West Coast Connection Forum
DUBCC - Tha Connection => Outbound Connection => Topic started by: J.E. on February 11, 2009, 03:43:12 AM
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Illmatic of course.
It Was Written.
Stillmatic
God's Son
and
Untitled
Get Rich or Die Tryin' is a dope album but it ain't on the same level with those albums I mentioned. Ok, GRODT might be better than God's Son... but still, Nas has at least 4 albums which are better. This is my opinion. Nas' albums are better lyrically and Illmatic has better production.
Does anyone agree?
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I'll stick to 3. The first 3 you said.
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i didnt even like untitled.
but yeah like what dwr said those 3
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I'll stick to 3. The first 3 you said.
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I'll stick to 3. The first 3 you said.
Yep. Although I could go back and forth between IWW and GRODT.
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I do. But what's your point?
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I say only Illmatic and It Was Written. I think GRODT is pretty dope. 8)
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I say only Illmatic and It Was Written. I think GRODT is pretty dope. 8)
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4 minus God's Son.
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haha
damn tuff one
maybe not 5 but close but not 5.
50's work on that was crazy
gods son was dope
stillmatic crazy
but after that he fell off (somewhat)
I do. But what's your point?
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I'll stick to 3. The first 3 you said.
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1. Illmatic
2. It Was Written
3. Stillmatic
4. God's Son
5. The Lost Tapes
Id put Streets Disciple up there too. His last 2 albums are garbage.
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I'll definitely give you the first three. I think Get Rich slightly beats out God's Son and Untitled.
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yea, i cant believe i forgot
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zYaFP45lGWM/RyILK-VO6vI/AAAAAAAAAow/e1P8RrUYC0M/s320/nas+lost+tapes.jpg)
possibly the 2nd or 3rd best after ill
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yea, i cant believe i forgot
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zYaFP45lGWM/RyILK-VO6vI/AAAAAAAAAow/e1P8RrUYC0M/s320/nas+lost+tapes.jpg)
possibly the 2nd or 3rd best after ill
I challenge people to find better Unreleased compilation, that is fire.
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i wonder what happens if somebody stated that he/she prefers 50's first album over each album of Nas
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I do. But what's your point?
I had a discussion with my friend about this.. he said that only Stillmatic & Illmatic are better than Get rich or Die Tryin'.. so I wanted to know what y'all think. Ok, title of this thread could've been better.
And I didn't include Lost Tapes because it's not a "real" album, more like a compilation.
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Illmatic of course.
It Was Written.
Stillmatic
God's Son
and
Untitled
Get Rich or Die Tryin' is a dope album but it ain't on the same level with those albums I mentioned. Ok, GRODT might be better than God's Son... but still, Nas has at least 4 albums which are better. This is my opinion. Nas' albums are better lyrically and Illmatic has better production.
Does anyone agree?
hell no.
i'm not really into east coast rap and i think Nas gets too much love in this section.
with that said, Get Rich or Die Tryin' would have been shitty without Dre.
i'd say illmatic is better than 50's debut and maybe Stillmatic as well ( not sure, that's a tough choice), but the others are no match.
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illmatic
stillmatic
it was written
lost tapes
hip hop is dead
untitled
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As time passes by, GRODT drop's in rank ,IMO
don't really have alot of reply value to me....
A true classic stand's the test of time.
(Check Em's stuff, That went stale real quick zero replay value & played disses that no longer hold any weight)
I'd put these 3 over GRODT easy.
Illmatic
It Was Written
Stillmatic
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I think Will Smith has 5 albums better than GRODT and I don't even know if he has 5 albums. So of course Nas does.
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I think Will Smith has 5 albums better than GRODT and I don't even know if he has 5 albums. So of course Nas does.
lol, I think 50's a fucking moron, but GRODT was kinda enjoyable
I'd say:
Illmatic
Stillmatic
The Lost Tapes
It Was Written
HipHop Is Dead
I rarely listen to hiphop these days, but maybe I should check out "Untitled". Haven't heard it yet. But well, yes, I agree he has 5, por lo menos
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...and does anyone agree Nastradamus shits all over The Massacre?
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...and does anyone agree Nastradamus shits all over The Massacre?
I do
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As time passes by, GRODT drop's in rank ,IMO
don't really have alot of reply value to me....
A true classic stand's the test of time.
(Check Em's stuff, That went stale real quick zero replay value & played disses that no longer hold any weight)
I'd put these 3 over GRODT easy.
Illmatic
It Was Written
Stillmatic
Dont agree with that at all homie, Em and 50's shit still gets play regularly, and I still hear the tracks on tv at parties etc. Nas got 2 better albums, 3 at most better than GRODT. Get Rich was dope, Massacre was aite, Curtis was ave...
I think we can all agree Beg For Mercy over Bravehearts album!
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As time passes by, GRODT drop's in rank ,IMO
don't really have alot of reply value to me....
A true classic stand's the test of time.
(Check Em's stuff, That went stale real quick zero replay value & played disses that no longer hold any weight)
I'd put these 3 over GRODT easy.
Illmatic
It Was Written
Stillmatic
Word, them 3 are without doubt better albums than GRODT but 50s debut was one of the best recent album considered a debut.
I agree about alot of eminems material getting played out quick too but grodt>>>sslp as a opening album and illmatic shits on both. It was written and stillmatic are both better than them too.
So i agree with your post! 8)
pz!
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grodt>>>sslp as a opening album
I agree with that. Has more replay value for me.
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I only think 2 are better than GRODT
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...and does anyone agree Nastradamus shits all over The Massacre?
no... i think massacre is very underrated
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...and does anyone agree Nastradamus shits all over The Massacre?
no... i think massacre is very underrated
Sure its got a bit of filler, but there is alot of dope tracks on there. It absolutely shits all over Curtis. What I'm saying is I agree with that too.
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I think Will Smith has 5 albums better than GRODT and I don't even know if he has 5 albums. So of course Nas does.
lol, I think 50's a fucking moron, but GRODT was kinda enjoyable
I'd say:
Illmatic
Stillmatic
The Lost Tapes
It Was Written
HipHop Is Dead
I rarely listen to hiphop these days, but maybe I should check out "Untitled". Haven't heard it yet. But well, yes, I agree he has 5, por lo menos
When Get Rich came out I was still listening to a lot of hip hop and I had a lot of 50 Cent stuff prior to the release of the album and prior to signing with Aftermath. I really anticipated the album and it was a huge let down for me. I liked the mix tapes a lot and expected to hear an artistic growth on the album, instead I got the opposite. He dumbed himself down and became an image to sell. He was this big bad gangster who got shot and his raps were good because they were real. The album still never got played in my earphones after a month.
Anyone that says GRODT was better than SSLP needs to really think about what they are saying. I could give a fuck about production who what album had better club bangers. 50 and Em are rappers abd I'll judge the albums based on the rapping. I personally liked the production and set up of SSLP but I know many did not. But no one can come on here and tell me that 50 Cent was ever remotely close to the level of rapping that Eminem was on as far their debut albums are concerned. Shit the best thing about Get Rich was Eminem's rap.
Take the acapellas of each album and compare them and Eminem's is so far and away better it doesn't matter how good the production on GRODT was (which I thought was mediocre, generic, bullshit anyway).
At least SS had it's own sound that was distinct and didn't sound like every other gangsta rap album coming out like 50s did. Get Rich was early 2000s hip hop by numbers. Nothing original about it.
If Eminem was black and rapped the exact same lines and rhymes but changed the words around for it to be about revolution or some shit it would have been an underground album and so hailed by the hip hop community, but because he was white rapping comedy people find ways to discredit it.
And I don't even like SSLP that much.
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GRODT was ass. It was ass in 2003. It is ass in 2009. You people continue to belittle yourselves and you musical tastes by acting like that album is classic. If GRODT is a classic, than so are my pubes.
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GRODT was ass. It was ass in 2003. It is ass in 2009. You people continue to belittle yourselves and you musical tastes by acting like that album is classic. If GRODT is a classic, than so are my pubes.
Hey man, bash Fitty all you want, but leave your pubes alone.
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...and does anyone agree Nastradamus shits all over The Massacre?
no... i think massacre is very underrated
Sure its got a bit of filler, but there is alot of dope tracks on there. It absolutely shits all over Curtis. What I'm saying is I agree with that too.
Yup I agree, Massacre is very underated in my opinion, plus it contains one of few listenable Yayo verses
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As time passes by, GRODT drop's in rank ,IMO
don't really have alot of reply value to me....
A true classic stand's the test of time.
(Check Em's stuff, That went stale real quick zero replay value & played disses that no longer hold any weight)
I'd put these 3 over GRODT easy.
Illmatic
It Was Written
Stillmatic
Word, them 3 are without doubt better albums than GRODT but 50s debut was one of the best recent album considered a debut.
I agree about alot of eminems material getting played out quick too but grodt>>>sslp as a opening album and illmatic shits on both. It was written and stillmatic are both better than them too.
So i agree with your post! 8)
pz!
i heavily disagree; SSLP beats both
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I think Will Smith has 5 albums better than GRODT and I don't even know if he has 5 albums. So of course Nas does.
lol, I think 50's a fucking moron, but GRODT was kinda enjoyable
I'd say:
Illmatic
Stillmatic
The Lost Tapes
It Was Written
HipHop Is Dead
I rarely listen to hiphop these days, but maybe I should check out "Untitled". Haven't heard it yet. But well, yes, I agree he has 5, por lo menos
When Get Rich came out I was still listening to a lot of hip hop and I had a lot of 50 Cent stuff prior to the release of the album and prior to signing with Aftermath. I really anticipated the album and it was a huge let down for me. I liked the mix tapes a lot and expected to hear an artistic growth on the album, instead I got the opposite. He dumbed himself down and became an image to sell. He was this big bad gangster who got shot and his raps were good because they were real. The album still never got played in my earphones after a month.
Anyone that says GRODT was better than SSLP needs to really think about what they are saying. I could give a fuck about production who what album had better club bangers. 50 and Em are rappers abd I'll judge the albums based on the rapping. I personally liked the production and set up of SSLP but I know many did not. But no one can come on here and tell me that 50 Cent was ever remotely close to the level of rapping that Eminem was on as far their debut albums are concerned. Shit the best thing about Get Rich was Eminem's rap.
Take the acapellas of each album and compare them and Eminem's is so far and away better it doesn't matter how good the production on GRODT was (which I thought was mediocre, generic, bullshit anyway).
At least SS had it's own sound that was distinct and didn't sound like every other gangsta rap album coming out like 50s did. Get Rich was early 2000s hip hop by numbers. Nothing original about it.
If Eminem was black and rapped the exact same lines and rhymes but changed the words around for it to be about revolution or some shit it would have been an underground album and so hailed by the hip hop community, but because he was white rapping comedy people find ways to discredit it.
And I don't even like SSLP that much.
'I could give a fuck about production who what album had better club bangers. 50 and Em are rappers abd I'll judge the albums based on the rapping. '
^^^
that right there is where you are lost. Yes rapping is what you judge a rapper on but this is MUSIC, rapping is part of it. Production on GRODT shits all over sslp if u want to go there.
If thats how u judge all music in all genres in general than just buy the accapellas because no need for anything else...but we both know its not just that which makes music great...or terrible...but just to clarify, im not taking anything away from rapping there because its a great art form if you can have a great flow and play with words BUT great rappers will make a great beat into a great song!..Well often if they're on form, so yes rapping is part of that but sometimes, just because you're the better rapper, does not automatically mean you will make the better music/album.
If you want to call the stuff which came out on 50s debut generic in terms of production which is not true for starters, than eminems album at the time it came out had an even more generic sound because alot of music had that sorta sound when it came out. Another thing, 50s debut album within hiphop circles is considered to have had a very impressive and stylish eastcoast sound for the time it was released. It basically was a fresh blueprint in how to make a hiphop album. Not saying its better or worse than previoius blueprints but when it came, it was fresh and something new at the time.
As for you saying about club bangers, thats part of rapping! He was making a club banger and it worked! Eminems always coming out with these shitty corny first single but 50 actually dropped a heated first single! In da club is an amazing club track...yes AMAZING and the production on it is top top class. Thats a beat that will get a club bouncing each time and everyone i knew who liked hiphop and did not loved the joint and the beat at the time which pretty much sums it all up for me.
As for the being white part, please. Because he is white he has sold loads more than he should! At his peak, eminem was great BUT he has achieved alot more than he should have based on the fact he is white so people are more amazed that 'damn a white kid can rap like that' which gets him spins on radio stations he should not be getting spins on and gets props where others would not. So dont be playing the white card, because thats bullshit. Eminems album sounded a mix between what was coming out from dres music and detriots sound whereas 50 had a gangsta album record BUT if you think 50s album sounded like every other gangsta album coming out at the time you're deluded because firstly thats not true, the numbers simply prove that point and it took a different approach.
At the time, you had to have a corny single to make a hit, push units etc and then 50 came fresh with an out of the box club banger that was brilliant.
You say u think 50 had generic bullshit production but was there not a time when you used to say you thought eminem was a better producer than dr dre?? lol, im not sure if that was you but if it was, that would maybe make your point of view a little more understandable.
By the way, im not saying 50 is a better rapper than eminem, not at all, but 50 dropped a heated debut (this coming from someone who thought massacre and curtis were both average to wack) and the music and his delivery and words at times were both fresh and nice to hear on a gangsta rap album. Many men, in da club, heat, wanksta, back down , high all the time are all heated tracks.
As for you listening to alot of 50 prior to his album coming out, well if u say so. I won't question that but regardless, 50 came correct on his debut as proved by both his numbers and the general approval the album gets within hiphop circles. (yes i know, numbers do not always mean great albums. For example - Encore, absolute shit)
As for you saying the best thing about grodt was eminems verse, that pretty much sums up your arguement for me. His verse was very good BUT there was a whole bunch of things to come out of that album which was MUCH better than that verse! ...
I know u a big eminem fan or seem to be by mostly being in any thread with his name mentioned and ive been here for years so ive read alot of your shit and usually whether i agree or don't, you usually have a good way of presenting your view but the way you just described 50 and eminem in this, almost sounds like a clueless attempt at a groupie tryna spit 'knowledge'...which we both know u aint, but some of stuff you wrote in that was laughable to me.
grodt>>sslp...imo
I'm sure white people in here would probably disagree because they all seem to love the album and mostly white people consider sslp a great album whereas you'll see black people give him a pass more on MMLP where i would also say was his finest moment.
SSLP = 4 MIC ALBUM imo
GRODT = 4.25 probably - slightly better than sslp but with higher peaks likes in da club and many men etc whereas eminem had the great guilty conscience and other records but i think GRODT is slightly better.
By the way, thats not taking anything away from sslp, i thought it was dope. i just thought grodt was a little better.
pz!
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As time passes by, GRODT drop's in rank ,IMO
don't really have alot of reply value to me....
A true classic stand's the test of time.
(Check Em's stuff, That went stale real quick zero replay value & played disses that no longer hold any weight)
I'd put these 3 over GRODT easy.
Illmatic
It Was Written
Stillmatic
Word, them 3 are without doubt better albums than GRODT but 50s debut was one of the best recent album considered a debut.
I agree about alot of eminems material getting played out quick too but grodt>>>sslp as a opening album and illmatic shits on both. It was written and stillmatic are both better than them too.
So i agree with your post! 8)
pz!
i heavily disagree; SSLP beats both
So we heavily agree to heavily disgaree ;)
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oh and just to make another point clear, eminem as a rapper >>>> 50 cent, without doubt, ...
but...that dont mean...the weaker person cannot put out something thats much better than the greater rapper.
FOR EXAMPLE...
Game documentary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Encore... but we all know eminem on form is a much better rapper than game!
pz ;)
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ok i know i'll get karma drop for this...but here goes & for the record i'm also a nas fan but i have to say grodt is better than any nas album and even though power of the dollar was shelved it was a better debut than illmatic..
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'I could give a fuck about production who what album had better club bangers. 50 and Em are rappers abd I'll judge the albums based on the rapping. '
^^^
that right there is where you are lost. Yes rapping is what you judge a rapper on but this is MUSIC, rapping is part of it. Production on GRODT shits all over sslp if u want to go there.
If thats how u judge all music in all genres in general than just buy the accapellas because no need for anything else...but we both know its not just that which makes music great...or terrible...but just to clarify, im not taking anything away from rapping there because its a great art form if you can have a great flow and play with words BUT great rappers will make a great beat into a great song!..Well often if they're on form, so yes rapping is part of that but sometimes, just because you're the better rapper, does not automatically mean you will make the better music/album.
I judge musicians by their music, and rappers by their rapping. If it’s a rap album I look at the rap first, not the basic loops and simple drum programming. Both 50 and Eminem, and Dre for that matter, suck at making music. 50 is best at selling himself. Em is best at witty melodic rhymes, and Dre is best at stealing from 70s funk.
If any of these people actually composed music I’d judge the music, but when all you do is rhyme over someone else’s music I’ll judge the rapper’s performance. It’s like if I were to listen to two Jazz trumpeters that each released an album of Jazz standards. One trumpeter has a bunch of easy to listen to hits and plays passably while the other takes a bunch of obscure tracks and plays the shit out of them. The latter album will always be better to me.
Take the Illmatic acappelas and put them with the simplest most boring loops you can think of, then take the top ten hip hop productions you know and put the worst rapper over them. Nas rapping over fart sounds would a better album as far as I’m concerned.
I could listen to Doggystyle with much more enjoyment than I ever could Illmatic but Illmatic is on another plateau that Doggystyle cannot reach.
If you want to call the stuff which came out on 50s debut generic in terms of production which is not true for starters, than eminems album at the time it came out had an even more generic sound because alot of music had that sorta sound when it came out. Another thing, 50s debut album within hiphop circles is considered to have had a very impressive and stylish eastcoast sound for the time it was released. It basically was a fresh blueprint in how to make a hiphop album. Not saying its better or worse than previoius blueprints but when it came, it was fresh and something new at the time.
I’m not calling it generic. It is generic. Whether you want to admit that or not is up to you. In Da Club is every Dre production given out to other artists since after 2001. Whether it’s 50, Mary J Blige, Ice Cube, Xzibit, or the Rolling fucking Stones, it’s generic 2000s hip hop production. The production is all the exact same for all of these artists.
Note; production not composition. Most rap fans don’t know the difference. I’m just making myself clear about. I’m not saying you don’t know the difference.
SSLP’s production, the Bass brothers, was the opposite of generic. It was very distinct with regards to mainstream rap and had its own sound not commonplace in hip hop. It was also very unpolished and almost amateurish which distinguished it even more.
As for you saying about club bangers, thats part of rapping! He was making a club banger and it worked! Eminems always coming out with these shitty corny first single but 50 actually dropped a heated first single! In da club is an amazing club track...yes AMAZING and the production on it is top top class. Thats a beat that will get a club bouncing each time and everyone i knew who liked hiphop and did not loved the joint and the beat at the time which pretty much sums it all up for me.
At the time, you had to have a corny single to make a hit, push units etc and then 50 came fresh with an out of the box club banger that was brilliant.
So Nelly, Ja Rule, Cash Money, Luda were selling all those album with corny singles, not club tracks?
As for the being white part, please. Because he is white he has sold loads more than he should! At his peak, eminem was great BUT he has achieved alot more than he should have based on the fact he is white so people are more amazed that 'damn a white kid can rap like that' which gets him spins on radio stations he should not be getting spins on and gets props where others would not. So dont be playing the white card, because thats bullshit.
I’m not arguing that Em would have been as popular if he wasn’t white. I did say the opposite when I said if he was black and never became famous. I’m saying he never gets respected by certain black hip hop fans because he’s white. We all now his skin made him the huge star he's become.
Eminems album sounded a mix between what was coming out from dres music and detriots sound whereas 50 had a gangsta album record BUT if you think 50s album sounded like every other gangsta album coming out at the time you're deluded because firstly thats not true, the numbers simply prove that point and it took a different approach.
The numbers are partly because of Eminem and how big he was at the time and how closely associated 50 was with him. In pro wrestling the term is called getting a rub. The numbers are also just as much due to the guys image and his ability to sell it. He was put out brilliantly as “the real deal”. He had been shot. People were after him. He looked like a dangerous thug. You could sell the guy and he knew how to sell himself at same tme. That’s why Get Rich did so well while Restless did not. You take Xzibit, parade him around as Em’s new right hand, make a big budget video for Don’t Approach Me and treat Xzibit like he’s brand new on the scene and a real gangster with real guns and then let him try and sell that image and all of a sudden Restless goes 4 platinum.
50s album wasn’t saying anything that Jay or Nas albums of the late 90s and early 2000s were saying, lyrically and musically. But he had more promotion and again the Eminem rub.
Say what you want about the guy but between 99 and 2003 Eminem was far and away the biggest name in music and when he put his all behind a guy, meaning name dropping him every ten seconds and promoting him that guy becomes huge. Devil’s Night was like 2 or 3 platinum. What would that album have sold with out Em’s name on it?
And what Dre stuff of the time? Dre hadn’t released music in a while when SSLP dropped. And take Em out of the equation and the 6 platinum 2001 would have been lucky to go 3x. Make a video for Renegade and Blueprint triples in sales.
There is a reason why Em can drop a complete piece of shit like Encore and still go half diamond while 50 can combine every sale from every album he was on after Get Rich and still not reach a third of the success.
50 was a gimmick that ran dry while Em is a still a bonafide star like Michael Jackson. No matter how bad the follow up album gets they’ll still sell a lot more than they should.
You say u think 50 had generic bullshit production but was there not a time when you used to say you thought eminem was a better producer than dr dre?? lol, im not sure if that was you but if it was, that would maybe make your point of view a little more understandable.
I don’t remember ever saying that. I certainly don't hold that opinion. I really don’t think much of either as a producer. Dre at his best is the David Foster of hip hop. Fuck David Foster.
Trent Reznor, Rza, Jack White, Phil Spector, Rick Rubin, Brendan O’Brien. Those are great producers.
As for you listening to alot of 50 prior to his album coming out, well if u say so. I won't question that but regardless, 50 came correct on his debut as proved by both his numbers and the general approval the album gets within hiphop circles. (yes i know, numbers do not always mean great albums. For example - Encore, absolute shit)
I post on a hip hop forum and have for years. You doubt whether or not I knew of 50 before he signed with Shady? Those mixtapes were everywhere. How To Rob was famous on almost every forum I knew of.
As for you saying the best thing about grodt was eminems verse, that pretty much sums up your arguement for me. His verse was very good BUT there was a whole bunch of things to come out of that album which was MUCH better than that verse! ...
And I don’t even like the verse.
I know u a big eminem fan or seem to be by mostly being in any thread with his name mentioned and ive been here for years so ive read alot of your shit and usually whether i agree or don't, you usually have a good way of presenting your view but the way you just described 50 and eminem in this, almost sounds like a clueless attempt at a groupie tryna spit 'knowledge'...which we both know u aint, but some of stuff you wrote in that was laughable to me.
Maybe when I was 17 everything you said here would be true. But that was almost ten years ago.
In the grand scheme of things I’m not a big Eminem fan. I have no plans on buying his next album. I have no desire to see him live if he tours. I barely listen to his old music. He is not on my top 100 artists list. At his best he was very funny (frat humor), very witty, and he rapped very musically (which was much better than his shitty sing songy musical raps of more recent years).
But every time Em attempted to be serious or say something real he fell very short when I look back at it. Sure when Stan came out and I was 18 I thought it was genius. But I’m not 18 anymore. His serious songs are too Paul Haggis for me. They leave very little to the imagination and are way too literal, like most rap, but more importantly I never bought or felt his emotions either.
2pac’s body of work suffered from a lot of the same shit but in the end it was much tighter and more believable. He conveyed himself much better than Em, and that’s why Tupac would easily get a spot on my top 100.
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'I could give a fuck about production who what album had better club bangers. 50 and Em are rappers abd I'll judge the albums based on the rapping. '
^^^
that right there is where you are lost. Yes rapping is what you judge a rapper on but this is MUSIC, rapping is part of it. Production on GRODT shits all over sslp if u want to go there.
If thats how u judge all music in all genres in general than just buy the accapellas because no need for anything else...but we both know its not just that which makes music great...or terrible...but just to clarify, im not taking anything away from rapping there because its a great art form if you can have a great flow and play with words BUT great rappers will make a great beat into a great song!..Well often if they're on form, so yes rapping is part of that but sometimes, just because you're the better rapper, does not automatically mean you will make the better music/album.
I judge musicians by their music, and rappers by their rapping. If it’s a rap album I look at the rap first, not the basic loops and simple drum programming. Both 50 and Eminem, and Dre for that matter, suck at making music. 50 is best at selling himself. Em is best at witty melodic rhymes, and Dre is best at stealing from 70s funk.
If any of these people actually composed music I’d judge the music, but when all you do is rhyme over someone else’s music I’ll judge the rapper’s performance. It’s like if I were to listen to two Jazz trumpeters that each released an album of Jazz standards. One trumpeter has a bunch of easy to listen to hits and plays passably while the other takes a bunch of obscure tracks and plays the shit out of them. The latter album will always be better to me.
Take the Illmatic acappelas and put them with the simplest most boring loops you can think of, then take the top ten hip hop productions you know and put the worst rapper over them. Nas rapping over fart sounds would a better album as far as I’m concerned.
I could listen to Doggystyle with much more enjoyment than I ever could Illmatic but Illmatic is on another plateau that Doggystyle cannot reach.
If you want to call the stuff which came out on 50s debut generic in terms of production which is not true for starters, than eminems album at the time it came out had an even more generic sound because alot of music had that sorta sound when it came out. Another thing, 50s debut album within hiphop circles is considered to have had a very impressive and stylish eastcoast sound for the time it was released. It basically was a fresh blueprint in how to make a hiphop album. Not saying its better or worse than previoius blueprints but when it came, it was fresh and something new at the time.
I’m not calling it generic. It is generic. Whether you want to admit that or not is up to you. In Da Club is every Dre production given out to other artists since after 2001. Whether it’s 50, Mary J Blige, Ice Cube, Xzibit, or the Rolling fucking Stones, it’s generic 2000s hip hop production. The production is all the exact same for all of these artists.
Note; production not composition. Most rap fans don’t know the difference. I’m just making myself clear about. I’m not saying you don’t know the difference.
SSLP’s production, the Bass brothers, was the opposite of generic. It was very distinct with regards to mainstream rap and had its own sound not commonplace in hip hop. It was also very unpolished and almost amateurish which distinguished it even more.
As for you saying about club bangers, thats part of rapping! He was making a club banger and it worked! Eminems always coming out with these shitty corny first single but 50 actually dropped a heated first single! In da club is an amazing club track...yes AMAZING and the production on it is top top class. Thats a beat that will get a club bouncing each time and everyone i knew who liked hiphop and did not loved the joint and the beat at the time which pretty much sums it all up for me.
At the time, you had to have a corny single to make a hit, push units etc and then 50 came fresh with an out of the box club banger that was brilliant.
So Nelly, Ja Rule, Cash Money, Luda were selling all those album with corny singles, not club tracks?
As for the being white part, please. Because he is white he has sold loads more than he should! At his peak, eminem was great BUT he has achieved alot more than he should have based on the fact he is white so people are more amazed that 'damn a white kid can rap like that' which gets him spins on radio stations he should not be getting spins on and gets props where others would not. So dont be playing the white card, because thats bullshit.
I’m not arguing that Em would have been as popular if he wasn’t white. I did say the opposite when I said if he was black and never became famous. I’m saying he never gets respected by certain black hip hop fans because he’s white. We all now his skin made him the huge star he's become.
Eminems album sounded a mix between what was coming out from dres music and detriots sound whereas 50 had a gangsta album record BUT if you think 50s album sounded like every other gangsta album coming out at the time you're deluded because firstly thats not true, the numbers simply prove that point and it took a different approach.
The numbers are partly because of Eminem and how big he was at the time and how closely associated 50 was with him. In pro wrestling the term is called getting a rub. The numbers are also just as much due to the guys image and his ability to sell it. He was put out brilliantly as “the real deal”. He had been shot. People were after him. He looked like a dangerous thug. You could sell the guy and he knew how to sell himself at same tme. That’s why Get Rich did so well while Restless did not. You take Xzibit, parade him around as Em’s new right hand, make a big budget video for Don’t Approach Me and treat Xzibit like he’s brand new on the scene and a real gangster with real guns and then let him try and sell that image and all of a sudden Restless goes 4 platinum.
50s album wasn’t saying anything that Jay or Nas albums of the late 90s and early 2000s were saying, lyrically and musically. But he had more promotion and again the Eminem rub.
Say what you want about the guy but between 99 and 2003 Eminem was far and away the biggest name in music and when he put his all behind a guy, meaning name dropping him every ten seconds and promoting him that guy becomes huge. Devil’s Night was like 2 or 3 platinum. What would that album have sold with out Em’s name on it?
And what Dre stuff of the time? Dre hadn’t released music in a while when SSLP dropped. And take Em out of the equation and the 6 platinum 2001 would have been lucky to go 3x. Make a video for Renegade and Blueprint triples in sales.
There is a reason why Em can drop a complete piece of shit like Encore and still go half diamond while 50 can combine every sale from every album he was on after Get Rich and still not reach a third of the success.
50 was a gimmick that ran dry while Em is a still a bonafide star like Michael Jackson. No matter how bad the follow up album gets they’ll still sell a lot more than they should.
You say u think 50 had generic bullshit production but was there not a time when you used to say you thought eminem was a better producer than dr dre?? lol, im not sure if that was you but if it was, that would maybe make your point of view a little more understandable.
I don’t remember ever saying that. I certainly don't hold that opinion. I really don’t think much of either as a producer. Dre at his best is the David Foster of hip hop. Fuck David Foster.
Trent Reznor, Rza, Jack White, Phil Spector, Rick Rubin, Brendan O’Brien. Those are great producers.
As for you listening to alot of 50 prior to his album coming out, well if u say so. I won't question that but regardless, 50 came correct on his debut as proved by both his numbers and the general approval the album gets within hiphop circles. (yes i know, numbers do not always mean great albums. For example - Encore, absolute shit)
I post on a hip hop forum and have for years. You doubt whether or not I knew of 50 before he signed with Shady? Those mixtapes were everywhere. How To Rob was famous on almost every forum I knew of.
As for you saying the best thing about grodt was eminems verse, that pretty much sums up your arguement for me. His verse was very good BUT there was a whole bunch of things to come out of that album which was MUCH better than that verse! ...
And I don’t even like the verse.
I know u a big eminem fan or seem to be by mostly being in any thread with his name mentioned and ive been here for years so ive read alot of your shit and usually whether i agree or don't, you usually have a good way of presenting your view but the way you just described 50 and eminem in this, almost sounds like a clueless attempt at a groupie tryna spit 'knowledge'...which we both know u aint, but some of stuff you wrote in that was laughable to me.
Maybe when I was 17 everything you said here would be true. But that was almost ten years ago.
In the grand scheme of things I’m not a big Eminem fan. I have no plans on buying his next album. I have no desire to see him live if he tours. I barely listen to his old music. He is not on my top 100 artists list. At his best he was very funny (frat humor), very witty, and he rapped very musically (which was much better than his shitty sing songy musical raps of more recent years).
But every time Em attempted to be serious or say something real he fell very short when I look back at it. Sure when Stan came out and I was 18 I thought it was genius. But I’m not 18 anymore. His serious songs are too Paul Haggis for me. They leave very little to the imagination and are way too literal, like most rap, but more importantly I never bought or felt his emotions either.
2pac’s body of work suffered from a lot of the same shit but in the end it was much tighter and more believable. He conveyed himself much better than Em, and that’s why Tupac would easily get a spot on my top 100.
Okay i know u broke down my post into different sections but im going to just drop this reply as one without breaking it down into answering your questions in seperate sections because im gonna fuck up the post most likely lol
Anyway...
Dre aint having the best of times recently and he does sample shit from time to time and has known to sample alot in the past BUT he does have an amazing ear for music and has produced some great stuff and has even made samples BETTER. But not all his stuff is samples and he does produce original music, some of which is great. Dre is respected within music ranks as one of the best living producers and gets his props from ALL circles and anyone who knows about production and rightly so. He is the main stay of all the success of all these big names like snoop to xzibit to eminem to 50 to game etc and has made alot of hits for people past and present and also groups like NWA and so on.
Yes he has been highly influenced by 70's funk music but everything you hear, old and new is influenced by something else. At times you will hear a track and think 'oh this sounds like its been influenced by 'x' ' yet when the beat was made, it may have not even come into a producers thoughts, its just your influences are naturally going to have some sort of influence on how you create music. Dre is a living great when it comes to production.
If by 2001 you mean the album, then dre gave 50cent something completely different to the sound he was going for in that album. Yes it was still a hiphop beat but it is a classic beat and you can argue all you want whether its generic or not but the fact is the majority of people loved it! Its a certified classic beat and it is what made 50cent more so than anything else. Dres music has changed alot since 2001 came out, he has gone into different directions, sometimes more dynamic and now to a more simple style which i aint feeling right now but at the end of the day, its still hiphop beats.
Nelly/jarule really only made tracks for women. Mostly women dug there shit with some men now and again when they came with something different BUT in general, there shit was never really regarded hiphop in its essence or atleast the form we cam up listening. Ja rule never ever really pushed crazy units either and he was the more 'rapping' orientated of the two.
Ludacris is an amazing rapper, now he was making clubs tracks but he was amazingly witty with his rhymes too...but again, his club tracks had a following BUT nothing to push units like crazy. Cash money never really pushed anything major either. It was all about the corny wack first single eminem style at the time. Once in a while you get a good one. Now its all about the club track for the first single...again, once in a while you get a good one.
Okay so we both agree on the eminem thing, my bad.
Yes 50 sold partly because of the affiliation to eminem but it was not the main reason nor the only reason he sole. I know you said 'partly' but as you progress you make it sound like it was because of eminem 50 sold but that is not true at all. If anyone could lay a claim to saying it was because of him he sold, it would be dr dre. Dre was the man behind in the club and 50 rode it right at the time. Nobody was pushing units like eminem at the time nor was there any major club hits coming from a nigga on a regular at the time until this came through and blew the fuck up! Everyone i knew liked it, people who did not even like hiphop were loving the joint! Go into a club now and if you aint heard the joint for a while, it still bangs. The claps were fresh at the time and the music was not complicated but great.
If eminem was the reason 50 sold, then cheers should have sold more. Thats were the arguement goes flat because eminem pushed obie harder but 50 has momentum, he has wanksta, the 9 shots story (which also helped his sales, without doubt) and he had aftermath and shady as we both agree on BUT he delivered, he lived up to his hype with the first single. After that, success was guarenteed.
The reason encore sold so good was because he already dropped albums like MMLP and eminem show (which i was not a fan of, but i know some people like alot) and 8 mile, had his movie and like you say, is a BONAFIDE star so it was natural encore would sell regardless of quality.
Its like when 50cent dropped massacre and grodt ost, they both sold so well because of past efforts or links but when curtis came out, people had enough of 50 because the blueprint he helped create with dre for grodt for modern gangsta rap hiphop, he never followed it on his very next album. Infact he went the jarule way for his second album, the complete contradiction of his marketing.
So i take it you're coming close to 27? I am 24, feel old lol but i can dig your post more now because atleast you explain yourself better as have i, so while we disagree, i can respect your opinion like i have mine. ;-)
Pz!
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Just a few clarifications
I said post 2001 production; Mary J's Family Affair. Xzibit's X. Shit like that. The production in songs like that are identical to the In Da Club production.
I never said he had a bad ear. I called him David Foster. Foster has amazing talent and a super great ear. I just don't care for his style.
For the record, Dre has never actually sampled anything. From day one he was working with studio musicians that would replay the music and then it would be looped. It is true that some, not much of the better stuff, was original compositions composed by Storch or Elizondo and Dre had the ear to say it sounded good. But everything from G Thang to Xplosive was recreated from old songs and while Dre's version may sound better to you, they sound worse to my ear. Which is where a lot of my resentment towards him comes from.
Nelly obviously had monster sales but no he wasn't gangsta rap. He was club rap. Ja Rule had back to back triple platinum albums. Very good for any rap artist. I can't think of too many that have that. Luda did it also, and then followed it up with back to back to back double platinum. As for Cash Money, 400 Degreez went 4 platinum. That's pretty big numbers there. And the point is they were doing it with out corny singles. Who exactly was making money with corny singles other than Em?
But let me put this argument to rest once and for all like I did back in 03 when 50 first got huge. I forgot about all the arguments I used to raise that left everyone in my neighborhood (black neighborhood fyi) with out any reasonable comeback. It was a gangster rapper who blew up and was as big as 50. He was pegged as the real deal and sold as such, and he played to the image perfectly. He was selling 4 platinum followed by 3 platinum, followed by 6 platinum and then 3 platinum again. And he did this all during the height of the Eminem era. DMX, which is what 50 was the updated version of. As recently as two years before 50 D was releasing smash club hits and telling dark street tales and was a star, but for some reason by 2003 he was pretty much forgotten by the mainstream media.
NWA was first. The gangster rappers sold as real thugs. That was replaced by one of the members Dre, with Snoop in the early 90s. Then the mantle fell to Tupac and the deceased Biggie Smalls, and then DMX, and then 50. Now 50 is done and I'll bet with in the next two years another rapper from the streets will emerge with an updated sound and an image that seems more real to white america and he'll sell the same huge numbers all the previous artists did.
Obie was never one of those guys and could never sell himself like 50 could. Royce if given Renegade and signed to Shady may have been a lot biger than any other Shady camp member but again 50 was sold on image as much as on Eminem spotlight. Basically what I mean is if in 2003 50 Cent released the exact same album with Bad Boy records or Ruff Ryders it would have been just another album. Getting all the mainstream promotion as Eminem's new gangster was as much a reason for his success as the image. DMX did it alone and that's why he sold more in the long run. That being said 50 could re-invent himself and sell again but the old 50 is dead.
Sadly I'll be 27 this November. I feel like I'm still 19 in many regards, but every birthday of the last few years the idea that I'm closer to 30 than 20 is very depressing. I don't even want to think what 30 will feel like.
We'll have to agree to disagree on a lot of things. Much of where our musical roads take us I think has to do with race. You're black, I'm white. When I "outgrew" hip hop it was because I was drawn to all these white artists that covered much of the same ideas the best hip hop did and with such a hard sound, but with much more sophistication and musical talent that it was easy for me to drop rap altogether by my mid 20s. There simply aren't may black "rock" artists. 90% of the socially aware or intelligent black artists have a much softer soul sound and can't give the energy hip hop gives. Jimi Hendrix of course is a huge exception. I'd also greatly recommend Bad Brains to you.
The point is we are naturally drawn to what we consider ourselves a part of, and for me at 20 that was being streetwise but it was also seeing it from a white perspective.
Eminem couldn't give me this;
I had skin like leather and the diamond-hard look of a cobra
I was born blue and weathered but I burst just like a supernova
I could walk like Brando right into the sun
Then dance just like a Casanova
With my blackjack and jacket and hair slicked sweet
Silver star studs on my duds like a Harley in heat
When I strut down the street I could hear its heartbeat
The sisters fell back and said "Don't that man look pretty"
The cripple on the corner cried out "Nickels for your pity"
Them gasoline boys downtown sure talk gritty
It's so hard to be a saint in the city
I was the king of the alley, mama, I could talk some trash
I was the prince of the paupers crowned downtown at the beggar's bash
I was the pimp's main prophet I kept everything cool
Just a backstreet gambler with the luck to lose
And when the heat came down it was left on the ground
The devil appeared like Jesus through the steam in the street
Showin' me a hand I knew even the cops couldn't beat
I felt his hot breath on my neck as I dove into the heat
It's so hard to be a saint when you're just a boy out on the street
And the sages of the subway sit just like the living dead
As the tracks clack out the rhythm their eyes fixed straight ahead
They ride the line of balance and hold on by just a thread
But it's too hot in these tunnels you can get hit up by the heat
You get up to get out at your next stop but they push you back down in your seat
Your heart starts beatin' faster as you struggle to your feet
Then you're outa that hole and back up on the street
And them South Side sisters sure look pretty
The cripple on the corner cries out "Nickels for your pity"
And them downtown boys sure talk gritty
It's so hard to be a saint in the city
And that spoke to me more than any black gangster rapper or Slim Shady ever could. Musically, everything changed for me when I heard that song.
I remember that same year being 20 and reading this verse;
Eighth Avenue sailors in satin shirts whisper in the air
Some storefront incarnation of Maria, she's puttin' on me the stare
and Bronx's best apostle stands with his hand on his own hardware
Everything stops, you hear five, quick shots, the cops come up for air
And now the whiz-bang gang from uptown, they're shootin' up the street
And that cat from the Bronx starts lettin' loose
but he gets blown right off his feet
And some kid comes blastin' round the corner but a cop puts him right away
He lays on the street holding his leg screaming something in Spanish
Still breathing when I walked away
And somebody said "Hey man did you see that? His body hit the street with such a beautiful thud"
I wonder what the dude was sayin' or was he just lost in the flood?
Hey man, did you see that, those poor cats are sure messed up
I wonder what they were gettin' into, or were they just lost in the flood?
And thinking I could see Nas rapping it word for word and fitting into Illmatic or It Was Written perfectly, and not only was these songs written long before Illmatic, they were written while Nas was still in his mother's womb back in '73.
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I think Will Smith has 5 albums better than GRODT and I don't even know if he has 5 albums. So of course Nas does.
This post made me lol
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I'll stick to 3. The first 3 you said.
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yea, i cant believe i forgot
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zYaFP45lGWM/RyILK-VO6vI/AAAAAAAAAow/e1P8RrUYC0M/s320/nas+lost+tapes.jpg)
possibly the 2nd or 3rd best after ill
I challenge people to find better Unreleased compilation, that is fire.
I know of a better unreleased compilation, and that's the one from Royce 5'9" that was floating around back in early 01', that one had bangers up and down, tracks like "Money", "The Throne Is Mine", "Soldier", that album was sick, way better than anything he every released.
...but anyway, yeah, I agree Nas 3 albums better than GRODT, with Hip Hop Is Dead falling shortly behind GRODT
1. Illmatic
2. GOD'S SON (BIG TIME UNDER-RATED NAS ALBUM!!!.... very touching album, deeply personal, "Dance With Mama", "Thug's Mansion" with Pac, and so on, and track 4 Last Real Nigga Alive he destroys all New York rappers!)
3. Stillmatic
------------------------
Get Rich Or Die Trying
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GRODT was ass. It was ass in 2003. It is ass in 2009. You people continue to belittle yourselves and you musical tastes by acting like that album is classic. If GRODT is a classic, than so are my pubes.
When that album came out I listened to it alot for like half a year. Now I can't stand the lack of substance in the lyrics. All I can enjoy are the beats, and they are ALMOST but not quite enough to make me want to listen to any song off that album again.
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bump for Lyrical G.
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bump for Lyrical G.
Ah props, this was the thread lol 8)
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this is some crazy shit, i mean know 50 is hated & all.
but Hip Hop Is Dead over GRODT? ???
Illmatic, It Was Written & Stillmatic (maybe).
GRODT is a modern day classic, hate him or love him.
the beats were unreal, 50 was actually beast on the songs; hard to knock.
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Just a few clarifications
I said post 2001 production; Mary J's Family Affair. Xzibit's X. Shit like that. The production in songs like that are identical to the In Da Club production.
I never said he had a bad ear. I called him David Foster. Foster has amazing talent and a super great ear. I just don't care for his style.
For the record, Dre has never actually sampled anything. From day one he was working with studio musicians that would replay the music and then it would be looped. It is true that some, not much of the better stuff, was original compositions composed by Storch or Elizondo and Dre had the ear to say it sounded good. But everything from G Thang to Xplosive was recreated from old songs and while Dre's version may sound better to you, they sound worse to my ear. Which is where a lot of my resentment towards him comes from.
Nelly obviously had monster sales but no he wasn't gangsta rap. He was club rap. Ja Rule had back to back triple platinum albums. Very good for any rap artist. I can't think of too many that have that. Luda did it also, and then followed it up with back to back to back double platinum. As for Cash Money, 400 Degreez went 4 platinum. That's pretty big numbers there. And the point is they were doing it with out corny singles. Who exactly was making money with corny singles other than Em?
But let me put this argument to rest once and for all like I did back in 03 when 50 first got huge. I forgot about all the arguments I used to raise that left everyone in my neighborhood (black neighborhood fyi) with out any reasonable comeback. It was a gangster rapper who blew up and was as big as 50. He was pegged as the real deal and sold as such, and he played to the image perfectly. He was selling 4 platinum followed by 3 platinum, followed by 6 platinum and then 3 platinum again. And he did this all during the height of the Eminem era. DMX, which is what 50 was the updated version of. As recently as two years before 50 D was releasing smash club hits and telling dark street tales and was a star, but for some reason by 2003 he was pretty much forgotten by the mainstream media.
NWA was first. The gangster rappers sold as real thugs. That was replaced by one of the members Dre, with Snoop in the early 90s. Then the mantle fell to Tupac and the deceased Biggie Smalls, and then DMX, and then 50. Now 50 is done and I'll bet with in the next two years another rapper from the streets will emerge with an updated sound and an image that seems more real to white america and he'll sell the same huge numbers all the previous artists did.
Obie was never one of those guys and could never sell himself like 50 could. Royce if given Renegade and signed to Shady may have been a lot biger than any other Shady camp member but again 50 was sold on image as much as on Eminem spotlight. Basically what I mean is if in 2003 50 Cent released the exact same album with Bad Boy records or Ruff Ryders it would have been just another album. Getting all the mainstream promotion as Eminem's new gangster was as much a reason for his success as the image. DMX did it alone and that's why he sold more in the long run. That being said 50 could re-invent himself and sell again but the old 50 is dead.
Sadly I'll be 27 this November. I feel like I'm still 19 in many regards, but every birthday of the last few years the idea that I'm closer to 30 than 20 is very depressing. I don't even want to think what 30 will feel like.
We'll have to agree to disagree on a lot of things. Much of where our musical roads take us I think has to do with race. You're black, I'm white. When I "outgrew" hip hop it was because I was drawn to all these white artists that covered much of the same ideas the best hip hop did and with such a hard sound, but with much more sophistication and musical talent that it was easy for me to drop rap altogether by my mid 20s. There simply aren't may black "rock" artists. 90% of the socially aware or intelligent black artists have a much softer soul sound and can't give the energy hip hop gives. Jimi Hendrix of course is a huge exception. I'd also greatly recommend Bad Brains to you.
The point is we are naturally drawn to what we consider ourselves a part of, and for me at 20 that was being streetwise but it was also seeing it from a white perspective.
Eminem couldn't give me this;
I had skin like leather and the diamond-hard look of a cobra
I was born blue and weathered but I burst just like a supernova
I could walk like Brando right into the sun
Then dance just like a Casanova
With my blackjack and jacket and hair slicked sweet
Silver star studs on my duds like a Harley in heat
When I strut down the street I could hear its heartbeat
The sisters fell back and said "Don't that man look pretty"
The cripple on the corner cried out "Nickels for your pity"
Them gasoline boys downtown sure talk gritty
It's so hard to be a saint in the city
I was the king of the alley, mama, I could talk some trash
I was the prince of the paupers crowned downtown at the beggar's bash
I was the pimp's main prophet I kept everything cool
Just a backstreet gambler with the luck to lose
And when the heat came down it was left on the ground
The devil appeared like Jesus through the steam in the street
Showin' me a hand I knew even the cops couldn't beat
I felt his hot breath on my neck as I dove into the heat
It's so hard to be a saint when you're just a boy out on the street
And the sages of the subway sit just like the living dead
As the tracks clack out the rhythm their eyes fixed straight ahead
They ride the line of balance and hold on by just a thread
But it's too hot in these tunnels you can get hit up by the heat
You get up to get out at your next stop but they push you back down in your seat
Your heart starts beatin' faster as you struggle to your feet
Then you're outa that hole and back up on the street
And them South Side sisters sure look pretty
The cripple on the corner cries out "Nickels for your pity"
And them downtown boys sure talk gritty
It's so hard to be a saint in the city
And that spoke to me more than any black gangster rapper or Slim Shady ever could. Musically, everything changed for me when I heard that song.
I remember that same year being 20 and reading this verse;
Eighth Avenue sailors in satin shirts whisper in the air
Some storefront incarnation of Maria, she's puttin' on me the stare
and Bronx's best apostle stands with his hand on his own hardware
Everything stops, you hear five, quick shots, the cops come up for air
And now the whiz-bang gang from uptown, they're shootin' up the street
And that cat from the Bronx starts lettin' loose
but he gets blown right off his feet
And some kid comes blastin' round the corner but a cop puts him right away
He lays on the street holding his leg screaming something in Spanish
Still breathing when I walked away
And somebody said "Hey man did you see that? His body hit the street with such a beautiful thud"
I wonder what the dude was sayin' or was he just lost in the flood?
Hey man, did you see that, those poor cats are sure messed up
I wonder what they were gettin' into, or were they just lost in the flood?
And thinking I could see Nas rapping it word for word and fitting into Illmatic or It Was Written perfectly, and not only was these songs written long before Illmatic, they were written while Nas was still in his mother's womb back in '73.
Just to let you know, when you said in da club is generic (which i still disagree with by the way lol) and you say it sounds like family affairs and xzibits 'x'...funny thing is as much as i thought x was a nice opening for xzibit at the time, i actualy thought the sound of that was pretty generic at the time. So basically if we both thought in da club and x sounded similar, we would actually agree on this BUT i dont agree with x sounding like in da club.
What they do have in common is the high notes on the piano sort of thing, if u know what i mean BUT x has a very strong westcoast/storch sound imo whereas in da club sound alot more universal and celebration style music, abit more eastcoast and more 'filled'...like you have the claps which were fresh at the time and it sounded 'strong' for a club joint. Like it sounded like a joint on steriods...maybe thats why it sounded so well with 50.
While you do not like in da club (right?) and i think its an absolutely bangin club joint, one thing is fair to say that the joint will go down as one of the best modern day club classic whether we both like it or not. Music that alot of people feel or vibe to or can get people up to, you cannot really hate it on it whether we like it or not or whether are music ear listens to things different or not.
Family affair by the way when it came out while it was not exactly the freshest sounding joint in terms of 'new' production is was really an ear catcher. Very catchy and sweet vibe joint. I can agree that in da club was possibly in some ways similar to that so no arguements there but again, i dont think it sounds exactly like that!
Another thing about dre and his piano men and so on, they do make music sometimes with dre NOT even being the room, thats how the piano melody for real slim shady was made so they do play a big part in his production team i completely agree BUT they are not the same without dre. Dre gives them there credit for what they do (usually atleast lol) and while they do create music and he will say what sounds good and what does not, he does direct them, tell them the sound he is going for etc, like even humming the music at times or playing it in an amatuer way and then the piano 'proffesionals' will try and get this sound out in a proper way for dre to put it all together. So while we should not forget the impact his team have on his beats, dre is the man who gets it going imo. I dont wanna sound like a dre groupie but he IS one of the best living producers on the planet and is the best within hiphop. When you have detox on the most anticipated list with some other greats fro other genres, you already know u have achieved your status as one of the best to do it imo.
Its dope having a varied music taste, i like alot of shit away from hiphop now, im 24, like you i grew up and while i wouldnt say i 'grew out/older' than hiphop, i would say i just expanded my ear with time and i its interesting you mention soul music, because i like alot of that shit. It just alot of newer hiphop cats do no interest me but i do still give my respect for someone like chamillionaire who dropped ultimate victory. If eminem spitted some of the lyrics he did on that, people would be going wow etc but because its chamillionaire, he hardly gets exposure for it. Dude is very talented and can make hits too...Not saying he is a great or anything, but just saying, that still to this day there are new cats who can make music and lyrics which are great but alot of people miss out on it...because dude is not gonna get an attention of people who would only listen it if dude was white or affiliated to a dre or something or get his props in general. But as much as having a varied ear is dope, you also gotta have an ear to hear dope music imo. Like you mentioned ludacris in another post, dude CAN make spit some great lyrics. You dropped lyrics in your previous post and thats dope but i never drop lyrics like that because as good as lyrics can sound on paper, its gotta sound good when it is said on over whatever instrumental it is getting played over. For example i could drop some lyrics from luda in the year 2007 or 2008 which on paper would sound great! And this when hiphop is dying like rock n roll in general had done already.
See you say u dropped hiphop for more sophisticated and 'talented' white artists but most of these rock artists are just like hiphop cats, only thats there niche whereas hiphop is usually the space for regular black cats apart from a few within both hiphop and rock who actually have immense talent and know what they're doing in there genre of music and go with a direction and class about the music. Even jay-z who im not the biggest fan of is gifted with a pen!
I do agree with you that being black and white, we will possibly at times choose different music to which we identify/connect with more but that does not mean what you're listening is more gifted/sophisticated that what a black cat is listening or wise versa because you will find that there are an amazing amound of producers and artists still black who are immensely talented and possibly more versatile than their white counterparts but thats just opinions.
One thing you did contradict yourself on was you said 50 sold because of eminem which is partly true but more not not true because there were bigger factors which made him sell. You also said the reason obie never sold was because he did not know how to sell himself whereas 50cent did, which is basically a contradiction of saying 50 sold because of eminem.
Obie was pushed harder than 50 at the time he got released or just as much, he had dre beats on his album, he was on shady records and had an eminem lead single but he never sold, he hardly went platinum!
50 went the right way, he went with the dre lead track and it was HUGE! it was not even a gangsta rap song, it was just a celebration joint, just aimed at everyone! Not just hiphop cats, or women or anyone, anyone could have liked that song and alot of random people who did not even like hiphop like that joint which is why 50 sold so much. It was not the eminem factor.
The point u raised about dmx im not really following, people always come and go within music, one minute you're hot the next you aint. DMX was basically turning into an actor and had way too many other incidents on his record at that stage, dude was a known crackhead too lol...people started moving past him and like you say, someone would eventually fill in them shoes even if in his own way. That happened to be 50 i guess if u say, but he would have blown up regardless of dmx being hot or not imo aslong as he still was as successful with his music. But ifs and buts are all hypothetical, fact is in da club WAS huge and grodt IS the biggest debut in a minute atleast i believe.
Just to say by the way, i meant new niggaz could not get released or do big numbers unless they had a corny single (track for the women) at the time until 50 came and gave a new direction for hiphop with new singles. We can argue it all we want but it is true that 50 gave new momentum/fuel to hiphop with his single and suddenly young black artists were like, they we can drop a club track and maybe get a release! I remember alot of people complaining that if your song was not aimed at women, it would not get released. Thats basically was nelly and ja rule were doing and while that shit is not for me, i dont hate them for it because with them doing there thing, it would have opened up doors for people of that type of music and kept poeple like eminem and ludacris hot instead of them having to 'try to hard' because suddenly ja rule and nelly are outta the equation when 50 drops and now eminem/snoop and cats like them suddenly have to branch out, be different lol.
So we disagree but i think we also agree on somethings, just in different ways.
This topic may have gone wayyy off topic at times by the way, but im just dropping my thoughts ;-)
By the way, i'll be 25 in november, haha, thats half of 50! :o
I wish i was still 18!
pz!
ps, just remember, i doubt we would have had an eminem, snoop, and alot of hits from general people and great hiphop music if it was not for dre and his influence ;-)
pz!
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this is some crazy shit, i mean know 50 is hated & all.
but Hip Hop Is Dead over GRODT? ???
Illmatic, It Was Written & Stillmatic (maybe).
GRODT is a modern day classic, hate him or love him.
the beats were unreal, 50 was actually beast on the songs; hard to knock.
Personally i dont think hiphop is dead is better than grodt and i know nas is a much much better artist than 50 will ever be but the three other albums u mentioned are imo definately better albums ;-)
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Just to let you know, when you said in da club is generic (which i still disagree with by the way lol) and you say it sounds like family affairs and xzibits 'x'...funny thing is as much as i thought x was a nice opening for xzibit at the time, i actualy thought the sound of that was pretty generic at the time. So basically if we both thought in da club and x sounded similar, we would actually agree on this BUT i dont agree with x sounding like in da club.
What they do have in common is the high notes on the piano sort of thing, if u know what i mean BUT x has a very strong westcoast/storch sound imo whereas in da club sound alot more universal and celebration style music, abit more eastcoast and more 'filled'...like you have the claps which were fresh at the time and it sounded 'strong' for a club joint. Like it sounded like a joint on steriods...maybe thats why it sounded so well with 50.
While you do not like in da club (right?) and i think its an absolutely bangin club joint, one thing is fair to say that the joint will go down as one of the best modern day club classic whether we both like it or not. Music that alot of people feel or vibe to or can get people up to, you cannot really hate it on it whether we like it or not or whether are music ear listens to things different or not.
Family affair by the way when it came out while it was not exactly the freshest sounding joint in terms of 'new' production is was really an ear catcher. Very catchy and sweet vibe joint. I can agree that in da club was possibly in some ways similar to that so no arguements there but again, i dont think it sounds exactly like that!
I think you’re confusing what I mean by the same production. I don’t mean I confuse one song for another. The music on both X and In Da Club have very different compostions but the production is the same. Meaning they are both recorded the same way, both contain the same lifts and layouts. They both sound like they could have produced during the 2001 sessions with the other songs, like The Watcher or Still Dre. Listen to them. Both start out with a basic loop and a spoken intro while that same loop gets pumped in a new instrument playing the same music as the beat drops, then at about 3o to 40 seconds into the rap a new piece of music joins loop and disappears only to come back again in the chorus while the original loop fades in and out with the added instrument. And the high gloss production is in all of Dre’s modern tracks.
Here is an example of two very similar compositions with very different production;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgzo8O1trSE
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdTYcnUBADw
You can hear the difference in the bass levels, the recording style, the highlighted instruments. The productions are very different despite the music being written very similar.
Let me use Nirvana as another example. Nevermind was very polished compared to In Utero and both albums have the Louie Louie riff so I’ll show you two different productions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPQR-OsH0RQ
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psvCUWzecGo
See how Smells like teen spirit has full wall of sound with cleaner guitars and a vocal more at the forefront while Rape Me is a lot dirtier in vocal and instruments?
This is what I meant by Louie Louie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhM5k_EGzaQ
Another thing about dre and his piano men and so on, they do make music sometimes with dre NOT even being the room, thats how the piano melody for real slim shady was made so they do play a big part in his production team i completely agree BUT they are not the same without dre. Dre gives them there credit for what they do (usually atleast lol) and while they do create music and he will say what sounds good and what does not, he does direct them, tell them the sound he is going for etc, like even humming the music at times or playing it in an amatuer way and then the piano 'proffesionals' will try and get this sound out in a proper way for dre to put it all together. So while we should not forget the impact his team have on his beats, dre is the man who gets it going imo. I dont wanna sound like a dre groupie but he IS one of the best living producers on the planet and is the best within hiphop. When you have detox on the most anticipated list with some other greats fro other genres, you already know u have achieved your status as one of the best to do it imo.
I don’t expect Dre to be a composer. He isn’t. Like I said his very best stuff he did not hum, he took from older songs. List me your ten favourite Dre tracks and I’ll tell you how many are original.
Its dope having a varied music taste, i like alot of shit away from hiphop now, im 24, like you i grew up and while i wouldnt say i 'grew out/older' than hiphop, i would say i just expanded my ear with time and i its interesting you mention soul music, because i like alot of that shit. It just alot of newer hiphop cats do no interest me but i do still give my respect for someone like chamillionaire who dropped ultimate victory. If eminem spitted some of the lyrics he did on that, people would be going wow etc but because its chamillionaire, he hardly gets exposure for it. Dude is very talented and can make hits too...Not saying he is a great or anything, but just saying, that still to this day there are new cats who can make music and lyrics which are great but alot of people miss out on it...because dude is not gonna get an attention of people who would only listen it if dude was white or affiliated to a dre or something or get his props in general. But as much as having a varied ear is dope, you also gotta have an ear to hear dope music imo. Like you mentioned ludacris in another post, dude CAN make spit some great lyrics. You dropped lyrics in your previous post and thats dope but i never drop lyrics like that because as good as lyrics can sound on paper, its gotta sound good when it is said on over whatever instrumental it is getting played over. For example i could drop some lyrics from luda in the year 2007 or 2008 which on paper would sound great! And this when hiphop is dying like rock n roll in general had done already.
I didn’t drop the lyrics to show how good the songs are. I posted them to show the content of songs from 35 years ago. Of course I love the music and delivery behind those lyrics as well. Yet I usually prefer them performed live rather than recorded in a studio.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQqMwQ_5pqk
vs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BktOzc8m93U
since I posted Saint in the City I just remembered a perfect example of the same song with different productions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b23YRVtuecA
See you say u dropped hiphop for more sophisticated and 'talented' white artists but most of these rock artists are just like hiphop cats, only thats there niche whereas hiphop is usually the space for regular black cats apart from a few within both hiphop and rock who actually have immense talent and know what they're doing in there genre of music and go with a direction and class about the music. Even jay-z who im not the biggest fan of is gifted with a pen!
Here’s why I said more sophisticated; for one it’s more complex. Someone like Springsteen doesn’t spit three verses and a chorus over a simple loop that stays more or less the same for 4 minute. The other is a guy like Springsteen writes his music first on the piano, then writes words to go wit that music. Then he writes separate additions to that music for other members of the band, although there have been songs that the other members have came up with small additions themselves. Jay Z or Dre simply don’t have the talent to pull any of that off. And Bruce had no formal training or musical family. He was all self taught by the age of 21.
But most importantly I said sophisticated because rap often uses too many words and rappers write their songs so literally it leaves very little to the imagination. It’s all right there for you and if you missed it the first time it’s repeated. Not all rap. Acts like Outkast or Wu Tang are great exceptions. But far too much of rap.
Here’s a couple of tracks by Bruce. One more straight forward, one not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAB4vOkL6cE
Listen to the story of the song. The story of the music. The perspective of the narrator. The politics behind the story.
The second seems very simple but isn’t. Tell me what you think it’s about and I’ll tell you what it’s really about (not trying to be smug. It just isn’t possible to know the full meaning with out knowing the backstory)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk8VZgJkpeg
I know this may not be your kind of music, but if you’ll just bear with me you’ll better understand where I’m coming from.
I do agree with you that being black and white, we will possibly at times choose different music to which we identify/connect with more but that does not mean what you're listening is more gifted/sophisticated that what a black cat is listening or wise versa because you will find that there are an amazing amound of producers and artists still black who are immensely talented and possibly more versatile than their white counterparts but thats just opinions.
I never meant to say white is more anything than black. This a rap not being very sophisticated or versatile argument. The white part was just about relating to a topic or an issue. There are plenty of amazing black artists in my mp3 player. It’s just that most of them don’t have a hard sound. Hip hop does have that hard sound, but it suffers too much from hip hop being it’s only influence. Chuck D, who still puts out amazing songs, said that most new rap acts only have rap as their main influences, while the rap acts of his day had to take from all across the spectrum and put it together, which lead to many different sounds.
This is one of my favorite tracks of all time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjITD9LnwRY (the first minute is just the intro)
One thing you did contradict yourself on was you said 50 sold because of eminem which is partly true but more not not true because there were bigger factors which made him sell. You also said the reason obie never sold was because he did not know how to sell himself whereas 50cent did, which is basically a contradiction of saying 50 sold because of eminem.
I was trying to convey that if 50 was on Ruff Ryders, Bad Boy, or Roc he’d have flopped. It’s just something I believe. I can’t prove or disprove a hypothetical situations.
Obie was pushed harder than 50 at the time he got released or just as much, he had dre beats on his album, he was on shady records and had an eminem lead single but he never sold, he hardly went platinum!
While Get Rich was coming out I was seeing 50 on all the late night shows, doing huge press, and getting big budget videos. Obie’s Teeth video was obscure comedy, with a much lower budget for a campy video, and far less mainstream promotion. There is no denying that. The same amount of money was not spent to promote Obie.
Of course even if it was he still would have been seen 50 numbers.
50 went the right way, he went with the dre lead track and it was HUGE! it was not even a gangsta rap song, it was just a celebration joint, just aimed at everyone! Not just hiphop cats, or women or anyone, anyone could have liked that song and alot of random people who did not even like hiphop like that joint which is why 50 sold so much. It was not the eminem factor.
The first video starts off with a minute long story about how 50 is being manufactured by Em and Dre. Then it’s still very much about his thug image. Aimed at everyone means it could be covered by Rod Stewart. Can’t Touch This was aimed at everyone and that’s why it went diamond.
The point u raised about dmx im not really following, people always come and go within music, one minute you're hot the next you aint. DMX was basically turning into an actor and had way too many other incidents on his record at that stage, dude was a known crackhead too lol...people started moving past him and like you say, someone would eventually fill in them shoes even if in his own way. That happened to be 50 i guess if u say, but he would have blown up regardless of dmx being hot or not imo aslong as he still was as successful with his music. But ifs and buts are all hypothetical, fact is in da club WAS huge and grodt IS the biggest debut in a minute atleast i believe.
The point is simple. The blueprint you claim was created with 50 was not. It was an older blueprint used by many artists before him, and DMX was just the most recent one to do it and succeed. He sold himself as a super thug, released great street tracks and great club tracks, and had a tough guy image that could be sold.
I’m actually glad I remembered that argument because it got me listening to a lot of old DMX stuff again. Man was he good. I’ll take the first few DMX albums over most of what I’ve heard from rap this past decade. He really knew how to communicate on his tracks.
Just to say by the way, i meant new niggaz could not get released or do big numbers unless they had a corny single (track for the women) at the time until 50 came and gave a new direction for hiphop with new singles. We can argue it all we want but it is true that 50 gave new momentum/fuel to hiphop with his single and suddenly young black artists were like, they we can drop a club track and maybe get a release! I remember alot of people complaining that if your song was not aimed at women, it would not get released. Thats basically was nelly and ja rule were doing and while that shit is not for me, i dont hate them for it because with them doing there thing, it would have opened up doors for people of that type of music and kept poeple like eminem and ludacris hot instead of them having to 'try to hard' because suddenly ja rule and nelly are outta the equation when 50 drops and now eminem/snoop and cats like them suddenly have to branch out, be different lol.
DMX had been doing that, and so was the south. It was no secret that 50 sound kind of like the rappers from the south. No Limit was ding big numbers. Cash Money. Luda, and they were doing it with club tracks not aimed at women any more than In da Club was. Jay Z was doing the same thing with H to the Izzo. All of these guys were keeping a very street oriented image and making club tracks. Hip hop club songs were all over the place before 50, while 50, and after 50. I don’t know why you’re giving him all this credit with changing hip hop.
So we disagree but i think we also agree on somethings, just in different ways.
This topic may have gone wayyy off topic at times by the way, but im just dropping my thoughts ;-)
By the way, i'll be 25 in november, haha, thats half of 50! :o
I wish i was still 18!
pz!
ps, just remember, i doubt we would have had an eminem, snoop, and alot of hits from general people and great hiphop music if it was not for dre and his influence ;-)
pz!
I often wish I was 16 again. Simpler times.
I never doubted Dre’s influence on rap. He’s among the most influential for sure.
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^ you like the sonics version of louie louie better than the kingsmen
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im pretty lukewarm about that bowie cover, and i like him a lot
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Illmatic of course.
It Was Written.
Stillmatic
God's Son
and
Untitled
Get Rich or Die Tryin' is a dope album but it ain't on the same level with those albums I mentioned. Ok, GRODT might be better than God's Son... but still, Nas has at least 4 albums which are better. This is my opinion. Nas' albums are better lyrically and Illmatic has better production.
Does anyone agree?
Every Nas' album is better than GRODT. Even that Nastradamus bullshit.
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^ you like the sonics version of louie louie better than the kingsmen
No, but I really love the Sonics version though. The Kingsmen version just wasn't a good example of the riff because it wasn't played with distorted guitar so I used the Sonics version. The Kingsmen version is one of the great recordings of all time.
And I'm not a huge fan of the Bowie cover either. Just used it to show production differences. Same "beat", different sound.
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Illmatic of course. - yes
It Was Written. - yes
Stillmatic - no
God's Son - no
and
Untitled - no
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oh and Toots & The Maytals live version of "Louie Louie" shits on every other one i've heard IMO
i don't think i've heard Bowies version before
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oh and Toots & The Maytals live version of "Louie Louie" shits on every other one i've heard IMO
i don't think i've heard Bowies version before
He meant Bowie's cover of Springsteen's Saint and the City, which I had posted.
And if you like Reggae then maybe that's the version for you. If you like punk before there was punk, then it's the Kingsmen.
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oh and Toots & The Maytals live version of "Louie Louie" shits on every other one i've heard IMO
i don't think i've heard Bowies version before
sweet and dandy is my shit, their cover is dope, but the original, like shallow said, one of the greatest of all time
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GRODT is probably the most overrated album in the past 10 years. However only Illmatic, It Was Written, Stillmatic and Lost Tapes are better.
GRODT has no replay value whatsoever. I like the album but highly overrated by younger crowd.
LOL @ "In Da Club" being the first club banger. I guess Nelly's "Hot In Herre" released a year before wasn't intended for the clubs. Don't act like "In Da Club" wasn't for the girls "go shawty its your birthday" smh....
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oh and Toots & The Maytals live version of "Louie Louie" shits on every other one i've heard IMO
i don't think i've heard Bowies version before
sweet and dandy is my shit, their cover is dope, but the original, like shallow said, one of the greatest of all time
Kingsmen wasn't the original.