West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Sports & Entertainment => Topic started by: FernandoWCR on November 30, 2015, 09:22:33 AM
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Wasn't this 3 years ago?
I guess he figured he couldn't beat Golden State.
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Truth
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He tore his Achilles beating golden state ....... And the rest is history
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if he kept on playing for a few more years, he'd probably lose his ability to walk straight.
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if he kept on playing for a few more years, he'd probably lose his ability to walk straight.
True dat. Glad he came up with that decision - too bad it didn't happen back in 2013 after the achilles injury... still, it's pretty sad watching a talent like Kobe go.
There's only a selected few who knows when it's time to go out in the blaze of glory - and Kobe ain't one of them. I respect him for putting out effort in trying to come back, but your body ain't responding back at 35/36/37 years old they way it used to, when you were 28.
One of the best to ever do it - he'll probably go down as a Top 2 Laker in the history, Top 2-3 shooting guard ever and a Top 10 player of all time. Great legacy for a guy starting off bench in a franchise packed with legends... he dosen't have to prove anything to anyone anymore.
I hope he will have a decent season, and will improve his shooting % - and for fucks sake, someone should stop him from making those terrible 3-pt shots, cause 17 3-pt attempts is just ridiculous @ this point.
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if he kept on playing for a few more years, he'd probably lose his ability to walk straight.
True dat. Glad he came up with that decision - too bad it didn't happen back in 2013 after the achilles injury... still, it's pretty sad watching a talent like Kobe go.
There's only a selected few who knows when it's time to go out in the blaze of glory - and Kobe ain't one of them. I respect him for putting out effort in trying to come back, but your body ain't responding back at 35/36/37 years old they way it used to, when you were 28.
One of the best to ever do it - he'll probably go down as a Top 2 Laker in the history, Top 2-3 shooting guard ever and a Top 10 player of all time. Great legacy for a guy starting off bench in a franchise packed with legends... he dosen't have to prove anything to anyone anymore.
I hope he will have a decent season, and will improve his shooting % - and for fucks sake, someone should stop him from making those terrible 3-pt shots, cause 17 3-pt attempts is just ridiculous @ this point.
Backhanded compliments lol .. So tell me 2 shooting guards in NBA history who can be considered better than Kobe? Don't worry, I'll wait.
If he ain't on your NBA Mount Rushmore then u trippin.
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if he kept on playing for a few more years, he'd probably lose his ability to walk straight.
True dat. Glad he came up with that decision - too bad it didn't happen back in 2013 after the achilles injury... still, it's pretty sad watching a talent like Kobe go.
There's only a selected few who knows when it's time to go out in the blaze of glory - and Kobe ain't one of them. I respect him for putting out effort in trying to come back, but your body ain't responding back at 35/36/37 years old they way it used to, when you were 28.
One of the best to ever do it - he'll probably go down as a Top 2 Laker in the history, Top 2-3 shooting guard ever and a Top 10 player of all time. Great legacy for a guy starting off bench in a franchise packed with legends... he dosen't have to prove anything to anyone anymore.
I hope he will have a decent season, and will improve his shooting % - and for fucks sake, someone should stop him from making those terrible 3-pt shots, cause 17 3-pt attempts is just ridiculous @ this point.
Backhanded compliments lol .. So tell me 2 shooting guards in NBA history who can be considered better than Kobe? Don't worry, I'll wait.
If he ain't on your NBA Mount Rushmore then u trippin.
1 = MJ
2 = Kobe or Jerry West
that's why I said he'll go down as Top 2-3 SG - younger dudes will pick Kobe, older ones will go with Mr. Logo. I didn't saw too much material from West, so at the end of the day I'll probably go with KB also.
No, he ain't on my Mount Rushmore, but I got him in my Top 10 all-time list tho.
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No disrespect but lmao@jerry west
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No disrespect but lmao@jerry west
What about Big O? or Wilt? or Elgin Baylor?
Wanna "lmao" them too? Just cause we ain't seen them play live, like we did MJ/Kobe/LeBron/Shaq/Duncan dosen't mean they don't belong in the conversation dude.
I know your an ultra Kobe fanatic, but please - stop it.
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No disrespect but lmao@jerry west
What about Big O? or Wilt? or Elgin Baylor?
Wanna "lmao" them too? Just cause we ain't seen them play live, like we did MJ/Kobe/LeBron/Shaq/Duncan dosen't mean they don't belong in the conversation dude.
I know your an ultra Kobe fanatic, but please - stop it.
We're talkin about 2guards now .. To put Jerry West above or in the same echelon as Kobe is blasphemous. No disrespect to the legend, but have you ever checked Jerry Wests finals record? He's not even close to Kobe. Wilt is in the discussion.. Oscar and Baylor, again, great players, but not in Kobes top-tier echelon. Didn't have to watch them live, Ive studied the game enough to know this off top.
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No disrespect but lmao@jerry west
What about Big O? or Wilt? or Elgin Baylor?
Wanna "lmao" them too? Just cause we ain't seen them play live, like we did MJ/Kobe/LeBron/Shaq/Duncan dosen't mean they don't belong in the conversation dude.
I know your an ultra Kobe fanatic, but please - stop it.
We're talkin about 2guards now .. To put Jerry West above or in the same echelon as Kobe is blasphemous. No disrespect to the legend, but have you ever checked Jerry Wests finals record? He's not even close to Kobe. Wilt is in the discussion.. Oscar and Baylor, again, great players, but not in Kobes top-tier echelon. Didn't have to watch them live, Ive studied the game enough to know this off top.
You're talking crazy. Jerry had 32 ppg in the finals . The problem was he was playing against Bill Russell. If Russell was on the Lakers Jerry West would have been regarded the greatest ever because they would have won all 11 Titles that the Celtics won and maybe one more after Bill retired and Jerry was still there. And Jerry West would have been the white guy that lead in scoring for that dynasty. The racist US media would have made him massively huge.
Not saying Jerry should be considered the GOAT buy to scoff at the idea of arguing him against Kobe and using team win loss stats agains America''s greatest dynasty is wrong on your part.
Jerry won the MVP in a finals The Lakers lost. He did his thing. The Celtics were just better and because of Russell. Kobe had the best center in the game in his prime for 3 rings. Jerry never had that. When he did get Wilt and faced the Celtocd Russell destroyed Wilt. It was all Jerry.
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No disrespect but lmao@jerry west
What about Big O? or Wilt? or Elgin Baylor?
Wanna "lmao" them too? Just cause we ain't seen them play live, like we did MJ/Kobe/LeBron/Shaq/Duncan dosen't mean they don't belong in the conversation dude.
I know your an ultra Kobe fanatic, but please - stop it.
We're talkin about 2guards now .. To put Jerry West above or in the same echelon as Kobe is blasphemous. No disrespect to the legend, but have you ever checked Jerry Wests finals record? He's not even close to Kobe. Wilt is in the discussion.. Oscar and Baylor, again, great players, but not in Kobes top-tier echelon. Didn't have to watch them live, Ive studied the game enough to know this off top.
You're talking crazy. Jerry had 32 ppg in the finals . The problem was he was playing against Bill Russell. If Russell was on the Lakers Jerry West would have been regarded the greatest ever because they would have won all 11 Titles that the Celtics won and maybe one more after Bill retired and Jerry was still there. And Jerry West would have been the white guy that lead in scoring for that dynasty. The racist US media would have made him massively huge.
Not saying Jerry should be considered the GOAT buy to scoff at the idea of arguing him against Kobe and using team win loss stats agains America''s greatest dynasty is wrong on your part.
Jerry won the MVP in a finals The Lakers lost. He did his thing. The Celtics were just better and because of Russell. Kobe had the best center in the game in his prime for 3 rings. Jerry never had that. When he did get Wilt and faced the Celtocd Russell destroyed Wilt. It was all Jerry.
lol the fuck u talkin bout, west had some AMAZING teams built around him... Kobe won back-to-back with pau gasol and lamar odom. West is an inspiration to me and one of the greatests to ever do it, but he's not in the discussion for GOAT laker. Kobe, Magic, and Kareem are. As incredible as west was, they were simply a level above him.
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No disrespect but lmao@jerry west
What about Big O? or Wilt? or Elgin Baylor?
Wanna "lmao" them too? Just cause we ain't seen them play live, like we did MJ/Kobe/LeBron/Shaq/Duncan dosen't mean they don't belong in the conversation dude.
I know your an ultra Kobe fanatic, but please - stop it.
We're talkin about 2guards now .. To put Jerry West above or in the same echelon as Kobe is blasphemous. No disrespect to the legend, but have you ever checked Jerry Wests finals record? He's not even close to Kobe. Wilt is in the discussion.. Oscar and Baylor, again, great players, but not in Kobes top-tier echelon. Didn't have to watch them live, Ive studied the game enough to know this off top.
You're talking crazy. Jerry had 32 ppg in the finals . The problem was he was playing against Bill Russell. If Russell was on the Lakers Jerry West would have been regarded the greatest ever because they would have won all 11 Titles that the Celtics won and maybe one more after Bill retired and Jerry was still there. And Jerry West would have been the white guy that lead in scoring for that dynasty. The racist US media would have made him massively huge.
Not saying Jerry should be considered the GOAT buy to scoff at the idea of arguing him against Kobe and using team win loss stats agains America''s greatest dynasty is wrong on your part.
Jerry won the MVP in a finals The Lakers lost. He did his thing. The Celtics were just better and because of Russell. Kobe had the best center in the game in his prime for 3 rings. Jerry never had that. When he did get Wilt and faced the Celtocd Russell destroyed Wilt. It was all Jerry.
lol the fuck u talkin bout, west had some AMAZING teams built around him... Kobe won back-to-back with pau gasol and lamar odom. West is an inspiration to me and one of the greatests to ever do it, but he's not in the discussion for GOAT laker. Kobe, Magic, and Kareem are. As incredible as west was, they were simply a level above him.
West did have amazing teams, and he went to the finals like 9 times. But 6 of those 9 times he was playing against the greatest team ever. Kobe didn't win shit against a dynasty team with Pau and Lamar. Jerry's Lakers would have beaten the 09 Magic.
Again, I'm not arguing for West being as good as those guys, though I don't know how you have Kareem above Shaq (as a Laker). That's a joke. Kareem's best years was before going to LA. He won his first ring with LA on the bench injured as Magic carried the load. If Shaq went down I don't see Kobe carrying that team to 3 straight and being MVP 3 years in a row. Your hatred of Shaq is odd, and makes you delusional.
As far as GOAT Lakers its Magic by a landslide and then Shaq and Kobe can share the 2. Its more a joke to put Kobe with Magic than it is to put West with Kobe. Give Jerry West a Shaquille O'Niel for the 60s and they beat the Celtics at least 4 times of the 6.
And my more point about West being regarded the GOAT was to do with racist America. If the press got to hang their hat on a 7 time Champion white guy they wou;ld, because if Russell were on the Lakers West would have at least 7 rings, and I'm being generous, and he would have been the lead scorer for everyone of them. And I don't think an team beats a 60s Lakers with Bill Russell on it, all things made even, not the 80s Lakers, 80s Celtics, 90s Bulls, or 2000s Lakers.
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No disrespect but lmao@jerry west
What about Big O? or Wilt? or Elgin Baylor?
Wanna "lmao" them too? Just cause we ain't seen them play live, like we did MJ/Kobe/LeBron/Shaq/Duncan dosen't mean they don't belong in the conversation dude.
I know your an ultra Kobe fanatic, but please - stop it.
We're talkin about 2guards now .. To put Jerry West above or in the same echelon as Kobe is blasphemous. No disrespect to the legend, but have you ever checked Jerry Wests finals record? He's not even close to Kobe. Wilt is in the discussion.. Oscar and Baylor, again, great players, but not in Kobes top-tier echelon. Didn't have to watch them live, Ive studied the game enough to know this off top.
You're talking crazy. Jerry had 32 ppg in the finals . The problem was he was playing against Bill Russell. If Russell was on the Lakers Jerry West would have been regarded the greatest ever because they would have won all 11 Titles that the Celtics won and maybe one more after Bill retired and Jerry was still there. And Jerry West would have been the white guy that lead in scoring for that dynasty. The racist US media would have made him massively huge.
Not saying Jerry should be considered the GOAT buy to scoff at the idea of arguing him against Kobe and using team win loss stats agains America''s greatest dynasty is wrong on your part.
Jerry won the MVP in a finals The Lakers lost. He did his thing. The Celtics were just better and because of Russell. Kobe had the best center in the game in his prime for 3 rings. Jerry never had that. When he did get Wilt and faced the Celtocd Russell destroyed Wilt. It was all Jerry.
lol the fuck u talkin bout, west had some AMAZING teams built around him... Kobe won back-to-back with pau gasol and lamar odom. West is an inspiration to me and one of the greatests to ever do it, but he's not in the discussion for GOAT laker. Kobe, Magic, and Kareem are. As incredible as west was, they were simply a level above him.
West did have amazing teams, and he went to the finals like 9 times. But 6 of those 9 times he was playing against the greatest team ever. Kobe didn't win shit against a dynasty team with Pau and Lamar. Jerry's Lakers would have beaten the 09 Magic.
Again, I'm not arguing for West being as good as those guys, though I don't know how you have Kareem above Shaq (as a Laker). That's a joke. Kareem's best years was before going to LA. He won his first ring with LA on the bench injured as Magic carried the load. If Shaq went down I don't see Kobe carrying that team to 3 straight and being MVP 3 years in a row. Your hatred of Shaq is odd, and makes you delusional.
As far as GOAT Lakers its Magic by a landslide and then Shaq and Kobe can share the 2. Its more a joke to put Kobe with Magic than it is to put West with Kobe. Give Jerry West a Shaquille O'Niel for the 60s and they beat the Celtics at least 4 times of the 6.
And my more point about West being regarded the GOAT was to do with racist America. If the press got to hang their hat on a 7 time Champion white guy they wou;ld, because if Russell were on the Lakers West would have at least 7 rings, and I'm being generous, and he would have been the lead scorer for everyone of them. And I don't think an team beats a 60s Lakers with Bill Russell on it, all things made even, not the 80s Lakers, 80s Celtics, 90s Bulls, or 2000s Lakers.
lol basketball is clearly not your first sport .. First of all, magic, jerry, shaq etc. have all already alluded to Kobe being the goat laker and it's really sad to see someone go as far as questioning this. I have no beef with anyone naming magic, but to say Kobe isn't in the same class as magic is a joke. The difference between Kobe and magic was that Kobe was a lockdown defender while magic was average at best on D.. Basketball is a sport of offense and defense. So spare me the revisionist talk homie... As for shaq being a greater laker than Kareem LOL .. Kareem spent 13 years in LA and won 5 titles in the process. He's just a better overall player than Shaq, and it's not even up for debate.. He came to LA in the midst of his prime and spent the duration of his career here. Shaq was a beast, but also became a journey man at the end of his career. And if Shaq went down vs the nets, sixers, or pacers in the finals, I duno if Kobe woulda started at center, but lakers woulda still won with Kobe putting up huge numbers ala magic Johnson .. Let's not pretend magic played the entire series without Kareem, because it was only one game.......other than that, I can tell u like Jerry a little extra because he's white, and I got no problem with that...but let's not give him extra credit and start comparing him to Kobe or Magic when he doesn't have the rings... If ands or buts don't count in basketball, Karl Malone would be considered the goat PF with just 1 or 2 rings .. But he's not, and that's why Tim Duncan is.
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I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.
You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.
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I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.
You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.
THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?
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I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.
You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.
THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?
I'm a logic fan. There are plenty of factors of Kobe's game you could point to to say he's better than West. Rings are the last factor.
I played basketball most of my life. Coached it to. We won some titles and lost some. It was never because our best player was better than their best player because I played with the best player in the city and lost and coached the best player in the city and lost. And when we won it was because we outplayed them. Never because he outplayed him.
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I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.
You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.
THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?
I'm a logic fan. There are plenty of factors of Kobe's game you could point to to say he's better than West. Rings are the last factor.
I played basketball most of my life. Coached it to. We won some titles and lost some. It was never because our best player was better than their best player because I played with the best player in the city and lost and coached the best player in the city and lost. And when we won it was because we outplayed them. Never because he outplayed him.
yes, basketball on any other level is not comparable to NBA basketball, where the star is ALWAYS the focal point...even college, it's a lot more of an equal opportunity league, compared to the NBA, which is 100% star driven. so no, ring factor is not the last thing we use to measure greatness when talking about superstars, because when youre one of 5 people on the court in such a star oriented league, 90% of the success or failure falls on u. always been like this in the NBA, especially when compared to other levels of basketball, and even more so when compared to any other team sport.
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I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.
You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.
THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?
I'm a logic fan. There are plenty of factors of Kobe's game you could point to to say he's better than West. Rings are the last factor.
I played basketball most of my life. Coached it to. We won some titles and lost some. It was never because our best player was better than their best player because I played with the best player in the city and lost and coached the best player in the city and lost. And when we won it was because we outplayed them. Never because he outplayed him.
yes, basketball on any other level is not comparable to NBA basketball, where the star is ALWAYS the focal point...even college, it's a lot more of an equal opportunity league, compared to the NBA, which is 100% star driven. so no, ring factor is not the last thing we use to measure greatness when talking about superstars, because when youre one of 5 people on the court in such a star oriented league, 90% of the success or failure falls on u. always been like this in the NBA, especially when compared to other levels of basketball, and even more so when compared to any other team sport.
If we're talking legacy vs legacy you're right, but talent vs talent you're wrong. Not about West. I'll gladly agree that Kobe was better, but because he was better, not because he has 5 rings to 1. That's why he'll be seen as greater. For example I don't think Bill Russell could have covered Shaq. I don't think Russell was big or strong enough to play against a big man that big and plays his game that well. So I might argue that Shaq was better than Russell, but I 'll never say greater.
Same for Iverson. There's a lot of greater point guards Iverson was better than.
We agree on West vs Kobe. I just think using rings to justify it is cheap. They never played against each other or against the same teams, or with the same players. If Kobe had been drafted by the Raptors his greatness would be a fraction of what ity is now, but his skills would have been the same.
My initial point about Russel as it pertains to West is that if Russell simply not existed West would have been much greater than he is, but not any better.
In closing, can you at least concede that you've never conceded anything ever in an argument?
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I could care less about West. I just know how America works. And my beef isn't saying West is better or worse. It's saying it's because of team wins and losses. Kobe without Shaq wouldn't have gotten to the finals to win in those years and Kareem without Magic wouldn't have either. But West on those trams doesn't either.
You want to debate why one player is better than the other debate the skill sets not the team accomplishments.
THAT DOESNT MATTER...U CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT JORDAN WITHOUT PIPPEN, BIRD WITHOUT MCHALE, OSCAR WITHOUT KAREEM.......EVEN WITHOUT SHAQ, KOBE STILL HAS 2 RINGS, 1 MORE THAN WEST... AND WEST PLAYED WITH SUPER-TEAMS FOR HIS ENTIRE CAREER, STRAIGHT UP. INDIVIDUAL SKILL SET FACTORS INTO TEAM ACCOMPLISHMENTS, ESPECIALLY IN BASKETBALL, WHERE ONE PLAYERS DRIVE CAN PUSH THE ENTIRE TEAM TO THE TOP. THATS WHY RING COUNT IS THE MAIN FACTOR IN DEBATING GREATS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SPORT. IT'S 5-ON-5, BUT ONE PLAYER CAN DRIVE THE ENTIRE TEAM, MORE SO THAN ANY OTHET TEAM SPORT...IT'S NOT FOOTBALL OR BASEBALL. THATS WHY IM SAYING, U CLEARLY NOT COMIN OFF AS A BASKETBALL HEAD HERE, BUT RATHER AN NFL FAN WHO ENJOY SOME NBA ON THE SIDE...AM I RIGHT OR AM I RIGHT?
I'm a logic fan. There are plenty of factors of Kobe's game you could point to to say he's better than West. Rings are the last factor.
I played basketball most of my life. Coached it to. We won some titles and lost some. It was never because our best player was better than their best player because I played with the best player in the city and lost and coached the best player in the city and lost. And when we won it was because we outplayed them. Never because he outplayed him.
yes, basketball on any other level is not comparable to NBA basketball, where the star is ALWAYS the focal point...even college, it's a lot more of an equal opportunity league, compared to the NBA, which is 100% star driven. so no, ring factor is not the last thing we use to measure greatness when talking about superstars, because when youre one of 5 people on the court in such a star oriented league, 90% of the success or failure falls on u. always been like this in the NBA, especially when compared to other levels of basketball, and even more so when compared to any other team sport.
If we're talking legacy vs legacy you're right, but talent vs talent you're wrong. Not about West. I'll gladly agree that Kobe was better, but because he was better, not because he has 5 rings to 1. That's why he'll be seen as greater. For example I don't think Bill Russell could have covered Shaq. I don't think Russell was big or strong enough to play against a big man that big and plays his game that well. So I might argue that Shaq was better than Russell, but I 'll never say greater.
Same for Iverson. There's a lot of greater point guards Iverson was better than.
We agree on West vs Kobe. I just think using rings to justify it is cheap. They never played against each other or against the same teams, or with the same players. If Kobe had been drafted by the Raptors his greatness would be a fraction of what ity is now, but his skills would have been the same.
My initial point about Russel as it pertains to West is that if Russell simply not existed West would have been much greater than he is, but not any better.
In closing, can you at least concede that you've never conceded anything ever in an argument?
i think a little differently....i think if you're great, you're great, no matter what. if you're the best at what you do, you'll eventually find a way to get it done and get the best out of what u have. imo, if kobe was drafted by the raptors, he'd be just as great as he is now...probably with some even better individual accolades and some 40 ppg seasons under his belt, considering he'd be handed a franchise from day 1 ala michael jordan and the bulls.....tbh, it'd probably be even better for his individual legacy. the top-tier greats find a way to do it, no matter what...as for me not conceding anything, this is simply how i felt, even before we had this convo...so i dont know why u'd expect me to change my stance and concede anything? as i dont expect you will either.
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But he wouldn't have 5 rings, and we both agree that it would make his legacy less than what it is now. And yes, if you're great you'll find a way to show that greatness. MJ was a greater player than a lot of guys before he won his first 3peat. You could see it, but it's the winning that makes his legacy as the greatest ever. Whether you like it or not, or I like it or not, when the book of Basketball is written it's MJ the greatest ever and there is no one playing right nw that going to top that. It may happen one day.
Just like baseball has Babe Ruth. You can argue this that or the third about how he got those numbers or how he would have looked today but legacy is legacy and history is history. No matter who you think is better.
Let's take Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning. I think talent vs talent prime vs prime Peyton isn't just better, he's significantly next level better, but I'm not so stupid as to wonder who ends up with the greater legacy. The best Peyton can do is return from injury and win this year just to get back in the legacy argument. I can debate why Peyton is better than Brady in great detail and no one that has sat and went over the footage with me has ever left disagreeing with me. But Tom Brady will be remembered as the greater QB because he has more rings and his team won more playoff games. I won't argue that.
For the most part I think sports are fixed, or at least skewed by the leagues in order to sell the product in a way they want to sell it. Greatness can be manufactured; ask Tim Donaghy. But skill cannot be. I like watch top level sports to see top level skill exibited. Much in the same way I used to watch pro wrestling. Athletic artists at work. But I get as much upset or happy about a team winning a championship as I do a wrestler winning a belt.
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But he wouldn't have 5 rings, and we both agree that it would make his legacy less than what it is now. And yes, if you're great you'll find a way to show that greatness. MJ was a greater player than a lot of guys before he won his first 3peat. You could see it, but it's the winning that makes his legacy as the greatest ever. Whether you like it or not, or I like it or not, when the book of Basketball is written it's MJ the greatest ever and there is no one playing right nw that going to top that. It may happen one day.
Just like baseball has Babe Ruth. You can argue this that or the third about how he got those numbers or how he would have looked today but legacy is legacy and history is history. No matter who you think is better.
Let's take Tom Brady vs Peyton Manning. I think talent vs talent prime vs prime Peyton isn't just better, he's significantly next level better, but I'm not so stupid as to wonder who ends up with the greater legacy. The best Peyton can do is return from injury and win this year just to get back in the legacy argument. I can debate why Peyton is better than Brady in great detail and no one that has sat and went over the footage with me has ever left disagreeing with me. But Tom Brady will be remembered as the greater QB because he has more rings and his team won more playoff games. I won't argue that.
For the most part I think sports are fixed, or at least skewed by the leagues in order to sell the product in a way they want to sell it. Greatness can be manufactured; ask Tim Donaghy. But skill cannot be. I like watch top level sports to see top level skill exibited. Much in the same way I used to watch pro wrestling. Athletic artists at work. But I get as much upset or happy about a team winning a championship as I do a wrestler winning a belt.
But that's the thing .. You don't know if drafted to the Raptors, Kobe ends up with 7+ .. Jordan won 6 drafted to a terrible Bulls with a retirement in between threepeats. Greatness attracts greatness. Especially when you combine greatness with impeccable drive.. We can debate all day whether sports is fixed or not. But one thing I do know- Kobe, Magic, MJ, Kareem, Bird were all the greatest at what they did .. Now, Jerry west, he was incredible, but not on that top tier. And that's considering everything that factors into being the greatest of the great, from skill, to drive, to accomplishment.
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I'm 100% positive that the NBA never allows a Canadian team to be a dynasty. In the MLB the Jays one back to back and then the third year it looked as if Montreal was going to win so MLB went on strike. When they came back from strike the Montreal and Toronto teams were bring gutted Of talent and soon after that Montreal was not even a team anymore.
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I'm 100% positive that the NBA never allows a Canadian team to be a dynasty. In the MLB the Jays one back to back and then the third year it looked as if Montreal was going to win so MLB went on strike. When they came back from strike the Montreal and Toronto teams were bring gutted Of talent and soon after that Montreal was not even a team anymore.
they'll do whatever benefits them the most....and with a once in a generation talent like kobe, marketing him to death and pushing him to untouchable status ala michael jordan sells. they started doing it with kobe, but then the rape trial hit, and the nba quickly moved on to lebron. only thing with lebron is that he's not nearly as skilled as the other GOATs, but they needed some1 to fill the void and thats who was chosen by Stern....but kobe pre-rape trial was the original choice. he was in line to being as shoved down our throats as michael jordan was....and even after the nba stopped giving him that level of shine, he still went out n got it on his own by the power of true greatness.
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I'm 100% positive that the NBA never allows a Canadian team to be a dynasty. In the MLB the Jays one back to back and then the third year it looked as if Montreal was going to win so MLB went on strike. When they came back from strike the Montreal and Toronto teams were bring gutted Of talent and soon after that Montreal was not even a team anymore.
they'll do whatever benefits them the most....and with a once in a generation talent like kobe, marketing him to death and pushing him to untouchable status ala michael jordan sells. they started doing it with kobe, but then the rape trial hit, and the nba quickly moved on to lebron. only thing with lebron is that he's not nearly as skilled as the other GOATs, but they needed some1 to fill the void and thats who was chosen by Stern....but kobe pre-rape trial was the original choice. he was in line to being as shoved down our throats as michael jordan was....and even after the nba stopped giving him that level of shine, he still went out n got it on his own by the power of true greatness.
Had he been so great on the Raptors and shown superstar marketability the NBA would have forced a trade. Like the NHL did with Wayne Gretzky.
Anyway. Slim chance I'm in LA one or two days around Christmas. I'll let you know. Maybe we can link up. If you want.
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I'm 100% positive that the NBA never allows a Canadian team to be a dynasty. In the MLB the Jays one back to back and then the third year it looked as if Montreal was going to win so MLB went on strike. When they came back from strike the Montreal and Toronto teams were bring gutted Of talent and soon after that Montreal was not even a team anymore.
they'll do whatever benefits them the most....and with a once in a generation talent like kobe, marketing him to death and pushing him to untouchable status ala michael jordan sells. they started doing it with kobe, but then the rape trial hit, and the nba quickly moved on to lebron. only thing with lebron is that he's not nearly as skilled as the other GOATs, but they needed some1 to fill the void and thats who was chosen by Stern....but kobe pre-rape trial was the original choice. he was in line to being as shoved down our throats as michael jordan was....and even after the nba stopped giving him that level of shine, he still went out n got it on his own by the power of true greatness.
Had he been so great on the Raptors and shown superstar marketability the NBA would have forced a trade. Like the NHL did with Wayne Gretzky.
Anyway. Slim chance I'm in LA one or two days around Christmas. I'll let you know. Maybe we can link up. If you want.
that i wouldn't doubt....
lemme know fam 8)
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Still touch and go. I have some free time between Dec 23 and 28 and don't want to be in the cold. Doubtful but who knows. I'll probably just go to the airport on the 23rd and see who's flying where for cheap. I'm kind of spur of the moment like that.
I'll probably just end up in Montreal. It's beautiful around Christmas time.
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Dope..Never been to Canada but I definitely wana make it a point to go out there some day
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Dope..Never been to Canada but I definitely wana make it a point to go out there some day
Nothing special up here. But if you wanna come to Greece let me know. I go back and forth a lot. Athens is a nice city when you know the local scenes.
But you're more than welcome in Toronto.
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Dope..Never been to Canada but I definitely wana make it a point to go out there some day
Nothing special up here. But if you wanna come to Greece let me know. I go back and forth a lot. Athens is a nice city when you know the local scenes.
But you're more than welcome in Toronto.
Heard Toronto was my shit, thats definitely the first spot i'd go if i headed up north. good lookin out.