West Coast Connection Forum
Lifestyle => Train of Thought => Topic started by: nibs on December 28, 2005, 08:35:35 AM
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Canada blames U.S. for gun violence
Toronto shooting is latest death in a record year
TORONTO, Ontario (AP) -- Canadian officials, seeking to make sense of another fatal shooting in what has been a record year for gun-related deaths, said Tuesday that along with a host of social ills, part of the problem stemmed from what they said was the United States exporting its violence.
Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin and Toronto Mayor David Miller warned that Canada could become like the United States after gunfire erupted Monday on a busy street filled with holiday shoppers, killing a 15-year-old girl and wounding six bystanders -- the latest victims in a record surge in gun violence in Toronto.
The shooting stemmed from a dispute among a group of 10 to 15 youth, and the victim was a teenager out with a parent near a popular shopping mall, police said Tuesday.
"I think it's a day that Toronto has finally lost its innocence," Det. Sgt. Savas Kyriacou said. "It was a tragic loss and tragic day."
While many Canadians take pride in Canadian cities being less violent than their American counterparts, Toronto has seen 78 murders this year, including a record 52 gun-related deaths -- almost twice as many as last year.
"What happened yesterday was appalling. You just don't expect it in a Canadian city," the mayor said.
"It's a sign that the lack of gun laws in the U.S. is allowing guns to flood across the border that are literally being used to kill people in the streets of Toronto," Miller said.
Miller said Toronto, a city of nearly three million, is still very safe compared to most American cities, but the illegal flow of weapons from the United States is causing the noticeable rise in gun violence.
"The U.S. is exporting its problem of violence to the streets of Toronto," he said.
Miller said that while almost every other crime in Toronto is down, the supply of guns has increased and half of them come from the United States.
Miller said the availability of stolen Canadian guns is another problem, and that poverty in certain Toronto neighborhoods is a root cause.
"There are neighborhoods in Toronto where young people face barriers of poverty, discrimination and don't have real hope and opportunity. The kind of programs that we once took for granted in Canada that would reach out to young people have systematically disappeared over the past decade and I think that gun violence is a symptom of a much bigger problem," Miller said.
The escalating violence prompted the prime minister to announce earlier this month that if re-elected on January 23, his government would ban handguns. With severe restrictions already in place against handgun ownership, many criticized the announcement as politics.
Martin, who says up to half of the gun crimes in Canada involve weapons brought in illegally from the United States, raised the smuggling problem when he met with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in October.
Martin offered his condolences in a statement Tuesday, saying he was horrified by the shootings.
"What we saw yesterday is a stark reminder of the challenge that governments, police forces and communities face to ensure that Canadian cities do not descend into the kind of rampant gun violence we have seen elsewhere," Martin said.
John Thompson, a security analyst with the Toronto-based Mackenzie Institute, says the number of guns smuggled from the United States is a problem, but that Canada has a gang problem -- not a gun problem -- and that Canada should stop pointing the finger at the United States.
"It's a cop out. It's an easy way of looking at one symptom rather than addressing a whole disease," Thompson said.
Two suspects were arrested and at least one firearm was seized soon after the shootings Monday. Kyriacou said it was an illegal handgun.
Three females and four males were injured, including one male who is in critical condition. Police believe they were bystanders.
initially i thought this would be about a 50 cent concert...
interesting that the prime minister's focus is on the guns, and the mayor touched on guns, but cited poverty, discrimination and a decrease in social programs to provide opportunities as the root cause. are these two on the same page on this issue?
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They're not on the same page, most likely because they are in different parties so they tow different party lines.
Typical Liberal bullshit, blame the fucking Yanks for their lack of ability to control guns, unlike every other government since Bennett. The problem is the laws are way too lax and not enforced well enough.
And I'm sure the "Hello, bonjour" borders are a huge part of the problem.
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Typical Liberal bullshit, blame the fucking Yanks for their lack of ability to control guns, unlike every other government since Bennett. The problem is the laws and way to lax and not enforced well enough.
What, you think it's not true? You think they don't have the ability to trace these guns? Hate to break it to you, but illegal guns from the United States have been shipped across the borders to both Canada and Mexico and are feeding their arms trades. This is a country where anyone can re-sell weapons in private sales without FFL supervision to anyone they desire, which makes it easy to conduct illegal sales and difficult for authorities to catch them. It would hardly surprise me if American gun runners are reaching out to Canada - their gun laws are stricter than ours, so there must be a great deal of business to be done. How can you enforce laws when they're so easy to break?
This country really needs to work on its gun laws quite a bit. I don't have a problem with people owning guns, but America as a whole needs to understand the devastating effect upon society that unregulated gun ownership can have, both domestically and internationally. As it stands now, most people in this country are so obsessed with their guns that they're unwilling to think about the net effect. Gun sales should not be as unregulated as they are...we need to cut down on illegal "straw purchases" and implement a national gun registry to ensure that weapons are staying only in the hands of legal users and not falling so easily into criminal hands.
Typical conservative bullshit...absolve the U.S. of any responsibility whatsoever, when there is a legitimate argument to be made.
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Typical Liberal bullshit, blame the fucking Yanks for their lack of ability to control guns, unlike every other government since Bennett. The problem is the laws and way to lax and not enforced well enough.
What, you think it's not true? You think they don't have the ability to trace these guns? Hate to break it to you, but illegal guns from the United States have been shipped across the borders to both Canada and Mexico and are feeding their arms trades. This is a country where anyone can re-sell weapons in private sales without FFL supervision to anyone they desire, which makes it easy to conduct illegal sales and difficult for authorities to catch them. It would hardly surprise me if American gun runners are reaching out to Canada - their gun laws are stricter than ours, so there must be a great deal of business to be done. How can you enforce laws when they're so easy to break?
Typical conservative bullshit...absolve the U.S. of any responsibility whatsoever, when there is a legitimate argument to be made.
You know nothing of my country, our borders are a complete joke and then when someone gets arrested the prison has a revolving door. Instead of blaming some other country our government should take responsibility for its own shortcomings, handguns are a very recent phenomenom in the Toronto area, every government from Bennett to Campbell kept violence to a big minimum.
Typical liberal bullshit, blame the US for everything. Like I give a flying fuck about the US, I only care about my own country.
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You know nothing of my country, our borders are a complete joke and then when someone gets arrested the prison has a revolving door. Instead of blaming some other country our government should take responsibility for its own shortcomings, handguns are a very recent phenomenom in the Toronto area, every government from Bennett to Campbell kept violence to a big minimum.
Typical liberal bullshit, blame the US for everything. Like I give a flying fuck about the US, I only care about my own country.
Fine, I'm not saying Canada shouldn't control its borders better. But you cannot say the U.S. has no responsibility - it is quite true that illegal guns can be easily acquired form the U.S. because of how lax our gun control laws are. Maybe you don't give a fuck about this country, but I certainly give a fuck because I LIVE here, and I've seen enough people get killed with guns in my lifetime that I'm quite well aware of the effect it's having upon society.
And I'm not blaming the U.S. for EVERYTHING, but I am saying we do have a responsibility to regulate our own weapons so that they aren't being illegally sold in other countries.
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You know nothing of my country, our borders are a complete joke and then when someone gets arrested the prison has a revolving door. Instead of blaming some other country our government should take responsibility for its own shortcomings, handguns are a very recent phenomenom in the Toronto area, every government from Bennett to Campbell kept violence to a big minimum.
Typical liberal bullshit, blame the US for everything. Like I give a flying fuck about the US, I only care about my own country.
Fine, I'm not saying Canada shouldn't control its borders better. But you cannot say the U.S. has no responsibility - it is quite true that illegal guns can be easily acquired form the U.S. because of how lax our gun control laws are. Maybe you don't give a fuck about this country, but I certainly give a fuck because I LIVE here, and I've seen enough people get killed with guns in my lifetime that I'm quite well aware of the effect it's having upon society.
And I'm not blaming the U.S. for EVERYTHING, but I am saying we do have a responsibility to regulate our own weapons so that they aren't being illegally sold in other countries.
If you let someone stab you, it's your own fault for not defending yourself. However if you do defend yourself and still end up with a wound, it's still partly your fault for not defending yourself well enough as well as that person's fault. That's the way I see it.
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If you let someone stab you, it's your own fault for not defending yourself. However if you do defend yourself and still end up with a wound, it's still partly your fault for not defending yourself well enough as well as that person's fault. That's the way I see it.
OK, homie, that was a WACK analogy. I thought conservatives are all about placing blame on the person who committed the crime? If someone stabs you, that person still has to do time for the crime and accept responsibility. What you've said makes no sense. If guns from the U.S. are getting into Canada because of our lax gun control laws, we still owe it to Canada (whether you care or not) to control them better so that this doesn't happen. Maybe Canada should be enforcing its borders better, but the U.S. should be doing a better job of keeping its gun violence contained.
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Toronto has nothing to worry about. I was watching the news last night, and they compared the number of murders in TO, to the number of murders in Chicago (both cities are about the same size). Tornto had like 78 last year and Chicago had like 430. And Chicago isn't even known for being a dangerous place. For a city of 4-5 million like Toronto, I think it's numbers are still safe.
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Toronto has nothing to worry about. I was watching the news last night, and they compared the number of murders in TO, to the number of murders in Chicago (both cities are about the same size). Tornto had like 78 last year and Chicago had like 430. And Chicago isn't even known for being a dangerous place. For a city of 4-5 million like Toronto, I think it's numbers are still safe.
some people here and on other message boards make tdot sound like new york back in 92, 78 murders thats nothing
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Toronto has nothing to worry about. I was watching the news last night, and they compared the number of murders in TO, to the number of murders in Chicago (both cities are about the same size). Tornto had like 78 last year and Chicago had like 430. And Chicago isn't even known for being a dangerous place. For a city of 4-5 million like Toronto, I think it's numbers are still safe.
some people here and on other message boards make tdot sound like new york back in 92, 78 murders thats nothing
I know, and it's even worse here in Canada. Everyone in Toronto wants it to be New York, they aren't happy with it just being Toronto. Toronto has self-esteem issues.
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If you let someone stab you, it's your own fault for not defending yourself. However if you do defend yourself and still end up with a wound, it's still partly your fault for not defending yourself well enough as well as that person's fault. That's the way I see it.
OK, homie, that was a WACK analogy. I thought conservatives are all about placing blame on the person who committed the crime? If someone stabs you, that person still has to do time for the crime and accept responsibility. What you've said makes no sense. If guns from the U.S. are getting into Canada because of our lax gun control laws, we still owe it to Canada (whether you care or not) to control them better so that this doesn't happen. Maybe Canada should be enforcing its borders better, but the U.S. should be doing a better job of keeping its gun violence contained.
Obviously the person who would receive the punishment would and should be the person who did the stabbing, but the point remains the same. Sorry to be "wack" there homie.
And for the record, I don't consider myself to be conservative in what you seem to perceive it to be.
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Toronto has nothing to worry about. I was watching the news last night, and they compared the number of murders in TO, to the number of murders in Chicago (both cities are about the same size). Tornto had like 78 last year and Chicago had like 430. And Chicago isn't even known for being a dangerous place. For a city of 4-5 million like Toronto, I think it's numbers are still safe.
But should we accept the status quo or should we demand better? It's very Canadian to say that it's bad, but it could be worse. Only reason Chretien stayed in power for so long.
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Toronto has nothing to worry about. I was watching the news last night, and they compared the number of murders in TO, to the number of murders in Chicago (both cities are about the same size). Tornto had like 78 last year and Chicago had like 430. And Chicago isn't even known for being a dangerous place. For a city of 4-5 million like Toronto, I think it's numbers are still safe.
some people here and on other message boards make tdot sound like new york back in 92, 78 murders thats nothing
78 murders is a lot, it's 78 too many in my opinion.
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they took "Blame Canada" and str8 flipped it
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Don't you just love all these world governments...when something goes wrong, dont accept responsibility just blame America.
It is kind of interesting that Canada's violent crime rate is soaring. Anyone remember Michael Moore's documentary "Bowling for Columbine" where he basically surmised that Canada has less crime because their leadership and their culture are just less violent. So much for that theory.
By the way, you guys might be missing one of the key causes of Canada's increase in crime: violent youth gangs. Even this article briefly mentioned them at the end. It might not be politically correct to discuss this though because you will be called racist. But let's be honest, immigrants from abroad are commiting the overwhelming majority of these crimes. As Canada becomes more diverse it will only get worse.
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Of course, here comes the conservative with the typical conservative take on things...
Don't you just love all these world governments...when something goes wrong, dont accept responsibility just blame America.
It is kind of interesting that Canada's violent crime rate is soaring. Anyone remember Michael Moore's documentary "Bowling for Columbine" where he basically surmised that Canada has less crime because their leadership and their culture are just less violent. So much for that theory.
By the way, you guys might be missing one of the key causes of Canada's increase in crime: violent youth gangs. Even this article briefly mentioned them at the end. It might not be politically correct to discuss this though because you will be called racist. But let's be honest, immigrants from abroad are commiting the overwhelming majority of these crimes. As Canada becomes more diverse it will only get worse.
That doesn't change the fact that Canada's gun crime is still fed by weapons coming from OUR country. Why don't you accept responsibility as well, hypocrite? Blame America? Maybe not, but America does have some role. Face it - this country's gun laws are lax, and criminals are taking advantage of that.
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Toronto has nothing to worry about. I was watching the news last night, and they compared the number of murders in TO, to the number of murders in Chicago (both cities are about the same size). Tornto had like 78 last year and Chicago had like 430. And Chicago isn't even known for being a dangerous place. For a city of 4-5 million like Toronto, I think it's numbers are still safe.
some people here and on other message boards make tdot sound like new york back in 92, 78 murders thats nothing
78 murders is a lot, it's 78 too many in my opinion.
yea i know but c'mon 78 lol, people act like they cant even walk through tdot anymore. New york city had 560 murders this year and everyone is making a big deal about how great it is b/c its the lowest amount since they started recording these statistics in 1960.
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Toronto has nothing to worry about. I was watching the news last night, and they compared the number of murders in TO, to the number of murders in Chicago (both cities are about the same size). Tornto had like 78 last year and Chicago had like 430. And Chicago isn't even known for being a dangerous place. For a city of 4-5 million like Toronto, I think it's numbers are still safe.
some people here and on other message boards make tdot sound like new york back in 92, 78 murders thats nothing
78 murders is a lot, it's 78 too many in my opinion.
yea i know but c'mon 78 lol, people act like they cant even walk through tdot anymore. New york city had 560 murders this year and everyone is making a big deal about how great it is b/c its the lowest amount since they started recording these statistics in 1960.
It seems like a lot to me, maybe not a lot by your standards but 78 is a lot of this area.
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America aint responisble for violence in Canada
Canada's responsible for violence in Canada
"Hip-Hop aint responsible for violence in America
America's responsible for violence in America"
-Shyne Po
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America aint responisble for violence in Canada
Canada's responsible for violence in Canada
"Hip-Hop aint responsible for violence in America
America's responsible for violence in America"
-Shyne Po
I agree 100%.
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Canada has no clue of how to deal with this problem. I mean, our PM's brilliant idea to solve this problem is to "ban" handguns.
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Toronto has nothing to worry about. I was watching the news last night, and they compared the number of murders in TO, to the number of murders in Chicago (both cities are about the same size). Tornto had like 78 last year and Chicago had like 430. And Chicago isn't even known for being a dangerous place. For a city of 4-5 million like Toronto, I think it's numbers are still safe.
some people here and on other message boards make tdot sound like new york back in 92, 78 murders thats nothing
I don't know who would ever try and compare Toronto to New York, particularly in the early 90s. The murder rate here is till under 3 per 100,000, and that's not bad compared to most big cities. That being said it's is getting worse the way it looks. The hand gun murders have doubled from a couple years back and the way the government is being run it looks like it'll get worse before it gets better but it may get better for all I know.
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Canada has no clue of how to deal with this problem. I mean, our PM's brilliant idea to solve this problem is to "ban" handguns.
Which have been banned since 1934. How people vote them back in is beyond me.
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America aint responisble for violence in Canada
Canada's responsible for violence in Canada
"Hip-Hop aint responsible for violence in America
America's responsible for violence in America"
-Shyne Po
I agree 100%.
I don't. Hip-hop also needs to accept its share of the responsbility.
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A better way of summing up my thought would be to compare it to one's house being robbed when the front door was left wide open.
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Hip hop is definitely contributing to crime in all parts of the world. The whole anti authority, fuck the world mentality is being pumped into the heads of kids all across the world. That does have an effect on their behavoir.
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A better way of summing up my thought would be to compare it to one's house being robbed when the front door was left wide open.
While the man leaving the door open would be seen as an idiot, the burglar would still be punished. I don't blame America for our gun problem, but I do feel the americans that are selling the guns or bringing them in should be punished.
I still think the main blame falls on the soft sentencing of those caught with guns, and the media representation of blacks as well as the lack of male role models contributes greatly to the behaviour. Native Americans had it much worse than Blacks in this country and while they have their own set of major issues, gun murder isn't one of them. Asians had it pretty bad here for a while too. Arabs, Sri Lankans, Eastern Europeans, and Africans as well. The major problem is with Jamaican and other Carribean immigrants. The lifestyle they came from which is in the home and the lifestyle they see growing up on TV and in music has to have an effect. Look at all the blacks in Nova Scotia who came with the Underground Railroad; Crime is low, murder is low, productivity is on par wih the rest of Canada. The Carribean black on average is way more likely to fall through the cracks than any other black in this country because of a lot of factors. Media may not be the main one but it has to count for something.
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A better way of summing up my thought would be to compare it to one's house being robbed when the front door was left wide open.
While the man leaving the door open would be seen as an idiot, the burglar would still be punished. I don't blame America for our gun problem, but I do feel the americans that are selling the guns or bringing them in should be punished.
I still think the main blame falls on the soft sentencing of those caught with guns, and the media representation of blacks as well as the lack of male role models contributes greatly to the behaviour. Native Americans had it much worse than Blacks in this country and while they have their own set of major issues, gun murder isn't one of them. Asians had it pretty bad here for a while too. Arabs, Sri Lankans, Eastern Europeans, and Africans as well. The major problem is with Jamaican and other Carribean immigrants. The lifestyle they came from which is in the home and the lifestyle they see growing up on TV and in music has to have an effect. Look at all the blacks in Nova Scotia who came with the Underground Railroad; Crime is low, murder is low, productivity is on par wih the rest of Canada. The Carribean black on average is way more likely to fall through the cracks than any other black in this country because of a lot of factors. Media may not be the main one but it has to count for something.
That's the way I was really trying to say it, that we're being stupid leaving our door open. As Canadians we should be focused on ourselves though, letting American officials deal with the American criminals.
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God America is awesome, the rest of the world even envies our negative traits. It's beautiful how we're the number one country in the world.
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God America is awesome, the rest of the world even envies our negative traits. It's beautiful how we're the number one country in the world.
for real.... I mean, I'm down with some other countries, I just hate the countries that talk shit and think every American is like the politicians they see on the news
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This is what people aint understanding about t dot
toronto is not a dangerous city, it just has dangerous elements and certain areas thats it.
toronto is an extreme safe city, unless ure from the hoods or affiliated in any way.
78 murders only?
u have to understand. we dont have the economic disparities and poverty some parts of the states do. we have a much more secure safety net/. a completely different social culture. a govt that DOESNT want to see its minorities self destruct and we dont face gun stores on every block.
of those 78 murders, almost 60 were hand guns. Almost 80% of homicides were comited by guns. that means the homicides are patterned.
basically the blocks are real hot right now. toronto over all is safe unless block beef spills over into no mans lands and public places like malls/downtowns.
all of torontos hoods are gettin restless mayne, the shit is gonna get alost worse . the next 2 -3 years are gonna be fucked up cuz alot of man dem locked up are coming home from a series of big raids in late 90s early 00s.
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Of course Canadians can't object or not watch the violent material being exported. It's an insult to the Canadian citizens.