found under section 77. It states:
"Any person shall be at liberty to publish his ideas in print, in writing, and in speech, subject to being held responsible in a court of law”.
Under the Responsibility of Media Act (Act no. 348 of June 6, 1991), the author, publisher, and editors are responsible for their actions under the law. AND:
“While carrying out their tasks mass-media should recognize the need to take the individual citizens rights to personal integrity into account and recognize the need of non-infringement without due course”.
The updated Media Liability Act of1992 includes sections on Press Ethics entitled: “The National code of Conduct:” adopted by the Danish Parliament. The rules comprise all editorial materials (text and picture) published in the written periodical press...(that) comprise persons mentioned and depicted; including deceased persons…The Code requires that the press publish factual information, especially if susceptible to personal bias or tortuous intention which may be prejudicial or insulting to others.
Additionally, the Danish Penal Code: Section 266b States:
"Any person who publicly or with the intention of dissemination to a wide circle of people makes a statement or imparts other information threatening, insulting, or degrading a group of persons on account of their race, color, or national or ethnic origin, belief" or sexual orientation shall be liable to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years."
According to the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC):
"The terms "statement or other information" should be interpreted broadly. They cover both oral and written expressions, pictures, "CARICATURES".
For thirteen centuries Europe has never fathomed Islam and has defamed the moral character of its Messenger Muhammad (pbuh)--9/11 was the cataclysmic excuse to re-launch the Inquisition against Muslims--“convert to our civilized aspiritual secularism where “sacredness” is dead or reap the political, economic, media, and military onslaught. If “God is Dead” in our society, so must your faith be killed.”
Indeed the only freedom of speech left in the west is bashing Islam otherwise it does have its limits. In Europe you can be prosecuted for questioning the extant of the Holocaust or criticizing Israel’s policy given western indoctrination that such “freedom” is Anti-Semitic.” Israel and its bloody history is now the “Holy Grail” for the civilized west, the champions of human rights.
Being civilized begins with education and manifests in rational behavior. The rampant ignorance of Islam in Europe leads to an irrational fear and thus prejudice. Descartes would turn in his grave if he knows that his motto has been transformed into “I don’t think, therefore I’m civilized.”
Prophetically the famed Danish Philosopher Soren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) described the misuse of freedom of speech as:
“People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid.”
Freedom of Speech is selectively determined by governments, corporate medias who decide what’s seen and heard by the masses, the military-industrial complex, and corrupt politicians beholden to special interest money. Recently, freedom of lying speech allowed the powerful few Neocons, mostly Jewish, to influence the invasion of Iraq to secure Oil and Israel’s interests. America’s occupation of MidEast oil will prevent the rise of competitive powers and manipulate the economies of Europe, India, and China As William Hearst, the American media baron, declared to his reporters prior to the Spanish-American war: “you provide the pictures, I’ll provide the war.’ The “free” media has become the dumbed down “Delphi Oracle” of knowledge, opinions, and policies for the western masses.
In western history, God is the instrument for war, colonization, slavery, genocide and the Holocaust. Pope Urban II, Hitler, Theodore Herzl, and Bush Jr. publicly proclaimed doing God’s work while privately theft and death were on their minds.
Samuel Huntington, the historian and author of “Clash of Civilizations” described western avarice for land and wealth through military adventurism as: “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
Europe is shocked at Muslim anger when it’s the Muslims who are shocked by Europe’s depleted morality, sacredness, and respect of the “other.”
Freedom of speech is the western cloak and truest weapon of destruction; for missiles kill instantly while insults have a historical life, much like the Crusades.
Whitney Moore, Jr. in describing the western demonizing of the inferior “other” said: “We create an environment where it is alright to hate, to steal, to cheat, and to lie if we dress it up with symbols of respectability, dignity and love”.
Protests against European nations whose medias defamed the Prophet must be peaceful. The lives and properties of westerners must be respected and protected. However, Muslims must use all legal, political, and diplomatic means against such nations along with a stringent boycott of all their products. European governments must condemn these offensive cartoons but Muslims must understand that unlike our autocratic governments they don’t control the “free” press, some whose agenda is light the fire between Christianity and Islam.
The greatest harm to Islam in the eyes of the world is committed by Muslim terrorism against the innocent through murder or hijacking. Resist only the aggressors; that is true Islam.
The west has invaded and occupied our lands, killed our families, robbed our resources, decimated our language and culture, humiliated our humanity and marginalized our faith, and we’ve been silent far too long; but now we draw a line in the sand at the desecration of our Holy Qur’an and the insulting of our beloved Prophet.Enough is enough. It’s time you respected our faith and humanity, withdraw from our lands, stop supporting your dictators, and deal with us as equals. Let’s pray your humanity supersedes your worldly passions and greed before it’s too late. The majority in this world want peace, it’s time we demand it forcefully from our governments, and not Neo Cons, a biased media, and bought politicians determine our destiny. Muslims are willing to die for their faith, what is the west willing to die for? God is indeed Great.
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By the way... what happened to "Freedom of Speech" when the Jews were demanding that Mel Gibson take out certain parts in The Passion? How about every time the Anti-Defamation League files complaints? How about the fact that there are laws in Europe against the portrayal of anti-Semitic images in newspapers? If you guys want to talk about double-standards... don't forget little "minor details" like these.
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all i got to say is that , you people got better things to worry about than getting all butt hurt about a fucking cartoon.
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I remember the LA riots the good ole days 8)
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By the way... what happened to "Freedom of Speech" when the Jews were demanding that Mel Gibson take out certain parts in The Passion? How about every time the Anti-Defamation League files complaints? How about the fact that there are laws in Europe against the portrayal of anti-Semitic images in newspapers? If you guys want to talk about double-standards... don't forget little "minor details" like these.
Have you ever seen Christians or Jews react the way Muslims have in response to something offensive? All over a stupid cartoon nonetheless?
I don't think you understand the issue here. People aren't blaming Muslims for being offended. People are always sayings or doing things that piss off members of a particular religion. The problem begins when people react with violence or by call for the offenders to be arrested. That is going too far.
Jamal, if you want to live in a western country like the US, you have to learn to embrace our values.
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By the way... what happened to "Freedom of Speech" when the Jews were demanding that Mel Gibson take out certain parts in The Passion? How about every time the Anti-Defamation League files complaints? How about the fact that there are laws in Europe against the portrayal of anti-Semitic images in newspapers? If you guys want to talk about double-standards... don't forget little "minor details" like these.
No one is saying the Muslims don't have the right to protest the cartoon. It's the violent nature of the protest. If a group of Jews marched to Mel Gibson's house and set fire to it they'd be arrested.
"...the only [other] freedom of speech left in the west is bashing [Christianity] otherwise it does have its limits."
This one Muhammad cartoon is no worse than the countless number of Jesus satires that pop up every few weeks.
P.S. Before you tell me it's different because in Islam you aren't allowed to show Muhammad in pictures, could someone please show me where in the Quran it says you can't, and why the Muslim cultures in Iran and Turkey have had pictures of Muhammad for hundreds of years?
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By the way... what happened to "Freedom of Speech" when the Jews were demanding that Mel Gibson take out certain parts in The Passion? How about every time the Anti-Defamation League files complaints? How about the fact that there are laws in Europe against the portrayal of anti-Semitic images in newspapers? If you guys want to talk about double-standards... don't forget little "minor details" like these.
No one is saying the Muslims don't have the right to protest the cartoon. It's the violent nature of the protest. If a group of Jews marched to Mel Gibson's house and set fire to it they'd be arrested.
"...the only [other] freedom of speech left in the west is bashing [Christianity] otherwise it does have its limits."
This one Muhammad cartoon is no worse than the countless number of Jesus satires that pop up every few weeks.
P.S. Before you tell me it's different because in Islam you aren't allowed to show Muhammad in pictures, could someone please show me where in the Quran it says you can't, and why the Muslim cultures in Iran and Turkey have had pictures of Muhammad for hundreds of years?
well said
seriously, as a Muslim i am offended...but being violent over it will solve nothing
if you wanna boycott them, then go ahead...itz passive resistance and yo are making a statement peacefully which is wut Islamic principles are about
by acting violent, Islam not only gets a bad name but then it gets ppl thinking "oh Islam really is like that?"
why not try and sit down with the cartoonist or cartoonists who created those pictures and try figuring out what may have caused them to create it? it could've been some personal experience which may have lead them to make the cartoon images and maybe by talking things over with them could help.
being peaceful is how a Muslim should act...and ONLY when physical war is declared on you and you have tried creating peace but it has not succeeded because the other party is not willing to, then you must fight but STILL obey the Islamic rules of war.
and right now, for Shia Muslims especially because of the month of Muharram, we have to be peaceful as we know (or should know rather) what happened a few thousand years ago with the grandson of our Prophet Muahmmad, his family and the huge sacrifice he made...
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muslims be bitin the bait and gettin laid six feet deep.. that's what the fuck happens right now.
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all i got to say is that , you people got better things to worry about than getting all butt hurt about a fucking cartoon.
^^your right
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has any1 seen a cartoon with Jesus in a KKK robe infront of a burnin cross or Moses pickin up a penny off the floor in the western media ???
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^ no but i would probably laugh or atleast giggle to myself
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Anti-Semitic images ≠ Parodic caricatures
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^Im surprised u didnt delete this thread
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^^ Not surprised you have nothing to say about the issue itself, only about other posters like usual.
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this is another reason why religion was one of the worst ideas ever
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this is another reason why religion was one of the worst ideas ever
i doubt you have ever learned about the true teachings of Islam
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here is a brief description of Islam in about 600 words if you wish to learn about it
"The Truth About Islam" by The Wisdom Fund
http://www.twf.org/Truth/iCard1.pdf (Opens Automatically, if not click on the graphic with text in http://www.twf.org/Truth.html )
If you are interested in learning more i recommend http://www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm
this website has a lot of information on a lot of different topics
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This one Muhammad cartoon is no worse than the countless number of Jesus satires that pop up every few weeks.
I agree... but Muslims don't portray ANY prophets in such a way.
Imagine if they did.... Jesus fucking some little kid... and the title "Got Catholicism?"
There have been cartoons/satires attacking or clowning Muslims/Islam for years... nobody gives a shit... but portraying the prophet in such a way is different.
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Anti-Semitic images ≠ Parodic caricatures
Are you honestly saying that a picture of the Prophet with a bomb in his turban isn't anti-Islamic? Fucking fruitcake... go update the vault.
Besides... if European countries are printing these in the name of "freedom of speech"... then where does this freedom of speech go, when it comes to anti-Semitism? You were talking about a double-standard in the Middle East... check up on the double-standard in your own backyard, you chump.
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damn, you ethered him with the vault part
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By the way... what happened to "Freedom of Speech" when the Jews were demanding that Mel Gibson take out certain parts in The Passion? How about every time the Anti-Defamation League files complaints? How about the fact that there are laws in Europe against the portrayal of anti-Semitic images in newspapers? If you guys want to talk about double-standards... don't forget little "minor details" like these.
Have you ever seen Christians or Jews react the way Muslims have in response to something offensive? All over a stupid cartoon nonetheless?
I don't think you understand the issue here. People aren't blaming Muslims for being offended. People are always sayings or doing things that piss off members of a particular religion. The problem begins when people react with violence or by call for the offenders to be arrested. That is going too far.
Jamal, if you want to live in a western country like the US, you have to learn to embrace our values.
You don't even deserve a response from me.. you gay Polack... all I gotta say to you is...
Go watch your gay white on white porn, you fucking wienerschnitzel
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Under the Danish Constitution, Freedom of Expression is found under section 77. It states:
"Any person shall be at liberty to publish his ideas in print, in writing, and in speech, subject to being held responsible in a court of law”.
Under the Responsibility of Media Act (Act no. 348 of June 6, 1991), the author, publisher, and editors are responsible for their actions under the law. AND:
“While carrying out their tasks mass-media should recognize the need to take the individual citizens rights to personal integrity into account and recognize the need of non-infringement without due course”.
The updated Media Liability Act of1992 includes sections on Press Ethics entitled: “The National code of Conduct:” adopted by the Danish Parliament. The rules comprise all editorial materials (text and picture) published in the written periodical press...(that) comprise persons mentioned and depicted; including deceased persons…The Code requires that the press publish factual information, especially if susceptible to personal bias or tortuous intention which may be prejudicial or insulting to others.
Additionally, the Danish Penal Code: Section 266b States:
"Any person who publicly or with the intention of dissemination to a wide circle of people makes a statement or imparts other information threatening, insulting, or degrading a group of persons on account of their race, color, or national or ethnic origin, belief" or sexual orientation shall be liable to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years."
According to the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC):
"The terms "statement or other information" should be interpreted broadly. They cover both oral and written expressions, pictures, "CARICATURES".
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i'd love 2 be a lawyer rite now and stick it to those cartoonists 8)
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This one Muhammad cartoon is no worse than the countless number of Jesus satires that pop up every few weeks.
I agree... but Muslims don't portray ANY prophets in such a way.
Imagine if they did.... Jesus fucking some little kid... and the title "Got Catholicism?"
There have been cartoons/satires attacking or clowning Muslims/Islam for years... nobody gives a shit... but portraying the prophet in such a way is different.
The point is what is done not who is doing it. Personally I highly doubt the cartoonist was religious at all, and I doubt those that mock Jesus the way they do are religious either. If a Muslim drew those cartoons I doubt the riots wouldn't have started because he's a Muslim. Turning on the TV and seeing a wimpy Jesus get beat up by Satan in a boxing match is very offensive to Christian groups and I don't think it matters who is creating the satires.
Personally I think this has a lot more to do with the leaders in these Islamic countries creating havoc and chaos for their people for who knows what reasons. This wasn't the first time Muhammad has been portrayed in a satirical cartoon, but this is probably the first time the countries where the riots are have gone out of their way to let their people see a cartoon like this. I've always thought that when a country wants tomake changes the people won't like or do something questionable they'll get the people talking about something else while the government does whatever it is it wants to do. (This isn't a Muslim thing, it happens everywhere).
Anyway, look at these sites for evidence;
http://www.outpost911.com/
http://islamcomicbook.com/
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Anti-Semitic images ≠ Parodic caricatures
Are you honestly saying that a picture of the Prophet with a bomb in his turban isn't anti-Islamic? Fucking fruitcake... go update the vault.
Besides... if European countries are printing these in the name of "freedom of speech"... then where does this freedom of speech go, when it comes to anti-Semitism? You were talking about a double-standard in the Middle East... check up on the double-standard in your own backyard, you chump.
The Vault insult really hurt, you must have used days to come up with that one. :'(
Go cry like a bitch about comedies/parodies being insulting somewhere else, normal people can take a joke.
You'll never come up with proof that the caricatures were made to disseminate/degrade or insult islam, because it's not to be taken seriously, like 99% of ALL CARICATURES IN NEWSPAPERS, where the subject's distinctive features or peculiarities are deliberately exaggerated to produce a comic effect. Get this through your head, IT IS NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.
The laws for anti-semitism are so outdated, that no one will penalized for them.
Use some common sense for fucks sake, "which may be prejudicial or insulting to others."... oh yeah, no one have ever found something insulting or provoking in the newspapers. ::)
Like Shallow said, if those laws still applied, then dozens of people would already be convicted for portraying Jesus in a degrading/offensive way, we're not in 1880 any more.
The hilarious thing is that it was Danish MUSLIM LEADERS who started this whole controversy when they brought the caricatures to the Middle East, purposely to create chaos/riots, and they even brought some pictures from a French pig lookalike contest (!!!!), saying "this is how they portray Muhammed", LMAO. ;D
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muslims r pissed off at anne summers too now because of a blow up male doll they just released
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The laws for anti-semitism are so outdated, that no one will penalized for them.
Actually, just in these last few years more measures were taken by European governments to suppress any sort of anti-Semitic portrayal.
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the same danish newspaper that printed th caricatures of mohammad; had earlier declined to print a caricature of jesus and the ressurection because that would have been disrespectful and created a backlash.
http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,,1703500,00.html
The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny.
In April 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons dealing with the resurrection of Christ to Jyllands-Posten.
Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."
clearly the paper doesn't respect islam in the same manner that it does christianity. they can hide behind "freedom of speech" now, but the hypocrisy speaks otherwise.
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^^ Yep, that's a bad look for the newspaper, they should print them now to prove a important point, it would not be illegal at all.
It's not the newspaper (most) people are defending, it's the right to publish caricatures/parodies on religions, organizations, companies, countries, famous people, etc etc
The laws for anti-semitism are so outdated, that no one will penalized for them.
Actually, just in these last few years more measures were taken by European governments to suppress any sort of anti-Semitic portrayal.
Some ? Name them.
In free countries, laws like that are made to suppress extremists like nazists, KKK, terrorists, etc. from spreading hate propaganda and to avoid them recruiting new members, it's not made to stop newspapers from printing comic caricatures.
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muslims r pissed off at anne summers too now because of a blow up male doll they just released
Yeah because it's called Mustafa Shag lol.
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Please read the original post in its entirety... or just this excerpt....
Under the Danish Constitution, Freedom of Expression is found under section 77. It states:
"Any person shall be at liberty to publish his ideas in print, in writing, and in speech, subject to being held responsible in a court of law”.
Under the Responsibility of Media Act (Act no. 348 of June 6, 1991), the author, publisher, and editors are responsible for their actions under the law. AND:
“While carrying out their tasks mass-media should recognize the need to take the individual citizens rights to personal integrity into account and recognize the need of non-infringement without due course”.
The updated Media Liability Act of1992 includes sections on Press Ethics entitled: “The National code of Conduct:” adopted by the Danish Parliament. The rules comprise all editorial materials (text and picture) published in the written periodical press...(that) comprise persons mentioned and depicted; including deceased persons…The Code requires that the press publish factual information, especially if susceptible to personal bias or tortuous intention which may be prejudicial or insulting to others.
Additionally, the Danish Penal Code: Section 266b States:
"Any person who publicly or with the intention of dissemination to a wide circle of people makes a statement or imparts other information threatening, insulting, or degrading a group of persons on account of their race, color, or national or ethnic origin, belief" or sexual orientation shall be liable to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years."
According to the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC):
"The terms "statement or other information" should be interpreted broadly. They cover both oral and written expressions, pictures, "CARICATURES".
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^ Yeah, I saw the ones about Denmark, but who else ?
The Danish government officials already explained that they can not apologize on behalf of Jyllands-Posten since they didn't do anything illegal, so I can't see the big deal.
To defame somebody/something, you must deliberately spread slander or libel, in other words false or malicious info/statements, but we're talking about a cartoon here.
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"Any person who publicly or with the intention of dissemination to a wide circle of people makes a statement or imparts other information threatening, insulting, or degrading a group of persons on account of their race, color, or national or ethnic origin, belief" or sexual orientation shall be liable to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years."
According to the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC):
"The terms "statement or other information" should be interpreted broadly. They cover both oral and written expressions, pictures, "CARICATURES".
France also has anti-defamation laws in place.
A French court last week found three writers for Le Monde, as well as the newspaper’s publisher, guilty of “racist defamation” against Israel and the Jewish people. In a groundbreaking decision, the Versailles court of appeal ruled that a comment piece published in Le Monde in 2002, “Israel-Palestine: The Cancer,” had whipped up anti-Semitic opinion.
The writers of the article, Edgar Morin (a well-known sociologist), Daničle Sallenave (a senior lecturer at Nanterre University) and Sami Nair (a member of the European parliament), as well as Le Monde’s publisher, Jean-Marie Colombani, were ordered to pay symbolic damages of one euro to a human-rights group and to the Franco-Israeli association. Le Monde was also ordered to publish a condemnation of the article, which it has yet to do.
So what happened to "freedom of speech" there???
In my opinion, these people are trying to re-establish this notion of a "clash of civilizations" that was witnessed in the Middle Ages... the fact that Muslims responded in the way they did, only helped promote it.
If people still believe that this really has nothing to do with an attack on Islam/Muslims.. they really need to open their eyes. Freedom of speech?
If you think about it, things like this put these countries in the same category as let's say.. Saudi Arabia... before you jump to any conclusions, I'm not saying it's to the same extent or same manner, but I'm using the analogy as way of portraying the concept... the way the government looks upon the people's values. The Saudi Arabian government has this notion that "Islamic values" (which in their country aren't really Islamic to begin with)... are more important than Western values, and they totally disregard the values of the non-Muslims. In the same way, if Muslim values include that the Prophet shouldn't be depicted, especially not in the way that this newspaper did, and these countries are doing it in the name of "freedom of speech", they're putting their values above the values of the Muslims.
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The Danish government officials already explained that they can not apologize on behalf of Jyllands-Posten since they didn't do anything illegal, so I can't see the big deal.
To defame somebody/something, you must deliberately spread slander or libel, in other words false or malicious info/statements, but we're talking about a cartoon here.
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The rules comprise all editorial materials (text and picture) published in the written periodical press...(that) comprise persons mentioned and depicted; including deceased persons…The Code requires that the press publish factual information, especially if susceptible to personal bias or tortuous intention which may be prejudicial or insulting to others.
The Danish government officials already explained that they can not apologize on behalf of Jyllands-Posten since they didn't do anything illegal, so I can't see the big deal.
To defame somebody/something, you must deliberately spread slander or libel, in other words false or malicious info/statements, but we're talking about a cartoon here
Cartoons are included in "all editorial materials".
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The Danish government officials already explained that they can not apologize on behalf of Jyllands-Posten since they didn't do anything illegal
That's the bottom line.
Either the paragraph mentioned is a sleeping one, meaning: already outdated, or the Danish authorities figured what millions of other people figured, it's a joke. Or both.
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Just saw the edited post about France, do you have a link to it ?
I'd like to see what "racist defamation" they were convicted for as well, cartoons/caricatures is one thing, spreading hate propaganda or racism is a whole another case.
The freedom of speech doesn't go to well with racism, you can't say that a comic caricature is the same as spreading racism & hate, with the intent to create chaos/conflicts.
In the same way, if Muslim values include that the Prophet shouldn't be depicted, especially not in the way that this newspaper did, and these countries are doing it in the name of "freedom of speech", they're putting their values above the values of the Muslims.
Sharia laws does not apply here, except maybe in some muslim communities who thinks it stands over the countries own laws.
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The freedom of speech doesn't go to well with racism, you can't say that a comic caricature is the same as spreading racism & hate, with the intent to create chaos/conflicts.
A comic caricature can't be used to spread racism and hate? It doesn't have to be with the intent to create chaos/conflicts... but it can definitely spread racism/hate. The ones you posted about Jews coming from the Middle East attest to this. In the same way, Europe has used such caricatures to spread exactly that... racism/hate... for centuries... especially anti-Semitic ones... and anti-Islamic ones during the Middle Ages... used as propaganda for support of the crusades.
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A comic caricature can't be used to spread racism and hate? It doesn't have to be with the intent to create chaos/conflicts... but it can definitely spread racism/hate.
Sure it can, but I guess most people found the Danish caricatures comic, and not offensive, unlike the muslim world did.
If the newspaper was, say, Iran based, or Syria based, the whole newspaper staff would probably be locked up for good now.
The ones you posted about Jews coming from the Middle East attest to this.
Yup, but why wasn't there big reactions, protest marches, or riots after these pictures ?
It's all about perception, I doubt anybody could foresee riots or embassy torching over these cartoons, far worse things have been printed about Christianity.
All the Danish Imam's did, was bring more publicity to the pictures, and helped improve the tension on purpose, they're the big force between the whole conflict.
Europe has used such caricatures to spread exactly that... racism/hate... for centuries... especially anti-Semitic ones... and anti-Islamic ones during the Middle Ages... used as propaganda for support of the crusades.
It's a new day and a new world, most Western countries have thousands or millions of muslims in their countries, and all other races/religions, there's no crusade.
With all the suicide bombing and terror acts going on, in the majority of cases performed by muslims, it's almost strange that there hasn't been caricatures/parodies before..
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A comic caricature can't be used to spread racism and hate? It doesn't have to be with the intent to create chaos/conflicts... but it can definitely spread racism/hate.
Sure it can, but I guess most people found the Danish caricatures comic, and not offensive, unlike the muslim world did.
If the newspaper was, say, Iran based, or Syria based, the whole newspaper staff would probably be locked up for good now.
GOOD JOB SHERLOCK... IT AMAZES ME HOW WELL YOU PUT 2 AND 2 TOGETHER THERE... "MOST PEOPLE FOUND IT COMIC, NOT OFFENSIVE, UNLIKE THE MUSLIM WORLD".... ONE CAN ONLY WONDER WHY THAT IS SO... LOLLLL
The ones you posted about Jews coming from the Middle East attest to this.
Yup, but why wasn't there big reactions, protest marches, or riots after these pictures ?
It's all about perception, I doubt anybody could foresee riots or embassy torching over these cartoons, far worse things have been printed about Christianity.
All the Danish Imam's did, was bring more publicity to the pictures, and helped improve the tension on purpose, they're the big force between the whole conflict.
I NEVER STATED THAT RIOTS/EMBASSY TORCHINGS WERE FORESEEN.
Europe has used such caricatures to spread exactly that... racism/hate... for centuries... especially anti-Semitic ones... and anti-Islamic ones during the Middle Ages... used as propaganda for support of the crusades.
It's a new day and a new world, most Western countries have thousands or millions of muslims in their countries, and all other races/religions, there's no crusade.
With all the suicide bombing and terror acts going on, in the majority of cases performed by muslims, it's almost strange that there hasn't been caricatures/parodies before..
I DIDN'T SAY THERE WAS A CRUSADE GOING ON. IT'S THE CONCEPT... THAT THERE IS A NOTION OF A "CLASH OF CIVILIZATION". THERE HAVE BEEN PARODIES BEFORE... YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE BEEN LIVING UNDER A ROCK TO NOT KNOW THAT. THE MUSLIMS AREN'T ANGRY ABOUT "BEING MADE FUN OF".... IT'S THE DEPICTION OF THE PROPHET IN THIS WAY THAT THEY'RE RIOTING OVER.
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How about that France link ?
Would be more interesting to see what Le Monde printed, and got convicted for, than arguing over some petty unimportant cartoons.
And another thing:
A comic caricature can't be used to spread racism and hate? It doesn't have to be with the intent to create chaos/conflicts... but it can definitely spread racism/hate. The ones you posted about Jews coming from the Middle East attest to this. In the same way, Europe has used such caricatures to spread exactly that... racism/hate... for centuries... especially anti-Semitic ones... and anti-Islamic ones during the Middle Ages... used as propaganda for support of the crusades.
The last crusade ended in 1291. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
The printing press was invented in the 1450's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press
How could Europe print caricatures/cartoon propaganda to drum up support for the crusades if the printing press hadn't been invented yet?
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Here is a link to the article:
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/lemonde.article.htm
It is kind of sad to see you lacking common sense and being this ignorant... but here is one example:
(http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/euro_medi_ren/Mahumeth.jpg)
Year: 1162
And I'm sure you're familiar with Dante's work? (or maybe not)
Anything else?
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France also has anti-defamation laws in place.
france, denmark, norway, germany, greece, britain all have these laws on the books. germany is possibly the most extreme; apparently it's illegal to simply deny the halocaust in germany.
a civil suit has been brought against the newspaper in denmark and it was dismissed. i believe a similar case was also dismissed in france over the reprinting. "freedom of speech" was cited.
this looks like another double standard. to dismiss the case is to suggest that freedom of speech supercedes these laws against derogatory, defamatory statements made against religions. which renders these anti-defamatory and anti-blasphemy laws effectively useless. most people understand that freedom of speech has limits. you can't yell fire in a movie theater and cause a false panic.
in the u.s. you probably won't see cartoons in national newspapers lampooning blacks, the types of cartoons that once were deemed acceptable. loony toons (warner bros) has taken certain cartoons that were racially insensitive out of circulation. agatha christie's novel "and then there were none" had it's title changed as the original title was "ten little niggers" and later "ten little indians". it's really not censorship when it's a question of images or languages that can be considered either obscene or defamatory. most people accept that there must be limits somewhere.
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This one Muhammad cartoon is no worse than the countless number of Jesus satires that pop up every few weeks.
well, technically i believe a jesus satire is just as bad because none of the prophets should have their image or likeness reproduced. i believe the reason for this practice is specifically to prevent people from worshipping any of the prophets, as some have done with jesus.
P.S. Before you tell me it's different because in Islam you aren't allowed to show Muhammad in pictures, could someone please show me where in the Quran it says you can't, and why the Muslim cultures in Iran and Turkey have had pictures of Muhammad for hundreds of years?
i believe it's only acceptable among the shia to do so. ofcourse, the image was disrespectful so the shia were also pissed. you're treading on a slippery slope when you start trying to argue dogma; but your argument basically amounts to "in this sense the shia get islam right, and the sunnis have islam wrong". is that the argument you wish to make?
especially if you wish to turn around and use that logic to disparage established customs and beliefs that may be outside the qu'ran. all religions tend to establish traditions that are outside the various holy texts.
for example, if you ask the seventh day adventists, they will tell you that all other christian denominations are going to hell because they do not keep the sabbath. i've actually sat through sda sermons where there was a chart of other religions and other denominations of christianity and the explanations of what all of them were doing wrong that was going to land them in hell.
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It is kind of sad to see you lacking common sense and being this ignorant... but here is one example:
(http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/euro_medi_ren/Mahumeth.jpg)
Year: 1162
OWN GOAL, the text in French below the picture sonned your whole argument.
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/euro_medi_ren/
Illustration depicting a schematized Mohammed from an early medieval Latin translation of the Koran, from a manuscript in la Bibliotheque de l'Arsenal, in Paris. This may be the earliest known depiction of Mohammed, possibly dating from the mid-12th century. This reproduction is from the book Naissance de l'Europe, by Robert S. Lopez (published 1962) (taken from Deux traductions latines du Coran, by Marie-Therese D'Alverny [published 1948]).
If you can't prove it, make it up.
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What are you talking about "make it up"?
All I was showing you is they're able to create such images without the printing press.
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You tried to prove that Europeans did it before the press was invented, when it was in fact taken from the Koran, no wonder you didn't post a link. You're beating a dead horse.
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You tried to prove that Europeans did it before the press was invented, when it was in fact taken from the Koran, no wonder you didn't post a link. You're beating a dead horse.
What the hell are you smoking? There are no images in the Qur'an. The Europeans translated the Qur'an and included such images in it. Do you get it?
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What the hell are you smoking? There are no images in the Qur'an. The Europeans translated the Qur'an and included such images in it. Do you get it?
lol! checkmate!
Illustration depicting a schematized Mohammed from an early medieval Latin translation of the Koran
the caption on the image states that the image is a "caricature", and the summary calls the image schematic, suggesting that it is so simplistic it could have been interpretted as an insult. we are now talking about a derogatory image placed within a latin translation of the qu'ran itself. it doesn't get any more disrespectful than that.
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The koran is of no interest to me, but since it is to you:
Medieval and Renaissance Christian and secular artists had no religious restrictions regarding depictions of Mohammed, and were free to show his face and body in their entirety.
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/euro_medi_ren/
Besides, it happened in 1162... uhhhhh, get over it ? Time to move on ?
On a newer note, an Egyptian newspaper printed the Mohammed caricatures back in October 2005, it obviously wasn't offensive then..
UNTIL this Danish Imam managed to shake up the muslim community with his picture book, when he brought the book to a Islam Conference in December 2005:
Danish imam Ahmed Akkari, to the left with his picture book, which also includes pictures from a French pig lookalike contest, for unknown(!!??) reasons:
(http://www.vg.no/bilder/edrum/1139573923549_828.jpg) (http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/45/457/457446/1akkari_280.jpg)
"Organisation of the Islamic Conference" (IOC) in December 2005:
(http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/45/457/457446/motesak858.jpg)
Why did they make a big deal out it ??
There was no interest in the pictures before this meeting, even though the pictures had already been printed in several countries, including one of Egypts biggest newspapers Al Fagr, Islam being the state religion in Egypt, where 90% or more of the population are muslims!!!
Al-Fagr, October 17th 2005:
(http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/45/457/457379/sandmonkey_503.jpg)
It wasn't offensive since it was printed in a muslim country ??
You can preach all you want about Europes crusade against Islam, and the root of all evil blah blah, but it was muslim leaders who actually turned the worlds attention to these caricatures, and also turned the attention towards pictures of these pictures of a French pig contest:
(http://www.vg.no/bilder/bildarkiv/1139391048.74677.jpg)
WTF.
If it had not been for these Danish imams, and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, the world would never even have heard, much less seen, these caricatures.
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The last crusade ended in 1291. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
The printing press was invented in the 1450's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press
How could Europe print caricatures/cartoon propaganda to drum up support for the crusades if the printing press hadn't been invented yet?
(http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/euro_medi_ren/Mahumeth.jpg)
Year: 1162
Illustration depicting a schematized Mohammed from an early medieval Latin translation of the Koran, from a manuscript in la Bibliotheque de l'Arsenal, in Paris. This may be the earliest known depiction of Mohammed, possibly dating from the mid-12th century. This reproduction is from the book Naissance de l'Europe, by Robert S. Lopez (published 1962) (taken from Deux traductions latines du Coran, by Marie-Therese D'Alverny [published 1948]).
If you can't prove it, make it up.
You tried to prove that Europeans did it before the press was invented, when it was in fact taken from the Koran, no wonder you didn't post a link. You're beating a dead horse.
What the hell are you smoking? There are no images in the Qur'an. The Europeans translated the Qur'an and included such images in it. Do you get it?
The koran is of no interest to me, but since it is to you:
Medieval and Renaissance Christian and secular artists had no religious restrictions regarding depictions of Mohammed, and were free to show his face and body in their entirety.
Besides, it happened in 1162... uhhhhh, get over it ? Time to move on ?
LMAO.
- You bring up the time difference of the printing press and the crusades
- I show you an example from 1162 to prove you wrong
- You say it was taken from a Koran
- It was actually included in a European translation of the Qur'an because the Qur'an doesn't even have pictures
- You get sonned
- You then say that the Qur'an is of no importance to you (even though you were the one who first mentioned it... with that retarded statement of yours... all I did is once again point out your ignorance and stupidity)
- Then you say "it happened in 1162, get over it"... LOLLLLL you're the one that brought up the whole issue of the crusades / printing press time difference... all I did is show you an example.
Too funny. Jome gets ethered again. 8)
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And now as usual... to divert attention from his stupidity... Jome comes with...
On a newer note.... (BLAH BLAH BLAH I GOT SONNED, SO I'M GONNA START TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE NOW)
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Your whole "Europe defames.. anti-Semitic big evil enemy, crusade blah blah" got turned down and rejected, so you went back to 1162 and off-topic, good job Sherlock.
I keep shutting down your arguments, and you keep bringing up unrelated shit from centuries ago, you're getting shut down over and over again, then repeat x 5.(http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/Themes/dubcc/images/post/thumbdown.gif)
Muslim leaders are the catalyst behind the whole controversy, hilarious how you skipped that part, I go on-topic while you stray off-topic to escape embarrassment. :D
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Your whole "Europe defames.. anti-Semitic big evil enemy, crusade blah blah" got turned down and rejected, so you went back to 1162 and off-topic, good job Sherlock.
I keep shutting down your arguments, and you keep bringing up unrelated shit from centuries ago, you're getting shut down over and over again, then repeat x 5.(http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/Themes/dubcc/images/post/thumbdown.gif)
Muslim leaders are the catalyst behind the whole controversy, hilarious how you skipped that part, I go on-topic while you stray off-topic to escape embarrassment. :D
LMAO... I went back to 1162?
The last crusade ended in 1291. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
The printing press was invented in the 1450's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press
How could Europe print caricatures/cartoon propaganda to drum up support for the crusades if the printing press hadn't been invented yet?
All I did is answer your question and son you. Nice try Jomothug.... but you can't dig yourself out of this one. You may need to delete this thread.
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You tried to prove that Europeans did it before the press was invented, when it was in fact taken from the Koran, no wonder you didn't post a link. You're beating a dead horse.
What the hell are you smoking? There are no images in the Qur'an. The Europeans translated the Qur'an and included such images in it. Do you get it?
That ether
You can kiss your ass goodbye... :-* :-*
Seriously... think about how stupid you are... the description says the picture was included in a translation of the Qur'an... and you say "when it was in fact taken from the Koran".... LMAO.... you're that fucking ignorant... and lack the ability to comprehend a simple sentence... you can't put 2 and 2 together... and you're here talking about "shutting shit down"... Norwegro please
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muslims rather swallow their blood before they swallow their pride
they showed them the cartoons so they would act like they act and europe starts holdin grudges against them so the US can have another war to continue its crusade without europe giving a shit
niggaz got played
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Keep going back to the crusades in the 11th to 13th century Janal, you still lost the whole thread, now you trying to save crumbles by getting bonus point by going back to the middle age, because you lost the whole main argument and got shut the fuck down, "Europe's defamation of the prophet" turned into be executive directed and orchestrated by muslim leaders in IOC, here's a reminder for your short memory:
On a newer note, an Egyptian newspaper printed the Mohammed caricatures back in October 2005, it obviously wasn't offensive then..
UNTIL this Danish Imam managed to shake up the muslim community with his picture book, when he brought the book to a Islam Conference in December 2005:
Danish imam Ahmed Akkari, to the left with his picture book, which also includes pictures from a French pig lookalike contest, for unknown(!!??) reasons:
(http://www.vg.no/bilder/edrum/1139573923549_828.jpg) (http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/45/457/457446/1akkari_280.jpg)
"Organisation of the Islamic Conference" (IOC) in December 2005:
(http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/45/457/457446/motesak858.jpg)
Why did they make a big deal out it ??
There was no interest in the pictures before this meeting, even though the pictures had already been printed in several countries, including one of Egypts biggest newspapers Al Fagr, Islam being the state religion in Egypt, where 90% or more of the population are muslims!!!
Al-Fagr, October 17th 2005:
(http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/4/45/457/457379/sandmonkey_503.jpg)
It wasn't offensive since it was printed in a muslim country ??
You can preach all you want about Europes crusade against Islam, and the root of all evil blah blah, but it was muslim leaders who actually turned the worlds attention to these caricatures, and also turned the attention towards pictures of these pictures of a French pig contest:
(http://www.vg.no/bilder/bildarkiv/1139391048.74677.jpg)
WTF.
If it had not been for these Danish imams, and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, the world would never even have heard, much less seen, these caricatures.
Ouch, can't talk your way out of that one.
Maybe you can find something totally unrelated in the history books to go back on ?
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usually if someone has to tell you that you got ethered by him he's the one who looks like a fuckin idiot :)
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Jome is winning this debate.
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Keep going back to the crusades in the 11th to 13th century Janal, you still lost the whole thread, now you trying to save crumbles by getting bonus point by going back to the middle age, because you lost the whole main argument and got shut the fuck down, "Europe's defamation of the prophet" turned into be executive directed and orchestrated by muslim leaders in IOC, here's a reminder for your short memory:
Did you not ask how they created these images if the printing press wasn't even invented?
I was right, you were wrong.
Then you say it was in the Koran.
I point out your stupidity because the Qur'an doesn't contain any images. The Europeans included the image in their translation.
You asked for something from the histrory books.... I served it.
Checkmate.
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Keep going back to the crusades in the 11th to 13th century Janal, you still lost the whole thread, now you trying to save crumbles by getting bonus point by going back to the middle age, because you lost the whole main argument and got shut the fuck down, "Europe's defamation of the prophet" turned into be executive directed and orchestrated by muslim leaders in IOC, here's a reminder for your short memory:
Did you not ask how they created these images if the printing press wasn't even invented?
I was right, you were wrong.
Then you say it was in the Koran.
I point out your stupidity because the Qur'an doesn't contain any images. The Europeans included the image in their translation.
You asked for something from the histrory books.... I served it.
Checkmate.
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You tried to prove that Europeans did it before the press was invented, when it was in fact taken from the Koran, no wonder you didn't post a link. You're beating a dead horse.
No it wasn't. You just can't read, you're dumb, and you're ignorant.
:-*
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Yeah, you got me Janal, I don't give a shit about the koran, feel free to say that I'm ignorant about the koran, 1 "special" point for you, would you like a cookie with that ?
usually if someone has to tell you that you got ethered by him he's the one who looks like a fuckin idiot :)
Jome is winning this debate.
Word.
Now, back to the REAL issue in this thread ?
I still don't see no reply to the Egypt pictures, "Europe's defamation of the prophet" turned into be executive directed and orchestrated by muslim leaders in IOC, you already got the reminder, but I don't see no reply to it, your thread got shut down, because you're brainwashed to think that the world is against muslims.
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Thanks for acknowledging my W and your ignorance.
"If it had not been for these Danish imams, and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, the world would never even have heard, much less seen, these caricatures."
And the fact that not as many people would know about it makes it alright?
It's their fault for exposing it....I guess everybody should just turn a blind eye to everything that goes on in the world then
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^ Ahaha, this guy is an idiot
some random egyptian paper ran the pictures before? the hell does that mean? it wasntshown to the muslim world, they werent aware of it, the second they did they protested
do u even know what u are arguin
and lol @ u quotin c walker's props
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LOL, the 2 biggest brainwashed tools on WCC talking like they hold weight, or like they know what's going on in Europe.
Stick to what you know, pull out the koran and bow down, slaves. :loco:
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^ See this is why we tell u to fukk off because u dont know noone, nothing , nada about TOT and who the characters here are
me and jamal aint even on that religious tip. we on that political tip. so tell me what are we brainwashed under?
arer we brainwashed by religion? we're both rather secular, and usually stay clear of posts that have areligious aspect to it
are we brainwashed by the discourse and misconceptions perpetuated in the muslim world? maybe/
if we didnt LIVE IN TORONTO AND CALIFORNIA.
So tell me now, what are we brainwashed under? we're notmaking obscene statements. we're attackin misconceptions and wrong assumptions that form the basis of ur argument.
that doesnt come from being brainwashed, it comes from reading u stupid fuck. it comes from being actively engaged in discourse. it comes from havin a passion for politics, so u can stomach the bullshit and shift through the propoganda to find the truth.
really now who are u foolin? u obviously dont know politics? i mean i dont understand why the right to have an opinion all of a sudden became the right to talk about things u know nothin about.
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I talk of things I know nothing about ?? :D
Don't make me laugh, you two are sitting over in U.S. and Canada, preaching about Europes war on muslims, or even Europes crusades (LOL) on muslims, when you got no first hand knowledge on the matter, I don't know where you get your opinions or information from, probably the koran, islam.com or something, but it's obvious to anybody with half a brain that it's not unbiased balanced information you're bringing to the table, it's all based about how poor righteous holy muslims are so repressed and discriminated by the big industrial governments of Europe and U.S., the big blasphemous disbelievers.
It would be like me trying to preach about white people being oppressed in U.S. because the immigrants are being favored, it's that absurd.
Whether you're on the political tip or the religious tip is unimportant when all your arguments are all totally permeated by religion.
are we brainwashed by the discourse and misconceptions perpetuated in the muslim world? maybe/
For once, you're on to something..
Maybe I exaggerated when I called you the 2 biggest brainwashed tools, it's hard to competed with Infinite aka Allahs self-proclaimed slave.
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Youre Jome
Im Tech
close thread
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Good to see you had no objections to that. Wish granted.