West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: Don Rizzle on June 22, 2005, 12:29:27 PM
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US senator sorry for Nazi remarks
More than 500 prisoners are being held at Guantanamo Bay
A US senator has apologised for comparing US interrogation practices at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba to those under Hitler and Stalin.
Dick Durbin has been criticised by Republicans and some fellow Democrats for last week's comments.
They came after he quoted from an FBI report alleging inmates were chained to the floor without food or water.
He has now offered the Senate his "heartfelt apologies", saying he never meant to offend US troops.
"They're the best. I never, ever intended any disrespect for them," the Illinois senator said.
He also apologised to survivors of the Nazi Holocuast.
"I'm sorry if anything that I said caused any offence or pain to those who have such bitter memories of the Holocaust, the greatest moral tragedy of our time," he said.
Recent critics of the high-security detention centre at Guantanamo include former Presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, who has called for its closure.
Amnesty International has branded the camp "the gulag of our times".
But US Vice-President Dick Cheney says there are no plans to close the prison, and describes the detainees as "bad people" and "hardcore".
Many of the 500 men held at the camp have been there for three years without trial.
source bbcnews
whats the big fucking deal he spoke his mind about gauntamino, but theres no reason to apoligise! what happenned to freedom of speach in america?
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Because the idea of comparing Guantanomo to what happened in Russia and Nazy Germany is stupid, retarded, assanine, and outrageous. There were human rights atrocities being coomited in those countries and to say that is what the US military is doing is offensive.
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jumping jacks, lack of sleep and maybe pissing on korans (\=) millions of tortured, gassed, beat and raped people
maybe that's one reason
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Because the idea of comparing Guantanomo to what happened in Russia and Nazy Germany is stupid, retarded, assanine, and outrageous. There were human rights atrocities being coomited in those countries and to say that is what the US military is doing is offensive.
they are similar your patriotism just can't see it
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Because the idea of comparing Guantanomo to what happened in Russia and Nazy Germany is stupid, retarded, assanine, and outrageous. There were human rights atrocities being coomited in those countries and to say that is what the US military is doing is offensive.
they are similar your patriotism just can't see it
you're an idiot, you being a jack ass just can't see it
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i'm with don rizzle.. wtf did they show this guy to make him change his mind?
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they didn't have to show him anything... it's a totally shitty comparison
it's like saying Ja Rule's rap music has had the same impact as all of westcoast rap put together
now if i said that and i didn't retract my statement... i would be seen as the biggest idiot on the board
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ahh yes silly me.. there is a difference.. the nazi's killed the jews. whereas the americans are torturing the muslims!
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and if you qualify stress positions and lack of sleep torture of 500 people (pretty much the same things people go through in boot camp)
to
science experiments that almost always led to death, gassing, starvation and violent beatings to millions
once again, only an idiot would make that kind of comparison
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and if you qualify stress positions and lack of sleep torture of 500 people (pretty much the same things people go through in boot camp)
to
science experiments that almost always led to death, gassing, starvation and violent beatings to millions
once again, only an idiot would make that kind of comparison
yes the numbers are a bit different and maybe the americans arn't trying to exterminate them or experiment on them, they are still torturing muslims and the institution is just a watered down version of the nazi concerntration camps. maybe you think guantamino bay should stay, but that doesn't mean you can't acknowledge the similarities.
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and if you qualify stress positions and lack of sleep torture of 500 people (pretty much the same things people go through in boot camp)
to
science experiments that almost always led to death, gassing, starvation and violent beatings to millions
once again, only an idiot would make that kind of comparison
yes the numbers are a bit different and maybe the americans arn't trying to exterminate them or experiment on them, they are still torturing muslims and the institution is just a watered down version of the nazi concerntration camps. maybe you think guantamino bay should stay, but that doesn't mean you can't acknowledge the similarities.
there's abrely any similarities, it's like saying Ja Rule = all of west coast rap
well they are all rappers so i guess it's similar
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and if you qualify stress positions and lack of sleep torture of 500 people (pretty much the same things people go through in boot camp)
to
science experiments that almost always led to death, gassing, starvation and violent beatings to millions
once again, only an idiot would make that kind of comparison
Comparing US detainment camps to boot camp is every bit as ridiculous as comparing U.S. troops to Nazis. There aren't homicides at bootcamp. People aren't chained in stress positions for days on end at Bootcamp. People aren't left chained to the floor lying in their own shit and piss in bootcamp. And no one goes home from bootcamp with pictures looking anything like the one's that leaked from Abu Graib.
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and if you qualify stress positions and lack of sleep torture of 500 people (pretty much the same things people go through in boot camp)
to
science experiments that almost always led to death, gassing, starvation and violent beatings to millions
once again, only an idiot would make that kind of comparison
Comparing US detainment camps to boot camp is every bit as ridiculous as comparing U.S. troops to Nazis. There aren't homicides at bootcamp. People aren't chained in stress positions for days on end at Bootcamp. People aren't left chained to the floor lying in their own shit and piss in bootcamp. And no one goes home from bootcamp with pictures looking anything like the one's that leaked from Abu Graib.
ok how about SEAL boot camp, where there have been casualties, where they have been beaten to death back in the day...problem solved, want to nitpick some more?
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Amnesty International recently compared the U.S. Guantanamo prison to the Soviet Gulags under Stalin. Here are the facts that they used to draw their conclusion:
Individuals Detained:
Gulag -- 20 million.
Guantanamo -- 750 total.
Number of Camps:
Gulag -- 476 separate camp complexes comprising thousands of individual camps.
Guantanamo -- five small camps on the U.S. military base in Cuba.
Reasons for Imprisonment:
Gulag -- hiding grain; owning too many cows; need for slave labor; being Jewish; being Finnish; being religious; being middle class; having had contact with foreigners; refusing to sleep with the head of Soviet counterintelligence; telling a joke about Stalin.
Guantanamo -- fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan; being suspected of links to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
Red Cross Visits:
Gulag -- none on record.
Guantanamo -- regular visits since January 2002.
Deaths as a Result of Poor Treatment:
Gulag -- multiple millions.
Guantanamo -- no reports of prisoner deaths.
Daily Diet:
Gulag -- meager portions of swill.
Guantanamo -- two hot religiously correct meals per day with constant supply of snacks.
Work Requirements:
Gulag -- forced labor.
Guantanamo -- none.
Medical Treatment:
Gulag -- none.
Guantanamo -- better than the 20 million report "uninsured" American citizens.
Torture Methods:
Gulag -- starvation, beatings, exposure to elements, slave labor.
Guantanamo -- humiliation, standing on the koran
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Is America the only country in the world that could run a prison camp where prisoners gain weight? Between April 2002 and March 2003, the Joint Task Force returned to Afghanistan 19 of the approximately 664 men (from 42 countries) who have been held in the detention camps at the U.S. Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay. Upon leaving, it has been reported, each man received two parting gifts: a brand new copy of the Koran as well as a new pair of jeans. Not the act of generosity that it might first appear, the jeans, at least, turned out to be a necessity. During their stay (14-months on average), the detainees (nearly all of them) had gained an average of 13 pounds.
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These claims were reported by the New Statesman and BBC News in the UK and around the world - yet they were inaccurate. As spiked revealed, the story about Habib being bled on by a naked prostitute did not come from Habib himself but from Jamal al-Harith, one of the freed Brits. We also reported that when Habib was released at the end of January, his version of the story was dramatically different: he said it wasn't a prostitute who taunted him, but an interrogator; she wasn't naked, she was wearing a skirt and top; and she didn't bleed on to him while he was manacled to the floor - she allegedly touched him with something that she said was blood, which is now widely believed to have been red ink from a magic marker
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Amnesty International recently compared the U.S. Guantanamo prison to the Soviet Gulags under Stalin. Here are the facts that they used to draw their conclusion:
Individuals Detained:
Gulag -- 20 million.
Guantanamo -- 750 total.
Number of Camps:
Gulag -- 476 separate camp complexes comprising thousands of individual camps.
Guantanamo -- five small camps on the U.S. military base in Cuba.
Reasons for Imprisonment:
Gulag -- hiding grain; owning too many cows; need for slave labor; being Jewish; being Finnish; being religious; being middle class; having had contact with foreigners; refusing to sleep with the head of Soviet counterintelligence; telling a joke about Stalin.
Guantanamo -- fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan; being suspected of links to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
Red Cross Visits:
Gulag -- none on record.
Guantanamo -- regular visits since January 2002.
Deaths as a Result of Poor Treatment:
Gulag -- multiple millions.
Guantanamo -- no reports of prisoner deaths.
Daily Diet:
Gulag -- meager portions of swill.
Guantanamo -- two hot religiously correct meals per day with constant supply of snacks.
Work Requirements:
Gulag -- forced labor.
Guantanamo -- none.
Medical Treatment:
Gulag -- none.
Guantanamo -- better than the 20 million report "uninsured" American citizens.
Torture Methods:
Gulag -- starvation, beatings, exposure to elements, slave labor.
Guantanamo -- humiliation, standing on the koran
That post pretty much ends the debate.
Seriously, how can you take people seriously when they make these kind of comparisons? It is just nonsense, so why waste your time with idiots?
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and if you qualify stress positions and lack of sleep torture of 500 people (pretty much the same things people go through in boot camp)
to
science experiments that almost always led to death, gassing, starvation and violent beatings to millions
once again, only an idiot would make that kind of comparison
Comparing US detainment camps to boot camp is every bit as ridiculous as comparing U.S. troops to Nazis. There aren't homicides at bootcamp. People aren't chained in stress positions for days on end at Bootcamp. People aren't left chained to the floor lying in their own shit and piss in bootcamp. And no one goes home from bootcamp with pictures looking anything like the one's that leaked from Abu Graib.
ok how about SEAL boot camp, where there have been casualties, where they have been beaten to death back in the day...problem solved, want to nitpick some more?
Nitpick? Please post some evidence (not bullshit, talkin out ur ass, opinions) that a NAVY Seal Bootcamp is anything like what goes on in US detainment camps. If ever there was a NAVY Seal who was beaten to death during training you would condone that? Anyone in their right mind realizes that NAVY Seals are not beaten regularly, held in stress positions, and chained to the floor covered in their own shit and piss.
You already read the article but maybe I should repost it.
http://www.dubcnn.com/connect/index.php?topic=79558.0
We actually beat a US soldier during a training drill to the point where he suffered permanent brain damage, and that was a training drill. Feel free to criticize people who compare the US to Nazis, but don't start talking bullshit like being detaineed Guantanmo is the same as a NAVY Seal Bootcamp. Firstly you've never been to NAVY Seal Bootcamp and secondly, your speaking out your ass w/o even referencing anything (I can garantee, and you will know its the truth when you read this, that you made a bullshit claim with no supporting evidence). Your bullshit claim doesn't even vidicate your original ridiculous statement. There are no regular homicides during NAVY Seal Bootcamp. Are you so dumb as to argue despite the existence of photographs and FBI correspondence showing what happens in US Detainment camps that what goes on there is the equivalent of Bootcamp? Then there is the Bybee Gonzales Memo which you probably know nothing of, but you shouldnt even have to know about it. Only a bigot would continue suggest so arrogantly what you just said. Congratulations you rank right next to Bill O'Reilly who went one step further and told us this sorta stuff is equivalent to Fraternity hazing.
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Amnesty International recently compared the U.S. Guantanamo prison to the Soviet Gulags under Stalin. Here are the facts that they used to draw their conclusion:
Individuals Detained:
Gulag -- 20 million.
Guantanamo -- 750 total.
Number of Camps:
Gulag -- 476 separate camp complexes comprising thousands of individual camps.
Guantanamo -- five small camps on the U.S. military base in Cuba.
Reasons for Imprisonment:
Gulag -- hiding grain; owning too many cows; need for slave labor; being Jewish; being Finnish; being religious; being middle class; having had contact with foreigners; refusing to sleep with the head of Soviet counterintelligence; telling a joke about Stalin.
Guantanamo -- fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan; being suspected of links to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.
Red Cross Visits:
Gulag -- none on record.
Guantanamo -- regular visits since January 2002.
Deaths as a Result of Poor Treatment:
Gulag -- multiple millions.
Guantanamo -- no reports of prisoner deaths.
Daily Diet:
Gulag -- meager portions of swill.
Guantanamo -- two hot religiously correct meals per day with constant supply of snacks.
Work Requirements:
Gulag -- forced labor.
Guantanamo -- none.
Medical Treatment:
Gulag -- none.
Guantanamo -- better than the 20 million report "uninsured" American citizens.
Torture Methods:
Gulag -- starvation, beatings, exposure to elements, slave labor.
Guantanamo -- humiliation, standing on the koran
That post pretty much ends the debate.
Seriously, how can you take people seriously when they make these kind of comparisons? It is just nonsense, so why waste your time with idiots?
You are one of the stupidest people on this forum. Never with real facts, only bullshit rhetoric. Regardless of the stupidity of comparing the US to Nazis, you just plain and simple shouldn't ever open your mouth. Mommy and Daddy obviously brainwashed you at an early age. You are the epitomy of a bigot and far surpass anything Woodrow is capable of.
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lol the only beating that has been confirmed is of a US serviceman so yes i can compare this to navy Seal training, i can even compare it to regular bootcamp
we have done stress positions in bootcamp, there are stress positions in seal training
there have been deaths in both bootcamp and seal training...that right there are more than the deaths at guantanimo
i've seen suicide attempts and people needed pshych evals from stress and abuse during boot camp
i've seen people piss on themselves in boot camp
if you want me to find stories about death and exhaustion in boot camp to shut your dumb ass up....say so...but i know you won't find anything about deaths in gitmo
even most of the stories of torture are made up there without any hard physical proof
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oh look at that, abuse and a death... well that's one thing bootcamp has over guantanimo... looks like my comparison wasn't bad after all
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Recruit’s death highlights brutality of Marine training
By Clare Hurley
25 February 2005
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author
On February 8, US Marine recruit Jason Tharp, 19, from Sutton, West Virginia, died during a training exercise at the Parris Island, South Carolina, Marine base. Under normal circumstances, the tragic drowning of the teenager during the Combat Water Survival Training phase of boot camp might have remained a family tragedy recorded only in military statistics. However, video footage taken February 7 by a local television station turned up documenting physical abuse of the young recruit by his drill instructor. Picked up from local NBC affiliate WIS-TV in South Carolina, the clip aired on the “Today” show on February 18, provoking an outcry and demands for an investigation by his family.
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where's the apology Ant...surely a humble, scholoar of a democrat such as yourself could see that you've been mistaken and proven wrong
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Ant lost.
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You guys obviously have issues. You're asking me to apologize for what reason? First, you might actually wanna give me a chance to respond before you get all giddy that just cuz I didnt type a reply 10 min. after your post I'm admitting error. You're argument is stupid, but it doesnt even need addressing. See below:
US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo and Iraq, Afghanistan: UN source
Fri Jun 24, 9:23 AM ET
Washington has for the first time acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.
The acknowledgement was made in a report submitted to the UN Committee against Torture, said a member of the ten-person panel, speaking on on condition of anonymity.
"They are no longer trying to duck this, and have respected their obligation to inform the UN," the Committee member told AFP.
"They they will have to explain themselves (to the Committee). Nothing should be kept in the dark."
UN sources said it was the first time the world body has received such a frank statement on torture from US authorities.
The Committee, which monitors respect for the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, is gathering information from the US ahead of hearings in May 2006.
Signatories of the convention are expected to submit to scrutiny of their implementation of the 1984 convention and to provide information to the Committee.
The document from Washington will not be formally made public until the hearings.
"They haven't avoided anything in their answers, whether concerning prisoners in Iraq, in Afghanistan or Guantanamo, and other accusations of mistreatment and of torture," the Committee member said.
"They said it was a question of isolated cases, that there was nothing systematic and that the guilty were in the process of being punished."
The US report said that those involved were low-ranking members of the military and that their acts were not approved by their superiors, the member added.
The US has faced criticism from UN human rights experts and international groups for mistreatment of detainees -- some of whom died in custody -- in Afghanistan and Iraq, particularly during last year's prisoner abuse scandal surrounding the Abu Ghraib facility there.
Scores of US military personnel have been investigated, and several tried and convicted, for abuse of people detained during the US-led campaign against Islamic terrorist groups.
At the Guantanamo Bay naval base, a US toehold in Cuba where around 520 suspects of some 40 nationalities are held, allegations of torture have combined with other claims of human rights breaches.
The US has faced widespread criticism for keeping the Guantanamo detainees in a "legal black hole," notably for its refusal to grant them prisoner of war status and allegedly sluggish moves to charge or try them.
Washington's report to the Committee reaffirms the US position that the Guantanamo detainees are classed as "enemy combatants," and therefore do not benefit from the POW status set out in the Geneva Conventions, the Committee member said.
Four UN human rights experts on Thursday slammed the United States for stalling on a request to allow visits to terrorism suspects held at the Guantanamo Bay naval base, and said they planned to carry out an indirect probe of conditions there.
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good job ant..... way to duck the topic.... we're talking about comparisons and you post up an article about torture...
so the questions are...
Can gitmo be compared to nazi's
NO
is my comparison of Gitmo to boot camp totally outrageous like you said?
NO
i win
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You really struggle with logic. I didn't think it was necessary to give an indepth explanation about why your wrong. I figured the facts would speak for themselves. Instead you got confused, or just want to pretend I ducked the argument. So let me explain in simple bullet points.
1. I said it was ridiculous to compare gitmo to Nazi concentration camps from the start, so you don't score any points against me by pointing that out as if I was on the opposite side of the argument.
2. The existence of similiarities doesn't make two things equal. There are similiarities between Gitmo, Abu Graib, and Concentration Camps. There are even similiarities between concentration camps and U.S. prisons. It doesn't mean any of these things are equal. Your argument is essentially, because similiarties exist between bootcamp and Gitmo the experiences of Gitmo detainees are the same as NAVY Seals in bootcamps. That argument proves nothing. You don't win by pointing out the existence of similiarties between bootcamp and gitmo, any more than someone on the opposite sides wins by pointing out the existence of similiarities between Gitmo and Nazi Concentration camps.
3. I didn't need to offer a lengthy counter argument, because the story I posted refuted your nonsense. I figured you could put 2 + 2 together and realize that if the U.S. govt. admits to the existence of torture at gitmo then the experience of Gitmo detainees is not "pretty much the same as" the experience of NAVY Seals in bootcamp. It may be similiar in some regards, but it is also similiar in some regards to the experience of individuals in concentration camps.
4. Really you're arguing a matter of opinion based on imperfect information. You don't know what goes on in Gitmo, you don't know what goes on in NAVY Seal Bootcamp, yet based on the existence of similiarities between the two you seem to think the experiences of people in each closely appoximate each other. Torture and training are not similiar experiences.
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well accordingto the bybee memo, torture can consist of mental anguish.... and seeing as how i've been through boot camp, and just in my unti 3 people tried to commit suicide.... 1 by hanging and two by razors that is consistant with mental torture, and the fact that that marine died from abuse...which gitmo doesn't have any deaths... makes it easy for my comparison
i have first hand experience of one case (boot camp), and the same information about the other case that you have (gitmo)
so i'm one step ahead of you in talking about this subject....have a nice day