West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Trauma-san on March 05, 2003, 09:12:37 PM
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Get this, I've been studying this lately, and I think it's time we got rid of some more athiests.
Before Darwin, Athiests really didn't have a convincing argument in support of their claim of no god; they were all philosophical opinions. When Darwin came along, he presented his theory of evolution, and every athiest in the world cited it as 'proof' that humans weren't created by some intelligent 'god like' figure. That's all about to change.
Darwin's theory of evolution hinges on the idea that organisms mutate, and change; the positive mutations or adaptations stick because they help the organism survive, whereas the negative or harmful mutations don't get passed on genetically, because the organism doesn't have the opportunity to reproduce.
In Darwin's day, he was graced with a powerful magniscope, which could identify the cellular makeup of organisms... his theory states that among other things, everything is made up of what he termed "the simple cell".
Since then, microscopes have been improved upon, and with newer x-ray and nuclear magnetic microscopes, every aspect of a cell can be studied much more intensely; what looked like a circle with a dot in the middle to darwin, is now seen as a complex structure, with several complicated parts.
Microbiologists now know that a 'simple cell' is far from it; some scientists believe that the cell, that most 'basic' of building blocks that all mass is made out of, is actually the most complicated, advanced structure in the universe; it's the equivalent of taking the world's greatest supercomputer, and putting it into a space smaller than the size of a human hair. Upon examination, cells are now known to not only have electrons, neutrons, and protons, but hundreds of other structures, including a sort of circular motor (similar to a helicopter motor), a propeller like device that actually enables movement, and various other structures, not the least the complicated d.n.a. strain...
Microbiologists have discovered by examining dead and alive cells, that they are extremely fragile... in fact, so fragile, that if one part of any of the hundreds of components of the cell is mis-shaped, or stunted, or too big, or in the wrong place, or in anyway MUTATED, the cell doesn't work at all, and is useless. What does this mean?
It means that cells, which make up every organism in the universe, could not have evolved to their current state; they won't function with even the slightest mutation in any of their many parts, so they never could have been any different than they are now; they wouldn't have survived the evolution.
This doesn't mean that things haven't changed or 'evolved' over time; it just means that basically, cellular structure could not possibly have happened by accident, hence a need for a design.
D.N.A. was co-discovered by a man named Francis Crick. He has concluded that D.N.A. could not possibly have 'evolved' from bacteria or anything like it on earth... his theory is D.N.A. evolved extraterrestrially, and arrived on earth.... whether you believe THAT theory or not (I don't), it's interesting to note that the man responsible for our knowledge of D.N.A. (who would surely be THE expert on the subject) concludes Darwin's theory is impossible.
Scientists have known since the 60'S! That blood types could not have "evolved". Hemoglobin has two strains; alpha, and beta. Neither could have evolved, because the difference between the two is 287 different amino acids; if one amino acid is changed (just one!) the organism develops sicle cell anemia, and dies.
Basically, the radio show today reminded me of this stuff I had checked out years ago, what do yall think? I mean, does anyone still believe in Evolution? Evolutionary theory today has been reduced to evolutionists attempting to PROVE it, when all evidence simply points at a planned design to molecular structure, in almost every (and perhaps, EVERY) mass component in the universe.
In closing, Scientists have shown that there is no evidence that evolution is responsible for the origin of any species, nor is their evidence that evolution is responsible for the diversity of the species currently on our planet. Don't confuse that with me saying "species don't change", i'm not saying they don't; i'm saying there's no proof that macroevolution (changes from 1 species into another) exists, or that evolution 'created' the species on the earth today. All evidence now points to the impossibility of 'random' genetics, and evidence points to a design, ALL THE WAY DOWN TO MOLECULAR STRUCTURE, from some intelligence.
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hey good post trauma
where did you get the info about there being more structures in the cell?
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^^ It's pretty much common knowledge now... when I was in school, they did the electron/proton/neutron thing, but look at a recent chemistry text I found on the net
http://www.mtsu.edu/~jshardo/bly2010/cellular/general.html
they're listing dozens of particles now.
Scientists have been having forums on this issue for years, and as early as 1980 many top scientists deduced that the probability (this was the SIMPLE CELL, not the knowledge they have of cells now) of a cell coming into existance by chance (like evolutionists claim) was 10 to the 40,000th power. Anything over 10 to the 40th power is considered impossible, even on a 'cosmic' level (meaning infinite space, and the time frame of even the most radical estimate of the history of the universe, 12 billion years).
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I think it's time we got rid of some more athiests
^^^ That is just a stupid comment.
Evolution has never been proven, but most likely (read: it's for 99% sure) evolution takes place. The best example are cats: A cat that's used as a pet are much smaller than wild cats. Wild cats need to survive, they need to be stronger.
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Apparently you're too ignorant to read, because I just showed you exactly why evolution, as a CREATION THEORY is impossible. I mentioned two different times that yes, animals change. There's a difference in micro-evolution, and MACRO-evolution... unfortunately, you don't know the difference. So while you consider it a 'stupid comment', in reality, you're too stupid to comment. Read next time, it's not that complicated.
(http://csm.uscolo.edu/biology/Community/DNA/RYECELL.JPG)
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BTW, that's a picture of a cell.
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Apparently you're too ignorant to read, because I just showed you exactly why evolution, as a CREATION THEORY is impossible. I mentioned two different times that yes, animals change. There's a difference in micro-evolution, and MACRO-evolution... unfortunately, you don't know the difference. So while you consider it a 'stupid comment', in reality, you're too stupid to comment. Read next time, it's not that complicated.
Trust me, I've read it. I also don't take anthing back from what I posted. I have respect for anybody's beliefs, but for me religion is bullshit (don't feel offended) because I don't feel God, there isn't any proof God exists, and you can interpretet the bible (koran) on so many different ways.
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I think it's time we got rid of some more athiests.
WTF? You just lost a lot of respect homie. And I'm not even athiest.
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ARE YALL DAFT? You must be totally kindergarten level with your comprehension capabilities.
Many athiests, ARE athiest, because of Darwinism! For me to say "Time to get rid of some more athiests" and then show proof why darwinism doesn't explain creation... why is there something wrong with that? With this SCIENTIFIC knowledge, the darwinists who are athiests solely because of that should rethink their stance, and at least acknowledge (like many, many athiest scientists have ALREADY done) that study clearly shows that there is NO evidence for Macro-evolution, and that ALL evidence points to a 'grand design' in things, science has proven that the cell, which makes up EVERYTHING on earth, could not have 'accidentally' happened!
Can you not understand the implications of this? Unbelievable... it's right there in front of your face, and still you doubt.
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you'd never be a good preacher trauma, you're way too patronizing.
it doesnt matter what they find, they'll never be scientific proof of God, and I think this is a far cry from completely disproving Darwin. But that doesnt mean people cant believe in what they want, since when has science been able to shape peoples religion and beliefs? if it did, religion would have died out long ago
and how you gon base your argument on someone who thinks we all came from outer space. i think his credibility is already half way out the window
p/s i believe in God. i also believe in evolution
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That was an interesting post trauma.
I'm an athiest but I don't believe it's impossible there is a god, I just dont see why I should follow a certain religion when I'm doing just fine as is.
I dunno if we as a civilisation will ever truly know why we are here. In fact, if it was a pre-designed plan, it could be one of the ways of keeping us interested. The whole area of this kind of philosophy is facinating. I mean, if evolution is true, then what happened before evolution, the same with god, who made him? Can something come from nothing? Interesting though to see new info coming out...im just waiting till we can use the remaining 97% of our brains so we can figure all this shit out.
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Trauma, why don't you respect someone's opinion or believe? I believe Darwin was right, and that is not the reason I am an athiest. I am never raised with religion, for me believing in God is believing Elvis is alive. ::)
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I think it's time we got rid of some more christians!
As evidence I present:
Nietazche "the antichrist"
The past history of the church
The current state of priest-children relations (ie molestations, rape, sodomy)
The contradictory opinions of every christian
Numerous recent theological contributions pertaining to the "accuracy of religious texts"
Numerous sociological contributions on the sociology of God
Numerous philsophical contributions on:
1) the negative implications of christianity
2) the idea of morality
3) the contradictions of christian ideals
The strength of the assumptions on which aethism rests cannot be proven. That much is true as Trauma cited, however falsity and contradictory idealogy of christianity can be proven to any objective critical thinker that is not SCARED to consider a world that is not black and white, that doesn't not end with an afterlife, that does not include good and evil, etc.
The choice to be aethist, christian, islam, or any other religion is yours to make.
Personally, i prefer to create my own religion. Based on my own researched opinions on morality free from the contradictions existent within all major religions.
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Dope post Trauma, and Ant.
The best proof against Darwin I can find, apart from Richard Dawkins (who would let THAT evolve?) is that Darwin himself later retracted much of his statements. Of course, everyone ignored him.
As Trauma said, micro and macro-evolution.
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Like I said for the hundreth time...DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.
I am an open athiest. To me, god is an explanation for everything humans don't understand. Noone was around when the universe started, noone was around when Earth first formed, and noone was around when the trees, oceans, grass, deserts, and all the fun shit came...so NOONE knows how it all began. Since noone knows, people grasp a concept and stick to it...AKA god. Now, there is NO physical evidence that there is a higher power or supreme being...so why do people insist to believe in it? Trauma, not all athiests believe what they do because of Darwin...some people just plain DON'T CARE...like myself.
To me, the bible is just full of convincing myths. I'll start with Mary. Now, we all know it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to get pregnant without SEMEN and an EGG. How do we know if Joeseph and Mary secretly had sex that one night? How do we know if Mary was a hermaphrodite and got herself pregnant? WE DON'T!
I know lots of people will hate me for saying some things I have and give me bad karma, but I care not. What really bothers me...is that so many people try to prove each other wrong and find out how Earth and the universe truly started. WHO GIVES A FUCK?! That happened billions of years ago! We are where we are now. So I say...FUCK HOW THE WORLD STARTED AND FUCK RELIGION, AND BE HAPPY YOU ARE ALIVE ON THIS PLANET WHILE IT'S STILL IN ONE PIECE!
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Like I said for the hundreth time...DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.
I am an open athiest. To me, god is an explanation for everything humans don't understand. Noone was around when the universe started, noone was around when Earth first formed, and noone was around when the trees, oceans, grass, deserts, and all the fun shit came...so NOONE knows how it all began. Since noone knows, people grasp a concept and stick to it...AKA god. Now, there is NO physical evidence that there is a higher power or supreme being...so why do people insist to believe in it? Trauma, not all athiests believe what they do because of Darwin...some people just plain DON'T CARE...like myself.
To me, the bible is just full of convincing myths. I'll start with Mary. Now, we all know it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for a woman to get pregnant without SEMEN and an EGG. How do we know if Joeseph and Mary secretly had sex that one night? How do we know if Mary was a hermaphrodite and got herself pregnant? WE DON'T!
I know lots of people will hate me for saying some things I have and give me bad karma, but I care not. What really bothers me...is that so many people try to prove each other wrong and find out how Earth and the universe truly started. WHO GIVES A FUCK?! That happened billions of years ago! We are where we are now. So I say...FUCK HOW THE WORLD STARTED AND FUCK RELIGION, AND BE HAPPY YOU ARE ALIVE ON THIS PLANET WHILE IT'S STILL IN ONE PIECE!
I can talk with you. I have respect for everyone that believes in (a) god, but I can't stand it when people say it's wrong not to have a religion or whatever. I believe in science (no not scientists) and I believe not everything can be explained. Human beings are not smart enough to explain everything.
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^^^word
I believe if someone is good, if there is a God worth believing in, they'll go to Heaven. Rod at www.air0day.com made the best ever apologetica for atheists.
I believe, but others don't have to.
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I don't belive in god, but I don't deny that there can't be one out there. It just doesn't concern me.
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you'd never be a good preacher trauma, you're way too patronizing.
it doesnt matter what they find, they'll never be scientific proof of God, and I think this is a far cry from completely disproving Darwin. But that doesnt mean people cant believe in what they want, since when has science been able to shape peoples religion and beliefs? if it did, religion would have died out long ago
and how you gon base your argument on someone who thinks we all came from outer space. i think his credibility is already half way out the window
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Trauma i don't know if you hate it when people like Tech or Cwalker post blatently bias articles as fact and the only side to a story, but that is what you have done.
Wasn't the 'grand design' theory pushed by Christian fundemenaltists in the USA who didn't want children to be taught the theory of evolution as it went against their beliefs? They then invested lots of money into research into it and having it taught in schools instead of evolution, and as they couldn't get the creationist theory taught in schools (due to seperation of church and state) so they came up with not a God but a 'grand design'. Simply put it is the creationist theory from The Bible using different words to stop it from breaking the U.S. Constitution. And as for it getting a lot of respect in the scientist community, it doesn't, it gets laughed at by most scientists. It is taught in 'backwater' states such as your own as there populations are too ignorant to anything thats foreign and questions or offers an alternative to their way and beliefs of life.
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Great post Trauma. Much props and respects. I think you can take me off block now. (btw, hint)
If you actually read all of Trauma's post you would understand that atheists have a more difficult argument to make than theists do.
And I don't understand why brother Tech said that there is no proof for God. Allah, God means= Creator. For example, hypothetically, if the world was created by a mixture of gases then that first thought that created that first mixture of gas was an infinite, eternal, thought that I read about in my Qur'an everyday whose name is almighty Allah!!! Therefore, how can you disprove my belief in Allah? The only thing you can disprove is that ugly ass old white man in the clouds that they always show on TV.
Anyway, thanks for the post Trauma, peace.
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The only thing you can disprove is that ugly ass old white man in the clouds that they always show on TV.
Anyway, thanks for the post Trauma, peace.
kill the white man!
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kill the white man!
LOL. His days are numbered!!!! He wants to change but his time is already up!!!!
Okay, maybe not, but that was published in a book a half a century ago.
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99% of the info i've read say the exact opposite of what you just said...most scientific journals i've read say that evolution pretty much proven(trust me i've done papers on this stuff) ...interesting article though, but this is like one article out of 100 that goes this route..also if you watch the discovery channel they base most of their programming on evolution is true....and you have to be damn good in your field to do programming for the discovery channnel
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Interesting article Trauma, props for posting it. I beleive in evolution, it doesnt really confict with my religion either. But i've always had second thoughts about macroevolution, I dont fully beleive it works, or that it doesnt...I read somewhere a while ago that the same processes that cause within-species changes of the frequencies of alleles can be extrapolated to between species changes. And that "There is no difference between micro- and macroevolution except that genes between species usually diverge, while genes within species usually combine. The same processes that cause within-species evolution are responsible for above-species evolution, except that the processes that cause speciation include things that cannot happen to lesser groups, such as the evolution of different sexual apparatus (because, by definition, once organisms cannot interbreed, they are different species). "
-{bLaDe}
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When did I say being athiest was wrong? LOL yall are putting words in my mouth. Let me explain it on an even more kindergarten level, then maybe you can understand me.
SOME athiests, are athiests, ONLY because of Darwinism. They mistakenly attach darwin's theory that animals evolve, to a creation theory. Current research shows that the 'simple cell' couldn't have evolved, because in any state other than it's present, it wouldn't survive.
I didn't say Darwin's theory of MICRO evolution was wrong. Scientific evidence points to that. I said MACRO evolution, evolution outside of a species, into a new species, has no evidence.
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Also, as the more intelligent respondants noted, I wasn't pushing a creationist, christian theory. I was merely saying that EVIDENCE, hard, microbiological evidence points to some sort of intelligence creating the simple cell.
When there is a 10 to the 40,000th power chance of something happening; and science tells you anything over 10 to the 40th is impossible, and would never randomly happen even on an infinite, cosmic level; why would a scientist hold onto a theory based on that concept?
I have nothing against Athiests. I was simply saying, that THOSE athiests that are athiests solely because they believe in evolutionary theory, ought to rethink their stance. If you're an athiest for any other reason, then of course this isn't gonna make you change your mind.
P.S. - Why do I have to explain everything I say? Kaidy, I wouldn't be so patronizing if people would stop challenging me on the assumed. I say something, they attack what I didn't say, necessitating that I say it.
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^^Damn, dope avatar Trauma ;D
-{bLaDe}
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Its nice to try and disprove evolution. But, did u find any proof of God yet? lol.
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Its nice to try and disprove evolution. But, did u find any proof of God yet? lol.
You can't prove God exists to some people; they refuse to listen. However, I know He does, Infinite knows He does, Blade knows He does...And so on. How does it disprove God's existence, that you don't believe in him?
Remember, Darwin died a Christian. He still believed in scientific approaches, but he felt his macro-evolution theory was untenable. However, God-haters had latched onto his earlier ideas, formed whilst he was young and bitter, and ignored him later on.
Wanna say Christians are close-minded? Talk to Richard Dawkins, and every "Darwinist" who ignores Darwin's later works.
Owen
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You can't prove God exists
period..
knowing and believing are two different things. Believing requires no facts to support the theory. Knowing, does.
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Oh, I can prove God exists. To myself, to those willing to LISTEN.
When I look out at the window, see the world pass by, see life happening, I KNOW there is something more than protons, neutrons and electrons.
Maybe you don't. Not my problem. If you're a good person, I'll see you in Heaven.
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Oh, I can prove God exists. To myself, to those willing to LISTEN.
When I look out at the window, see the world pass by, see life happening, I KNOW there is something more than protons, neutrons and electrons.
Maybe you don't. Not my problem. If you're a good person, I'll see you in Heaven.
u can prove it to those willing to believe what u say. I can prove that there are invisible dogs running around my house right now, if im pitching it to someone who will believe it. Im not knockin u for wha u believe tho. If it works for you, then its good for you. If it makes u better, then its good for you. If it doesnt work for me, then my life doesnt change by believing it.
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u can prove it to those willing to believe what u say. I can prove that there are invisible dogs running around my house right now, if im pitching it to someone who will believe it. Im not knockin u for wha u believe tho. If it works for you, then its good for you. If it makes u better, then its good for you. If it doesnt work for me, then my life doesnt change by believing it.
You try to make it sound like some drug dependency. I suppose it is. But that makes it no less true, and no less false.
Let's agree to disagree, or whatever.
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u can prove it to those willing to believe what u say. I can prove that there are invisible dogs running around my house right now, if im pitching it to someone who will believe it. Im not knockin u for wha u believe tho. If it works for you, then its good for you. If it makes u better, then its good for you. If it doesnt work for me, then my life doesnt change by believing it.
You try to make it sound like some drug dependency. I suppose it is. But that makes it no less true, and no less false.
Let's agree to disagree, or whatever.
naw, i aint tryna say youre WRONG. Only that, my view is as right as yours is. Yours is right for you, mine is right for me. Yah know? But yah, agree to disagree.
lol@ Owen being more mature then any other religious person ive disagreed wit on here yet. Props Owen...
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^^ Just to throw salt in.
Existence isn't defined by whether or not you believe it exists, so If I KNOW God exists, It doesn't matter to me what you know. You can't know he DOESN'T exist, because it's impossible to prove a negative (that something isn't). You Can however prove that he does exist.
So, finally, it's possible to prove, by the scientific method, that God exists, by the definition of the Scientific Method! Maybe it hasn't been proven to your satisfaction yet, but it is at least possible to do, because all things are possible until proven impossible, and it's impossible to prove that something DOESN'T exist!
What does this mean? It means, that the argument for a god is always a better argument than the argument against god, since that's an argument that CAN NEVER be won.
Peace~
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this is actually a useless discussion. atheists will always see god doesn't exist and religious people will say god does exist. no matter what the discussion.
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Yeah, but Athiests can't possibly prove they're right, while believers CAN :)
SCIENTIFIC THEORY! GOTTA LOVE IT!!!
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LoL I couldnt resist throwing this joke in:
TEACHER: Tommy do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.
TEACHER: Did you see God?
TOMMY: No.
TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. He doesn't exist.
A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions. The teacher agreed and the little girl questioned the boy.
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yessssss (getting tired of the questions this time).
LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?
TOMMY: Yessssss.
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the teacher?
TOMMY: Yes
LITTLE GIRL: Do you see the teacher's brain?
TOMMY: No.
LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught today in school, she must not have one!
lmao, i found that hilarious...Oh Yeah back on topic. 'God could not reveal His entirety to us without causing major problems in our universe. The sudden appearance of dimensions and matter(?) from outside the universe would destroy anything in the vicinity and maybe even destroy the entire universe. This is why the Bible says that nobody can see God and live.1 However, God could reveal His nature by communicating with humans and sending an incarnated version of Himself. This is exactly what Christianity claims - that God gave messages to humans (through the prophets) and sent an incarnation of Himself (His Son), who took on the form of a human in order to interact with humans directly. Also The Bible says the universe cannot contain God ,indicating He must exist and operate in dimensions of space and time other than those to which we are confined'
-{bLaDe}
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^^ Just to throw salt in.
Existence isn't defined by whether or not you believe it exists, so If I KNOW God exists, It doesn't matter to me what you know. You can't know he DOESN'T exist, because it's impossible to prove a negative (that something isn't). You Can however prove that he does exist.
So, finally, it's possible to prove, by the scientific method, that God exists, by the definition of the Scientific Method! Maybe it hasn't been proven to your satisfaction yet, but it is at least possible to do, because all things are possible until proven impossible, and it's impossible to prove that something DOESN'T exist!
What does this mean? It means, that the argument for a god is always a better argument than the argument against god, since that's an argument that CAN NEVER be won.
Peace~
The thing is, no one has to prove something DOESNT exist. It is yall who are trying to prove that it does. Like my "invisible dogs" idea. Do they exist Trauma? I think they do. Do u believe me now, just because i think they exist? Or do u need me to actually PROVE it to you that they are here. There is no physical evidence of God, only theory and belief. If u believe sumthing enough, u will FIND evidence that might not necessarily be real. If i BELIEVE strongly enough in those invisible dogs, i would find all kinds of reasons as to why they are real.
PS-I dont really believe in invisible dogz lol