West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Real American on February 28, 2005, 12:13:49 PM
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Has anyone been paying attention to what is happening in Lebanon? If you don't know, Lebanon is a small Arab country that is controlled by Syria. The Syrian army occupies the country and they oppress and torture the Lebanese populaion. A few weeks ago, a former prime minister of Lebanon was assasinated by Syria. Well, the people of Lebanon have apparently had enough because since then they have taken to the streets to protest the Syrian presence and have called for independence and freedom. Those kind of protests have been revolutionary in that part of the world and would have been unthinkable just years ago. And today the pro Syrian politicians in Lebanon have resigned in response to the dramatic public pressure, giving the Lebanese people a triumphant victory.
The reason that I bring this up is because the American neo-conservative vision is becoming reality before our eyes. The radical democratic transformation of the Middle East has begun. Democracy and freedom are contagious, and what the US has accomplished in Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be contained by borders. What happened in Lebanon, the successful elections in Iraq and Afganistan, local elections recently held in Saudi Arabia, Israel and the Palestinians finally working for peace, Libya giving up its nuclear weapons program, etc.......these are all the products of President Bush's grand vision for the Middle East. When it is all said and done, the neoconservatives are going to be proven to be right and all the liberals, the Europeans, and anyone else who doubted the US will have egg on their face again (just like when they doubted President Reagan and the arms build up that ultimately led to the end of the cold war. As history shows us, liberals are always wrong when it comes to foreign policy. Iraq will be no different.)
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your right
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When its all said and done, its gonna be vietnam times 10.
America= 50 Cent
You wont be going diamond forever ese
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When its all said and done, its gonna be vietnam times 10.
America= 50 Cent
You wont be going diamond forever ese
More brilliant analysis from the pizza delivery boy. Not only does he provide insightful political commentary like that, but he can also deliver your pizza to you in 30 minutes or less. What a multi-talented guy this OG Techniec guy is.......
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As history shows us, liberals are always wrong when it comes to foreign policy. Iraq will be no different.)
LOL. Except you forgot about the liberals that said there were no WMD in Iraq. You forgot about the liberals that said Bush was crazy to suggest Saddam had ties to al-queda. And apparently the liberal stance on the vietnamese war completely eludes you.
You shuold really learn to apologzie every now and then for these absurd statements.
You were the guy who called the Iraq elections the first democratic election in the middle east. I called you on it, and you just ran away.
Are you practicing for a career as a GOP rhetorician?
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You were the guy who called the Iraq elections the first democratic election in the middle east. I called you on it, and you just ran away.
Iraq was the first national democratic election in the history of the Middle East. What other country was?
And liberals never said WMD's didn't exist in Iraq. All intelligence services across the globe said they had them. Even Bill Clinton spoke about Iraq's weapons programs in his state of the union speeches. They existed, they just have not been found. They are probably in another country like Syria right now. But liberals never disputed their existence, just the reasoning for going to war.
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Once again we have CWalker talking out of his loose ass. Lebanon is not controlled by Syria. That's like saying every country the U.S. has troops in is controlled by the U.S. Also, there is no proof that the Syrian government was behind the attacks. There's speculation, just like there was "speculation" about WMDs in Iraq, speculation about you being a fudgepacker, etc.. you get the point.
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As history shows us, liberals are always wrong when it comes to foreign policy. Iraq will be no different.)
LOL. Except you forgot about the liberals that said there were no WMD in Iraq. You forgot about the liberals that said Bush was crazy to suggest Saddam had ties to al-queda. And apparently the liberal stance on the vietnamese war completely eludes you.
You shuold really learn to apologzie every now and then for these absurd statements.
You were the guy who called the Iraq elections the first democratic election in the middle east. I called you on it, and you just ran away.
Are you practicing for a career as a GOP rhetorician?
Ant, you should apologize. It was a liberal who got us in to Vietnam in the first place, and a Republican who got us out. If that war would have been fought the right way it could have been won, not saying that I agree with the Vietnam War.
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I have said it before and I'll say it again... when it comes to foreign policy, there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans... their goals are the same... If the Republicans do something today, the Democrats will criticize it, even though they would've done the exact same thing.... and if the Democrats do something similar next time around, the Republicans will criticize it... they're just 2 hypocritical bitches wanting the same thing
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I have said it before and I'll say it again... when it comes to foreign policy, there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans... their goals are the same... If the Republicans do something today, the Democrats will criticize it, even though they would've done the exact same thing.... and if the Democrats do something similar next time around, the Republicans will criticize it... they're just 2 hypocritical bitches wanting the same thing
I tend to agree 75% of the time.
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When its all said and done, its gonna be vietnam times 10.
America= 50 Cent
You wont be going diamond forever ese
More brilliant analysis from the pizza delivery boy. Not only does he provide insightful political commentary like that, but he can also deliver your pizza to you in 30 minutes or less. What a multi-talented guy this OG Techniec guy is.......
Woman, you finally grew the balls to mention my name? After how many years lol? So tell me, you c walking Polack you, why you have the nerve to mention political commentary, when you wouldnt know Politics if it fucked your loose mother in the ass?
Shouldnt you be cowering in fear that Ali and Mohamed are planning to send United Airway Planes into that hick town somewhere in the Ohio backwoods? Or perhaps purchasing duct tape at your local supermarket? Reading some Ann Coulter or Dinesh D'Souza?
Now, bounce out of here before I take u serious, little one.
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A few responses:
Iraq was the first national democratic election in the history of the Middle East. What other country was?
And liberals never said WMD's didn't exist in Iraq. All intelligence services across the globe said they had them. Even Bill Clinton spoke about Iraq's weapons programs in his state of the union speeches. They existed, they just have not been found. They are probably in another country like Syria right now. But liberals never disputed their existence, just the reasoning for going to war.
It must be nice to have the luxury of making up your own version reality.
Ant, you should apologize. It was a liberal who got us in to Vietnam in the first place, and a Republican who got us out. If that war would have been fought the right way it could have been won, not saying that I agree with the Vietnam War.
No actually I shouldn't. Of course I am well aware of who got us into vietnam, but there is a difference between the actions of democrats and the opinions of liberals.
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"Has anyone been paying attention to what is happening in Lebanon? If you don't know, Lebanon is a small Arab country that is controlled by Syria. The Syrian army occupies the country and they oppress and torture the Lebanese populaion. A few weeks ago, a former prime minister of Lebanon was assasinated by Syria. Well, the people of Lebanon have apparently had enough because since then they have taken to the streets to protest the Syrian presence and have called for independence and freedom. Those kind of protests have been revolutionary in that part of the world and would have been unthinkable just years ago. And today the pro Syrian politicians in Lebanon have resigned in response to the dramatic public pressure, giving the Lebanese people a triumphant victory."
Yesterday was one of the best days of my life even though i was in bed sick and couldn't go to the protests (I'll be there next time). Seeing the muslims and christians unified and protesting together in a place where 15 years ago we were killing each other was just a site to behold ... just incredible
And Hariri's sister's (who's a member of parlament) speech in front of parlament was just so emotional and cut the goverment so deep it was beautiful
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"Lebanon is not controlled by Syria"
are you fucking kidding me ? they're dictating everything to the Lebanese goverment , and not just the big things I'm talking if a public school principal is gonna get named the Syrians have to approve it , the economical agreements between the two countrys ALWAYS favor Syria because those cocksuckers in the goverment sold us out for a seat in parlament or the presdiency or to become ministers. So please before u say Lebanon is NOT controlled by Syria check ur facts.
They got in this position because of our weak leaders , and because we (the christians) destroyed each other at the tail end of the civil war because of two stupid leaders in Geagea and Aoun who should have unified there ranks ... It's our fault but God willing they're leaving and they're leaving forever
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will it still be part of Bush's plan for the region when the people democraticly elect an overtly anti american government. btw... Mubarak (sp?) is going to allow multi party elections in egypt also.
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Fathom
Ant, you should apologize. It was a liberal who got us in to Vietnam in the first place, and a Republican who got us out. If that war would have been fought the right way it could have been won, not saying that I agree with the Vietnam War.
eisenhower / nixon era republicans were not conservative by today's standards. nixon signed off on epa regulations, osha, section 8 housing and welfare programs iirc. most liberals would be doing back flips to have a guy like nixon in the white house today. bob dole stated that richard nixon couldn't win the republican nomination now a days because he's too liberal. don't smear the good name of richard m nixon by portraying him as a conservative republican of these times.
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don't smear the good name of richard m nixon by portraying him as a conservative republican of these times.
LOL
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Somebody watches too much Fox News.
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Siko-lic-no bitch azz niggaz, So when you see the B-D-O-double G, sleep creep low:
Somebody watches too much Fox News.
i don't know that the issue is that simple.
CWalker187:
A few weeks ago, a former prime minister of Lebanon was assasinated by Syria. Well, the people of Lebanon have apparently had enough because since then they have taken to the streets to protest the Syrian presence and have called for independence and freedom.
alot of people believe that the cia may have been behind that assassination, and that the cia is also behind these protests (organizationally) in order to garner public outrage against syria, and ultimately justify a u.s. military intervention. george bush does not care about the lebanese people, they are pawns against syria. just like the iraqi people were pawns against saddam. the u.s. has been building a case for military action against syria for some time. look at the syrian accountability act of 2003. all of a sudden with this assassination the pressure and attention is suddenly on syria. very convenient for the u.s.
local elections recently held in Saudi Arabia
saudi arabia has faced 0 pressure from this administration. women are not allowed to vote or participate in these local elections. there is no focus at all on this regime. what does the state dept think of saudi arabia?
The Government's human rights record remained poor overall with continuing serious problems, despite some progress. Citizens did not have the right to change their government. Security forces continued to abuse detainees and prisoners, arbitrarily arrest, and hold persons in incommunicado detention. There were cases in which Mutawwa'in continued to intimidate, abuse, and detain citizens and foreigners. Most trials were closed, and defendants usually appeared before judges without legal counsel. Security forces arrested and detained reformers, some of whom continued at year's end to seek an open trial. The Government reportedly infringed on individuals' privacy rights. The Government continued to restrict freedoms of speech and press, assembly, association, religion, and movement. There was widespread public perception that corruption by some members of the royal family and in the executive branch of the Government was a serious problem. There was little government transparency, especially notable in official budgets, and with no laws providing the right to access government information. The Government continued to discriminate against women, ethnic and religious minorities and to impose strict limitations on worker rights.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41731.htm
i wouldn't brag on successes in saudi arabia.
Israel and the Palestinians finally working for peace
after the assassination (poisoning) of arafat. remember these guys have been at the table and close to deals in the past. clinton had them pretty close. this is no huge triumph of bush's policies. well, maybe assassinating arafat was a huge triumph but we don't know who was behind that.
Libya giving up its nuclear weapons program, etc..
what about korea kicking out the iaea and developing several nuclear warheads? north korea was at the table and bush refused to talk. many people feel he dropped the ball completely there.
When it is all said and done, the neoconservatives are going to be proven to be right
you may be on to something there. but it isn't going to be the spread of democracy and freedom. there is no pressure on jordan, saudia arabia, qatar, turkey...etc. the u.s. only pressures regimes they don't like. the u.s. may succeed in destabilizing the region, weakening all the major players...etc. but there is no legitimate push towards freedom and democracy and prosperity. it was never about that.
just like when they doubted President Reagan and the arms build up that ultimately led to the end of the cold war.
ronald reagan was a failure that unnecessarily prolongued the cold war with fooling talk about evil empires and such. the soviet union collapsed on it's own; but for decades they had longed for improved and productive relations with the u.s.; something started under the nixon administration.
ronald reagan is a joke.
As history shows us, liberals are always wrong when it comes to foreign policy. Iraq will be no different.)
this isn't a matter of right and wrong. if the neo-cons succeed in iraq (and really they already have), the iraqi people will not be better off. that would be a nice by-product, but was never the main agenda.
we've already looked at saudi arabia. here's qatar:
Although there were some improvements in a few areas, serious problems remained. Citizens did not have the right to peacefully change their government. The Government continued to restrict the freedoms of speech and press. The Government placed some limits on the freedom of movement of women. In practice, tradition and custom limited women's rights. Some domestic servants, who are not covered under the new labor law, were mistreated and abused and worked under conditions that were tantamount to indentured servitude. Noncitizens, who make up more than 75 percent of local residents, sometimes faced discrimination in the workplace. Foreign laborers were disadvantaged in cases involving the performance of labor contracts. They did not receive the same allowance and salaries that were given to citizens in equivalent positions. Further, they were not allowed to leave the country or change employment without the permission of their current sponsor. Unskilled foreign workers continued to suffer from the lack of a minimum wage in the private sector. The country was also a destination for trafficked persons
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41730.htm
jordan:
Although the Government respected human rights in some areas, its overall record continued to reflect many problems. Reported continuing abuses included police abuse and mistreatment of detainees, allegations of torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, lack of transparent investigations and of accountability within the security services resulting in a climate of impunity, denial of due process of law stemming from the expanded authority of the State Security Court and interference in the judicial process, infringements on citizens' privacy rights, harassment of members of opposition political parties, and significant restrictions on freedom of speech, press, assembly, and association. Citizens did not have the right to change their government. Citizens may participate in the political system through their elected representatives to Parliament; however, the King has discretionary authority to appoint and dismiss the Prime Minister, members of the cabinet and upper house of Parliament, to dissolve Parliament, and to establish public policy. The Government imposed some limits on freedom of religion, and there was official and societal discrimination against adherents of unrecognized religions. There were some restrictions on freedom of movement. Violence against women, restrictions on women's rights, and societal discrimination against women persisted. "Honor" crimes continued. Child abuse remained a problem, and discrimination against Palestinians persisted. Abuse of foreign domestics was a problem.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41724.htm
turkey:
The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; although there were significant improvements in a number of areas, serious problems remained. Security forces reportedly killed 18 persons during the year; torture, beatings, and other abuses by security forces remained widespread. Conditions in most prisons remained poor. Security forces continued to use arbitrary arrest and detention, although the number of such incidents declined. Lengthy trials remained a problem. Convictions of security officials accused of torture remained rare, and courts generally issued light sentences when they did convict. In politically sensitive cases, the judiciary continued to reflect a legal structure that favors State interests over individual rights. The State and Government continued to limit freedom of speech and press; harassment of journalists and others for controversial speech remained a serious problem. At times, the Government restricted freedom of assembly and association. Police beat, abused, detained, and harassed some demonstrators. The Government maintained some restrictions on religious minorities and on some forms of religious expression. At times, the Government restricted freedom of movement. The Government restricted the activities of some political parties and leaders, and sought to close the pro-Kurdish Democratic People's Party (DEHAP). The Government continued to harass, indict, and imprison human rights monitors, journalists, and lawyers for the views they expressed in public. Violence against women remained a serious problem, and discrimination against women persisted. Trafficking in persons, particularly women, remained a problem. Child labor was a widespread problem.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41713.htm
turkey is the only "democracy" there. the u.s. claims of "freedom and democracy" are pure hypocrisy given the track records of their allies in the region.
israel also has numerous problems:
The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas. Some members of the security forces abused Palestinian detainees. Conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities remained poor. During the year, the Government detained on security grounds but without charge thousands of persons in Israel. (Most were from the occupied territories and their situation is covered in the annex.) The Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens. The Government did not recognize marriages performed by non-Orthodox rabbis, compelling many citizens to travel abroad to marry. The Government interfered with individual privacy in some instances.
Discrimination and societal violence against women persisted, although the Government continued to address these problems. Trafficking in and abuse of women and foreign workers continued to be problems. Discrimination against persons with disabilities persisted
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm
these reports are detailed. this is the u.s. state dept reporting, and the u.s. own allies have horrific track records. and there is no pressure on any of these states.
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the u.s. own allies have horrific track records. and there is no pressure on any of these states.
It's okay if they're puppets... as long as they do what we tell them, they can do whatever else they want.
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syria comtemplating a partial withdrawal of troops as international pressure mounts:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/04/syria/index.html
Assad will make an unexpected address to Syria's parliament on Saturday, the country's official news agency announced Friday.
Lebanon's defense minister said he expected Assad to announce a pullback of troops to the Bekaa region in eastern Lebanon, near the Syrian border, but not a full withdrawal, The Associated Press reported.
"No one knows what President Assad will say except the president himself, but we expect President Assad to announce a redeployment to the Bekaa region," Abdul-Rahim Murad, a member of the pro-Syrian government in Beirut, told AP.
When asked whether the redeployment meant a full withdrawal, Murad answered, "No."
Former Lebanese Deputy Prime Minister Issam Fares told CNN he expected Assad to announce the timing of a partial withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, in addition to a redeployment to the border and an eventual pullout.
bush responds that a partial withdrawal is not enough:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/03/04/us.syria.ap/index.html
President Bush on Friday flatly rejected any partial withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, saying he will not accept the kind of "half-measures" Damascus is expected to propose as a compromise.
"There are no half-measures at all," Bush said during an event here on his Social Security proposals. "When the United States and France say withdraw, we mean complete withdrawal, no halfhearted measures."
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"alot of people believe that the cia may have been behind that assassination, and that the cia is also behind these protests (organizationally) in order to garner public outrage against syria, and ultimately justify a u.s. military intervention. george bush does not care about the lebanese people, they are pawns against syria. just like the iraqi people were pawns against saddam. the u.s. has been building a case for military action against syria for some time. look at the syrian accountability act of 2003. all of a sudden with this assassination the pressure and attention is suddenly on syria. very convenient for the u.s."
oh yeah because Syria are so above assassinations ... plz. what about bachir gemayel , rene mouawad, kamal jumblatt , 17000 lebanese prisonners that no1 knows anything about ,100s of massacres, bachar el assad's dad killed 20 000 civilians in hama (which is in Syria) and bulldozed over them.
How come every key political leader that has stood up against the syrians always ends up dead?
that's the way they operate : off the with the resistance's head and the movement will die down . They failed to realise that this time they went too far.
Also how about the fact that when Hariri was called up (not invited , called up) to damascus , Bachar told him something along the line of :"a no to Lahoud is a no to me , you will vote yes to Lahoud or the city u built will be destroyed on you" L'orient le jour(i'm sure they have some kind of an internet site , not sure if it's in english) reported this and used the phrase "barely veiled threats".
So yeah , Fuck the ba'athist party , fuck Syria and there dogs in Lebanon.
As for the CIA being behind the protests (organising them) , COME ON!!!!!!! We have protested before under the security forces beatings and oppression , this is just the 1st time it's anything of this scale (and no it's not because the CIA is behind it , it's because parents , childred , grandparents , college students of christian , sunni and Druze backgrounds came in droves because we ARE FED UP)
and the 1st time u guys hear anything of it , so guys like u and the "many people" who believe that the CIA are behind this ,based there theories on what they've heard over the past 2-3 weeks.
the link at the end of my sig is a small history of Syrian "activities" during the war.
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Has anyone been paying attention to what is happening in Lebanon? If you don't know, Lebanon is a small Arab country that is controlled by Syria. The Syrian army occupies the country and they oppress and torture the Lebanese populaion. A few weeks ago, a former prime minister of Lebanon was assasinated by Syria. Well, the people of Lebanon have apparently had enough because since then they have taken to the streets to protest the Syrian presence and have called for independence and freedom. Those kind of protests have been revolutionary in that part of the world and would have been unthinkable just years ago. And today the pro Syrian politicians in Lebanon have resigned in response to the dramatic public pressure, giving the Lebanese people a triumphant victory.
The reason that I bring this up is because the American neo-conservative vision is becoming reality before our eyes. The radical democratic transformation of the Middle East has begun. Democracy and freedom are contagious, and what the US has accomplished in Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be contained by borders. What happened in Lebanon, the successful elections in Iraq and Afganistan, local elections recently held in Saudi Arabia, Israel and the Palestinians finally working for peace, Libya giving up its nuclear weapons program, etc.......these are all the products of President Bush's grand vision for the Middle East. When it is all said and done, the neoconservatives are going to be proven to be right and all the liberals, the Europeans, and anyone else who doubted the US will have egg on their face again (just like when they doubted President Reagan and the arms build up that ultimately led to the end of the cold war. As history shows us, liberals are always wrong when it comes to foreign policy. Iraq will be no different.)
It's funny that you have so much sympathy for what you call Syria's terrbile occupation of Lebanon. I'm sure you stay up nights feeling so sorry for those occupied Lebanese under Syrian control. I just want to remind you, so that you can sleep better at night, that if you are so comfortable with America's occupation in Iraq of 150,000 troops then the Lebanese occupation is extremely mild in comparison, consisting of less than 15,000 troops. And while Syria has now supposedly assisinated a Lebanese leader, I want to remind you that America has assisinated 100's of Iraqi leaders. And you claim without proof that Syria has tortured and oppressed Lebanese citizens, but I assure you with proof that America has made national headlines for it's torture and abuses of Iraqi citizens that surpasses the torture of Sadaam.
And by the way, Isreal is not really going to pull out, they are still destroying houses as we speak, and they are still driving deeper into Palestinian territory, this is the reality on the ground.
By the way, are you outraged about Isreal's occupation and destruction of Lebanon in the 80's? Because it far surpassed that of Syria.
Syria leaving Lebanon pales in comparison to America and Isreal's occupation of Iraq, Afganistan, and Palestine.
Your skewed vision of reality openly displays your prejudice.
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Fattak:
How come every key political leader that has stood up against the syrians always ends up dead?
that's the way they operate : off the with the resistance's head and the movement will die down.
what people are questioning is the timing of this particular assassination. this isn't a question of syria's history in the region. it's easy to frame a murderer that already has blood on their hands.
As for the CIA being behind the protests (organising them) , COME ON!!!!!!!
the cia is known to fund and provide strategic guidance to opposition groups of regimes antagonistic to the u.s. that is what they do. noone is saying the cia was disguised and staged the protests. what people are saying is that the cia is adding fuel to the flames.
you are arguing from the perspective of the lebanese people that are unhappy with syria. people are not arguing in defense of syria; however they are suspicious that the u.s. or israel is using the lebanese people as pawns against syria.
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your right
Your from the Middle East! Your Iranian!
And you agree with CWalkers vision of the middle east, CWalker would rather see your people have their country bombed and pillaged, then to see your country trading it's goods and resources on an open market and developing a few weapons for it's defense. That's what they are talking about doing right now. They are applying economic sanctions to starve your people, and want to destroy your homeland just because your people want to develop some nuclear energy. You agree with all that? You agree with this propaganda? This is CWalkers vision for the middle east and your country. Turn you into hard workers and laborers for US corporations privatizing land in your country, and if your not willing to do that then they'll blow your head off.
That makes me sick, you would probably join them in the destruction of your homeland (Iran) if they told you you would get to have sex with Jennifer Anistan (or any white woman) when it was all over.
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That makes me sick, you would probably join them in the destruction of your homeland (Iran) if they told you you would get to have sex with Jennifer Anistan (or any white woman) when it was all over.
LMAO
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"the cia is known to fund and provide strategic guidance to opposition groups of regimes antagonistic to the u.s. that is what they do. noone is saying the cia was disguised and staged the protests. what people are saying is that the cia is adding fuel to the flames."
it's possible that they *helped* organised the protests.But as for "adding fuel to the fire" believe me , it's not needed. If anything the protests helped channel people's energy into something that's actually productive , seeing as how a lot of people where I'm from , wanted to dust off the old AKs and M-16s and vent there frustrations on the Syrian workers in Lebanon who they suspect of being "agents", but instead decided to go to the protests because they saw that they can actually change something.
So yeah thank you CIA for helping contain the situation.
"you are arguing from the perspective of the lebanese people that are unhappy with syria. people are not arguing in defense of syria; however they are suspicious that the u.s. or israel is using the lebanese people as pawns against syria."
We don't care what Bush's motives are , he wants Syria out , we want Syria out . We don't care if Bush wants the Syrians out because he likes us or whatever , all we want is our freedom (being able to speak ur mind and not worry about a Syrian/Lebanese agent listenning in etc........).Those are things that we've had to claw and scratch for ever since the war ended, and now is the time we get em back.
And if Bush can help us achieve that then fine , we don't care if he's a real "friend" , all we care about is that he's the "enemy of our enemy" and we have a common goal with different reasons maybe , but the same goal nonetheless (SP?)
cheap plug: plz use the link at the bottom of my sig for a brief history of the Syrian's crimes against civilians etc
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fattak:
what's your position on a partial withdrawal to the borders vs a full withdrawal? is a partial withdrawal satisfactory in your view? (it doesn't sound like it, but i'm curious)
what's your take on bashar al-assad? since he's a much weaker leader than his father was, do you think he'll cave in to the pressure, or do you think he'll become more resolved and obstinate listening to the hardliners?
i'm looking at your link, i initially didn't see it as i browse the forums with signatures off.
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1. Damn, Sunset Blvd got scolded like a lil child
2. Fattak is right, re: oppression of people leaves em not givin a fuck about what ever the intentions of the "liberator" are. Its the same reason Iraq hasnt dwelled into total anarchy, its the reason the Taliban fell so quickly, and it applies to Lebanon as well.
3. Fuck Bashir Gamayel. That is all.
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first of all tech, deliver my pizza first and then talk...afgans arent even 2nd in line
and to infinite, obviously its hard to see how "your right" is said but still i still find it unbelievable that people on this board dont actually know where i stand on these things after all these years.......but let me explain, you know when one of your friends says a bunch of bullshit and you dont feel like replying to him and your just like.....yup, exactly, your right man...just so they'll be like what? really you agree?
your right
That makes me sick, you would probably join them in the destruction of your homeland (Iran) if they told you you would get to have sex with Jennifer Anistan (or any white woman) when it was all over.
actually yes, if it was jennifer aniston,definitley, lol
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"fattak:
what's your position on a partial withdrawal to the borders vs a full withdrawal? is a partial withdrawal satisfactory in your view? (it doesn't sound like it, but i'm curious)"
we have waited what ? 20 some years? if this is a "true" 1st step in Syria's total withdrawal from Lebanon withing a reasonable timeline (before the elections) then , I'm ok with it. If it's another one of Syria's stalling moves then this time we won't fall for it and protests will continue.
"what's your take on bashar al-assad? since he's a much weaker leader than his father was, do you think he'll cave in to the pressure, or do you think he'll become more resolved and obstinate listening to the hardliners?"
he's a lot weaker than Hafez el-Assad , his brother was suppose to take his father's place but he died (while horseback riding i think) and Bachar was basically the replacement . A few days b4 the assassination i was thinking "u know what ? he hasn't done anything that's even remotely close to what his dad has done , maybe he's not so bad" then of course I realised that he hasn't done anything to make the situation better (keeping the security forces in place) not to mention the fact that Syria gets 5 billion dollars a year semi-illegally from Lebanon (which for Lebanon is a HUGE sum) etc .So yeah don't really like the guy.
Will he cave? he will if he's smart , but the Ba'athist regime will fall in Syria , it's just a matter of time , so whatever he does , he's on borrowed time.
"Fuck Bashir Gamayel. That is all."
I don't know why , but i smiled at that .... He has blood on his hands like all the other war time leaders which is somehting i'm not proud of , but he has sacrificed and lost a lot for Lebanon (his 2 year old girl was killed in a car bomb intended for him) , he's a true patriot and martyr for the Lebanese cause.
If it wasn't for him and men like him who stood up to the aggression of the Palestinians , Syrians and their allies in Lebanon , the christians of Lebanon would be living in refugee camps in Canada or something.
And if ur saying "fuck him" because "he was a traitor who collaborated with the imperial zionist enemy" or some bullshit like that ... then u don't deserve my time
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O.G. Techniec:
2. Fattak is right, re: oppression of people leaves em not givin a fuck about what ever the intentions of the "liberator" are. Its the same reason Iraq hasnt dwelled into total anarchy, its the reason the Taliban fell so quickly, and it applies to Lebanon as well.
how is iraq outside the green zone?
and again, the lebanese opposition are being used as pawns to weaken syria. why isn't there an equal amount of pressure being applied to israel to withdraw from the golan heights completely?
syria would be much more accepting of evacuating from lebanon if the had the golan heights returned and a peace agreement on that front.
this is a move to shift the balance of power in that region again and weaken syria.
fattak:
Will he cave? he will if he's smart , but the Ba'athist regime will fall in Syria , it's just a matter of time , so whatever he does , he's on borrowed time.
bashar is trying to dance a fine line here with this pullback that he's announced. he's facing this pressure but has nothing to show for it if he caves. if the ba'athist regime were to fall it surely would only fall to a military coup. this would effectively supplant his own supporters that he's put in place since he assumed office, and lead to the hardliners ruling syria. this doesn't seem like a desireable situation from the christian lebanese perspective.
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Fattak:
If it wasn't for him and men like him who stood up to the aggression of the Palestinians , Syrians and their allies in Lebanon , the christians of Lebanon would be living in refugee camps in Canada or something.
And if ur saying "fuck him" because "he was a traitor who collaborated with the imperial zionist enemy" or some bullshit like that ... then u don't deserve my time
wait, weren't the syrians supporting the christian lebanese against the plo and muslim factions up until gamayel forged those close ties with israel?
surely he chose the wrong side there.
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this is a move to shift the balance of power in that region again and weaken syria.
Bingo.
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"wait, weren't the syrians supporting the christian lebanese against the plo and muslim factions up until gamayel forged those close ties with israel?"
yes in 1976 when the muslims were against them (which is why they killed kamal junblat) the Syrians but after that the Syrians much, like today, started meddling and wanted more power than they have any right to have which led to the christians turning against them. Bachir saw that if Syria were to stay in Lebanon , Lebanon would lose it's independence because Lebanon is Syria's Kuwait (as in they want it to be part of their country).So he saw further then any other leaders saw at the time and when Lebanon and israel sign a peace treaty and the words "working with Israel" aren't so Taboo , the muslims will realise that he did it FOR Lebanon. Sure he did it for the christians 1st , but as he proved by refusing to sign the treaty with Israel without consulting the Sunni prime minister , he did want to be a leader for all the Lebanese people.
"if the ba'athist regime were to fall it surely would only fall to a military coup. this would effectively supplant his own supporters that he's put in place since he assumed office, and lead to the hardliners ruling syria. this doesn't seem like a desireable situation from the christian lebanese perspective."
I'm not saying it'll be good for us , I'm just saying it'll happen , plus I don't know who these hardliners are , for all I know the CIA are telling them to advise Assad to stay in Lebanon to justify an attack , or even maybe Assad is telling them to say those things so he can look like a moderate .... who knows ?
whatever happens, like the motto says "wa nabka" (we stay)
"I just want to remind you, so that you can sleep better at night, that if you are so comfortable with America's occupation in Iraq of 150,000 troops then the Lebanese occupation is extremely mild in comparison, consisting of less than 15,000 troops"
14 000 troops , more than 60 000 intelligence officers , and if u count the Lebanese security forces who are Syria's puppets u'd get a force of over 100 000 , also , consider the fact that Lebanon is maybe 10 times smaller than Iraq , and u don't have an occupation that's "extremely mild in comparison"
"And you claim without proof that Syria has tortured and oppressed Lebanese citizens, but I assure you with proof that America has made national headlines for it's torture and abuses of Iraqi citizens that surpasses the torture of Sadaam."
without proof ? do i have to call in those who had there nails pulled out by the syrians or is me saying "believe me they tortured Lebanese citisens" enough for you?
If u want MORE info on Syrian torture methods , plz use the link at the end of my sig , skip past the massacres and assassinations to the biggest paragraphe , that's the one on torture
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There is no such thing as "your a Syrian", "your a Lebanese"... when you say There is nothing worthy of worship but Allah, and you testify to this with your heart, it erases nationalism, tribalism, and racism. Allah says in the Noble Qu'ran, "And the believers are but a single brotherhood." There is no Syria and Lebanon, these are unnatural borders, these are Muslim people, displaying their lack of love and trust for their brothers, and they need to deal with this problem as Muslims and not as nations and tribes.
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im a christian
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first of all tech, deliver my pizza first and then talk...afgans arent even 2nd in line
Ok, Doggy, Ill deliver your pizza right away. Then maybe you can come up with something original.
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O.G. Techniec:
2. Fattak is right, re: oppression of people leaves em not givin a fuck about what ever the intentions of the "liberator" are. Its the same reason Iraq hasnt dwelled into total anarchy, its the reason the Taliban fell so quickly, and it applies to Lebanon as well.
how is iraq outside the green zone?
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Iraq outside the Green zone is actually decent, outside off the Sunni Triangle. The only place over run by anarchy is Al Anbar province. With the exception of flare ups in Mosul, the entire Kurdish north has been stable and experimenting with democracy for years now. At this point, the hatred of Saddam > the hatred of AMericans on the ground . That could change, but it hasnt yet.
And i said Fuck Bashir Gamayel because he has blood on his hands. And for you to conviniently ignore that and yet still praise him, reveals your biases which is natural. But the lebanese conflict is too complex to simply denounce based on affiliation (Phalange/Israel)
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"And i said Fuck Bashir Gamayel because he has blood on his hands. And for you to conviniently ignore that and yet still praise him, reveals your biases which is natural. But the lebanese conflict is too complex to simply denounce based on affiliation (Phalange/Israel)"
no shit ! u mean a MILITIA LEADER in WARTIME has blood on his hands ?
yeah the guy has blood on his hands but what war time leader doesn't ? Junblat? Berri? Assad?Who? they were all ruthless and wanted to impose themselves.
Innocents die , soldiers die that's just the nature of the beast. And if u don't get that then ur 1 lucky guy cause ur bubble hasn't been burst yet.
Bachir Gemayel evolved with the conflict. He went from the militia leader who wanted to turn the mountain into a seperate state for the christians to a guy who wanted to be the president of all Lebanese people , and I honestly believe that he was the only one who could've controlled the situation when no1 else could.If it weren't for him how many more "Damours" would the christians have gone through? huh? how many more unarmed christian villages would've slaughtered by the PLO?
I'm not ignoring anything the guy has done , the good and the bad.I just think that the guy has done more good than bad for me and people like me , he and his men stood up for us in a way that no1 would've (see Zahle and Ashrafieh for proof .. although i do feel sorry for the truck loads of Syrian soldiers that died)
Also , when u talk about "blood on his hands" what events are u talking about ?
Franjieh's assassination? the Tigers getting squashed? what?
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first of all tech, deliver my pizza first and then talk...afgans arent even 2nd in line
Ok, Doggy, Ill deliver your pizza right away. Then maybe you can come up with something original.
I dont need to come up with anything original thats the thing, my presence is enough.
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^ I still love you Doggy
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:'(