West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Ant on January 09, 2003, 05:57:42 PM
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Which of these ideals do your faith believe in?
God is Omnipotent All powerful
God is Omniscient All knowing
God is Omnipresent Ever present
My question is does islam and christianity believe god is all three or only a combination of two?
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He is all of those things and more. There are 99 proper names, attributes of Allah.
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If he is all powerful, when is his power exercised?
Or rather... are there rules for when God/Allah can step in and "moderate"
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God cannot be completely understood on earth, he is all powerful, all knowing, and ever present, and so much more; God's attributes deal with infinity, and since the human mind's comprehension is finite, we cannot understand his attributes.
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I would agree with that much. I don't feel as if I can comprehend and infinite being.
Actually while I don't really believe in the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah I don't discount God's existance. For me the possibility of an infinite universe that has always been here is equally as amazing as the possibility of a God.
In other words, I think the creation of a Universe almost requires some God like being. Did the world just come from nothing? And if time is infinite, then there could be an infinite being.
However back to the topic at hand?
Since God is agreed by both religions to be all powerful when does each religion believe God exerts his power. How does God interact with the world in the opinion of both christianity and islam. Does he even interact? Does he control all? Control nothing? Step in periodically? Have certain rules he follows that dictate when he will step in?
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I don't really know, personally. I think (I may be wrong) most religious people don't have a full understanding of most of god's ways, and they don't know what his rules are, or when he steps in, or whatever. To the non-relgious person, it sounds like a copout, but to a religious person, It's part of having faith in god, and not questioning his supreme intellect.
All I do know is that, god is all powerful, and CAN exert his power at any moment in any event of our lives, if he so chooses. I believe sometimes he does choose to do that, I believe Miracles occur to this day, probably several times daily in far more ways than we can ever imagine.
Here's an example of how I see things:
Suppose (And I believe this) when we pass, our eyes will be more open to what was going on on this earth; I think when we die (and my religion teaches it) a certain veil is lifted, because we are freed from the things we worried about on earth (money, food, water, time, etc. all becomes irrelevant, so your mind won't be clouded thinking about them). I think after we die, we'll see things more clearly, and understand much more... maybe then, when we look back, we'll see god touching our lives CONSTANTLY. Maybe he steps in all the time. I certainly think that childbirth is a miracle, that should be impossible, but yet it happens all over the place every day. It defies every other law in the universe, but yet it happens everywhere. Maybe we'll look back and find that it was a miracle, and not chance, for instance that Chris Reeves wasn't killed when he bacame paralyzed a few years back, or maybe we'll find that God specifically spared Tom's father's life, when he would have normally died under that truck.
I think miracles happen all the time, and god steps in and helps us out through life constantly, but we probably don't notice it, and can't notice it while on earth.
I think people are just born more open to ideas like that. I swear, and this is kinda gay, but the first time that I knew for SURE that god existed (I always played with the idea as a kid) was one time, I was travelling home from the beach, alone, and this beautiful John Lennon song came on the radio. I remember thinking, god, why would god let somebody that awesome just get shot in the head like a punk in the middle of a stairwell, and have somebody that important to so many people just die, his last words were "I've been shot". Somebody that inspirational to me, and millions of others (I learned SO MUCH from the beatles, I know it's rediculous, but it's true about love, treating people right, etc.); why would god let somebody like that just die so humiliated, or just leave so soon, it didn't make any sense... I was thinking, if there's a god, why would he let John Lennon just get his head blown to bits after all the good things he did?
Then, I had this epiphamy (LOL is that a word?) that maybe, on the flip side, I didn't understand John's purpose, and maybe, since by definition, any god would be much more intelligent then me, maybe I just didn't see the whole picture; maybe John had existed before earth, and maybe he still existed somewhere else, and maybe God just felt like ending his life for some greater cause, or maybe his death was supposed to be a good thing, maybe looks were deceiving. I ended up settling on the opinion that maybe God missed John and wanted such a lovely person to return home to him, LOL. Ever since then I haven't once doubted god, because I make sure to view everything two ways. In other words, a much more interesting question than the ones you've put forth here, to me, would be something like "why do some people believe in god inherently and some don't".
Peace~
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If he is all powerful, when is his power exercised?
Or rather... are there rules for when God/Allah can step in and "moderate"
First of all. Is Trauma creating his own theology, or is his knowledge a product of the Latter Day Saints? I am speaking as a Muslim and from what I have been taught at this point in my Islamic studies.
Ant, to answer your question. When is Allah's power exercised?- At every moment, of every day. There is nothing that is done without the will of Allah.
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That's my own theology, none of which is in contradiction to latter day saint beliefs.
I also feel you just opened yourself up for a loophole. I feel you don't understand as much as you say you do. I can admit, like I did below, when I don't fully understand concepts, but you can't. You say everything is done at the will of allah, but that gives no meaning to our existance, and offers us no free agency. A perfect god would have no slaves.
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That's my own theology, none of which is in contradiction to latter day saint beliefs.
I also feel you just opened yourself up for a loophole. I feel you don't understand as much as you say you do. I can admit, like I did below, when I don't fully understand concepts, but you can't. You say everything is done at the will of allah, but that gives no meaning to our existance, and offers us no free agency. A perfect god would have no slaves.
Actually, I can answer your question. Trauma, you okay man? Anyway, we are taught in Islam that from a human standpoint we are givin free will. Allah has made it that way. But ultimately everything comes from Allah.
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Maybe I just don't understand it.
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I've got a question since people are on a respectfull religious tip in this post.
There is no scientific fact that a God exists. There is no concrete proof that a superior being is out there. That means, that you have to have Faith that your particular God is real. What makes one belief better or more valid than another belief?
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That's my own theology, none of which is in contradiction to latter day saint beliefs.
I also feel you just opened yourself up for a loophole. I feel you don't understand as much as you say you do. I can admit, like I did below, when I don't fully understand concepts, but you can't. You say everything is done at the will of allah, but that gives no meaning to our existance, and offers us no free agency. A perfect god would have no slaves.
Actually, I can answer your question. Trauma, you okay man? Anyway, we are taught in Islam that from a human standpoint we are givin free will. Allah has made it that way. But ultimately everything comes from Allah.
like infinite said
we are saves of Allah
he know everything he have done and will do
but still Allah let us do it by ourself, even though Allah already know what will happen
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That's my own theology, none of which is in contradiction to latter day saint beliefs.
I also feel you just opened yourself up for a loophole. I feel you don't understand as much as you say you do. I can admit, like I did below, when I don't fully understand concepts, but you can't. You say everything is done at the will of allah, but that gives no meaning to our existance, and offers us no free agency. A perfect god would have no slaves.
Actually, I can answer your question. Trauma, you okay man? Anyway, we are taught in Islam that from a human standpoint we are givin free will. Allah has made it that way. But ultimately everything comes from Allah.
like infinite said
we are saves of Allah
he know everything he have done and will do
but still Allah let us do it by ourself, even though Allah already know what will happen
if allah already knows what happens wouldnt that be pre destination than
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That's my own theology, none of which is in contradiction to latter day saint beliefs.
I also feel you just opened yourself up for a loophole. I feel you don't understand as much as you say you do. I can admit, like I did below, when I don't fully understand concepts, but you can't. You say everything is done at the will of allah, but that gives no meaning to our existance, and offers us no free agency. A perfect god would have no slaves.
Actually, I can answer your question. Trauma, you okay man? Anyway, we are taught in Islam that from a human standpoint we are givin free will. Allah has made it that way. But ultimately everything comes from Allah.
like infinite said
we are saves of Allah
he know everything he have done and will do
but still Allah let us do it by ourself, even though Allah already know what will happen
if allah already knows what happens wouldnt that be pre destination than
yes... but you are the one choosing the path, but Allah know the path you will choose, and he allow you to do that, even though you might choose the wrong path
(im not talking about YOU.. just 'you' in general)
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I've got a question since people are on a respectfull religious tip in this post.
There is no scientific fact that a God exists. There is no concrete proof that a superior being is out there. That means, that you have to have Faith that your particular God is real. What makes one belief better or more valid than another belief?
ego powers it.
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I've got a question since people are on a respectfull religious tip in this post.
There is no scientific fact that a God exists. There is no concrete proof that a superior being is out there. That means, that you have to have Faith that your particular God is real. What makes one belief better or more valid than another belief?
how do you belive the world started existing?
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I've got a question since people are on a respectfull religious tip in this post.
There is no scientific fact that a God exists. There is no concrete proof that a superior being is out there. That means, that you have to have Faith that your particular God is real. What makes one belief better or more valid than another belief?
how do you belive the world started existing?
I think that the beginning of the world may have required a God like being. However, the creation of the world doesn't prove the validity of any religious text.
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If he is all powerful, when is his power exercised?
Or rather... are there rules for when God/Allah can step in and "moderate"
First of all. Is Trauma creating his own theology, or is his knowledge a product of the Latter Day Saints? I am speaking as a Muslim and from what I have been taught at this point in my Islamic studies.
Ant, to answer your question. When is Allah's power exercised?- At every moment, of every day. There is nothing that is done without the will of Allah.
So according to Islam, God is all knowing, and all powerful, and he exerts his will at all moments of every day.
In that case then all good and evil, suffering and happiness, etc. are the products of the will of Allah. If nothing is done without the will of Allah then Allah is indeed a cruel being. But what a further contradiction for the Qu'ran that condescends the disbeleivers and wrong doers, but states that everything is done through the will of Allah.
Let's add in further that God is omniscient. An omniscient God who created the world new evil would one day exist. Omniscient implies you know all, you know now and the future. If God was omniscient why create a world of evil? Let's add in further now that he is omnipotent. These together say that God first "knows" (omniscience) how to create a perfect world and has the ability (omnipotence) to create a perfect world, but he didn't.
I posted this arguement before but it was ignored. If such is that case God is either 1)cruel and/or evil 2) not omnipotent 3) not omniscient)
For if he was omnipotent and omniscient the world would not be imperfect unless he willed to be such. Since the world is imperfect the evil in the world is a product of Allah (as you said all things come from the will of Allah), therefore unless God wills evil your assumptions of omnipotence and omniscience are wrong.
But since Allah deeded the Qu'ran to be perfect scripture he again contradicted himself. He claims to be omniscient, omnipotent, and also all good. But he created evil. Therefore if the Qu'ran was written by God it is imperfect and a likely conclusion would be the God is not omniscient or omnipotent. The other possibility is that the Qu'ran was not written by God.
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If he is all powerful, when is his power exercised?
Or rather... are there rules for when God/Allah can step in and "moderate"
First of all. Is Trauma creating his own theology, or is his knowledge a product of the Latter Day Saints? I am speaking as a Muslim and from what I have been taught at this point in my Islamic studies.
Ant, to answer your question. When is Allah's power exercised?- At every moment, of every day. There is nothing that is done without the will of Allah.
So according to Islam, God is all knowing, and all powerful, and he exerts his will at all moments of every day.
In that case then all good and evil, suffering and happiness, etc. are the products of the will of Allah. If nothing is done without the will of Allah then Allah is indeed a cruel being. But what a further contradiction for the Qu'ran that condescends the disbeleivers and wrong doers, but states that everything is done through the will of Allah.
Let's add in further that God is omniscient. An omniscient God who created the world new evil would one day exist. Omniscient implies you know all, you know now and the future. If God was omniscient why create a world of evil? Let's add in further now that he is omnipotent. These together say that God first "knows" (omniscience) how to create a perfect world and has the ability (omnipotence) to create a perfect world, but he didn't.
I posted this arguement before but it was ignored. If such is that case God is either 1)cruel and/or evil 2) not omnipotent 3) not omniscient)
For if he was omnipotent and omniscient the world would not be imperfect unless he willed to be such. Since the world is imperfect the evil in the world is a product of Allah (as you said all things come from the will of Allah), therefore unless God wills evil your assumptions of omnipotence and omniscience are wrong.
But since Allah deeded the Qu'ran to be perfect scripture he again contradicted himself. He claims to be omniscient, omnipotent, and also all good. But he created evil. Therefore if the Qu'ran was written by God it is imperfect and a likely conclusion would be the God is not omniscient or omnipotent. The other possibility is that the Qu'ran was not written by God.
Well I beleive, first of all, evil doesnt fight against good, I mean its not like evil and good are against each other, tryin to dominate. Evil is simply the lack of good, like light and darkness, they work together in order to exist. And most of the time our perception of evil, is wrong. For example a forest fire, its natural, we view it as destruction, but many years later, all the trees and plants that burned down, fertilize the soil, so it grows again. Its kinda complicated, beyond our understanding, we cant make sense of everything that goes on.
We have free will, we are on this earth with minds, and the ability to choose, think, and act. God does not control us, that would make us slaves. We dont pray to God for his benifit, but for ours. So how do we know God exists? I mean, there has to be sumting fueling the Big Bang...
How do we know we exist? We assume that we are minds that inhabit solid, 3-dimensional bodies that move around a three-dimensional world, interacting with other solid bodies - such as the Earth, and tables, and chairs. Real spiritual people beleive, we have to recognise that our experiences are not veridical, the objects that seem to represent may not really be there. And to recognise that the very koncept of solid matter is incoherent: there simply cannot be a physical world out there. Our conciousness is seperate from the actions of the body, we really are this spiritual energy, inside a shell, thats what we really are, souls, connected with God almighty. Plus, the body generates electricity, and its a scientific fact that electricity cant just dissapear, so after we die, get rid of our physcial shell, we dont just dissapear, or "die"...There are somethings beyond our understanding.
-{bLaDe}
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If he is all powerful, when is his power exercised?
Or rather... are there rules for when God/Allah can step in and "moderate"
First of all. Is Trauma creating his own theology, or is his knowledge a product of the Latter Day Saints? I am speaking as a Muslim and from what I have been taught at this point in my Islamic studies.
Ant, to answer your question. When is Allah's power exercised?- At every moment, of every day. There is nothing that is done without the will of Allah.
So according to Islam, God is all knowing, and all powerful, and he exerts his will at all moments of every day.
In that case then all good and evil, suffering and happiness, etc. are the products of the will of Allah. If nothing is done without the will of Allah then Allah is indeed a cruel being. But what a further contradiction for the Qu'ran that condescends the disbeleivers and wrong doers, but states that everything is done through the will of Allah.
Let's add in further that God is omniscient. An omniscient God who created the world new evil would one day exist. Omniscient implies you know all, you know now and the future. If God was omniscient why create a world of evil? Let's add in further now that he is omnipotent. These together say that God first "knows" (omniscience) how to create a perfect world and has the ability (omnipotence) to create a perfect world, but he didn't.
I posted this arguement before but it was ignored. If such is that case God is either 1)cruel and/or evil 2) not omnipotent 3) not omniscient)
For if he was omnipotent and omniscient the world would not be imperfect unless he willed to be such. Since the world is imperfect the evil in the world is a product of Allah (as you said all things come from the will of Allah), therefore unless God wills evil your assumptions of omnipotence and omniscience are wrong.
But since Allah deeded the Qu'ran to be perfect scripture he again contradicted himself. He claims to be omniscient, omnipotent, and also all good. But he created evil. Therefore if the Qu'ran was written by God it is imperfect and a likely conclusion would be the God is not omniscient or omnipotent. The other possibility is that the Qu'ran was not written by God.
One of the first things Allah created were the 'angels' ... they were created from 'flames' (if i remember correct). they had no free will and obeyed Allah's commands to the fullest. Later one, Allah created humans, from 'earth'. He was really satisfied with his 'perfect creation' and gatherd his angels, and commanded them to get down on their knees for his lates creation.
The angel Gabriel didnt want to do that. He said: why should i, when im created from flames, while that human only is created from earth, it should be otherwise). That statement made Allah upset and Allah deformed the angel Gabriel to the most ugly looking thing ever, and kicked him outta heven, down to the deepest place, called hell. Gabriel became "the devil" aka satan.
Satan told Allah something like this: "i cant be alone here in hell, specially since i know that some of your 'humans' will think the way i do, some of them will be evil. give me enough power to be able to test the humans to separate the good ones from the evil ones, the evil ones will join me and will be getting major punishment". God accepted and gave satan requested powers.
the evil in the world isnt God's work, its the work of thoose humans that have been tempted my satans 'offers'
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Then all things don't come from the will of God as infinite said?
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Then all things don't come from the will of God as infinite said?
Allah allow satan to seduce humans to separate the fakes from the true ones
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Okay, a lot was touched on since I last entered the thread.
First, I have a correction to make. It was not the angel Gabriel but the angel Iblis who refused to bow at Allah's command and prostrate before Adam. And it was the angel Gabriel that was the most favored of all angels for he is the one that provided the media through which Allah gave his devine message, Al-Qu'ran, to the prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah (salla alayhi wa salaam).
Other than what I have noted above, brother I-Bo expressed the Muslim position wonderfully, and he answered all of your questions better than I would have myself. My answers are consistent with his.
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So all things don't come from the will of Allah and you were initially wrong? Is that a correct assumption?
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Okay, a lot was touched on since I last entered the thread.
First, I have a correction to make. It was not the angel Gabriel but the angel Iblis who refused to bow at Allah's command and prostrate before Adam. And it was the angel Gabriel that was the most favored of all angels for he is the one that provided the media through which Allah gave his devine message, Al-Qu'ran, to the prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah (salla alayhi wa salaam).
Other than what I have noted above, brother I-Bo expressed the Muslim position wonderfully, and he answered all of your questions better than I would have myself. My answers are consistent with his.
i was to quick with the keyboard..my bad
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Unfortunately Maestro contradicted himself in that small paragraph he wrote that you agreed with completely.
He told us that the angels were first created, given no free will, and then Iblis revolted. Well if Iblis wasn't given free will how did he revolt? If God is omnipotent and omniscient and meant to create a angel with "no free will" he would have.
How did this being who was less powerful than God suddenly gain a free will, which he wasn't given?
Again we are return to my previous conclusions: Either god is not omnipotent and omniscient so that when he created the angels he made a mistake. Or else God is omnipotent and omniscient so that when he created Iblis who eventually revolted he knowingly created evil.
Either god created evil or god is not omnipotent and omniscient.
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Latter Day Saint View... which I've posted 100 times and everybody ignores, then asks the same old questions:
God existed in heaven, all powerful, knowing, etc. whatever you wanna call it. Him, and possibly his wife, who we have no knowledge of, but since the entire gospel stresses the importance of family, we keep ourselves open to the fact that he too has a wife he enjoys the company of, or whatever........ God, and whatever, had children. The reason? Because children bring joy. That's why on earth the ultimate joy is love, and having a family, etc. It's a mirror of heaven. Anyways, God, created children, who grew up loving him, etc. and living with him in heaven. Several children, millions, billions, all of us and more.
Anyways, with us born in heaven, living in perfection, we were not free, because we had no way to choose good vs. evil. In heaven, good is the only choice, because it is supremely better, naturally everyone is perfectly good, loves their father, etc. In heaven we were slaves, unable to choose our own courses, forced to choose perfection. God decides to send us to earth, where we will be blinded, and cannot rememember the perfection of heaven. The only thing to guide us is a conscience, the holy ghost.
Adam's created. God talked with Adam, Satan tempted him, and Adam wasn't perfect anymore, since he had already started to choose bad (disobeying the lord). From then on, it's all downhill. Whenever we choose good, the holy ghost tells us that's proper, etc. on and on and on.
In other words, the reason we're on earth, is to choose bad vs. evil. Evil exists as a choice, hence why the lord allows it. The muslim angel they were mentioning is a lot like satan in the bible. That's a very good question though, about how satan had the free agency to be a jerk in heaven, I never thought about that one. Perhaps yall would throw alll your beliefs out the window because of 1 doctrine you don't understand; in my mind, I'd prefer to just say "I don't know". Peace~
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Unfortunately Maestro contradicted himself in that small paragraph he wrote that you agreed with completely.
He told us that the angels were first created, given no free will, and then Iblis revolted. Well if Iblis wasn't given free will how did he revolt? If God is omnipotent and omniscient and meant to create a angel with "no free will" he would have.
How did this being who was less powerful than God suddenly gain a free will, which he wasn't given?
Again we are return to my previous conclusions: Either god is not omnipotent and omniscient so that when he created the angels he made a mistake. Or else God is omnipotent and omniscient so that when he created Iblis who eventually revolted he knowingly created evil.
Either god created evil or god is not omnipotent and omniscient.
Allah knew that the angel Iblis would rebel and he let him rebel. Allah leads astray who he pleases and guides who he pleases. It is all a part of his plan. Yes, he is responsible for harm done on Earth but that does not make him evil. Allah is a judge, he is a destroyer, he is the creator and sustainer of all things; and yes he can let wrath and hardship fall upon you. It is to test us, and when you are not close to God it is likely that you will cause evil on this Earth. Verily man is in loss, except those who are certain in the last day, keep regular prayers, spend of what they earn, and enjoin good; those who stay close to Allah. And all will be revealed on the last day of that we are certain.
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So God willingly created Evil? That's a cruel God indeed.
If God knew Iblis was going to revolt, and created him with the intention of Iblis revolting thats pretty mean. Create an angel whose purpose is to damn him into eternal hell. God created and damned the devil at the same time? That's just plain shitty.
What if he is doing the same stuff in real life? Creating people that he intends to be damned from the start just so he can "test" us humans. He is throwing people in hell that didn't even stand a chance. He made Iblis so that he would revolt and be cast into hell? I'm glad I wasn't Iblis. For no fault of his own he got sent to hell because God wanted to introduce Evil into the world as a test? Like I said who knows God could be doing the same to us humans. Creating people that are damned from the get go. I guess this idea takes love your neighbor to new heights. Who knows maybe all the evil assholes in the world today were created by Allah as a further test for us. He did it once, why wouldn't he do it again.
Allah creates evil just to test us, willingly adds misery into our world, and still demands we worship almost all day long. Nice guy.
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according to Qu'ran, Bible & Torah, the human being is a 'perfect creation' from God, but still, it had flaws... God provided the human with everything nessecary to be able to become a perfect example, but some people still ignored God. God knew this would happen, cause God is the one that allow the future to happen.
the same things with the angels... even though they had enough intelligence to know that God is the only God & that nothing is greater them God, Iblis still rebelled... and he suffered pain in hell for his misstakes
is that enough explained ??
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Latter Day Saint View... which I've posted 100 times and everybody ignores, then asks the same old questions:
God existed in heaven, all powerful, knowing, etc. whatever you wanna call it. Him, and possibly his wife, who we have no knowledge of, but since the entire gospel stresses the importance of family, we keep ourselves open to the fact that he too has a wife he enjoys the company of, or whatever........ God, and whatever, had children. The reason? Because children bring joy. That's why on earth the ultimate joy is love, and having a family, etc. It's a mirror of heaven. Anyways, God, created children, who grew up loving him, etc. and living with him in heaven. Several children, millions, billions, all of us and more.
Anyways, with us born in heaven, living in perfection, we were not free, because we had no way to choose good vs. evil. In heaven, good is the only choice, because it is supremely better, naturally everyone is perfectly good, loves their father, etc. In heaven we were slaves, unable to choose our own courses, forced to choose perfection. God decides to send us to earth, where we will be blinded, and cannot rememember the perfection of heaven. The only thing to guide us is a conscience, the holy ghost.
Adam's created. God talked with Adam, Satan tempted him, and Adam wasn't perfect anymore, since he had already started to choose bad (disobeying the lord). From then on, it's all downhill. Whenever we choose good, the holy ghost tells us that's proper, etc. on and on and on.
In other words, the reason we're on earth, is to choose bad vs. evil. Evil exists as a choice, hence why the lord allows it. The muslim angel they were mentioning is a lot like satan in the bible. That's a very good question though, about how satan had the free agency to be a jerk in heaven, I never thought about that one. Perhaps yall would throw alll your beliefs out the window because of 1 doctrine you don't understand; in my mind, I'd prefer to just say "I don't know". Peace~
dont forget that also the snake was a jerk in heaven ,, and adam wasnt the smartest guy to accept the apple even though God stricly prohibited him...
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btw... how were the devil 'born' according to the bible?
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according to Qu'ran, Bible & Torah, the human being is a 'perfect creation' from God, but still, it had flaws... God provided the human with everything nessecary to be able to become a perfect example, but some people still ignored God. God knew this would happen, cause God is the one that allow the future to happen.
the same things with the angels... even though they had enough intelligence to know that God is the only God & that nothing is greater them God, Iblis still rebelled... and he suffered pain in hell for his misstakes
is that enough explained ??
I'm getting the feeling that you're just saying whatever is necesary to win this battle. But my desire is never to make you believe my arguement. Its to show everyone else out there how nuts you are so that they won't fall in the same trap.
And yeah thats enough explained.
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WOW...I cant believe the TOT used to have discussions like this before :o
been sooo looong ;D
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WOW, I can't believe anyone has so much time on their hands that they read through threads from 6 months ago. ::)