West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: M Dogg™ on December 16, 2003, 12:41:16 PM
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VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope John Paul took a swipe at the United States and its allies Tuesday for invading Iraq without U.N. approval, suggesting they had succumbed to the temptation to use the law of force instead of the force of law.
In his World Day of Peace message, issued three days after the capture of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, he also appealed to democracies fighting terrorism to uphold the principles of international law and fundamental human rights.
In the message, which is sent to leaders of nations and world organizations, the 83-year-old pope also said the U.N. needed reform and the international community had to heal the underlying social injustices that can fuel terrorism.
In the 13-page message he appealed to terrorists, telling them that violence was not only unacceptable but compromises "the very cause for which you are fighting."
The message, called "An Ever-Timely Commitment: Teaching Peace," was largely dedicated to the theme of international law and its role in resolving conflicts between states.
Without mentioning any country by name, he recalled that the U.N. Charter "confirms the natural right to legitimate defense, to be exercised in specific ways and in the context of the United Nations."
He also recalled that the U.N. Security Council had responsibility for collective security with "competence and responsibility for the preservation of peace, with power of decision and ample discretion."
NOT A JUST WAR
The Vatican did not consider the war in Iraq "a just war" because it was not backed by the United Nations and because the Vatican believed more negotiations were necessary to avoid it.
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan warned Washington a week before the war started that without Security Council backing, a war to disarm Iraq would violate the world body's charter.
The pope said it was necessary for states to avoid the "temptation to appeal to the law of force rather than to the force of law."
He also said he realized that international law was "hard pressed" today because of the presence of terrorist groups which could not be considered states in the traditional sense of law.
"The scourge of terrorism has become more virulent in recent years and has produced brutal massacres which have in turn put even greater obstacles in the way of dialogue and negotiation ..." he wrote.
Force had to be accompanied by what he called "a courageous and lucid analysis of the reasons behind terrorist attacks."
The fight against terrorism had to aim at "eliminating the underlying causes of situations of injustice which frequently drive people to more desperate and violent acts..."
Combating terrorism "cannot justify a renunciation of the principles of the rule of law," he wrote, adding that political decisions must take into consideration fundamental human rights.
Civil rights groups have criticized new anti-terrorism laws enacted after September 11, 2001 that give the U.S. government the power to tap telephones, track Internet usage and cell phones, share intelligence information and detain immigrants.
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Man first of all O.N.U. doesnt exist. And this is a fact. It has still medieval post-second-world-war rules, where 5 Nations rules the world. That's now "law". That's "power". Of the powers who won the IIWW. So the whole message can be reduced to this simple fact. Other than that, i find funny how you (all, non Italians/christians) use those quotes of the Pope without really knowing all the things he himself and the Italian Church has said about the war in the last months. I mean he NEVER said USA/UK did a bad thing. NEVER. He just wanted O.N.U. to direct it, but that's cause he's the Pope. Have you read his comments about the deaths of Italians in Nassiriya? Have you read his comments about the war and the opportunity for Italians to stay there no matter what happened in Nassirya? Have you seen how Italian Church (actually n.2 of the Pope) has CELEBRATED the deads of Nassiriya in the second biggest Church of Rome, calling them people HEROES? (i mean soldiers celebrated by the Church?). Have you read what the n.2 of the Pope said during the funerals of them "heroes" ("that's a right war, and Italy doesnt have to run away because terrorism will never win!"). Dont take 1 formal document to say negative things about the war or USA. Cause he's still the Pope. And that's what a Pope says. But the whole Italian Church is against any war, but more than that, is against Saddam/Bin Laden/terrorism. So if the use of the power is the only way, they accept it. Only thing is that they wanted O.N.U. to direct it, but like i said, O.N.U. is the most pathetic istitution ever, who NEVER did a thing right. Actually it doesnt exists. But the Pope has to talk like a Pope.
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Dogg, the Pope is Polish, not Italian. Second, what the hell is the ONU, and were is that in the pope's quote. Also, IIWW, you mean WWII, you are all backwards.
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Too many questions:
Dogg, the Pope is Polish, not Italian.
YEAH, THE POPE IS POLISH, BUT HE LIVES IN ITALY (VATICAN IS IN ITALY, C'MON) AND HE SPEAKS ITALIAN. AND WHEN I SAY ITALIAN CHURCH I MEAN THE CHURCH OF ROME, ITALY. WHERE THE POPE IS THE "BOSS"
Second, what the hell is the ONU
IS AN ORGANIZATION WHO WENT AWAY FROM IRAQ. WHO DOESNT HAVE ARMY (you didnt know?), WHERE NATIONS WHO WON WWII STILL HAVE THE POWER OF VETO (so for example France could talk with Iraq -being their n.1 creditors of the world- to assure Saddam they'll never let a war take place in Iraq, using their veto), WHO NEVER DID SOMETHING CONCRETE (N-E-V-E-R) IN ITS WHOLE HISTORY. THAT'S ONU.
and were is that in the pope's quote.
WHICH ONE? POPE SPEAKS EVERY SUNDAY FROM BASILICA DI SAN PIETRO.
Also, IIWW, you mean WWII, you are all backwards.
YEAH, IT WAS A TYPO. ANYWAY USUALLY, WHEN I SPEAK WITH MY FRIENDS, I CALL IT "SECONDA GUERRA MONDIALE". NOT WWII OR IIWW. I'M NOT ENGLISH, I MADE A TYPO. BUT YOU UNDERSTOOD IT, SO IT AINT A BAD TYPO.
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Politics should be seperate from religion.
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Politics should be seperate from religion.
It is. They just quoted 1 thing Pope said to make a message out from it. But NOBODY in Italy, where we hear the Pope speaking EVERYDAY, used it or gave a bad interpretation of it. I understand that it's different if you want to use it for internal politics of USA. You can use it. But if you do it, quote all the other things Pope has said before!
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So let me get this straight. The Pope doesn't support war. I think I knew that already. He's THE POPE.
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Actually he said that O.N.U. must BECAME not only an organization to make international laws, but a direction for all the countries. He gotta be stronger, better. He criticated O.N.U.
But somehow somebody made it like he criticated U.S.A.
ROFL!!!!!!!
And i'm saying it cause i've read AVVENIRE, the newspaper of Vaticano, where they reported everything, explaining it.
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The Pope knows we got his back, LOL. LONG LIVE ITALY!!!!
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LOL
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The Vatican did not consider the war in Iraq "a just war" because it was not backed by the United Nations and because the Vatican believed more negotiations were necessary to avoid it.
The pope said it was necessary for states to avoid the "temptation to appeal to the law of force rather than to the force of law."
"The scourge of terrorism has become more virulent in recent years and has produced brutal massacres which have in turn put even greater obstacles in the way of dialogue and negotiation ..." he wrote.
Combating terrorism "cannot justify a renunciation of the principles of the rule of law," he wrote, adding that political decisions must take into consideration fundamental human rights.
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Buy a copy of AVVENIRE, let somebody in Little Italy translate it for you, then we can have a discussion. Peace.
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God bless the Pope. I really respect him.
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News just in... The Pope has been added to the Axis of Evil...
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News just in... The Pope has been added to the Axis of Evil...
Please.
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I'm not catholic, although I am of course Christian, but I agree with nearly everything the Pope says. He's an example of someone from a different culture, and a different religion, that I can recognize good in. He's a great man, and has done countless good for the world, simply by BEING who he is. There are very, very, very few people who have lived in my life who have stood uncompromisingly for what they believe in, and he's one of those people. Fabulous person.
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Yeah, this Pope and Mother Teresa of Calcutta are icons of this century. No matter what's your religion.
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the pope needs to retire tho he is unable to properly perform as pope anymore
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the pope needs to retire tho he is unable to properly perform as pope anymore
To retire? ROFL! He aint Michael Jordan, man!! ;D
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The Pope is right... we need to examine the root causes of so-called "terrorism".
-The occupation of Palestine
-The occupation of Iraq
-The occupation of Afganistan
-The Sudanese bombings
-The sanctions placed on Muslim countries
-American troops stationed in 100 countries around the world
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The Pope is right... we need to examine the root causes of so-called "terrorism".
-The occupation of Palestine
-The occupation of Iraq
-The occupation of Afganistan
-The Sudanese bombings
-The sanctions placed on Muslim countries
-American troops stationed in 100 countries around the world
Actually he didnt say so.
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The Pope is right... we need to examine the root causes of so-called "terrorism".
-The occupation of Palestine
-The occupation of Iraq
-The occupation of Afganistan
-The Sudanese bombings
-The sanctions placed on Muslim countries
-American troops stationed in 100 countries around the world
-The occupation of Palestine ...the land belonged to the jews first and they took it back...samething the palistines are doing now...but they are the victims cause they are losing
-The occupation of Iraq ...a country ruled by a strict dictator that slaughtered his own people and had them living in fear of him...but now they have a chance to have a say about the land they live in like any human being should...
-The occupation of Afganistan ...a country that harbored and trained thousands of terrorists involved in killed numerous people of various nations....
-The Sudanese bombings ...can't lie...haven't read anything about that
-The sanctions placed on Muslim countries ....don't know
-American troops stationed in 100 countries around the world ...believe it or not, the american government pays the host country for thier land.... just like a McDonald's or a Starbucks does
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The Pope is right... we need to examine the root causes of so-called "terrorism".
-The occupation of Palestine
-The occupation of Iraq
-The occupation of Afganistan
-The Sudanese bombings
-The sanctions placed on Muslim countries
-American troops stationed in 100 countries around the world
-The occupation of Palestine ...the land belonged to the jews first and they took it back...samething the palistines are doing now...but they are the victims cause they are losing
-The occupation of Iraq ...a country ruled by a strict dictator that slaughtered his own people and had them living in fear of him...but now they have a chance to have a say about the land they live in like any human being should...
-The occupation of Afganistan ...a country that harbored and trained thousands of terrorists involved in killed numerous people of various nations....
-The Sudanese bombings ...can't lie...haven't read anything about that
-The sanctions placed on Muslim countries ....don't know
-American troops stationed in 100 countries around the world ...believe it or not, the american government pays the host country for thier land.... just like a McDonald's or a Starbucks does
How about propping up puppet governments and strengthening opposition movements to existing governments?
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still not terrorism but a good tacticle move by any government. ensure we'll have countries that have our backs...remember this can work both ways...they could end up being cool with us (israel) or some crazy bastards (cuba, afghanistan, iraq)
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still not terrorism but a good tacticle move by any government. ensure we'll have countries that have our backs...remember this can work both ways...they could end up being cool with us (israel) or some crazy bastards (cuba, afghanistan, iraq)
Other countries are just supposed to accept this, self-effacingly?
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they really have no choice...there's only two types of countries when it comes to america policies....those that agree with us and those that are too afraid to do something....
if france, germany and russia were really so immorally against this war, they could have easily stood up for iraq....there was nothing stopping them...but they didn't for whatever reason and now they are moving on and making deals with the US for post war results.
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still not terrorism but a good tacticle move by any government. ensure we'll have countries that have our backs...remember this can work both ways...they could end up being cool with us (israel) or some crazy bastards (cuba, afghanistan, iraq)
alot of jews in washinton why do you think they turn a blind eye to all the shit israel does