West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: MarkCruz on February 25, 2008, 04:45:21 PM
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(AP) -- The U.S. religious marketplace is extremely volatile, with nearly half of American adults leaving the faith tradition of their upbringing to either switch allegiances or abandon religious affiliation altogether, a new survey finds.
The study released Monday by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life is unusual for it sheer scope, relying on interviews with more than 35,000 adults to document a diverse and dynamic U.S. religious population.
While much of the study confirms earlier findings -- mainline Protestant churches are in decline, non-denominational churches are gaining and the ranks of the unaffiliated are growing -- it also provides a deeper look behind those trends, and of smaller religious groups.
"The American religious economy is like a marketplace -- very dynamic, very competitive," said Luis Lugo, director of the Pew Forum. "Everyone is losing, everyone is gaining. There are net winners and losers, but no one can stand still. Those groups that are losing significant numbers have to recoup them to stay vibrant."
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey estimates the United States is 78 percent Christian and about to lose its status as a majority Protestant nation, at 51 percent and slipping.
More than one-quarter of American adults have left the faith of their childhood for another religion or no religion at all, the survey found. Factoring in moves from one stream or denomination of Protestantism to another, the number rises to 44 percent.
One in four adults ages 18 to 29 claim no affiliation with a religious institution.
"In the past, certain religions had a real holding power, where people from one generation to the next would stay," said Penn State University sociologist Roger Finke, who consulted in the survey planning. "Right now, there is a dropping confidence in organized religion, especially in the traditional religious forms."
Lugo said the 44 percent figure is "a very conservative estimate," and more research is planned to determine the causes.
"It does seem in keeping with the high tolerance among Americans for change," Lugo said. "People move a lot, people change jobs a lot. It's a very fluid society."
The religious demographic benefiting the most from this religious churn is those who claim no religious affiliation. People moving into that category outnumber those moving out of it by a three-to-one margin.
The majority of the unaffiliated -- 12 percent of the overall population -- describe their religion as "nothing in particular," and about half of those say faith is at least somewhat important to them. Atheists or agnostics account for 4 percent of the total population.
The Roman Catholic Church has lost more members than any faith tradition because of affiliation swapping, the survey found. While nearly one in three Americans were raised Catholic, fewer than one in four say they're Catholic today. That means roughly 10 percent of all Americans are ex-Catholics.
The share of the population that identifies as Catholic, however, has remained fairly stable in recent decades thanks to an influx of immigrant Catholics, mostly from Latin America. Nearly half of all Catholics under 30 are Hispanic, the survey found.
On the Protestant side, changes in affiliation are swelling the ranks of nondenominational churches, while Baptist and Methodist traditions are showing net losses.
Many Americans have vague denominational ties at best. People who call themselves "just a Protestant," in fact, account for nearly 10 percent of all Protestants.
Although evangelical churches strive to win new Christian believers from the "unchurched," the survey found most converts to evangelical churches were raised Protestant.
Hindus claimed the highest retention of childhood members, at 84 percent. The group with the worst retention is one of the fastest growing -- Jehovah's Witnesses. Only 37 percent of those raised in the sect known for door-to-door proselytizing said they remain members.
Among other findings involving smaller religious groups, more than half of American Buddhists surveyed were white, and most Buddhists were converts.
More people in the survey pool identified themselves as Buddhist than Muslim, although both populations were small -- less than 1 percent of the total population. By contrast, Jews accounted for 1.7 percent of the overall population.
The self-identified Buddhists -- 0.7 percent of those surveyed -- illustrate a core challenge to estimating religious affiliation: What does affiliation mean?
It's unclear whether people who called themselves Buddhists did so because they practice yoga or meditation, for instance, or claim affiliation with a Buddhist institution.
The report does not project membership figures for religious groups, in part because the survey is not as authoritative as a census and didn't count children, Lugo said. The U.S. Census does not ask questions on religion.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/02/25/religion.survey.ap/index.html
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I guess niggas live sheltered lives too, becuz, in ALL honesty I'm NOT a religious cat like that. I've haven't been to church in years, I'm a straight up heathen, but I NEVER, NEVER knew people didn't believe in God like this UNTIL I came thru on this message board. And I'm shook. Like, for real. I can't emphasize the fact on how I ain't religious like that but this board got me back into it, becuz, I never knew this. I never knew atheism, that's why I'm up in every thread lately about religion, becuz I'm shook, it's embarrassing I guess, but hey, I've learned. Shit is crazy. I'm really starting to get scared about this shit. Fuckkk, I swear on everythang, my prayers at night done switched to somethang awful, I'm sitting here thanking God for me believing in him, LMAO.
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LMAO @ being scared of atheists. Should we talk about the myriad reasons there are to be scared of christians?
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LMAO @ being scared of atheists. Should we talk about the myriad reasons there are to be scared of christians?
word. I mean
I can't emphasize the fact on how I ain't religious like that but this board got me back into it, becuz, I never knew this. I never knew atheism, that's why I'm up in every thread lately about religion, becuz I'm shook, it's embarrassing I guess, but hey, I've learned. Shit is crazy. I'm really starting to get scared about this shit.
Why? Atheism and Agnosticism are not related to Satanism and the worship of evil, just in case you're mixing things up. Atheism is the strong belief that there is/are no god(s) and agnosticism is the general mindset of being doubtful of the existence of any supernatural power as implied by the word "God". Those are not terms for hideous criminals eating babies and raping infants.
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LMAO @ being scared of atheists. Should we talk about the myriad reasons there are to be scared of christians?
word. I mean
I can't emphasize the fact on how I ain't religious like that but this board got me back into it, becuz, I never knew this. I never knew atheism, that's why I'm up in every thread lately about religion, becuz I'm shook, it's embarrassing I guess, but hey, I've learned. Shit is crazy. I'm really starting to get scared about this shit.
Why? Atheism and Agnosticism are not related to Satanism and the worship of evil, just in case you're mixing things up. Atheism is the strong belief that there is/are no god(s) and agnosticism is the general mindset of being doubtful of the existence of any supernatural power as implied by the word "God". Those are not terms for hideous criminals eating babies and raping infants.
LOL yea. Everybody knows atheists and agnostics are homosexual-marrying terrorist abortionist prostitute drug addicted devil worshiping family hating sexual deviant demon conjurers completely devoid of an morals.
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Not surprised. This happened to lots of cats I know. We all get tired of praying to a white man's Jesus.
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going off the gold standard, and becoming secular, a godless government,
americas ending soon.
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Damn, now I'm just another statistics.
Religious people are creepy as fuck. I go to church every once in a while for laughs. Goofy muhfuckas.
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Damn, now I'm just another statistics.
Religious people are creepy as fuck. I go to church every once in a while for laughs. Goofy muhfuckas.
I wouldnt say all religious people, but those evangelical weirdos are pretty creepy.
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LMAO @ being scared of atheists. Should we talk about the myriad reasons there are to be scared of christians?
word. I mean
I can't emphasize the fact on how I ain't religious like that but this board got me back into it, becuz, I never knew this. I never knew atheism, that's why I'm up in every thread lately about religion, becuz I'm shook, it's embarrassing I guess, but hey, I've learned. Shit is crazy. I'm really starting to get scared about this shit.
Why? Atheism and Agnosticism are not related to Satanism and the worship of evil, just in case you're mixing things up. Atheism is the strong belief that there is/are no god(s) and agnosticism is the general mindset of being doubtful of the existence of any supernatural power as implied by the word "God". Those are not terms for hideous criminals eating babies and raping infants.
LOL yea. Everybody knows atheists and agnostics are homosexual-marrying terrorist abortionist prostitute drug addicted devil worshiping family hating sexual deviant demon conjurers completely devoid of an morals.
But look at the hate. I mean come on. All I said was they scare me, and niggas went into this shit. Which is why I feel the way I do..
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Damn, now I'm just another statistics.
Religious people are creepy as fuck. I go to church every once in a while for laughs. Goofy muhfuckas.
I wouldnt say all religious people, but those evangelical weirdos are pretty creepy.
And I hear that. Them fuckin' Jehovah Witness's too. And Born Again Christians.
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Damn, now I'm just another statistics.
Religious people are creepy as fuck. I go to church every once in a while for laughs. Goofy muhfuckas.
I wouldnt say all religious people, but those evangelical weirdos are pretty creepy.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to generalize. I've grown up around a lot of cuckoo evangelicals and they're usually the most conflicted, corrupt people....go figure.
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LMAO @ being scared of atheists. Should we talk about the myriad reasons there are to be scared of christians?
word. I mean
I can't emphasize the fact on how I ain't religious like that but this board got me back into it, becuz, I never knew this. I never knew atheism, that's why I'm up in every thread lately about religion, becuz I'm shook, it's embarrassing I guess, but hey, I've learned. Shit is crazy. I'm really starting to get scared about this shit.
Why? Atheism and Agnosticism are not related to Satanism and the worship of evil, just in case you're mixing things up. Atheism is the strong belief that there is/are no god(s) and agnosticism is the general mindset of being doubtful of the existence of any supernatural power as implied by the word "God". Those are not terms for hideous criminals eating babies and raping infants.
LOL yea. Everybody knows atheists and agnostics are homosexual-marrying terrorist abortionist prostitute drug addicted devil worshiping family hating sexual deviant demon conjurers completely devoid of an morals.
But look at the hate. I mean come on. All I said was they scare me, and niggas went into this shit. Which is why I feel the way I do..
LOL are you serious? You are scared of atheists because I thought it was funny that you're scared of them?
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^ No nigga.
Look at the hate that came out chu about religion. Ain't no nobody religious showing hate towards ya'll, we just think ya'll crazy.
marrying terrorist abortionist prostitute drug addicted devil worshiping family hating sexual deviant demon conjurers completely devoid of an morals.
Damnnn.
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^ No nigga.
Look at the hate that came out chu about religion. Ain't no nobody religious showing hate towards ya'll, we just think ya'll crazy.
Religious people constantly condemn nonreligious/atheist people in order to boost their own self-esteems. Shit, they used to kill them just generations ago.
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I go to church every week, at least I know that I am going to heavan.
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I go to church every week, at least I know that I am going to heavan.
Allah says no, you're actually going to hell. Don't get your hopes up.
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^ No nigga.
Look at the hate that came out chu about religion. Ain't no nobody religious showing hate towards ya'll, we just think ya'll crazy.
marrying terrorist abortionist prostitute drug addicted devil worshiping family hating sexual deviant demon conjurers completely devoid of an morals.
Damnnn.
what hate? I was making fun of people who are scared of atheists for being atheists. YOU said YOU are SCARED of ATHEISTS. And who is the "yall" you're referring to?
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^ No nigga.
Look at the hate that came out chu about religion. Ain't no nobody religious showing hate towards ya'll, we just think ya'll crazy.
Religious people constantly condemn nonreligious/atheist people. Shit, they used to kill them just generations ago.
1. Yes, some of them do and "y'all are crazy" might not be hate, but it's obviously condescending. 2. They used to kill them in the parts of the world we live in. They still do in others.
And Quiet Truth, I don't really get you anyways. There's been no hate of religion, in here there's been criticism of certain people who consider themselves religious. Also, I still don't see why you're scared of atheists and agnostics. I'd really love to find out about that one.
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Also, I still don't see why you're scared of atheists and agnostics. I'd really love to find out about that one.
Reality can be quite frightening.
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I go to church every week, at least I know that I am going to heavan.
Assuming you mean heaven (as opposed to some unknown village named Heavan), I'm also assuming you think you bought God's friendship by spending some time in a religious institution every week. How nice of God, to be giving away entrance tickets to heaven so easily.
You should thank Him for His mercy on your antisocial thoughts regarding foreign people. God doesn't want peace, does He? Or has He sold His soul by guaranteeing you a safe spot in heaven, when there will be no Iraqi's, because Iraqi's don't attend churches?
Or is heaven simply that place in your mind where you find peace after fooling yourself with spiritual contradictions? If so, count your blessings, because indeed you're going to heaven. Good luck out there, sinner!
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lol@religious people who think they can manipulate God
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Just to clarify, you dont get into heaven by going to church or your own works (cuz even one is guilty of commiting sin) in order to get into heaven God wants perfection but the thing is no one is perfect, you still haved sin, if God judged everyone for the good things that they did he would have to judge everyone differently and then he would also have to judge us for the bad we have done. that is why christ (sinless/perfect) sacrificed his life (The lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world) for us, that by his sheding of blood we are saved,
im tired of when people put christianity under the same umbrella as all these other religions which claim that being good alone or praying or doing something for God will guarantee you a place in heaven (but what about the bad things you do). Christianity is the only religion where God did something for us so that we can get into heaven. when you start understanding what Christianty is about you realise that it is deeper than how it looks/is portrayed.
i think a lot of people leave their religion because of a lack of understanding or how it is being portrayed, by the media/hypocrites.
(just my two cents)
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Religion is a way for people of weakness to feel more righteous and to have a sense of control in their lives. They are afraid to admit that they do not (and nobody will have all of life's answers. So to fill this void, they come up with a fairy tale in order to answer life's mysteries. Those, like myself, who accept the realities of life do not need need to know the answers or to feel above anyone else because I will die and rot like the rest of you, thus making religion irrelevant. I don't really need that fairy tale ending of heaven to make me sleep well at night. My destiny is death (just like everything else in the known universe) and we will all fall victim to it.
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Fuck it, ready for my opinions, seeing as though barely anybody on this board believes in God, I'ma be honest and prolly crucified, but fuck it, since we clearly understand how y'all feel about God believers, here's what I think, I think atheist's think they are better than anybody else. That's how I feel. Why do I feel that why? I feel like they put people down, 'y'all are dumb, ain't no such thank as God, y'all gullible'. I feel they like power. We all have rights, and we all choose to believe what we want, however, they seem to think everythang a man does with a sense of God, violates THEIR rights. They are changing laws. They are trying' to wipe out classes and history in school. They have a strong hand on control and they lovin' it. I believe it has suburban culture written all over it. Basically becuz the poor man slash wise man believes in faith and ya'll seem to think we get what we deserve by decisions that we make, but of course we look to God sayin' he choose us to have this life, which y'all think is an excuse to living the way we do. I am NOT racist but I AM prejudice against class and I believe it is a rich man's religion.
There's no such thang as God becuz there's no proof. Well there is proof. Y'all just don't wanna see it. I mean these are my opinions, it's just how I feel. Ya'll may not even come close to this.. I just am SHOCKED, becuz I never KNEW atheism is as big as it is. Esp in America. But I find it crazy that Britain brought religion HERE and lived by it, we all know history so I ain't gon explain, but they brought it HERE, built the new world on religion and now they don't believe in it. Hmm. Britain is like what, more than 30% atheist? Now, America's gonna follow them again? All I'ma say is faith move mountains, it has explanations, and in my heart it's the truth. I CAN'T comprehend how ya'll look the other way, but I guess ya'll can say the same for me. That's life I suppose.
I just don't like the 'atheist' belief. I think it takes away from hope. I think it's not gettin' pushed off as an 'excuse' now. All I think it is, is a scary trend, and we all know once one person starts somethang, followers come with it. Kinda like the frobidden fruit. Put faith into somethang ya'll, it's not bad, trust.
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I go to church every week, at least I know that I am going to heavan.
What is you die while masturbating yourself to Asian porn and fantasizing about the gulf of jess before you have a chance to ask the lord to forgive you for your indiscretions?
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God wants perfection but the thing is no one is perfect, you still haved sin
You're a sinner if you're not flawless? Every man is a sinner, and perfection does not exist? Does that make me, as well as yourself, a sinner, so long as we don't solve every single mystery about the universe - so long as any question remains? Does that mean that to question is a sin? Does that mean the questioning that spawned all great thoughts and inventions was utterly wrong and sinful? In other words, does God ask you to stop being the way He supposedly created you? Does that mean God hates Himself and His magnum opus?
The implications of religion and its fallacies are really very obvious, yet the religious man won't recognise them. Is that because religion is said to be 'above logic' and 'beyond reasonable explaining', as if we're talking about some outer realm - a different reality in a different universe? Well guess what, we do live in our human universe, and that does mean the corrupted implications of religion are very real.
if God judged everyone for the good things that they did he would have to judge everyone differently and then he would also have to judge us for the bad we have done. that is why christ (sinless/perfect) sacrificed his life (The lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world) for us, that by his sheding of blood we are saved,
I'm assuming that to live a sinless and perfect life, your life would have to be successful in terms of being maintained and undamaged. To be sinless would be to be full of strength and life.
Anyone who sacrifices his life is a sinner. To give up your life is to erase your very existance. To be without sin is to undertake actions that promote life, not to dispose of it. That makes Jesus Christ a worse sinner than the man who goes out to rob liquor stores - at least a thug's actions are to his benefit. You can't dispose of yourself and rightfully call it a virtue; that's in conflict with the terms of life. Being alive means to be happy, satisfied, stimulated, motivated, integrity, healthy, strong, conscious and vital. They are opposed to submission, blind faith, humbleness, depression, states of moral corruption (such as praising sacrifice), self-restraint - the representatives of death. These do NOT in any way resemble successful life.
Fuck it, ready for my opinions, seeing as though barely anybody on this board believes in God, I'ma be honest and prolly crucified, but fuck it, since we clearly understand how y'all feel about God believers, here's what I think, I think atheist's think they are better than anybody else. That's how I feel. Why do I feel that why? I feel like they put people down, 'y'all are dumb, ain't no such thank as God, y'all gullible'. I feel they like power. We all have rights, and we all choose to believe what we want, however, they seem to think everythang a man does with a sense of God, violates THEIR rights.
I'm sorry QT, but not even Job could match the amount of ignorant bullshit you just spouted. I know you've got the integrity to be sincere like this and I respect you for that reason, but your post made no sense at all.
You know how 'we' feel about about God believers? Are you sure? I'm not seeing anyone getting disrespected or picked at for his beliefs. This is a message board and we exchange thoughts. Whenever people disagree, does that necessarily mean they can't get along? Get the hell out of here - some of my best friends are people with views that differ greatly from mine. Some are religious, some are left wingers, some are hedonists, but they are beautiful people after all. I can have the greatest conversations in the world with a religious friend.
Do you notice the contradiction when you say "I think atheists think they are better than anybody else" and you conclude they lack faith? You say they lack faith, yet according to you they do believe they are better. It's a different kind of faith, to believe in one self, but a very fundamental one at that.
I simply refuse to give a personal response to your outcry against atheists. You're condemning people in a way that reminds me of the black nationalists on this board. Next time when you make such statements, ask yourself, who's being intolerant to who?
There's no such thang as God becuz there's no proof. Well there is proof. Y'all just don't wanna see it.
Provide proof and the world shall be a better place. We don't want to see it? You know that's bullshit, because all atheists go by is reason. Provide reasonable proof! Atheists want to know, not to believe or assume or guess.
I just am SHOCKED, becuz I never KNEW atheism is as big as it is. Esp in America.
That's right. You assumed - you blanked out any sense of willing to test and find the truth; but you didn't really know. Reality proves to be different, and now it has you shook. Voix-là: the nature of believing. Buckshot once put it nicely: "Don't believe; belief is blind faith." It blanks out reality, for a lack of urging to find the truth. What you get is a state of deliberate deception.
I find it crazy that Britain brought religion HERE and lived by it, we all know history so I ain't gon explain, but they brought it HERE, built the new world on religion and now they don't believe in it. Hmm. Britain is like what, more than 30% atheist? Now, America's gonna follow them again?
The Dutch founded New York, and the largest proportion of the Dutch is atheistic now (42% - www.cbs.nl). Those numbers are probably even downplaying the amount of atheists in this country - since birth I have been registered as a member of the Calvinist church, can you imagine? There's probably plenty of others like me who are blindly counted as being religious.
So what, the Brits brought religion to the US? GB itself used to be highly religious back then, but things have changed. You make it seem as if changing is unforgivable. Forget about progress, don't let things evolve and develop?
All I'ma say is faith move mountains, it has explanations, and in my heart it's the truth. I CAN'T comprehend how ya'll look the other way, but I guess ya'll can say the same for me. That's life I suppose.
I just don't like the 'atheist' belief. I think it takes away from hope. I think it's not gettin' pushed off as an 'excuse' now. All I think it is, is a scary trend, and we all know once one person starts somethang, followers come with it. Kinda like the frobidden fruit. Put faith into somethang ya'll, it's not bad, trust.
And atheists don't have faith?
faith (fāth) pronunciation
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.(Answers.com)
After having read the rest of my post, you know atheists are not at all devoid of faith. They just don't like blind faith. Scary trend, huh?
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You're a sinner if you're not flawless? Every man is a sinner, and perfection does not exist? Does that make me, as well as yourself, a sinner, so long as we don't solve every single mystery about the universe - so long as any question remains? Does that mean that to question is a sin? Does that mean the questioning that spawned all great thoughts and inventions was utterly wrong and sinful? In other words, does God ask you to stop being the way He supposedly created you? Does that mean God hates Himself and His magnum opus?
Sorry for not replying sooner I’ve been busy. Eleven I just want to say that, You misunderstood me, when I said God wants perfection I didn’t mean he wants us to know everything knowing. I meant perfect in the sense of sinless, God wants us to be sinless, sorry for that misunderstanding, I should of used a better word, I meant that no human being is perfect (sinless not omniscient or omnipotent,) to be sinless is to be without spot or blemish. , yes everyone has committed sin (you and I), everyone has either lied, stolen, coveted, etc therefore we are sinners, people don’t consider things like lying or stealing wrong or “that bad” but God does because God is holy and sinners can not enter the kingdom of God sin has to be removed from the record of the sinner in order to enter heaven.
That is why God sent his sinless son to die for us because the bible says
“Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins”
We are made perfect through Christ
I'm assuming that to live a sinless and perfect life, your life would have to be successful in terms of being maintained and undamaged. To be sinless would be to be full of strength and life.
Anyone who sacrifices his life is a sinner. To give up your life is to erase your very existance. To be without sin is to undertake actions that promote life, not to dispose of it. That makes Jesus Christ a worse sinner than the man who goes out to rob liquor stores - at least a thug's actions are to his benefit. You can't dispose of yourself and rightfully call it a virtue; that's in conflict with the terms of life
When I said Christ sacrificed his life I didn’t mean that he commitied suicide
Definititon of sacrifice: the act of losing or surrendering something as a penalty for a mistake or fault or failure to perform
Its not suicide because first of all Christ didn’t put the nails in his hands and hang himself on the cross, or asked any one to of that matter, people were out looking for him to kill him and instead of running he admitted that he was the one they were looking for and they took him and killed him.
Second of all Jesus was Gods gift to humanity, Gods word made flesh so therefore Jesus wasn’t a normal man, if Jesus was a natural man his dying on the cross would have been in vain because natural man is sinful.
That is how we are made right through Christ, because he was the (word of God)
This is basically the purpose of Jesus (the word of God) Sin entered the world through Adam In order for man to be redeemed of sin a sacrifice had to be made, since everything on earth is tainted with sin God had to enter the physical realm through a spotless/sinless body which he created from his own word, in order to redeem man from sin that body had to take on the sins of the world in order to die go to hell (to take the authority over death that satan stole from man) so that death may be overcome, God was the only that that could overcome death because his is life and cant die.
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^^^If God wanted us to be sinless then he would have made us that way. He didn't make us sinless either because he didn't want to or because he can't. If he just didn't want to make us sinless, then he is a vile vengeful God for punishing us for being the way he made us. If he didn't make us sinless because he can't then he is in fact not omnipotent, which would imply that he is not God. LOL
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turf God didnt make us this way, he made us sinless but do you remember the story of adam and eve
adam (man) was sinless but rejected the way of God (Gods perfect will for man) and listened to satan which allowed sin to enter into the world. God created Adam and told him what to do to live a peaceful, joyful & carefree life but Adam rejected it therefore forfiting eternal life because if you dont want it Gods way (eternal life) your only left with satan way (death, suffering, pain, stress), there is no middle.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
but thank God cuz he made a way Through his son to bring us back, a free gift given unto all men
Romans 5:15-19 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! (16)Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. (17) For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
(18)Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (19) For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Peace
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Like I said, if God punishes people for being the way he made them (susceptible to sin/unconvinced of the existence of God) then he is a vile and disgusting god. Thats like raising a child and telling him all through his childhood that he's worthless and will grow up to be a loser, providing an environment shitty enough to ensure it happens that way and then beating him constantly for it when he does in fact establish himself as a loser. Who was it that said something like "People were lookin for God but found religion instead"
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^ Free will nigga. Unconvinced of the existence of God? It's your own mind homie, in The Bible, it tells you what you should do. He tells us to believe in him. You didn't install it in your brain, free will.
He punishes you for the decisions you make.
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One question every Christian I debate with refuses to answer: If God is the Creator of ALL and he's a LOVING god, then how come he created evil?
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Yo, I was reading The Bible the other day, just to look back on it and it's harsh. It seemed all demanding and shit. Real forceful. Jesus seems more 'loving' now. Lol. I always saw it the other way kinda. Ahh, I don't know. Maybe it was my mood and how I was reading it in mind. Who knows.
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^ Free will nigga. Unconvinced of the existence of God? It's your own mind homie, in The Bible, it tells you what you should do. He tells us to believe in him. You didn't install it in your brain, free will.
He punishes you for the decisions you make.
Free will is what makes you susceptible to break his rules. For the third time, God will punish you for being the way he made you. Doesn't sound like a loving god to me.
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But it also makes you susceptible to following his rules. What you think everytime you do somethang bad you gon get punished? It ain't like that.
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But it also makes you susceptible to following his rules. What you think everytime you do somethang bad you gon get punished? It ain't like that.
OK, well why wouldn't God just make you do the right thing anyway if he has the power to? Just to give himself a chance to put somebody in hell. He gets off on making people suffer. But this is a loving god right?
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You misunderstood me, when I said God wants perfection I didn’t mean he wants us to know everything knowing.
So according to God, it is not perfect to know everything? Knowing everything is nothing better than to be completely ignorant? Mental development is not a virtue according to God?
I meant perfect in the sense of sinless, God wants us to be sinless, [...] I meant that no human being is perfect (sinless not omniscient or omnipotent,) to be sinless is to be without spot or blemish.
Doesn't it require mental development and intellectual insight to know what is wrong and what is not? Isn't it true that the more you know, the better you'll be able to operate righteously in a complex world?
yes everyone has committed sin (you and I), everyone has either lied, stolen, coveted, etc therefore we are sinners, people don’t consider things like lying or stealing wrong or “that bad” but God does because God is holy and sinners can not enter the kingdom of God sin has to be removed from the record of the sinner in order to enter heaven.
The only sin I'm apparently guilty of, is not believing in God. And I do not believe that's a sin; it's one of the things I believe in, and I don't believe that my beliefs are sinful. I have no reason to suspect that.
Depending on your definition of a lie, I don't think I'm a liar, I've never stolen or treated people in a way that goes against my beliefs. Isn't that exactly what a sin is: to be going against your beliefs? To contradict?
That is why God sent his sinless son to die for us because the bible says
“Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins”
We are made perfect through Christ
So Jesus had to become flawed (his blood had to be shed), precisely because he was too perfect?
Jesus didn't invent a cure for cancer. He can't have been perfect, or sinless. Had he used his capacities better, he maybe could have achieved more; he could have made mankind better. For everything he could have done, but didn't do... Strictly speaking, his failing to achieve is sloth. That's a sin, is it not?
When I said Christ sacrificed his life I didn’t mean that he commitied suicide
Definititon of sacrifice: the act of losing or surrendering something as a penalty for a mistake or fault or failure to perform
Its not suicide because first of all Christ didn’t put the nails in his hands and hang himself on the cross, or asked any one to of that matter, people were out looking for him to kill him and instead of running he admitted that he was the one they were looking for and they took him and killed him.
Second of all Jesus was Gods gift to humanity, Gods word made flesh so therefore Jesus wasn’t a normal man, if Jesus was a natural man his dying on the cross would have been in vain because natural man is sinful.
I didn't intend to imply that Jesus committed suicide. But did Jesus do everything he possibly could to remain alive? No. Did he allow himself to be punished and crucified? Yes. Did he really believe in his own guilt? I don't think so. He just let it happen.
What he did by sacrifising himself, was pointing yet another finger at the dispicable state of men. He thought of himself as being better than that. He thought of the people as being unworthy of his presence (or else he would have tried to avoid his death, don't you think?).
Jesus hated his life among the people. His actions weren't pro life; he let the rulers punish him unjustly. That makes Jesus a sinner, for two reasons:
1) Not standing firm behind his beliefs, thus compromising and flipflopping;
2) Giving up his life.
This is basically the purpose of Jesus (the word of God) Sin entered the world through Adam In order for man to be redeemed of sin a sacrifice had to be made, since everything on earth is tainted with sin God had to enter the physical realm through a spotless/sinless body which he created from his own word, in order to redeem man from sin that body had to take on the sins of the world in order to die go to hell (to take the authority over death that satan stole from man) so that death may be overcome, God was the only that that could overcome death because his is life and cant die.
Jesus didn't succeed, did he? There still are sins around us everywhere. Now, what kind of perfected warrior willfully lets such evil prevail? That's a contradictio in terminis. You can't be perfect and not fight evil, if perfection and evil are opposed. Jesus didn't love mankind, and he didn't love his life, for a good reason: he didn't believe in any of it. He didn't believe in making mankind better, he didn't believe in enhancing life, he didn't believe in curing sins. Instead, he helped mankind to sin. He's the worst kind of disbeliever you'll ever hear about. If he really believed in God's creation, he would have fought for mankind.
I'm sorry to break your hero down like that, but that's the way I see it.
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But it also makes you susceptible to following his rules. What you think everytime you do somethang bad you gon get punished? It ain't like that.
OK, well why wouldn't God just make you do the right thing anyway if he has the power to? Just to give himself a chance to put somebody in hell. He gets off on making people suffer. But this is a loving god right?
Yup. If it ain't rough it ain't right. If you was God, please don't tell me you would create a world in which you controlled EVERYBODY and EVERYTHANG they did. Where's the fun in that? To suffer is to live..
It is not a question of God allowing or not allowing things to happen. It is part of living. Some things we do to ourselves, other things we do to each other. Our Father knows about every bird which falls to the ground, but He does not always prevent it from falling. What are we to learn from this? That our response to what happens is more important than what happens. Here is a mystery: one man’s experience drives him to curse God, while another man’s identical experience drives him to bless God. Your response to what happens is more important than what happens.
But really, life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you respond to it, word?
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To suffer is to live..
I refuse to believe you mean that.
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To suffer is to live..
I refuse to believe you mean that.
Shitt, I said it the wrong way, it's..To live is to suffer.
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To suffer is to live..
I refuse to believe you mean that.
Shitt, I said it the wrong way, it's..To live is to suffer.
lol :D It's all good! In that case I agree with you: it takes a certain amount of effort to live; only if you're willing to suffer, the pleasure that comes afterwards will exceed the suffering.
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To suffer is to live..
I refuse to believe you mean that.
Shitt, I said it the wrong way, it's..To live is to suffer.
lol :D It's all good! In that case I agree with you: it takes a certain amount of effort to live; only if you're willing to suffer, the pleasure that comes afterwards will exceed the suffering.
Fo' real, exactly. 8)
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We agree? We really do? Wow. Hahaha ;D
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LMFAO! A 1st? Nahh, you my nigga though. 8)
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But it also makes you susceptible to following his rules. What you think everytime you do somethang bad you gon get punished? It ain't like that.
OK, well why wouldn't God just make you do the right thing anyway if he has the power to? Just to give himself a chance to put somebody in hell. He gets off on making people suffer. But this is a loving god right?
Yup. If it ain't rough it ain't right. If you was God, please don't tell me you would create a world in which you controlled EVERYBODY and EVERYTHANG they did. Where's the fun in that? To suffer is to live..
So are you now also saying that God gives you the chance to disobey him simply because he finds it "fun" to torture people. Neato.
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The God of the Old Testament Bible is worse than Hitler.
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The God of the Old Testament Bible is worse than Hitler.
lol, true that, you don't get any more vile and psychopathic than Yahweh
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Like I said, if God punishes people for being the way he made them (susceptible to sin/unconvinced of the existence of God) then he is a vile and disgusting god. Thats like raising a child and telling him all through his childhood that he's worthless and will grow up to be a loser, providing an environment shitty enough to ensure it happens that way and then beating him constantly for it when he does in fact establish himself as a loser. Who was it that said something like "People were lookin for God but found religion instead"
First of all God didn’t just give us free will and that was it, God told Adam what to choose and then told him the consequences of choosing the wrong way so it wasn’t like he was clueless and Adam (man) decided to choose Satan’s way
You cant blame God for giving us free will, if we didn’t have free will we couldn’t be considered beings we would be objects cause every being has free will even angels have free will, God gives us free will and directs us in the way we should go not for Gods benefit but for ours
The truth is God gave us free will and then told us the right way to go and we disobeyed therefore you can blame god that is like a parent raising the child in the right way (teaching him/her what is right and wrong, providing for him/ her) and then the child ends up being a murderer or rapist how can you blame the parent,?
Turf if God made you do the right thing then it isn’t free will he isn’t going to mess with that, the truth is no one has to go to hell because he has provided a way out through the death of Christ
So according to God, it is not perfect to know everything? Knowing everything is nothing better than to be completely ignorant? Mental development is not a virtue according to God?
Doesn't it require mental development and intellectual insight to know what is wrong and what is not? Isn't it true that the more you know, the better you'll be able to operate righteously in a complex world?
What ??? I wasnt implying that, you really misunderstood me, (its really my fault, sorry) I meant that God doesn’t require us to have all knowledge to get into heaven it not important, being sinless is.
Please forget that I used the word “perfect”, that God wants us to be “perfect” to get into heaven because it was the wrong word to use (as stated before), God requires us to be sinless, when I said perfect earlier I assumed you knew I meant sinless but I forgot that im writing to a non-Christian, if I was talking to a Christian and said God wanted us to be perfect he/she would know I meant sinless, so eleven sorry for this misunderstanding, please substitute the word for sinless.
God likes us to have knowledge otherwise he wouldn’t of given us the ability to learn but having a lot of knowledge will not get you into heaven.
The only sin I'm apparently guilty of, is not believing in God. And I do not believe that's a sin; it's one of the things I believe in, and I don't believe that my beliefs are sinful. I have no reason to suspect that.
Depending on your definition of a lie, I don't think I'm a liar, I've never stolen or treated people in a way that goes against my beliefs. Isn't that exactly what a sin is: to be going against your beliefs? To contradict?
Definition of sin - To commit a sin; violate a law of God or a moral law
So not even looking at in on a spiritual level you know that lying is morally wrong (many people do it including myself but its still wrong) you can not deny that fact that lying is wrong but our standards of right and wrong have degraded
This is what God says
•Stealing is wrong (even taking something small, maybe something that belongs to a sibling or parent)
•Coveting is wrong
•Hating a person is wrong
•Cheating is wrong
•Murder is wrong
•Blasphemy is wrong
•Not showing your parents respect
•And more
You can deny that you have broken one these, if anyone denies that they have broken one of these they have lied (and broken one of these lol) and they are guilty of self justification , we as humans tend to put sins on different levels (stealing is worse than lying etc) God puts them on the same level
The bible says everyone has sinned if you have broken one of the commandment you guilty of breaking all of them because god looks at sin on the same level, it doesn’t matter how many times you sinned or what sins you have committed its still sin and everyone is gulty of it.
So Jesus had to become flawed (his blood had to be shed), precisely because he was too perfect?
Jesus didn't invent a cure for cancer. He can't have been perfect, or sinless. Had he used his capacities better, he maybe could have achieved more; he could have made mankind better. For everything he could have done, but didn't do... Strictly speaking, his failing to achieve
is sloth. That's a sin, is it not?
What do you mean that Jesus didn’t invent a cure for cancer, by Christ dying he did more than he could of done when he was on earth because by his death: he prevented people from going to hell (which is 10000 times worse than cancer), he has given people the power to heal (whether you believe it or not), because through his death he was able to give man back the authority that satan stole from him (the power to be whole) by Jesus dying he overcame the world and every infirmity in it the reason why are world isn’t in a great state is not because of what Jesus didn’t do, its because of how Godless our world is and continues to get the more we reject God we chose to continue give satan authority over us (with murder, sickness, rape etc).
Jesus didn’t give up his life because he was sick of the world, he did it for the benefit of man, he did it to save man,
Jesus never thought he was better than anyone he hang around with prostitutes healing the sick, providing food for the needy
I didn't intend to imply that Jesus committed suicide. But did Jesus do everything he possibly could to remain alive? No. Did he allow himself to be punished and crucified? Yes. Did he really believe in his own guilt? I don't think so. He just let it happen.
What he did by sacrifising himself, was pointing yet another finger at the dispicable state of men. He thought of himself as being better than that. He thought of the people as being unworthy of his presence (or else he would have tried to avoid his death, don't you think?).
Jesus hated his life among the people. His actions weren't pro life; he let the rulers punish him unjustly. That makes Jesus a sinner, for two reasons:
1) Not standing firm behind his beliefs, thus compromising and flipflopping;
2) Giving up his life.
is
Jesus never thought of man as unworthy of his presence that is your interpretation if Jesus would of avoided death what good would that have done to the people in the world and the next generation and us living yeah people could of got healed but they would of still gone to hell so what’s the point of being healed and then dying and going to hell. After he died he gave power to the inhabitants of earth (whoever accepts the power) to overcome its infirmities
Jesus didn't succeed, did he? There still are sins around us everywhere. Now, what kind of perfected warrior willfully lets such evil prevail? That's a contradictio in terminis. You can't be perfect and not fight evil, if perfection and evil are opposed. Jesus didn't love mankind, and he didn't love his life, for a good reason: he didn't believe in any of it. He didn't believe in making mankind better, he didn't believe in enhancing life, he didn't believe in curing sins. Instead, he helped mankind to sin. He's the worst kind of disbeliever you'll ever hear about. If he really believed in God's creation, he would have fought for mankind.
I'm sorry to break your hero down like that, but that's the way I see i
Jesus did destroy sin Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross
The reason why sin still reigns is because we continue to choose to sin. Jesus has given us the power over sin. Sin only exists as long as there are people who want to sin,
The bible states at the end the devil and death will be thrown in the lake of fire, so sin has been destroyed we continue to keep it alive
One question every Christian I debate with refuses to answer: If God is the Creator of ALL and he's a LOVING god, then how come he created evil?
To answer sikotics questions/statements
Evil is not a creation its not a thing it’s a force it came out from good, good and evil are 2 forces just like light and darkness, you cant have light without darkness or Good without bad, its impossible
Isaiah 47:15 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
God formed light and caused darkness (god formed good and evil came from it)
Also the issue of free will you cant have free will if there is only good to choose from
And to answer the God is worse than Hitler statement
If you read the old testament you’ll see that the people that were punished were, murders, rapists (people who raped men women children), men and women who offered their children as sacrifices to foreign Gods. The righteous people were not punished, and the thing is God sent warnings to the people to change their ways in the story of Noah God waited 400 years warning people that they shouldn’t do the things that they are doing and in the end only Noah was saved cuz he listened
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^ simple question: why do you believe all of this? Just wondering...
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Like I said, if God punishes people for being the way he made them (susceptible to sin/unconvinced of the existence of God) then he is a vile and disgusting god. Thats like raising a child and telling him all through his childhood that he's worthless and will grow up to be a loser, providing an environment shitty enough to ensure it happens that way and then beating him constantly for it when he does in fact establish himself as a loser. Who was it that said something like "People were lookin for God but found religion instead"
First of all God didn’t just give us free will and that was it, God told Adam what to choose and then told him the consequences of choosing the wrong way so it wasn’t like he was clueless and Adam (man) decided to choose Satan’s way
You cant blame God for giving us free will, if we didn’t have free will we couldn’t be considered beings we would be objects cause every being has free will even angels have free will, God gives us free will and directs us in the way we should go not for Gods benefit but for ours
The truth is God gave us free will and then told us the right way to go and we disobeyed therefore you can blame god that is like a parent raising the child in the right way (teaching him/her what is right and wrong, providing for him/ her) and then the child ends up being a murderer or rapist how can you blame the parent,?
Turf if God made you do the right thing then it isn’t free will he isn’t going to mess with that, the truth is no one has to go to hell because he has provided a way out through the death of Christ
You don't get it. By proxy of giving man free will, God gave man the opportunity to be tortured for all of eternity. If it was so important that his will be carried o ut, then why not just impose his will rather than torturing for all of eternity those who have been led astray? That is not the action of a loving god. It seems to me that you would do everything in your power to keep your loved ones away from something like that.
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^ Why you so worried about if he's loving or not? Nigga, you sound like you praise Satan. :-\
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^ Why you so worried about if he's loving or not? Nigga, you sound like you praise Satan. :-\
LOL where did I say anything about satan? And I'm absolutely not worried about whether he's loving or not. I'm just pointing out one of many contradictions and inconsistencies that make it difficult for logical people to accept this particular doctrine as absolute truth.
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They always said punishment comes outta love. When your moms put you in the corner for stealing your brothers jolly ranchers, did she ever do that shit outta hate? Nahh, I think she was tryin' to teach you a lesson. Only did it out of love, word?
Word.
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They always said punishment comes outta love. When your moms put you in the corner for stealing your brothers jolly ranchers, did she ever do that shit outta hate? Nahh, I think she was tryin' to teach you a lesson. Only did it out of love, word?
Word.
Your mother never intended to have you endure the most intense and brutal suffering until the end of time.
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They always said punishment comes outta love. When your moms put you in the corner for stealing your brothers jolly ranchers, did she ever do that shit outta hate? Nahh, I think she was tryin' to teach you a lesson. Only did it out of love, word?
Word.
Your mother never intended to have you endure the most intense and brutal suffering until the end of time.
And what's the 'most intense and brutal suffering until the end of time'?
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They always said punishment comes outta love. When your moms put you in the corner for stealing your brothers jolly ranchers, did she ever do that shit outta hate? Nahh, I think she was tryin' to teach you a lesson. Only did it out of love, word?
Word.
Your mother never intended to have you endure the most intense and brutal suffering until the end of time.
And what's the 'most intense and brutal suffering until the end of time'?
LOL Fuck homie, do I gotta spell it out to you? What exactly goes on in this place you believe in called Hell? Quit playin dumb.
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Man lives in a universe of cause and effect and the consequences of certain causes are inescapable. Fire burns, water drowns, disease germs destroy. These facts have moral implications. Men live in a universe in which the consequences of what they do are inescapable, and therefore their responsibility for what they do is equally inescapable. Without this burden of 'natural law' man could do as he liked with impunity, and there would be no responsibility. God made the universe this way because He is a moral God who makes men responsible beings with freewill to choose how they will act.
Nigga, fuck it, who gives a fuck, go to church.