West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: King Tech Quadafi on January 19, 2007, 02:53:40 PM
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Hrant Dink, a prominent voice in Turkey's shrinking Armenian community, has been killed by a gunman at the entrance to his newspaper's offices in Istanbul on Friday.
Dink, a 53-year-old Turkish journalist of Armenian descent, had been tried many times for publicising the killings of Armenians by Turks at the beginning of the 20th century.
Dink was the editor of the bilingual Turkish-Armenian newspaper Agos and a public figure in Turkey.
He was most recently convicted in October of "insulting Turkishness" and received a six-month suspended sentence. He had received threats from nationalists, who viewed him as a traitor.
Arrests
Muammer Guler, the governor of Istanbul, was quoted by the Anatolia news agency as saying that three people have been taken into custody in connection with the Dink's murder.
In previous interviews with the press, Dink had cried as he talked about some of his fellow countrymen's hatred for him, saying he could not stay in a country where he was unwanted.
Turkey's private NTV television earlier said police were searching for the suspected murderer, believed to be a teenager wearing a white hat and a denim jacket.
Dink's body could be seen covered with a white sheet in front of the newspaper's entrance on Friday.
NTV said four empty shell casings were found on the ground and that he was killed by two bullets to the head.
Strong condemnation
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's prime minister, said the killing was an attack against Turkey's unity.
"I stress that the attack on Dink is an attack on us all - on our unity, our integrity, our peace and stability," Erdogan told reporters at a hastily called news conference.
"This is an attack against freedom of thought and our democratic way of life."
Thousands of Turks took to the streets to protest against the murder.
Some 2,000 people gathered at Taksim Square, the main business and entertainment centre of Istanbul, as hundreds of riot police looked on.
"We are all Armenians, We are all Hrant Dink," chanted the protesters, many carrying red carnations and pictures of Dink with the inscription "My dear brother" in Turkish, Armenian and English.
One demonstrator waved Turkish and Armenian flags.
The protesters were marching to the offices of Dink's newspaper in the Sisli district, about three kilometers away, where hundreds of others have kept a vigil since his murder.
In Ankara, about 700 people - trade unionists and human rights activists - held a 30-minute sit-in in central Kizilay square, the Anatolia news agency reported.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BDCEC5AA-A555-413E-8C0D-7D5EEB2D35C5.htm
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Turkish denial of the Genocide won't be tolerated for much longer. Armenians are getting more and more powerful everyday. The time will come. This event just speaks of the vile ways the Turks resort to in order to hide the historical facts
I should probably read the whole article, but right now I will be leaving my pad
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Their attempt to silence that journalist will only backfire on them and make the truth more widespread. It's too bad the man had to die for trying to get the truth out. RIP.
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Cey Cey, where you at boy?
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Muslims always kill anyone who criticizes them.
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Its fucked up that the turks deny that but the armenians are also pushing the issue too much sometimes. I know my armenian friends do not like turks no matter what but today's generation has nothing to do with what happened 80 years ago.
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it was a bad day for Türkiye. Because Hrant Dink is the man stands between Türks and Armanians. I see the world see that murder as "a turk killed an armanian because of racisim because of hate armanians because of other bulshit"...so they genocide armanians in 1915... Woooww... As i said Hrant was a Turkish - Armanian and he was trying to bring peace for each nations, especially for armanians. JML, maybe you don't know Hrant had talked in French Parliamentary against the law which punnish people who says there was no (so called)Armanian Genocide. He always made Armanian Diaspora angry. Hrant Dink was a luck for Türkiye. He lived,speaked, ate and danced half Turkish in his all life. We all liked him. But we Türkiye got some ill and weak brains, also you can find anybody to make him kill somebody for money,it's not about Türkiye. He was a different man and luck for Türkiye and this situation disturbed somebody. So they gave a gun to a 17 year old child with saying he is an armanian who swears Turks. I know some like JML is very happy about with this situation, like Türkiye's enemies. But we are sad. 10,000 Türkish people gathered and carried posters which "We are all Armenians, We are all Hrant Dink," written on. You read and watch armanian genocide lie with one perspective, you don't know how many Türkish people killed by armanain gangs, how many armanian killed by armanian gangs however i know how many armanians killed by türks, died by movement and disease, also Türkish people died by movement and disease because of the epidemic and war on Anatolia... And i'm asking WHY?
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Muslims always kill anyone who criticizes them.
This is a result of Turkish nationalism, not Islam. Turkish nationalists from the era of the Armenian conflict (WW1 time period) fought to destroy the Kalifa of the Ottoman Empire, and after removing Sultan Abdul-Hamid from power they attacked the Armenians in the name of Turkish nationalism, not Islam.
Although in defense of the Turkish nationalists, let me say that the Armenians had been giulty of stabbing the Turks in the backs and were operatives, spy's and inserrectionists for foriegn enemies of Turkey.
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Muslims always kill anyone who criticizes them.
This is a result of Turkish nationalism, not Islam. Turkish nationalists from the era of the Armenian conflict (WW1 time period) fought to destroy the Kalifa of the Ottoman Empire, and after removing Sultan Abdul-Hamid from power they attacked the Armenians in the name of Turkish nationalism, not Islam.
Although in defense of the Turkish nationalists, let me say that the Armenians had been giulty of stabbing the Turks in the backs and were operatives, spy's and inserrectionists for foriegn enemies of Turkey.
it's not about turkish nationalism. Because i'm a nationalist, not a racist, i respect every idea but sometimes i dont have to like ideas, i respect but i dont like. we as real türkish nationalists respect and also like Hrant Dink's ideas. And we didn't attacked Armanians, we attacked Armanian gangs(who killed,raped pregnant womens) in the name of stay alive. I accept some türkish people(not soldiers) killed innocent armanians with think they had to kill before armanians kill him. Also some innocent armanians forced to kill türkish people by armanian gangs. It's about see the history by each nations.
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But we Türkiye got some ill and weak brains
You said it, not me.
I know some like JML is very happy about with this situation, like Türkiye's enemies.
Why would I be happy about this? LOL. I don't give a fuck. I'm not Turkish or Armenian... I'm Muslim though, and I still think what the Turks did to the Armenians is fucked up. Yes, it was genocide.
i know how many armanians killed by türks, died by movement and disease, also Türkish people died by movement and disease because of the epidemic and war on Anatolia... And i'm asking WHY?
LOL @ died by movement. Turks forced them to move... to march across the fucking desert... it doesn't take a genius to figure out that wandering hundreds of miles across the desert is going to have some kind of consequences, especially for older people, children, women, etc. And I don't think you'd even want to get into what the Turks did to them along the way.
I accept some türkish people(not soldiers) killed innocent armanians with think they had to kill before armanians kill him.
You just exposed how full of shit, or dumb, you really are. You accept that Turks killed INNOCENT Armenians because they believed those INNOCENT Armenians would kill them if they hadn't done it first. Are you really using this fucking logic, or lack there of, to justify this? The only thing you were right about, and the only thing you have proven in your posts is:
But we Türkiye got some ill and weak brains
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But we Türkiye got some ill and weak brains
You said it, not me.
I know some like JML is very happy about with this situation, like Türkiye's enemies.
Why would I be happy about this? LOL. I don't give a fuck. I'm not Turkish or Armenian... I'm Muslim though, and I still think what the Turks did to the Armenians is fucked up. Yes, it was genocide.
i know how many armanians killed by türks, died by movement and disease, also Türkish people died by movement and disease because of the epidemic and war on Anatolia... And i'm asking WHY?
LOL @ died by movement. Turks forced them to move... to march across the fucking desert... it doesn't take a genius to figure out that wandering hundreds of miles across the desert is going to have some kind of consequences, especially for older people, children, women, etc. And I don't think you'd even want to get into what the Turks did to them along the way.
I accept some türkish people(not soldiers) killed innocent armanians with think they had to kill before armanians kill him.
You just exposed how full of shit, or dumb, you really are. You accept that Turks killed INNOCENT Armenians because they believed those INNOCENT Armenians would kill them if they hadn't done it first. Are you really using this fucking logic, or lack there of, to justify this? The only thing you were right about, and the only thing you have proven in your posts is:
But we Türkiye got some ill and weak brains
you read it carefully but you miss somewhere... everycountry got ill and weak brains, every nation, every 100 people you can stop in a street... it's not a smart thing to use " but we Türkiye got some ill and weak brains"...you seems a little weak with using it twice... You are like papparazies, you cut my speech and using me what you want to mean by me... I SAID "But we Türkiye got some ill and weak brains, also you can find anybody to make him kill somebody for money,it's not about Türkiye"
that simply shows what you want to do... like what armanian diaspora did to you. You heard something maybe read(is it possible, do you read any books about this problem) you see what you able to see around. i understand this. But if you talk about a subject. You have to read. You have to read more and different type looks for this subject. You can mix each one inside and decide what "YOU" think about.
i believe you are happy. Because you believe this "so called" genocide, you believe that Turks are barbarian(oh my god i said "Turks are barbarian" you can use it JML) and this murder proooves what you believe right? One murder can proove a lie in your life ha.. that's so sad
We forced them to move. Yes you are correct. But we didnt made them to move any country. They moved south in Ottoman Empire. Soldiers escorted them all the way for using the healty way. Yes gangs attacked them across the movement, Like arabic gangs and kurdish gangs in Syria for money or something else valuable. Turks did nothing to them across the way. How can you think that, can we attack them when we fight against France, England, Greece and Russia. We were trying to protect ourselves. I assure you we got no time to think anything except protecting our lives. 486,000 of 500,000 in Syria helped by Ottoman with giving them food,money and place to stay. This was prooved with a document sent by Halep Consalate to Morgenthau( U.S.A's Ottomon consalate). Also government let Red-Cross to escort and help Armanians. And Lansing from U.S. diplomatic service sent a letter to Wilson about 2 million dollar help of missionaries per month. I think it wont be a surprise if i say England blocked the helps like drugs and foods.And another important detail Ottoman government says "do a census where they moved". How a country want a census if they want to genocide.I think you'll never able to see and hear this truths or you won't want to.
And again there is something showing your aim and hate. You are talkin about what i said about innocent armanians killed. Sorry i forgot to add "INNOCENT" in front of turkish pregnant womens, childs and men. I want peace and i want to say something. Something you treat like you never read. Some armanians are forced by armanian gangs to kill innocent turks with saying them Turks will kill you, do it first. So many turks killed by their armanian neighbours. You don't know Turks entrusted their women and children to their Armanian brothers when they go to war. But some armanians killed them. Do you know that? Hey JML are you there? Heeeyyyy
I never forgive who killed my 500,000 people. But i never hate all armanians. It was not all's fault. That's the way i look. That's the way to bring peace.
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you read it carefully but you miss somewhere... everycountry got ill and weak brains, every nation, every 100 people you can stop in a street... it's not a smart thing to use " but we Türkiye got some ill and weak brains"...you seems a little weak with using it twice... You are like papparazies, you cut my speech and using me what you want to mean by me... I SAID "But we Türkiye got some ill and weak brains, also you can find anybody to make him kill somebody for money,it's not about Türkiye"
that simply shows what you want to do... like what armanian diaspora did to you. You heard something maybe read(is it possible, do you read any books about this problem) you see what you able to see around. i understand this. But if you talk about a subject. You have to read. You have to read more and different type looks for this subject. You can mix each one inside and decide what "YOU" think about.
1. You're the who said that, I just quoted you.
2. For your information... yes, I have looked into this subject, have read several books on it, have looked at shit from both sides, and then came to the conclusion that I did. Your government obviously has something to hide when people who speak on the topic are punished for insulting "Turkishness" (Article 301). TURKISH intellectuals who are starting to expose the government's actions are being punished left and right.
i believe you are happy. Because you believe this "so called" genocide, you believe that Turks are barbarian(oh my god i said "Turks are barbarian" you can use it JML) and this murder proooves what you believe right? One murder can proove a lie in your life ha.. that's so sad
Again, I have no reason to be happy or sad about this. I could honestly care less. I never claimed that Turks are barbarian, nor did I state that this murder proves anything of that sort. That also doesn't mean that there wasn't a genocide.
We forced them to move. Yes you are correct. But we didnt made them to move any country. They moved south in Ottoman Empire. Soldiers escorted them all the way for using the healty way. Yes gangs attacked them across the movement, Like arabic gangs and kurdish gangs in Syria for money or something else valuable. Turks did nothing to them across the way. How can you think that, can we attack them when we fight against France, England, Greece and Russia. We were trying to protect ourselves. I assure you we got no time to think anything except protecting our lives. 486,000 of 500,000 in Syria helped by Ottoman with giving them food,money and place to stay. This was prooved with a document sent by Halep Consalate to Morgenthau( U.S.A's Ottomon consalate). Also government let Red-Cross to escort and help Armanians. And Lansing from U.S. diplomatic service sent a letter to Wilson about 2 million dollar help of missionaries per month. I think it wont be a surprise if i say England blocked the helps like drugs and foods.And another important detail Ottoman government says "do a census where they moved". How a country want a census if they want to genocide.I think you'll never able to see and hear this truths or you won't want to.
And again there is something showing your aim and hate. You are talkin about what i said about innocent armanians killed. Sorry i forgot to add "INNOCENT" in front of turkish pregnant womens, childs and men. I want peace and i want to say something. Something you treat like you never read. Some armanians are forced by armanian gangs to kill innocent turks with saying them Turks will kill you, do it first. So many turks killed by their armanian neighbours. You don't know Turks entrusted their women and children to their Armanian brothers when they go to war. But some armanians killed them. Do you know that? Hey JML are you there? Heeeyyyy
I never forgive who killed my 500,000 people. But i never hate all armanians. It was not all's fault. That's the way i look. That's the way to bring peace.
You are not telling me anything I already didn't know. I'm not trying to convince you that there was a genocide, nor will you deceive me into thinking that there wasn't. I never said innocent Turks didn't die... but that also doesn't disprove any argument being put forth. However, since you mentioned raids by Kurds, you do know that Turks played a role in getting the Kurds to do that right? Wait, you even acknowledge that soldiers escorted them... isn't the point of escorting them to keep them safe... so were the soldiers too busy sticking soujouks up eachothers asses while the Kurds were handling their nightly raids to kill Armenians?
I think the way to bring peace is for the government to accept what it has done in the past.
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1. You're the who said that, I just quoted you. (you know you quoted it less, it was very funny to see you when you ruin all the things)
2. For your information... yes, I have looked into this subject, have read several books on it, have looked at shit from both sides, and then came to the conclusion that I did. Your government obviously has something to hide when people who speak on the topic are punished for insulting "Turkishness" (Article 301). TURKISH intellectuals who are starting to expose the government's actions are being punished left and right. ( All european countries has the same Article 301, now you see i'm very rightfull when i say "read and search before speak")
[You are not telling me anything I already didn't know. I'm not trying to convince you that there was a genocide, nor will you deceive me into thinking that there wasn't. I never said innocent Turks didn't die... but that also doesn't disprove any argument being put forth. However, since you mentioned raids by Kurds, you do know that Turks played a role in getting the Kurds to do that right? Wait, you even acknowledge that soldiers escorted them... isn't the point of escorting them to keep them safe... so were the soldiers too busy sticking soujouks up eachothers asses while the Kurds were handling their nightly raids to kill Armenians?
I think the way to bring peace is for the government to accept what it has done in the past.
Yes we said to Kurdish gangs "attack the armanians" maybe we also said them "kill Turks" :) you are getting real funny right now. And you are talkin about we didn't protected them. I think you dont know why we had to make Armanians move south. We were in war with Russia and England. They tried to use them and they did. They hit us behind. They killed our soliders, and our people. We were in the middle of fires. We protected them as much as we "able" to.
And you dont know what is peace. Peace is not to swear your granpa's, History is a science and science men can talk and decide them. We always told to world for found a committee under UNITED NATIONS to search what happened in 1915. Why Armania reject this, whay they run away. They know they are lying, we are ready to discuss it in front of all of the world. We believe our history. But they are still lying about a histoy they dont trust to discuss.
Let me show you what is a massacre or genocide
(http://www.turkishresponse.com/turkce/images/katliamlar/subatan.jpg)
The photograph taken on April 25 th 1918
The Armanian government is till the same since 1915. The terrorists who killed our 41 diplomat are heros there. The government is the same Tashnak gang ( do you know the Tashnaks, the murderers). Don't you know what they did in 1991. They did it again. Like they did in 1915.
http://www.human.az
Look what they did 15 years ago in the modern world of 90's
why dont you talking bout that????
i'm askin again " WHY "
can it be the reason of Hate Turks.
it cant be, it mustn't be
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Having Article 301 and using it to send people to prison for discussing their government's past actions isn't the same thing, buddy. You haven't answered why the Turkish government punishes Turkish intellectuals for this? What are they trying to hide? (Example: Orhan Pamuk)
I know that factions of Armenians were used against the Ottoman government. But over 1 million people?
Forcing an entire ethnic group to march hundreds of miles across the desert isn't really "protecting them". You don't think they knew that a shitload of them would die? Or did their ill and weak brains prevent them from realizing this?
Yes, I know about all the Armenian terrorist activities against Turkish diplomats... but again, that doesn't disprove that there was a genocide. You saying "oh but look what they did to us" doesn't mean shit... I'll agree that these events occurred, but so what?
And please, I know you don't wanna get into an exchange of posting pictures...
(http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/armenian_genocide_2.jpg)
Cey Cey, does Orhan Pamuk also hate Turks? Seriously, you're an idiot if you think people recognize this as genocide simply because they "hate Turks". I don't hate Turks, and I don't think Orhan Pamuk is a self-hating Turk... do you, with your ill and weak brain, believe this?
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I don't like the 301 article however it's necessary but it must be changed a little... And I dont like Orhan Pamuk. Everybody knows nobel is a political thing.
And we dont forced armanians march across a "desert". They marched near "Fırat and "Dicle" rivers. Look what you heard and talking bout, it is wrong. and i think it must be 1.5 million armanian JML. 1 million is less i think. Maybe 2 million. Search more. One million mustn't be enogh to you. The truth :there were 800,000 armanian in Ottoman(the census done by Armanian minister) and like % 70 of them moved.
I never said "oh but look what they did to us"... i said "look what they did"... i never used "but"... do you understand what i'm meaning?
Orhan Pamuk lied about our history, sweared our grandpa's to win the Nobel... I was polite at all, I never sweared you JML but you did at the end. Yes my ill and weak brain believe this, you are right. You get angry when you see all the things you were talkin are wrong ha? Go on.
And how old are you? It seems you are young... Because you dont understand what i'm telling you... You cant talk as an adult
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I don't like the 301 article however it's necessary but it must be changed a little... And I dont like Orhan Pamuk. Everybody knows nobel is a political thing.
And we dont forced armanians march across a "desert". They marched near "Fırat and "Dicle" rivers. Look what you heard and talking bout, it is wrong. and i think it must be 1.5 million armanian JML. 1 million is less i think. Maybe 2 million. Search more. One million mustn't be enogh to you. The truth :there were 800,000 armanian in Ottoman(the census done by Armanian minister) and like % 70 of them moved.
I never said "oh but look what they did to us"... i said "look what they did"... i never used "but"... do you understand what i'm meaning?
Orhan Pamuk lied about our history, sweared our grandpa's to win the Nobel... I was polite at all, I never sweared you JML but you did at the end. Yes my ill and weak brain believe this, you are right. You get angry when you see all the things you were talkin are wrong ha? Go on.
And how old are you? It seems you are young... Because you dont understand what i'm telling you... You cant talk as an adult
I wasn't going to bring it up because I know English isn't your first language or anything... but if you wonder why someone might not understand your retarded ass it's because your English sucks. Anyways, I'm not even gonna waste the effort of typing up a response to your "great argument"... ("I don't like Orhan Pamuk", "we forced them to march but we allowed them to walk alongside rivers", etc LOL)... so I'll just show you this statement by Henry Morgenthau who was the U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1913-1916... after reading this you can go choke on a dick for all I care because you're dumb as fuck.. no joke...
"One day I was discussing these proceedings with a responsible Turkish official, who was describing the tortures inflicted. He made no secret of the fact that the Government had instigated them, and, like all Turks of the official classes, he enthusiastically approved this treatment of the detested race. This official told me that all these details were matters of nightly discussion at the headquarters of the Union and Progress Committee. Each new method of inflicting pain was hailed as a splendid discovery, and the regular attendants were constantly ransacking their brains in the effort to devise some new torment. He told me that they even delved into the records of the Spanish Inquisition and other historic institutions of torture and adopted all the suggestions found there. He did not tell me who carried off the prize in this gruesome competition, but common reputation through Armenia gave a preeminent infamy to Djevdet Bey, the Vali of Van, whose activities in that section I have already described. All through this country Djevdet was generally known as the "horseshoer of Bashkale" for this connoisseur in torture had invented what was perhaps the masterpiece of all that of nailing horseshoes to the feet of his Armenian victims.
Yet these happenings did not constitute what the newspapers of the time commonly referred to as the Armenian atrocities; they were merely the preparatory steps in the destruction of the race. The Young Turks displayed greater ingenuity than their predecessor, Abdul Hamid. The injunction of the deposed Sultan was merely "to kill, kill", whereas the Turkish democracy hit upon an entirely new plan. Instead of massacring outright the Armenian race, they now decided to deport it. In the south and southeastern section of the Ottoman Empire lie the Syrian desert and the Mesopotamian valley. Though part of this area was once the scene of a flourishing civilization, for the last five centuries it has suffered the blight that becomes the lot of any country that is subjected to Turkish rule; and it is now a dreary, desolate waste, without cities and towns or life of any kind, populated only by a few wild and fanatical Bedouin tribes. Only the most industrious labour, expended through many years, could transform this desert into the abiding place of any considerable population. The Central Government now announced its intention of gathering the two million or more Armenians living in the several sections of the empire and transporting them to this desolate and inhospitable region. Had they undertaken such a deportation in good faith it would have represented the height of cruelty and injustice. As a matter of fact, the Turks never had the slightest idea of reestablishing the Armenians in this new country. They knew that the great majority would never reach their destination and that those who did would either die of thirst and starvation, or be murdered by the wild Mohammedan desert tribes. The real purpose of the deportation was robbery and destruction; it really represented a new methods of massacre. When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact.
I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared with the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915. The slaughter of the Albigenses in the early part of the thirteenth century has always been regarded as one of the most pitiful events in history. In these outbursts of fanaticism about 60,000 people were killed. In the massacre of St. Bartholomew about 30,000 human beings lost their lives. The Sicilian Vespers, which has always figured as one of the most fiendish outbursts of this kind, caused the destruction of 8,000. Volumes have been written about the Spanish Inquisition under Torquemada, yet in the eighteen years of his administration only a little more that 8,000 heretics were done to death. Perhaps the one event in history that most resembles the Armenian deportations was the expulsion of the Jews from Spain by Ferdinand and Isabella. According to Prescott 160,000 were uprooted from their homes and scattered broadcast over Africa and Europe. Yet all these previous persecutions seem almost trivial when we compare them with the sufferings of the Armenians, in which at least 600,000 people were destroyed and perhaps as many as 1,000,000. And these earlier massacres when we compare them with the spirit that directed the Armenian atrocities, have one feature that we can almost describe as an excuse: they were the product of religious fanaticism and most of the men and women who instigated them sincerely believed that they were devoutly serving their Maker. Undoubtedly religious fanaticism was an impelling motive with the Turkish and Kurdish rabble who slew Armenians as a service to Allah, but the men who really conceived the crime had no such motive. Practically all of them were atheists, with no more respect for Mohammedanism than for Christianity, and with them the one motive was cold-blooded, calculating state policy."
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I wasn't going to bring it up because I know English isn't your first language or anything... but if you wonder why someone might not understand your retarded ass it's because your English sucks. Anyways, I'm not even gonna waste the effort of typing up a response to your "great argument"... ("I don't like Orhan Pamuk", "we forced them to march but we allowed them to walk alongside rivers", etc LOL)... so I'll just show you this statement by Henry Morgenthau who was the U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1913-1916... after reading this you can go choke on a dick for all I care because you're dumb as fuck.. no joke...
Swear more JML :) it's funny to see you when you lose this discuss. First you came with an explain got no proof behind. You had no idea, no knowledge and you never tried to think a little bit on it.You just did one thing. You searched Morgenthau in google and clicked the first link and you want me to choke on a dick for somebodies( U.S. diplomate) statement which you copy pasted, not for your any idea :) i didn't surprised :D You are succesfull. You just tried to treat like you dont understand what i mean because of my english. But i think a 7 year old child could understand altogh my english sucks. And now the last post of you shows you humilated yourself :) it's over. No joke :) but i'm laughing at you. I never saw a person in this forum who believes an American diplomate. Especially believing to Morgenthau. He and other diplomates like Russian, English ect. always helped Armanian gangs. Always tried to lie about Turks. They tried to show "Turks were killing Armanians" to force Ottoman lose the war. Especially American govenment gave money,weapons to Armanian gangs however they would say the opposite. This statement was a propaganda you don't understand? Morgenthau's advisor was a Tashnak Armanian named "Arşak K. Şmavonian" , also his translater was "Agop S.Andonian" who is another Tashnak. And in "The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau's Story" an American scientist named "Heath Lowry" wrote and prooved there was so much lies in Morgenthau's "Ambassador Morgenthau's Story" book. He was really fake in his whole life. You made me smile first time JML.
And i don't need to swear you... But you can go on :)
And i realized that you are certainly less 14 year old. It's enough to know this bad words.
Also you can explain something you dont know by copy and pasting a speech of George Bush. Just use google, click the first link, and copy paste.
I don't want to copy paste statements. And i think you searched other statements look this subject in other perspective. But you didn't find ha JML. I'm sure you did it. Because you are a person who searchs, who wonders, who think on it, who doesn't believe what he heard first. But i will help you. Because i know you are very objective. I will give you a link and you can copy paste an article about this thread. I'm waiting.( no joke i'm really waiting and i think forum want to see that)
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/articles/index.html
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/index.html .......... This Is The Bonus One... just for culture...
( Just understand me one more time, say one positive thing, we got a word "come near me 1 step, i will come near you 5 steps" ... that's how i look to discuss altough he/she swears me )
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1. You lost the argument when you tried to justify the forced removal by claiming that the people were allowed to walk alongside rivers when marching across the desert.
2. You're the one that needs to provide proof, not me. The world already knows what the Turks did. The Turks weren't trying hard to hide their goals then.. they're only trying to hide the past now.
3. Are you going to deny that Armenians were massacred? What happened to the Armenian population who used to live in what is now Turkey? Did the Turks not admit that they faced an "Armenian Question/Problem"? Did they not force Armenians to march across the desert to Syria? Seriously, if your justification for all this is "well we did allow them to walk near rivers", then I'm sorry, but there's no point in arguing with an idiot like yourself. Yeah, I said it... you're an idiot for making comments like that.
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Here is a first-hand account by a Turkish army officer:
Lieutenant Sayied Ahmed Moukhtar Baas.
In April 1915 I was quartered at Erzeroum. An order came from Constantinople that Armenians inhabiting the frontier towns and village be deported to the interior. It was said then that this was only a precautional measure. I saw at that time large convoys of Armenians go through Erzeroum. They were mostly old men, women and children. Some of the able-bodied men had been recruited in the Turkish Army and many had fled to Russia. The massacres had not begun yet. In May 1915 I was transferred to Trebizond. In July an order came to deport to the interior all the Armenians in the Vilayet of Trebizond. Being a member of the Court Martial I knew that deportations meant massacres.
The Armenian Bishop of Trebizond was ordered to proceed under escort to Erzeroum to answer for charges trumped up against him. But instead of Erzeroum he was taken to Baipurt and from there to Gumush-Khana. The Governor of the latter place was then Colonel Abdul-Kadar Aintabli of the General Staff. He is famous for his atrocities against the Armenians. He had the Bishop murdered at night. The Bishop of Erzeroum was also murdered at Gumush-Khana.
Besides the deportation order referred to above an Imperial "Iradeh" was issued ordering that all deserters when caught, should be shot without trial. The secret order read "Armenians" in lieu of "deserters". The Sultan's "Iradeh" was accompanied by a "fatwa" from Sheikh-ul-Islam stating that the Armenians had shed Moslem blood and their killing was lawful. Then the deportations started. The children were kept back at first. The Government opened up a school for the grown up children and the American Consul of Trebizond instituted an asylum for the infants. When the first batches of Armenians arrived at Gumush-Khana all able-bodied men were sorted out with the excuse that they were going to be given work. The women and children were sent ahead under escort with the assurance by the Turkish authorities that their final destination was Mosul and that no harm will befall them. The men kept behind, were taken out of town in batches of 15 and 20, lined up on the edge of ditches prepared beforehand, shot and thrown into the ditches. Hundreds of men were shot every day in a similar manner. The women and children were attacked on their way by the ("Shotas") the armed bands organised by the Turkish Government who attacked them and seized a certain number. After plundering and committing the most dastardly outrages on the women and children they massacred them in cold blood. These attacks were a daily occurrence until every woman and child had been got rid of. The military escorts had strict orders not to interfere with the "Shotas".
The children that the Government had taken in charge were also deported and massacred.
The infants in the care of the American Consul of Trebizond were taken away with the pretext that they were going to be sent to Sivas where an asylum had been prepared for them. They were taken out to sea in little boats. At some distance out they were stabbed to death, put in sacks and thrown into the sea. A few days later some of their little bodies were washed up on the shore at Trebizond.
In July 1915 I was ordered to accompany a convoy of deported Armenians. It was the last batch from Trebizond. There were in the convoy 120 men, 700 children and about 400 women. From Trebizond I took them to Gumish-Khana. Here the 120 men were taken away, and, as I was informed later, they were all killed. At Gumish-Khana I was ordered to take the women and children to Erzinjian. On the way I saw thousands of bodies of Armenians unburied. Several bands of "Shotas" met us on the way and wanted me to hand over to them women and children. But I persistently refused. I did leave on the way about 300 children with Moslem families who were willing to take care of them and educate them. The "Mutessarrif" of Erzinjian ordered me to proceed with the convoy to Kamack. At the latter place the authorities refused to take charge of the women and children. I fell ill and wanted to go back, but I was told that as long as the Armenians in my charge were alive I would be sent from one place to the other. However I managed to include my batch with the deported Armenians that had come from Erzeroum. In charge of the latter was a colleague of mine Mohamed Effendi from the Gendarmerie. He told me afterwards that after leaving Kamach they came to a valley where the Euphrates ran. A band of Shotas sprang out and stopped the convoy. They ordered the escort to keep away and then shot every one of the Armenians and threw them in the river.
At Trebizond the Moslems were warned that if they sheltered Armenians they would be liable to the death penalty.
Government officials at Trebizond picked up some of the prettiest Armenian women of the best families. After committing the worst outrages on them they had them killed.
Cases of rape of women and girls even publicly are very numerous. They were systematically murdered after the outrage.
The Armenians deported from Erzeroum started with their cattle and whatever possessions they could carry. When they reached Erzinjian they became suspicious seeing that all the Armenians had already been deported. The Vali of Erzeroum allayed their fears and assured them most solemnly that no harm would befall them. He told them that the first convoy should leave for Kamach, the others remaining at Erzeroum until they received word from their friends informing of their safe arrival to destination. And so it happened. Word came that the first batch had arrived safely at Kamach, which was true enough. But the men were kept at Kamach and shot, and the women were massacred by the Shotas after leaving that town.
The Turkish officials in charge of the deportation and extermination of the Armenians were: At Erzeroum, Bihas Eddin Shaker Bey; At Trebizond; Naiil Bey, Tewfik Bey Monastirly, Colonel of Gendarmerie, The Commissioner of Police; At Kamach; The member of Parliament for Erzinjian. The Shotas headquarters were also at Kamach. Their chief was the Kurd Murzabey who boasted that he alone had killed 70,000 Armenians. Afterwards he was thought to be dangerous by the Turks and thrown into prison charged with having hit a gendarme. He was eventually executed in secret.
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1001) First i wanted another article or statement about other perspective...you see that's not about my english. you treat like you don't understand me. you don't want to understand me because i'm telling the truth. I'm objective not you. because i'm telling what armanians did to Turks and what Turks did to armanians. But you never did it. So you are not worth to discuss it. I better discuss it with an Armanian. It's not your job to talk about this subject. Don't swear my grandpa's. Because it's not easy to blame a nation with genocide.
1002) The account of Turkish army officer is fake. It's not a first hand. Because it writes İstanbul as Constantinapol. It's really fake
1003) I'm turkish and know this history by reading everything( everyidea... like blue book, it speaks like you, a propaganda book with full of lies, search it, you can copy paste anything from it) You lost it when you get angry and swear to me. And i think you really know there can't be desert near rivers. Especially near Fırat and Dicle. But you treat like you don't know. Oooo but everybody said to you they marched all across a huuuge desert. and you said yeeeeeeeeesss it must bee. Maybe you really don't know where is Turkey in the world, where is syria, Fırat, Dicle? And you have to proove it if you blame me. You got something real to proove it.
1855) And there were armanians massacred(It was an opposing massacre, and also they started it with killing childs, women). I can say it ceartinly. Now you answer my question. Are you going to deny Tukish people massacred?
9999) my last quesiton: " How old are you? " and where are you from?
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Wait i will make you sure about this "so called" genocide.
I wonder what will you say about Armania's first prime minister's raport. Raport of Hovannes Katchaznouni. This raport introduced to Tashnak Conference in Bucharest of Romania in 1923. This raport hes been found in ARCHIVES OF RUSSIN STATE(OFFICIAL) in Georgia in 1927 with it's russian translation.
Wait i will translate and make you see.