West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: coola on April 04, 2006, 02:06:49 AM
-
The Forgotten Holocaust: The Eastern Slave Trade
The Arab Slave Trade is the longest yet least discussed of the two major trades. It begins in the 7th century AD as Arabs and other Asians poured into Northern and Eastern Africa under the banner of Islam, either converting or subjugating the African societies they came upon. In the beginning there was some level of mutual respect between the Blacks and the more Caucasian-Semitic Arabs. Mihdja, a Black man, is said to be the first Muslim killed in battle while another, Bilal, is regarded as a "third of the faith." Dhu'l-Nun al-Misri, born in Upper Egypt near Sudan, is regarded as the founder of Sufism. Today Sufism's greatest stronghold is in Southern Egypt and Sudan. Islamic prosperity was based upon Black as well as Arabic genius.
The children of a stinking Nubian black---God put no light in their complexion!
Arab Poet, late 600AD,
But as Islamic prosperity grew, so did an air of hostility towards many Blacks, Muslims or otherwise. Some Arabs complained about having to work next to Blacks in high positions. After the Prophet's death, even the descendants of Bilal received negative treatment. Arabic writings became laced with anti-Black sentiment. This reaction of Blacks at the time to this can be seen in the writings of a contemporary 9th Century Black scholar in residence at Baghdad by the name of Abu 'Uthman' Amr Ibn Bahr Al-Jahiz. Al-Jahiz, to confront a growing tide of anti-black sentiment in the Muslim world, published a highly controversial work at the time titled, Kitab Fakhr As-Sudan 'Ala Al-Bidan, "The Book of Glory of the Blacks over the Whites." Al-Jahiz in his work contended that even the Prophet Mohammad's father may have been of African lineage.
These new attitudes towards Blacks by Arabs marked the beginning of African enslavement. Though not based solely on race, the Arab Slave Trade did focus heavily upon Africans whom Arabs now saw as inferior to themselves. At first these Arabs raided African villages themselves seeking humans for sale. This not being always successful, they soon enlisted the aid of fellow African Muslims or recently converted Blacks. Wrapping themselves within Islam, these converts rationalized the slavery of their non Muslim brethren as the selling of "unbelievers." At other times the Arabs would demand tribute in the form of human bodies from Africans weary of the fight against Arabic-Islamic incursions.
The Arabs took advantage of regional wars in Africa to buy captives from the victor. They also used the old divide-and-conquer technique. They worked one group against the other and took or killed the best and strongest.
S.E. Anderson, The Black Holocaust for Beginners
Slave Raids and Markets
The Arab slavers raided at nightfall, during the dinner time. Africans who resisted or tried to run were shot and killed. Most adult men were killed as the Arabs favored women and children for sale. The captives then endured a long and torturous march through the African countryside as the slavers searched and gathered more captives. Young men, women, and children were bound by hand and by neck throughout this journey, enduring beatings and rapes along the way. Those who fell sick or dead were left behind. Others remained bound to living captives.
After surviving the torturous ride aboard the Arab slave ships, Africans were taken to the slave markets. Here Muslim men would inspect their intended purchases. Women and young girls were degradingly probed by these men in public or private stalls to test their sexual worth. Those that did not survive their time in these markets were left out to rot. It is said that that hyenas, very numerous in the region, "gorged themselves on human flesh..." Pictured here is a slave market in East Africa.
Concubines and Eunuchs
Pictured here is an African trader (possibly an Egyptian)with two Sudanese slave girls for sale. The African is a Muslim while the girls are not. The Eastern Slave Trade dealt primarily with African women: a ratio of two women for each man. These women and young girls were used by Arabs and other Asians as concubines. Filling the harems of wealthy Arabs, they often bore them a host of children. This sexual abuse of African women would continue for nearly 1200 years.
The Eastern Slave Trade also dealt in the sale of castrated male slaves: Aghas or eunuchs. Used as guards and tutors, these slaves were central to familial peace, protection and order in many wealthy Muslim households. Eunuchs were created by completely amputating the scrotum and penis of 8-to-12-year-old African boys. Hundreds of thousands of young boys may have been subjected to this genital mutilation. Many bled to death during the gory procedure. The survival rate of this process ranged from 1 in 10 to 1 in 30.
Holocaust: The Numbers
Due to the enormous length of the Arab Slave Trade, from 700 to 1911AD, it is impossible to be certain of the numbers of Africans sold in this system. Estimates place the numbers somewhere around 14 million: at least 9.6 million African women and 4.4 African men.
It has been estimated that in all, at least 14 to 20 MILLION African men, women and children died throughout this trade. (Photos and Information courtesy of The Black Holocaust for Beginners by SE Anderson, A Pictorial History of the Slave Trade, Slave Trade of Eastern Africa by Beachy, Slavery in the Arab World by Gordon Murray and Africa in History by Basil Davidson)
ok, so who started black enslavement ?
so why am i discussing this ? am i saying arabs are worse than whites ? you decide... just call me racist, doesnt really affect me...
-
so whites did this, whites did that... were such bad people... hey guess what !! youre just as bad fuckers !
Slavery in the Arab World
Murray Gordon
New Amsterdam Books, New York, NY 1989
In his fact-filled work on the history of the Muslim Arab slave trade in Africa, Murray Gordon notes that this trade pre-dated the European Christian African slave trade by a thousand years and continued for more than a century after the Europeans had abolished the practice. Gordon estimates the number of slaves “harvested” from Black Africa over the period of the Muslim Arab slave trade at 11 million – roughly equal to the number taken by European Christians for their colonies in the New World.
“Despite the long history of slavery in the Arab World and in other Muslim lands, little has been written about this tragedy,” writes Gordon in his introduction. “Except for the few abolitionists, mainly in England, who railed against Arab slavery and put pressure upon Western governments to end the traffic in slaves, the issue has all but been ignored in the West.”
‘Conspiracy of Silence’ on Arab Slave Trade
Gordon decries a “conspiracy of silence. . .[that] has blocked out all light on this sensitive subject.” Among scholars in the Arab world, the author points out, “No moral opprobrium has clung to slavery since it was sanctioned by the Koran and enjoyed an undisputed place in Arab society.”
The book starts out with a brief outline of the growth of the Islamic attitude toward slavery. There is no evidence that Muhammad sought to abolish slavery, notes Gordon, although he urged slave-owners to treat their slaves well and grant them freedom as a meritorious deed.
“Some Muslim scholars have taken this to mean that his true motive was to bring about a gradual elimination of slavery. Far more persuasive is the argument that by lending the moral authority of Islam to slavery, Muhammad assured its legitimacy. Thus, in lightening the fetter, he riveted it ever more firmly in place.”
High Rate of Black African Casualties
While Gordon acknowledges that at times the Islamic version of slavery could be more “humane” than the European colonial version, he provides many facts which point out that the Muslim variety of slavery could be extremely cruel as well.
One particularly brutal practice was the mutilation of young African boys, sometimes no more than 9 or ten years old, to create eunuchs, who brought a higher price in the slave markets of the Middle East. Slave traders often created “eunuch stations” along the major African slave routes where the necessary surgery was performed in unsanitary conditions. Gordon estimates that only one out of every 10 boys subjected to the mutilation actually survived the surgery.
The taking of slaves – in razzias, or raids, on peaceful African villages – also had a high casualty rate. Gordon notes that the typical practice was to conduct a pre-dawn raid on an unsuspecting village and kill off as many of the men and older women as possible. Young women and children were then abducted as the preferred “booty” for the raiders.
Young women were targeted because of their value as concubines or sex slaves in markets. “The most common and enduring purpose for acquiring slaves in the Arab world was to exploit them for sexual purposes,” writes Gordon. “These women were nothing less than sexual objects who, with some limitations, were expected to make themselves available to their owners. . .Islamic law, as already noted, catered to the sexual interests of a man by allowing him to take as many as four wives at one time and to have as many concubines as his purse allowed.” Young women and girls were often “inspected” before purchase in private areas of the slave market by the prospective buyer.
Racism Toward Black Africans
Some of Gordon’s research disputes the oft-repeated charge that racism did not play a part in Islamic slave society. While it is true that the Muslims of the Middle East took slaves of all colors and ethnicities, they considered white slaves more valuable than black ones and developed racist attitudes toward the darker skinned people.
Even the famous Arab philosopher Ibn Khaldun, expressed racist attitudes toward black Africans: “The only people who accept slavery are the Negroes, owing to their low degree of humanity and their proximity to the animal stage,” Khaldun wrote. Another Arab writer, of the 14th Century, asked: “Is there anything more vile than black slaves, of less good and more evil than they?”
Gordon covers the Arab/African slave trades up until the mid-20th Century, noting that Saudi Arabia only abolished the practice in the early 1960s. Unlike the European nations and the USA, the Arab nations did not abolish African slavery voluntarily out of moral conscience, but due to considerable economic and military pressure applied by the great colonial powers of time, France and Britain. Slavery is still practiced in two Islamic nations: The Sudan and Mauritania.
Further reading about the Arab/Muslim slave trades can be found in the following book:
Race and Slavery in the Middle East
Bernard Lewis
Oxford University Press (Trade); Reprint edition (April 1992)
An excerpt from this book can be found here
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html
To learn more about the 21st Century slave conditions in The Sudan and Mauritania, please visit www.iabolish.org
# # #
White Slaves, African Masters
An Anthology of American Barbary Captivity Narratives
Edited and with an introduction by Paul Baepler
The University of Chicago Press 1999
This book illuminates a subject once well-known in the history of the West but which is now somewhat neglected: the enslavement, over several centuries, of tens of thousands of white Christian Europeans and (later) Americans in Muslim North Africa -- or the so-called “Barbary” states of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli. Over the course of 10 centuries, tens of thousands of these unfortunates became the possessions of Muslims in North Africa courtesy of the feared Barbary pirates. These pirates cruised the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean in search of European and, later, American ships to pillage and plunder.
Edited by a lecturer at the University of Minnesota, Paul Baepler, this book focuses on first-person accounts of American Christians who served as slaves to high-ranking Muslim officials in North Africa. Baepler also provides fascinating background commentary that puts the narratives into historical perspective. He includes two “fictional” narratives of female captives. (According to Baepler, Christian women captives of the Barbary states – unlike male captives – usually did not publish their testimonies under their real names, due to the fact that many of them had been “dishonored” by service in the harems of Barbary potentates.)
As Baepler notes in his introduction, Christian slaves of European ancestry were hardly an uncommon phenomenon in the Barbary States. The Barbary pirates were excellent seafarers and, from the Coasts of North Africa, sailed as far north as Iceland (where they went ashore and captured 800 slaves during one incident) and as far West as Newfoundland, Canada, where they pillaged more than 40 vessels at one time. By 1620, reports Baepler, there were more than 20,000 white Christian slaves in Algiers alone, and by the 1630s that number tolled more than 30,000 men and 2,000 women. The most famous of all white Christian Europeans to serve as a slave in the Barbary States was probably Miguel de Cervantes, the great Spanish author of the “Don Quixote” epic, who was taken as a slave in the late 1500s.
An Important Source of Revenue
European and (later on) American slaves appeared to have been important source of foreign revenue for the local economies for several centuries. First, European and (later) American governments paid huge sums in “tribute” to the Muslim governments in exchange for “peace treaties” that were supposed to halt the pirate attacks on their trading and naval ships. Those nations who did not pay suffered the consequences. Second, enslaved Europeans and Americans were often redeemed for a handsome ransom. And third, even if the Muslim governments received no “tribute” or ransom, they still benefited from the unpaid labor of their captives.
Baepler quotes a Barbary Coast maxim that illustrates the viewpoints of the pirates and their sponsoring states: “The Christians who would be on good terms with [the Barbary States] must [either] fight well or pay well.”
The first-person narratives reproduced in this book do not support the often-repeated contention that slavery was somehow a more human institution in the Islamic world than it was in the European colonies of the New World.
By and large, the Christian slaves were poorly fed and housed, existing, by one account, on a meager ration of two slices of bread and a small quantity of beans per day. Clothing – and medical care -- was provided by sympathetic free Europeans living in North Africa; slave-owners provided nothing. Spanish Catholic priests even built a large hospital in Algeria to look after ill and dying Christian slaves.
The most popular punishment was the “bastinado” – hundreds of blows on the soles of the feet with a thick wooden truncheon. For more severe offenses, such as attempting to escape or ridiculing the Muslim religion or prophet, slaves were executed in particularly cruel ways: by crucifixion, burning at the stake or impalement on huge iron hooks until death. The narrators of these slave accounts witnessed many acts of brutality toward the Christian slaves, as well as toward the general North African populace ruled over by the elite: the beys, deys and bashaws of the Barbary States.
Baepler quotes from, but does not include, the narrative of one James Riley, an American Barbary captive of the early 1800s who published a book about his experiences upon returning to the United States. The book became an influential “best-seller” in the young nation of the USA and influenced those Americans who worked for abolition of the shameful practice of Black African slavery in the Southern States of the USA. Riley’s book was said to have greatly influenced one young lawyer named Abraham Lincoln, who, as 16th president of the United States, signed the Emancipation Proclamation abolishing slavery in the U.S. in 1863.
As for the Barbary pirate slave trade, it continued sporadically up until the dawn of the 20th Century, and was not abolished until military and economic pressure was applied by the colonial powers of Europe (with, in come cases, assistance from the military might of the USA).
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SStephan/islamic_slavery.htm
3 entries found for ignorance.
ig·no·rance ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-ns)
n.
The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.
have fun explaining yourselves to allah !
-
and the reason you all hate now... well thats just because youre in a shitty position...
keep backing terrorism, keep backing cowardice... you guys really are so smart ! :D
hey atleast i dont think i'm something i'm not.
-
hey Jamal, i think i just got a lil smarter... youre still as ugly as ever !
shit sorry man, dont get mad, i dont mean it ;D
-
yea they started it, i've always said europeans never started slavery, slaves we rounded up by africans themselves
whilst on the topic u know slavery still goes on in rural parts of brazil?
-
^ nope, i'm dumb... but cheers for helpin the cause :)
are they literally slaves ? like owned by someone ? it isnt legal is it ?
-
it's nothing new that the white man gets blamed for everything
and double standards are everywhere
-
Slavery Payback = Wiggerism ;D
-
if the read the last thread you would realize that arab slavery was talked about, and it was in no way as bad as white slavery
-
if the read the last thread you would realize that arab slavery was talked about, and it was in no way as bad as white slavery
slavery is slavery
-
Thanks for that credible source. Let's look at what this website claims it's all about.
About
Faith Freedom International
Islamic terrorism is inspired by Islamic teachings. We can never get rid of Islamic terrorism unless we defeat the ideology behind it and that is Islam itself. Islam induces hate backed by lies. Muhammad was a terrorist by his own admission. All Muslims, to the extent that they follow him, are terrorists. Those Muslims who are not terrorists are ignorant of Islam and are not good Muslims. Fortunately they are the majority. We need to rescue them. If you are a good human being, you are not a Muslim. Read this site and if you can't prove me wrong, which you certainly can't, leave this deceitful cult of hate and terror and join mankind. Don't be part of the Umma. Umma is fascism. It is divisive. It induces the hatred of others. Be part of humanity instead. Your ignorance is not an excuse. Pull your head out of the sand and face the truth, like we did.
Faith Freedom International is a grassroots worldwide movement of ex-Muslims and all those who are concerned about the rise of the Islamic threat. We want to bring humanity together, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind more, but by eliminating the doctrines that divide us. We want to abolish this evil 'Muslim vs. Kafir" dichotomy. Mankind is one family. Don't let narcissist men like Hitler and Muhammad sunder us with their big lies. Don't become the victim of the "divide and rule" policy of a psychopath.
Faith Freedom stands for freedom of faith. We are against Hate, not Faith. We revere human rights not human beliefs. We endeavor to be factually correct, not politically correct.
Do your part! Let this message out. Let us eradicate Islam and bring mankind together - the way God intended. Islam is the cancer of humanity. We can get rid of it. There is nothing we humans can't do. Mountains move aside to make way for those who are determined.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
Go through the articles on that front page... I can find articles on the website that claim the holocaust never happened... does that mean it's true? No.... and no gump, you didn't learn anything...
-
if the read the last thread you would realize that arab slavery was talked about, and it was in no way as bad as white slavery
slavery is slavery
That's what I've been saying. Me and h cottie had a little covnvo about this http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=106219.msg1096504#msg1096504.
It's not a defence in saying you race's slavery was worse then ours. ALL slavery is wrong regardless of whose was worse.
-
Of course there was slavery... but the article you posted isn't historically accurate. I'll teach you something else, son... anything you read, you have to look at who the author is, what his or her goal is.. as in, what is she trying to emphasize, then analyze how he or she could then have a certain bias towards the subject, which would explain the wording, what debatable info is included, and what's ommitted. In this case, the statement by that website clearly explains itself, so the information they CHOSE to gather and compile would only serve for that "mission". And if you're ignorant enough to believe that "All Muslims, to the extent that they follow him, are terrorists", then you're ignorant enough to buy the bullshit put forward by them.
Anyways, of course there was Arab slavery of Africans... there still is a fucked up situation in Darfur... but who said there wasn't? Nobody is going around saying "We're perfect".... all I do is point out the atrocities of the west when people start saying "we bring freedom to the world" or whatever other bullshit these faggots come up with
-
Anyways, of course there was Arab slavery of Africans... there still is a fucked up situation in Darfur... but who said there wasn't? Nobody is going around saying "We're perfect".... all I do is point out the atrocities of the west when people start saying "we bring freedom to the world" or whatever other bullshit these faggots come up with
Have you read any posts by Infinte?
-
Firstly you are right, if anyone would bother to read they would realise that most "terrorism" is a fabrication or is engineered by the intelligence services of the west. However I can understand the reason for this post I am so sick of being told that whites did this whites did that. It's a fact that white people were also slaves in North Africa, its just taboo to talk about such things because it doesn't fit into the agenda of a "multicultural society" the best way to impose this is to make white people feel terribly guilty for past wrongs which other white people have committed whilst making these people completely oblivious to the fact that north africans also had white people as slaves. The whole thing is sickening that we as a society have to be apologetic for what has gone on in the past. However education has been designed to keep these very basic facts from us. also like has been mentioned before black slavery would not have been possible without the black masters, again though this is never mentioned. Creating this notion that black people were somehow whiter than white. Before any half brain suddenly jumps on my comments and says oh so you dont have a problem with slavery then, yes of course I do I am just poitning out they are manipulating people here to swallow lies and half truths.
Thats on both issues...."terrorism and slavery
-
if the read the last thread you would realize that arab slavery was talked about, and it was in no way as bad as white slavery
haha, yeah are u sure you know what youre talking about?
-
if the read the last thread you would realize that arab slavery was talked about, and it was in no way as bad as white slavery
haha, yeah are u sure you know what youre talking about?
are u sure u know what youre talkin about? His statement was accurate. Arab slavery was not as bad. prove that statement wrong dunce, u cant.
-
ok then, if you dont like that source... then check encyclopedia britannica, or wikipedia... whatever... the facts still remain.
-
if the read the last thread you would realize that arab slavery was talked about, and it was in no way as bad as white slavery
for starters, i'm not comparing whites to arabs in this thread... all i'm saying is you cant just blame whites for everything.
for seconds millions of black slaves were killed from 700AD - 1900AD including women and children being raped, and tested in market places for their sexual worth. barbarians.
source: check any encyclopedia.
-
Thanks for that credible source. Let's look at what this website claims it's all about.
About
Faith Freedom International
Let us eradicate Islam and bring mankind together - the way God intended. Islam is the cancer of humanity. We can get rid of it. There is nothing we humans can't do
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
lol at "and bring mankind together"
-
^ ok that page was using the historical facts to help throw down their views... check the net, any credible source shows the same thing...
-
if the read the last thread you would realize that arab slavery was talked about, and it was in no way as bad as white slavery
haha, yeah are u sure you know what youre talking about?
are u sure u know what youre talkin about? His statement was accurate. Arab slavery was not as bad. prove that statement wrong dunce, u cant.
Why? Was it because arabs in general are naturally less cruel?
-
Thanks for that credible source. Let's look at what this website claims it's all about.
About
Faith Freedom International
Islamic terrorism is inspired by Islamic teachings. We can never get rid of Islamic terrorism unless we defeat the ideology behind it and that is Islam itself. Islam induces hate backed by lies. Muhammad was a terrorist by his own admission. All Muslims, to the extent that they follow him, are terrorists. Those Muslims who are not terrorists are ignorant of Islam and are not good Muslims. Fortunately they are the majority. We need to rescue them. If you are a good human being, you are not a Muslim. Read this site and if you can't prove me wrong, which you certainly can't, leave this deceitful cult of hate and terror and join mankind. Don't be part of the Umma. Umma is fascism. It is divisive. It induces the hatred of others. Be part of humanity instead. Your ignorance is not an excuse. Pull your head out of the sand and face the truth, like we did.
Faith Freedom International is a grassroots worldwide movement of ex-Muslims and all those who are concerned about the rise of the Islamic threat. We want to bring humanity together, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind more, but by eliminating the doctrines that divide us. We want to abolish this evil 'Muslim vs. Kafir" dichotomy. Mankind is one family. Don't let narcissist men like Hitler and Muhammad sunder us with their big lies. Don't become the victim of the "divide and rule" policy of a psychopath.
Faith Freedom stands for freedom of faith. We are against Hate, not Faith. We revere human rights not human beliefs. We endeavor to be factually correct, not politically correct.
Do your part! Let this message out. Let us eradicate Islam and bring mankind together - the way God intended. Islam is the cancer of humanity. We can get rid of it. There is nothing we humans can't do. Mountains move aside to make way for those who are determined.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
Go through the articles on that front page... I can find articles on the website that claim the holocaust never happened... does that mean it's true? No.... and no gump, you didn't learn anything...
Well, look on the bright side...at least they acknowledge not all Muslims are evil or terrorists or whatnot. Unlike Real Jingoistic American, who calls them all "Islamic animals" and "savages."
-
hey Janal, where on that page does it say the holocaust didnt happen ?
-
However I can understand the reason for this post I am so sick of being told that whites did this whites did that. It's a fact that white people were also slaves in North Africa, its just taboo to talk about such things because it doesn't fit into the agenda of a "multicultural society" the best way to impose this is to make white people feel terribly guilty for past wrongs which other white people have committed whilst making these people completely oblivious to the fact that north africans also had white people as slaves. The whole thing is sickening that we as a society have to be apologetic for what has gone on in the past.
look, you're so western with your thinking. you can nitpick about what arabs may have done or africans may have done, but the bottom line is simple. when all the dust settled, when all was said and done; western europe and america continue to reap the benefits of the oppression of the past, slavery and imperialism.
the entire geo-economic and political structure was established on those atrocities; and this is why people still care. people have this attitude that "i'm not racist, i don't own slaves; let's call it even". it's not even as long as groups of people, and nations in general continue to reap the benefits of imbalances created through these atrocities.
it's like israel. they steal lands and then complain that the palestinians won't agree to peace. the palestinians were not happy with the establishment of the jewish state, remain outraged at the occupied territories in jerusalem & the west bank and gaza strips...and refuse to agree to peace on these terms.
it's like those people in zimbabwe being evicted from their homes, if your grandparents stole the land, you do not have legitimate claim to the land. it doesn't matter how long you've been living there. a crime was once committed.
from an academic point of view, it's hard to identify a nation of any size that has never commited atrocities at some point in their existence. however, that is a historical issue; this is an issue of the scale of the effect.
this is the root of the issue. if arab slavery were comparable or worse than what the west did; that is nothing more than a historical footnote. noone cares. noone is feeling the affects of arab slavery. the world is currently shaped by the affects of slavery, imperialism and oppression today. and this is why people still care. you are trying to compare things, when the magnitude of the affect of these things isn't remotely comparable.
-
That is just absolute nonsense, i want to pick up on your last point, you have clearly ignored the history there the boares settled in Zimbabwe as they were trying to do so they fought the zulus who came from places like mozambique, so stolen? how can you say the white people stole the land the indigenous population of zimbabwe is so damn marginalised they have to beg for scraps from the government. Thus most black people have no more right to the land than the whites there. Racism is racism, and I am sickened that its somehow ok to terrorise white people because of what their ancestors might have done. As for the slavery argument I never denied that the west prospered from millions of black slaves, however again its not black and white, africans had been slave trading before the europeans went into africa, the difference is on the scale organisation and resources. It's also extremely sick that black people should feel so wronged by the west, when in several african countries one of the biggest practiced religions is voodoo. Now the practice of human sacrifices wasn't even banned in voodoo until 1990. So for all of these years black people have been screaming hatred towards the way the west has wronged them and yet don't give a damn when blacks are being murdered in their tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands even by a religion, its bewildering.
Finally don't you see most white people certainly in this area I live are struggling to get by after all the bills are paid, certainly my family are and yet there is still this bullshit propaganda about whitey having this and whitey having that, at the end of the day and as you yourself have acknowledged its the government who profit and prosper. Yet still I have to feel apologetic and guilty about the actions of white people, what the hell? this countries people were serfs until the magna carta was introduced which gave us the bare minimum of human rights, so its entirely feasible that my ancestors had no part in slavery. They were the ones who were slaves, in this country.
-
That is just absolute nonsense, i want to pick up on your last point, you have clearly ignored the history there the boares settled in Zimbabwe as they were trying to do so they fought the zulus who came from places like mozambique, so stolen? how can you say the white people stole the land
they were colonizers, they took the land by force. their presence was immediately opposed but they had superior weapons.
the indigenous population of zimbabwe is so damn marginalised they have to beg for scraps from the government. Thus most black people have no more right to the land than the whites there.
the whites have no right to the land. they were forced to relinquish political power but retained control over the land. the region the indigenous people are so poor is that over 70% of the farmlands are owned by less than 1% of the population. the former white settlers. how can 1% own 70% of the arable land?
Racism is racism, and I am sickened that its somehow ok to terrorise white people because of what their ancestors might have done.
so if you steal land and never face any redressing; your family can now keep the land? the sins of the ancestors are egregious. the majority of the agricultural wealth of the nation is lost to a minute portion of the population that invaded the lands and seized control by force. they don't have a right to those lands.
As for the slavery argument I never denied that the west prospered from millions of black slaves, however again its not black and white
the fall out is black and white.
It's also extremely sick that black people should feel so wronged by the west
they were wronged by the west. why should black people ignore those wrongs.
when in several african countries one of the biggest practiced religions is voodoo. Now the practice of human sacrifices wasn't even banned in voodoo until 1990.
what sort of device is this? you are completely trying to distract attention from the root issue. black people were greatly wronged by slavery and colonialism.
now, for your side issue: i am unfamiliar with voodoo. i'm not prepared to condemn it. i'm not comfortable with the idea of human sacrifice, i'd like to look into the practice; understand the theory and motivation. understand how effective the practices are. i'll do some research, i'll get back to you on this. my predisposition is against human sacrifice, but i'm not familiar with voodoo or the role human sacrifice within it.
for the record, are you saying that voodoo is ineffective?
So for all of these years black people have been screaming hatred towards the way the west has wronged them and yet don't give a damn when blacks are being murdered in their tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands even by a religion, its bewildering.
i'm sure most blacks would be outraged by both. it's not either or. personally, i'm going to look into voodoo before i express any outrage.
Finally don't you see most white people certainly in this area I live are struggling to get by after all the bills are paid, certainly my family are and yet there is still this bullshit propaganda about whitey having this and whitey having that
western nations are rich, and too many of them don't take proper care of their citizens. the u.s. is one of the worst. we can talk about the psychology of people that support governments that do nothing for them. we can also talk about the effects these people and governments in their quest for wealth, power and world domination have had on people's across the globe.
let's keep in mind that struggling to pay your mortgage or rent or car payment is nowhere near as bad as struggling to feed your family. you can't compare struggling in the west to the struggles of the poor in third world country. struggling and sufferage that has been greatly exacerbated by the influence of the west and western ideas of development and societal structure.
at the end of the day and as you yourself have acknowledged its the government who profit and prosper.
many of the people also prosper. at a minimum the wealthy prosper. it's only the poor that aren't prospering. the standard of living in the west is far greater than these third world countries.
Yet still I have to feel apologetic and guilty about the actions of white people, what the hell?
noone is telling you to feel guilty. you can accept that you prosper from oppression and slavery, as do i; and share in the condemnation of the past. or you can deny it and look for excuses as you seem to be doing. noone is blaming you directly, but if you deny the crimes and make up excuses you become part of the problem.
this countries people were serfs until the magna carta was introduced which gave us the bare minimum of human rights, so its entirely feasible that my ancestors had no part in slavery. They were the ones who were slaves, in this country.
the subtle differences are that while you may be disadvantaged because of crimes of the past, you largely have opportunities to acheive great heights and overcome.
blacks in america while at a disadvantaged position, also have opportunities to succeed and many do. not an even playing field even today, but opportunities abound nonetheless.
in zimbabwe where 1% controls 70% of the arable lands in an agricultural based economy, there is little room to right wrongs and few opportunities.
-
1)Yes indeed they were colonisers so were the zulus, you will find that zimbabwe is divided along these tribal lines
2) Secondly your point about the control of the land is completely inaccurate since those are old figures, the whites have been ethnically cleansed from zimbabwe. Now instead the land has been seized and given to thugs and government officials.
3) As I keep mentioning if you insist that white people have no right to that land then nor do most black most people there after all both parties invaded zimbabwe around the same time. They seized control by force Mugabe is a dictator, the army thinks nothing about massacring thousands of people like they did in the 80's.
4) I wasn't mentioning voodoo as a deliberate side issue it just came into my thoughts as i was thinking about the idea of being wronged. I am just addressing a much broader point and it is one which came to my mind as I listened to a Nas song, painting Africa as this place of Utopia which those "white devils" destroyed is just such a twisted and distorted notion. However human sacrificing is true and feel free to research it. It was a female witchdoctor who was talking candidly about voodooism and she was the one who said human sacrifice wasnt banned until 1990. I don't know what you mean when you ask do i think its ineffective, i think its bizarre and sick.
5) You know what? parts of Ireland are so poverty stricken that its literally difficult to put any food on the table. Secondly on that same issue England is a place of contradiction the wealth is centred in certain areas. However any sweeping generalisation is completely wrong. I have budgeted before for renting a place lets say a place called Manchester if the salary was at a lowish level. I would be in permanent debt every month. It hardly fits snugly into this idea of wealth.
6) Yes I agree with you some people have prospered from the actions, the rich only get richer. It's about keeping people in their place, the idea of a hierarchy of power and influence which only the minority can occupy.
7) I have never denied the past crimes and if you had read my posts properly you would see I had emphasised that point to. Today we have white slavery rings, black slavery rings. Slavery is disgusting, so don't start with your "part of the problem" rhetoric what am I saying as you know is that the issue should be completely honest. I reiterate most white people would think you were lying if they were told that white people have been slaved in north africa. Personally I am outraged by this systematic and unwavering process to withhold these facts from people.
Finally in reply to your last point, the government officials now control that land, Zimbabwe has been crippled as a result of what they have done by seizing the land because of the lack of crops growing and going back to what you said about being part of the problem. Well you are part of the problem if you condone the ethnic cleansing and murdering of white families in Zimbabwe. I would sure hope that is not what you are doing but in the language you are using that is what could be read into your comments.
-
My only issue is when North American blacks equate their problems with that of the impoverished people in the 3rd world. I actually know a guy that told me it's just as hard to be a black man in Canada as it is to be a child sex slave in the Philippines. I was in such amazement when I heard this I had to ask him if he was joking 8 times.
No one is denying that the rich white west is a key factor in the poverty of the 3rd world. But the problem for a lot of whites in the west is that they are taught to feel like they are responsible for it. The truth is the vast majority of them are just pawns that couldn't do anything to stop it, and had very little if anything at all to do with it ever. The basic thought that the difference between a poor white man and a rich white man in the USA 200 years ago was how many slaves they had is absolutely ridiculous, and it's a myth that many, black and white, don't seem to eager to expose. In the United States the poverty rate of blacks may double that of whites, but 80% of blacks are above the poverty line, and there are triple the number of poor whites than poor blacks, and more than double more poor whites than poor blacks and latinos combined. There may not be a level playing field but I know too many that have this idea that the highest blacks are still lower than the lowest whites when it comes to opportunity, and that's another myth. This myth leads to a mentality held be many blacks and whites and it has a negative affect on both. Of course as Nibs mentioned that negative affect is nothing next to the problems of the third world and maybe if people here remembered that there wouldn't be as much white suburban suicide or black ghetto homicide. It's funny because such a small portion of each group is affected by either.
-
i wouldn't compare normal migrations and population expansions to colonisers.
zimbabwe was not an established country with boundaries until the colonisers invaded and enforced boundaries. boundaries that were sustainable from the outside pressures and resistance.
the old figures are illustrative of the problem mugabe was attempting to solve, when they began seizing land. the problem is that the land seizing was not done in a competent manner, and the farms have not remained operational. it was not a well executed plan. it seems as if there was no legitimate plan on how to actually divide the land up effectively and keep the farms running. to date it has been a failed plan. i am not in favor of ethnic cleansing, for the record. i do think the government has the right to seize lands and redistribute them the address past wrongs. this should be done in a competent manner, imho.
the west is rich. the rich get richer, but the poor are also richer than the poor across the world. additionally the poor have access to wealth and often become "the rich". there are people behind the government and corporations, these people are not anonymous; and there is accessibility to the wealth that is generated. having to budget to pay your rent isn't a great burden. you have a place to live, you have food to eat and a job. when your concern is about your personal luxuries and convenience, and not about eating and finding shelter \w decent sanitation...that's a pretty good starting point.
you continue to emphasize this white slavery in north africa. where are the lasting effects? how did that set back europe? this is the difference between the african slave trade and the colonisation of africa, and the slavery that existed in africa and the middle east. people are still focused on the african slave trade because the repercussions persist. slavery of whites in africa is nothing more than a historical footnote. in contrast, african nation face an array of issues today stemming from the results of colonisation and the slave trade
-
No one is denying that the rich white west is a key factor in the poverty of the 3rd world. But the problem for a lot of whites in the west is that they are taught to feel like they are responsible for it. The truth is the vast majority of them are just pawns that couldn't do anything to stop it, and had very little if anything at all to do with it ever.
this is not true as it was regular people that took part in facilitating the slave trade and the managing of slaves as well as supporting the infrastructure of society itself. if a vile crime is being committed in your community, and you support and reap the benefits of this crime indirectly...then you should share in on the blame.
The basic thought that the difference between a poor white man and a rich white man in the USA 200 years ago was how many slaves they had is absolutely ridiculous
the poor white man with nothing by and large looked up to and wanted to be the rich white man with slaves. the supported the principle of slavery even if they didn't own slaves themselves.
In the United States the poverty rate of blacks may double that of whites, but 80% of blacks are above the poverty line, and there are triple the number of poor whites than poor blacks, and more than double more poor whites than poor blacks and latinos combined.
there are ~6 times as many whites as blacks yet using your numbers ony 3 times as many poor whites as poor blacks. that is the problem. if you get the rates the same across races; then blacks will stop complaining. the goal is for race to be an uninteresting demographic category.
There may not be a level playing field
are you suggesting that the playing field is level enough, or do you think there is more to do. i can't speak for these people that think blacks have it worse than sex slaves in the philipians. you are making this "not too bad" argument when the statistics are not only not good enough, but the trends are declining for blacks in terms of metrics like wealth, spending power, property ownership. the recent trends have been towards a broadening gap and not a closing gap.
Of course as Nibs mentioned that negative affect is nothing next to the problems of the third world and maybe if people here remembered that there wouldn't be as much white suburban suicide or black ghetto homicide. It's funny because such a small portion of each group is affected by either.
i agree 100% with that :)
and what's more interesting is that people now have more power and influence and information than at any other previous time, and yet they fall prey to these manipulations and squander their power.
if people in the west, whether it be in europe or in america took a greater interest in the world and their politics, they could influence great change. the reins that the elite hold on power are more flimsy than ever, and the mechanisms used to maintain power more devious...
-
this is not true as it was regular people that took part in facilitating the slave trade and the managing of slaves as well as supporting the infrastructure of society itself. if a vile crime is being committed in your community, and you support and reap the benefits of this crime indirectly...then you should share in on the blame.
Obviously there were regular people that worked for the slave trade the fact, based purely on simple logic, has to stand true that there were more slaves in the slave trade than there were non-slaves or the entire system couldn't work. Like you say below; 6 whites for every black. It was at least that back then. So if one sixth of the whites worked in the slave trade (which is a stretch), then at least five sixths didn't.
the poor white man with nothing by and large looked up to and wanted to be the rich white man with slaves. the supported the principle of slavery even if they didn't own slaves themselves.
Now you insult the intelligence of the common man. They may have gone along with the idea that blacks were inferior, or at least pretended to in order to not cause trouble, but if you think that for a second a family of small farmers that came from a family of small farmers thought they could one day own a plantation when all the good land was taken by the rich, and given the number of slaves the rich had, the man power heavily outweighed small farmer's then you are kidding yourself. They knew what was out of reach. The get rich quick schemes, and rags to riches stories are a new thing in society as far as common examples go. There were no big sports leagues to become a star in, or Hollywood, or some great invention you could make millions with. Today those pipe dreams plague the people into thinking they have shot. Back then these people were still living through the minds that their serf grand parents lived under; "Shut up, do your work, and don't cause trouble". The majority did anyway.
there are ~6 times as many whites as blacks yet using your numbers ony 3 times as many poor whites as poor blacks. that is the problem. if you get the rates the same across races; then blacks will stop complaining. the goal is for race to be an uninteresting demographic category.
I think it's a chicken and the egg scenario mixed in with the head start the whites had. Blacks are more likely to feel victimized and are conditioned to consider themselves in a lower class (by blacks as well as whites) and in turn you get more blacks say "fuck it" than you do whites, but you still have more blacks that don't say that, and yet everyone still focuses on the minority that do.
Let's look at Toronto as a prime example of extremely poor people of various races coming in to the city at around the same time. Indian, Italian, Greek, Arab, and Black (most of Jamaica); the majority of each race came over to get away from some kind of oppression and find a better life. Indians had the problem of slavery during the slave years and massive poverty afterwards, Italians had their problems with the communist regime ruled for a while, Greeks had 400 years of persecution and slavery inflicted upon them by the Muslim Turks, Arabs had their large share of problems with the rich white invasion of the middle east and the new found state of Israel, and the Jamaicans had their years of slavery followed by poverty.
Why is it that a Jamaican in Toronto was more likely to run out on his pregnant girlfriend than any of the other races? Why was a Jamaican more likely to try their hand at drugs?
I've concluded (my answer could change one day), that it's the lack discipline that goes with seeing the white society as your enemy and putting your issues with whites ahead of your responsibility to your own family (usually unknowingly), and the idea that you can't live as well as the whites in terms of self worth and happiness.
When my grandfather was young and he impregnated my grandmother, he refused to marry. Do you know what happened to him? He was thrown in jail and wasn't let out until agreed to marry her. This was the mentality many of the Greeks who came here had. They saw the whites as different, as the enemy, but they were going to strive despite that. The Greeks were put in ghettos in Toronto, given remedial jobs, University was out of the question, and the city wasn't bending over backwards to lend a hand. The white's agenda was simple, they needed more workers to do jobs the whites didn't want to do and they went and recruited them from countries that had an abundance of poor people they could trick into thinking there was riches in North America. My grandfather was a farmer, he was shown all the great prosperous farmland in North America, but he didn't get any of that. He got a security guard job while his children worked as anything from construction to a house maid so the whites could have buildings to get rich in and clean toilets to shit in.
That's the mentality I grew up with. I was taught to see the whites this way. My father lived in Canada under the realization that if a World War were to break out (this was during the Cold War/WW3 scares) and Greece were to pick the other side, we'd be up the creek with out a paddle faster than you can say Japanese concentration camp. But I had discipline like the rest of the Greeks in the culture here. We were taught to see the whites as oppressors but we were never allowed to go against our values oir give these whites a reason to think we are any less than them. That is a mentality that does not exist in the black community here and probably not in any major US city. You ask a Greek what hardships feel upon Greece and he'll tell you all about what the Greeks "overcame", you ask a Jamaican and they'll tell you all about what the Jamaicans "suffered". It's this mentality that is taught, and that needs to stop being taught that leads to Greeks not being more below the poverty line than the whites. And you can ask any kid from any other race or culture that isn't as below the poverty line as the blacks are and they'll at least know someone who has a story like mine.
are you suggesting that the playing field is level enough, or do you think there is more to do. i can't speak for these people that think blacks have it worse than sex slaves in the philipians. you are making this "not too bad" argument when the statistics are not only not good enough, but the trends are declining for blacks in terms of metrics like wealth, spending power, property ownership. the recent trends have been towards a broadening gap and not a closing gap.
My above response explains my thoughts on this.
i agree 100% with that :)
and what's more interesting is that people now have more power and influence and information than at any other previous time, and yet they fall prey to these manipulations and squander their power.
if people in the west, whether it be in europe or in america took a greater interest in the world and their politics, they could influence great change. the reins that the elite hold on power are more flimsy than ever, and the mechanisms used to maintain power more devious...
I don't think there was a time in history where the have-nots weren't too many and the people in power probably like it that way. I don't think it can be changed in this World. I guess that's why I have faith in a better one.
-
So if one sixth of the whites worked in the slave trade (which is a stretch), then at least five sixths didn't.
they all supported it. slave owners were the community leaders. they didn't pass laws to abolish slavery or oppose slavery.
Now you insult the intelligence of the common man. They may have gone along with the idea that blacks were inferior, or at least pretended to in order to not cause trouble, but if you think that for a second a family of small farmers that came from a family of small farmers thought they could one day own a plantation when all the good land was taken by the rich, and given the number of slaves the rich had, the man power heavily outweighed small farmer's then you are kidding yourself. They knew what was out of reach.
not all slaves were on plantations. anyone that could afford to house and feed a slave could use the free labor; on small farms and as servants as well.
additionally, you have private writings of abraham lincoln where he states that blacks are inferior. if you look at the scholarly writings at the time: there were "scientific studies and books published documenting the intellectual inferiority of blacks; and also the predisposition of blacks to violence and crime. the notion that blacks were inferior (ot whites) was widespread and persisted well beyond the times of slavery.
The get rich quick schemes, and rags to riches stories are a new thing in society as far as common examples go. There were no big sports leagues to become a star in, or Hollywood, or some great invention you could make millions with. Today those pipe dreams plague the people into thinking they have shot.
lol. colonization itself was seen and sold as a get rich scheme by many. "get a fresh start in the new world". the rich often sponsored the poor to go off and colonize; with the expectation of great rewards for both. much of settling west (manifest destiny) push was motivated by both searching for gold and precious minerals(later oil); as well as establishing farms. at a minimum, if not getting rich quickly people wanted to get ahead quickly; and free labor was beneficial to this in many way. there are numerous tales of early colonies failing because people were growing cash crops instead of food. people have always wanted to "get rich quick" in america.
I think it's a chicken and the egg scenario mixed in with the head start the whites had.
whites had more than just a head start they oppresses and held blacks back. laws against blacks voting, owning property at various times in addition to slavery. calling that a "head start" undermines the extent of the treachery.
Blacks are more likely to feel victimized and are conditioned to consider themselves in a lower class (by blacks as well as whites) and in turn you get more blacks say "fuck it" than you do whites, but you still have more blacks that don't say that, and yet everyone still focuses on the minority that do.
blacks have been victimized and many blacks find themselves in hopeless situations to start.
the larger problem is the gross majority of wealth is controlled by whites in this country. people like to say that race doesn't matter, but it does in the minds of many; and blacks are very conscious of race especially. many blacks find themselves in a situation where they must conform to white cultural ideals in order to get a good job and get ahead. in many ways this is seen as having to deny their true selves in a professional context, and there is doubt and debate as to whether or not they get a fair shake compared to their white counterparts. in contrast whites don't have to work for blacks, conform to the black mans world, and don't face those same cultural ramifications.
individually, the worse the situation for a black community (the greater the poverty, the greater the crime) the worse their relationship with the white world is going to be (typically through the police and politicians), and thus opportunities seem even more hopeless. you look at a place like watts. the per capita income in watts is around $7k/yr. the per capita income of mexico is $10k/yr. you'd almost think that watts natives should sneak into mexico to get ahead.
poor whites don't face the same cultural ramifications as poor blacks. this is largely a result in the imbalanced distribution of wealth and power racially.
Why is it that a Jamaican in Toronto was more likely to run out on his pregnant girlfriend than any of the other races? Why was a Jamaican more likely to try their hand at drugs?
I've concluded (my answer could change one day), that it's the lack discipline that goes with seeing the white society as your enemy and putting your issues with whites ahead of your responsibility to your own family (usually unknowingly), and the idea that you can't live as well as the whites in terms of self worth and happiness.
jamaica was a british colony and black jamaicans are the decendents of slaves. if you have questions about the mental disposition and the hostility towards whites, it's going to be the same as blacks in north america.
When my grandfather was young and he impregnated my grandmother, he refused to marry. Do you know what happened to him? He was thrown in jail and wasn't let out until agreed to marry her. This was the mentality many of the Greeks who came here had. They saw the whites as different, as the enemy, but they were going to strive despite that.
That's the mentality I grew up with.
within the black community there is an ongoing debate on why the values and sense of communal responsibility have been lost. i agree with you, as many others do, that this is a problem, i disagree with you in that i don't believe that blaming the white man is the source of this problem.
if you remember the threads eihtball had about whites embracing negative stereotypes in hip hop to the detriment of the black community; that was one example into the types of ideas people are looking at regarding what is wrong.
We were taught to see the whites as oppressors but we were never allowed to go against our values oir give these whites a reason to think we are any less than them. That is a mentality that does not exist in the black community here and probably not in any major US city. You ask a Greek what hardships feel upon Greece and he'll tell you all about what the Greeks "overcame", you ask a Jamaican and they'll tell you all about what the Jamaicans "suffered".
in many ways this is true. the black community in jamaica or the u.s. does not represent one nation of people like the greeks with one common identity. that common identity and communal sense was not preserved during slavery, as the slaves were from different tribes and regions of africa and intentionally mixed up. you mention "greeks". in europe "greeks" and "italians", "germans" and "french" are all different, with different histories, cultures and senses of community. it'd be like calling all of them a "european". is there a single consistent "european" identity? because blacks couldn't identify a country in africa where they were from, let along individual tribes. that communal identity was destroyed. when you talk about that sense of cultural pride that your family had, this is the same sense of cultural identity and pride that blacks in america and jamaica are trying to redevelop, after their true identity was destroyed. the only thing that holds the black community together is skin color. and that isn't enough to hold europe or the middle east together.
you are talking about a people whose individual cultural identities were disparate, destroyed and are trying to establish a new identity in a hostile environment. it's not an apples to apples comparison, but i 100% appreciate your perspective in terms of cultural identity and pride.
I don't think there was a time in history where the have-nots weren't too many and the people in power probably like it that way. I don't think it can be changed in this World. I guess that's why I have faith in a better one.
i was pointing at the amusing fact that within the sham of a democracy that exists in america, people actually do wield great amounts of power in choosing their leadership and direction for the nation. with the rise of the internet, people have access to alternative forms of media to disperse ideas without corporate approval. the power that the people have in this world is great, but they have failed to recognize it or act wisely with it.
-
Just a couple of things.
1.) If the ratio of white to black is 6 to 1 and plantation owners had many slaves then it is mathematically impossible for many common folks to have any slaves. I'm not saying no one did, but there is no way the majority could have slaves.
2.) That bullshit myth that people were leaving their countries because they wanted to get rich is just that; a myth. My family was more or less forced out of Greece since the area they lived had been war torn and the same goes a lot of Europeans. The well to do came over to do better, the poor came over because they were forced, one way or another, and the well to do need forces to make sure the slaves couldn't revolt.
3) I never denied that people were taught blacks were inferior and believed it. I was just giving them some credit when it came to one day becoming rich and owning slaves. Most of the whites hadn't seen blacks or knew anything of them, but they had seen poverty and oppression from the rich and knew that you don't just go from poor to rich.
4) Every Jamaican I know has a strong bond to other Jamaicans and the country and culture of Jamaica. The thugs fight each other more than anyone else but the Italian Mobsters fought each other more that anyone else too.
5) Why is it that the Greeks can be ruled and oppressed by Muslims for 400 years, be forced to learn Islam and the way or Turkish life and still secretly hold on to Christianity and Greek culture, but the black slaves couldn't hold on to their culture. Now if the majority of slaves in the US and the Caribbean were slaves in Africa to begin with then I'd understand, but if they were proud upstanding African "kings" and "queens" as people like Nas seem to affirm then I don't get why they'd lose their pride.
-
Oh you know the song I am talking about also then, Nas is a brilliant lyricist but he is also a delusional fool, this utopia never existed and as for nibs man I respect your knowledge but you are white washing the issue of land grabs no pun intended. Firstly the high courts of Zimbabwe ruled the seizures illegal and were subsequently forced to flee for their leaves after being told they would be killed if they didnt leave immediately. However what I would like to comment on is your idea that it was badly planned and executed, no it was not badly planned and executed it was deliberately done. The land has been given to the closest associates of his and policemen secret service of his to name but a few.
He couldnt keep the white farmers in operational control because he pulled the same tired race card the white person is the devil the white person is evil, the white person is holding you down in order to desperately try and keep himself in power. He did this of course after failing in his bid to have the hourt court pass a law which would allow him to rule the country for the rest of his life without leadership challenge. Zimbabweans are being held down by their own brutal government more than any whites. Yet despite this farrakhan was the man praising this strong leader. It's like I have said before he cries foul on racism when it affects black people but when its all about despicable racist hatred towards white people then thats ok.
As for the point about slavery in general, whats done is done it happened and yet some black peoplem still feel like whitey owes them. I also think its nonsense when you said you can put food on the table house over your head etc, how can someone be fortunate in that respect when the only way they can do that is live in financial impisonment, in other words always being in debt. Yet instead of realising that most whites in this country are in the same damn position as them they want to continue with this mentality of being held down.
-
1.) If the ratio of white to black is 6 to 1 and plantation owners had many slaves then it is mathematically impossible for many common folks to have any slaves. I'm not saying no one did, but there is no way the majority could have slaves.
i am saying that the majority supported the policy of slave holders. your logic illustrates my point. if the actual slave holders were in the minority, and it's democratic rule, they couldn't have had the votes or legislative power to support slavery unless the average non-slave holder also agreed.
2.) That bullshit myth that people were leaving their countries because they wanted to get rich is just that; a myth. My family was more or less forced out of Greece since the area they lived had been war torn and the same goes a lot of Europeans. The well to do came over to do better, the poor came over because they were forced, one way or another, and the well to do need forces to make sure the slaves couldn't revolt.
we are only arguing over the scale of the improvement. america was offerring a fresh opportunity, free lands for many settlers in the west, and an end various oppressions. america provided the notion of equality and a level playing field. and you can look at the gold rush out west, and the cash crop farmers in the south to see that many were looking for wealth as well.
4) Every Jamaican I know has a strong bond to other Jamaicans and the country and culture of Jamaica. The thugs fight each other more than anyone else but the Italian Mobsters fought each other more that anyone else too.
jamaica and other carribean states do have a significantly stronger sense of self identity than the blacks in america. by sense of community i was referring to the sense of responsibility towards one another and to that community; an idea which has largely been lost in favor of pursuit of individualistic goals.
5) Why is it that the Greeks can be ruled and oppressed by Muslims for 400 years, be forced to learn Islam and the way or Turkish life and still secretly hold on to Christianity and Greek culture, but the black slaves couldn't hold on to their culture.
blacks from different tribes (now countries) were mixed up. so they black slaves that were together did not share a common language or culture with one another. this was done intentionally. all they had in common was that they were black. if you intermixed greeks, italians, germans and irish and split up their families...what common culture do those people share; and thus what culture can they hold on to?
-
Firstly the high courts of Zimbabwe ruled the seizures illegal and were subsequently forced to flee for their leaves after being told they would be killed if they didnt leave immediately.
the land grabbing was done in two phases, the first phase required court approval before seizure, the second phase required court approval after seizure. what was ruled unconstitutional was the second phase; notion that they could seize the land and then verify after the fact that the land had been legally seized.
However what I would like to comment on is your idea that it was badly planned and executed, no it was not badly planned and executed it was deliberately done. The land has been given to the closest associates of his and policemen secret service of his to name but a few.
i don't believe that mugabe is a competent leader. deliberate != well planned. the farm lands are now sitting there inoperational; this is poor execution. mugabe's government is not efficient, he has not demonstrated competency.
He couldnt keep the white farmers in operational control
i'm not saying he had to keep the white farmers in operational control.
i'm saying if you seize the farms, you have to have someone capable of running a farm to take control. he apparently had noone capable of running the farms.
Zimbabweans are being held down by their own brutal government more than any whites. Yet despite this farrakhan was the man praising this strong leader.
alot of people supported mugabe's efforts before they had become obvious failures.
the evolution of dictatorships tends to be that with success, prosperity and stability; they are able to become more efficient, less corrupt, more open, and less oppressive. because of mugabe's failures this has not happened in zimbabwe.
As for the point about slavery in general, whats done is done it happened and yet some black people still feel like whitey owes them.
black people can continue to feel that "whitey" has wronged them as they have been wronged. it's pointless to say that "whitey" owes them as they will never be paid, the wrongs will not be corrected and they can only make the best of their situation.
I also think its nonsense when you said you can put food on the table house over your head etc, how can someone be fortunate in that respect when the only way they can do that is live in financial impisonment, in other words always being in debt.
nonsense?
food, shelter, free from disease...that is a very good starting point. that's much better than homeless, hungry, sick and diseased.
i think it's a problem when governments are willing to pay for wars but not to help their people more. we don't disagree that the west is rich, your quarrel is with the distribution of that wealth.
Yet instead of realising that most whites in this country are in the same damn position as them they want to continue with this mentality of being held down.
i agree with you that many blacks have adopted a self destructive mentality. however, the playing field isn't level. the problem i have is that people aren't taking a realistic approach to their situation.