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Quote from: Addicted To Beef on February 06, 2006, 01:36:59 AMQuote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on February 05, 2006, 11:29:02 PMQuote from: R-Tistic on January 30, 2006, 09:29:45 AMFor whatever reasons, people from The Bay seem to be defensive as fuck about their music, and they seem to really feel that everybody in LA has somethin against them and that we hate on them but jock their style at the same time. I would like to say that people with this attitude are way off point and got it twisted as hell. Im from San Diego, and believe me homie...it isnt just the Bay area that has that opinion about LA. Not so much the "jockin our style" shit...but the "hate". From what ive seen....rappers, producers, etc from LA seem to think theyre above everyone else in Kali. When the rest of the country thinks of Kali, they think...LA. And that shit i think has gone to a lotta peoples heads. Obviously LA is the biggest city out here, and will probably always get the most spotlight. But u got too many muthafuckas up there who think theyre on some professional shit while the rest of the state is just amateurs. They just need to understand that the rest of Kali doesnt look up to LA like they think we do. We do our own shit, regardless of what LA does. We dont see LA as the "make or break" for Kali. U got 3 of the top 10 biggest cities in the country here with LA, San Diego and Frisco. Plus u got the whole rest of the Bay Area and Sac makin noise. I think the Bay Area, Sac, and Dago gotta respect for eachother...that LA isnt really a part of. U see a lot of our artist workin together with the Bay and Sac artists. More so even then any of us work with LA. Blame who u want for that, but i see it as LA who made it that way. They want the attention...but Kali as a whole aint goin nowhere unless u get a strong push from artists all over. If we dont support eachothers music, from North to South..how do u expect to have the rest of the country get behind it? Like E-40 said...."too many chiefs, and not enough Indians". Everybody wanna be the man.everything runs thru L.A. in cali. thats the way it is. We birth this bitch called the westcoast. All The Top selling artist from Cali are from L.A. county. and u speaking madd bitter being from San Diego. San Diego hip hop doesnt exist unless u talking about that Mexican Cholo bullshit.youre an idiot homie. San Diego has a big independant scene. people like u are the reason that artists sell out. u act as if selling a lot of records makes what u do "quality". the Eastcoast is kickin our ass in sales.....does that mean all their artists are better? No. So dont pretend that LA has all this talent that the rest of the state doesnt, just because some LA artist have more marketing. Talkin about "we birth this bitch"....YOU didnt do shit lol. Ignorant muthafuckas with your mentality will keep the west from comin back to the forefront. You dont see that just creates an LA vs The Rest of Kali mindset. That shit is stupid. Last year ive heard so many people (even on this forum) say they heard more quality albums come out of the Bay and Dago then what came out of LA. Like i said....Quality, not just strong marketing schemes. Get your shit together before u come back and respond fool.
Quote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on February 05, 2006, 11:29:02 PMQuote from: R-Tistic on January 30, 2006, 09:29:45 AMFor whatever reasons, people from The Bay seem to be defensive as fuck about their music, and they seem to really feel that everybody in LA has somethin against them and that we hate on them but jock their style at the same time. I would like to say that people with this attitude are way off point and got it twisted as hell. Im from San Diego, and believe me homie...it isnt just the Bay area that has that opinion about LA. Not so much the "jockin our style" shit...but the "hate". From what ive seen....rappers, producers, etc from LA seem to think theyre above everyone else in Kali. When the rest of the country thinks of Kali, they think...LA. And that shit i think has gone to a lotta peoples heads. Obviously LA is the biggest city out here, and will probably always get the most spotlight. But u got too many muthafuckas up there who think theyre on some professional shit while the rest of the state is just amateurs. They just need to understand that the rest of Kali doesnt look up to LA like they think we do. We do our own shit, regardless of what LA does. We dont see LA as the "make or break" for Kali. U got 3 of the top 10 biggest cities in the country here with LA, San Diego and Frisco. Plus u got the whole rest of the Bay Area and Sac makin noise. I think the Bay Area, Sac, and Dago gotta respect for eachother...that LA isnt really a part of. U see a lot of our artist workin together with the Bay and Sac artists. More so even then any of us work with LA. Blame who u want for that, but i see it as LA who made it that way. They want the attention...but Kali as a whole aint goin nowhere unless u get a strong push from artists all over. If we dont support eachothers music, from North to South..how do u expect to have the rest of the country get behind it? Like E-40 said...."too many chiefs, and not enough Indians". Everybody wanna be the man.everything runs thru L.A. in cali. thats the way it is. We birth this bitch called the westcoast. All The Top selling artist from Cali are from L.A. county. and u speaking madd bitter being from San Diego. San Diego hip hop doesnt exist unless u talking about that Mexican Cholo bullshit.
Quote from: R-Tistic on January 30, 2006, 09:29:45 AMFor whatever reasons, people from The Bay seem to be defensive as fuck about their music, and they seem to really feel that everybody in LA has somethin against them and that we hate on them but jock their style at the same time. I would like to say that people with this attitude are way off point and got it twisted as hell. Im from San Diego, and believe me homie...it isnt just the Bay area that has that opinion about LA. Not so much the "jockin our style" shit...but the "hate". From what ive seen....rappers, producers, etc from LA seem to think theyre above everyone else in Kali. When the rest of the country thinks of Kali, they think...LA. And that shit i think has gone to a lotta peoples heads. Obviously LA is the biggest city out here, and will probably always get the most spotlight. But u got too many muthafuckas up there who think theyre on some professional shit while the rest of the state is just amateurs. They just need to understand that the rest of Kali doesnt look up to LA like they think we do. We do our own shit, regardless of what LA does. We dont see LA as the "make or break" for Kali. U got 3 of the top 10 biggest cities in the country here with LA, San Diego and Frisco. Plus u got the whole rest of the Bay Area and Sac makin noise. I think the Bay Area, Sac, and Dago gotta respect for eachother...that LA isnt really a part of. U see a lot of our artist workin together with the Bay and Sac artists. More so even then any of us work with LA. Blame who u want for that, but i see it as LA who made it that way. They want the attention...but Kali as a whole aint goin nowhere unless u get a strong push from artists all over. If we dont support eachothers music, from North to South..how do u expect to have the rest of the country get behind it? Like E-40 said...."too many chiefs, and not enough Indians". Everybody wanna be the man.
For whatever reasons, people from The Bay seem to be defensive as fuck about their music, and they seem to really feel that everybody in LA has somethin against them and that we hate on them but jock their style at the same time. I would like to say that people with this attitude are way off point and got it twisted as hell.
ok as far as that punk ass nigga PHILLYBOI..nigga i am writing from tha gutters of tha rich..ok yea there are ghettos but im reppin mines boi..wat im sayin is cum around hea and yo ass would leave ass naked boi.. POCKETS TURNED INSIDE OUT..im not tryinna b hard or nothin im juss tellin it like it is..but i agree 100% with TeeRaySix9Teen..here in tha bay we dont copy nobody we do out own thang reguardless of the exposure or not..man even if tell me whenna go dnt make it we still gone slap dat shit till tha amps blow out in tha scraper, goin dummy on top of tha car, shakin our shit, goin 18 cuz thats our music, yall could hate it or love it we gne still do wat we do..and imma say this shit one moe muthafuckin time..HYPHY BEEN OUT 4 THA LONGEST..IT WAS JUSS NEVER EXPOSED LIKE CRUNK WAS!!!SO WE AINT COPYIN SHIT..how we gone copy sumthin when we are the orginators of so many trends?? dnt you guys see the pattern of all tha stolen lingo and styles thats jus starting to surface through out the industry?? for example.."stunner shades"= BIG ASS GRANNY SHADES OR ANY TYPE OF BIG ASS RAW ASS SHADES..now all of a sudden we see erybody wearin em i.e. jermaine dupri in the "grillz" video..we been doin dat 4 like 4-5 years now..STEP YA GAME UP PIMPIN
Quote from: R-Tistic on February 06, 2006, 05:26:57 AMWell as I always say....it's funny when people from anywhere outside of L.A. - let it be NY, Atl, Miami, The Bay, Diego, etc. etc - say that L.A. doesn't like them for whatever reason...when the truth is, L.A. CATS DON'T LIKE EACH OTHER!!!! I never really say L.A. as a whole having that elitist attitude as you say, and that sounds like how everybody seems to feel about New York rappers and people in general. But to me, L.A. is too many people for you to ever generalize like that. L.A.'s top artists and producers have that same attitde towards people who aren't big and aren't doin as much as they are in L.A., so of course they'll be the same way about people outside of L.A. you know. I feel that most situations that sounds like yours happen from people takin things and blowin them way outta proportion, and then wantin to use certain things as an excuse to generalize or have tension with somebody else when it really isn't neccessary. If you were in L.A., you would realize that there are people who are unestablished and may or many not have a bit of buzz, who still think they are better than EVERYBODY in L.A., and that most WEST COAST rappers suck...not just L.A., but anybody from the West, period. I know cats who are born n raised in L.A. who don't want to be "classified" as a west coast artist, and claim it's because they want to be universal to the nation, when the truth is that they are ashamed and feel that most west coast rappers are trash.So for whatever reasons you feel like you do, I am sure you may have a bit of evidence to support your claim, but believe me, that's really not the way it is.i dunno man. this is the way i look at it. when a wide range of different people from different areas who have NO tie to eachother all seem to have the same opinion about u...maybe u should look at yourself and not point at others (not talkin about YOU in particular, u get the idea tho). To be real I like LA, i stay on the grind back n forth from Dago to LA all the time. But i do see the attitude LA muthafuckas seem to have a lot. And its been evident just here in this post by that Addicted to Beef fool. They SERIOUSLY think that we, or the Bay, give a shit what goes on in LA. And really, we dont. We have our own issues, own problems, push our own music, work with our own artists, cept for the collabs with Bay Area cats. But none of us focus on LA like it seems a lot of u think. To me, its just another city. We dont hate yall, we dont love yall. Like i said, this is a big part of the reason that SD and the Bay tend to do alotta work together and LA isnt a part of most of it.
Well as I always say....it's funny when people from anywhere outside of L.A. - let it be NY, Atl, Miami, The Bay, Diego, etc. etc - say that L.A. doesn't like them for whatever reason...when the truth is, L.A. CATS DON'T LIKE EACH OTHER!!!! I never really say L.A. as a whole having that elitist attitude as you say, and that sounds like how everybody seems to feel about New York rappers and people in general. But to me, L.A. is too many people for you to ever generalize like that. L.A.'s top artists and producers have that same attitde towards people who aren't big and aren't doin as much as they are in L.A., so of course they'll be the same way about people outside of L.A. you know. I feel that most situations that sounds like yours happen from people takin things and blowin them way outta proportion, and then wantin to use certain things as an excuse to generalize or have tension with somebody else when it really isn't neccessary. If you were in L.A., you would realize that there are people who are unestablished and may or many not have a bit of buzz, who still think they are better than EVERYBODY in L.A., and that most WEST COAST rappers suck...not just L.A., but anybody from the West, period. I know cats who are born n raised in L.A. who don't want to be "classified" as a west coast artist, and claim it's because they want to be universal to the nation, when the truth is that they are ashamed and feel that most west coast rappers are trash.So for whatever reasons you feel like you do, I am sure you may have a bit of evidence to support your claim, but believe me, that's really not the way it is.
Quote from: marochick510 on February 06, 2006, 10:05:08 AMok as far as that punk ass nigga PHILLYBOI..nigga i am writing from tha gutters of tha rich..ok yea there are ghettos but im reppin mines boi..wat im sayin is cum around hea and yo ass would leave ass naked boi.. POCKETS TURNED INSIDE OUT..im not tryinna b hard or nothin im juss tellin it like it is..but i agree 100% with TeeRaySix9Teen..here in tha bay we dont copy nobody we do out own thang reguardless of the exposure or not..man even if tell me whenna go dnt make it we still gone slap dat shit till tha amps blow out in tha scraper, goin dummy on top of tha car, shakin our shit, goin 18 cuz thats our music, yall could hate it or love it we gne still do wat we do..and imma say this shit one moe muthafuckin time..HYPHY BEEN OUT 4 THA LONGEST..IT WAS JUSS NEVER EXPOSED LIKE CRUNK WAS!!!SO WE AINT COPYIN SHIT..how we gone copy sumthin when we are the orginators of so many trends?? dnt you guys see the pattern of all tha stolen lingo and styles thats jus starting to surface through out the industry?? for example.."stunner shades"= BIG ASS GRANNY SHADES OR ANY TYPE OF BIG ASS RAW ASS SHADES..now all of a sudden we see erybody wearin em i.e. jermaine dupri in the "grillz" video..we been doin dat 4 like 4-5 years now..STEP YA GAME UP PIMPINhyphy didn't make noise untill the federation put that shit out which wasn't that long ago. and regardless what bay area people say, "Hyphy" is a poor mans "Crunk" even E-40 said Hyphy is to the bay what Crunk is to the south.and i ain't hating on you but please don't take credit for stunner shades. thats just pathetic. that shit didn't pop off in the bay.
Yo check it out, im from frisco. 95% of the time, im listining only to west coast heat. now being from the bay area, i think im allowed to say this shit. to me, that hyphy, and get stupid shit is the stupidest and gayist thing ive heard. to me, that kind of music is a false representive of the bay area.i dont know anybody that does that hyphy shit.. nobody mang. this type of bay area music is completely different from when i was coming up. what happend to the type of music of Too$hort, 2pac, RBL Posse, Dre Dogg?I also dont know why The Game doesn't appreciate The Bay area when on tv, when he knows he started off in San Francisco.sucka free 415 beeeyatch
ok well Addicted 2 Beef, Where did it pop off then?? and yes e-40 did say that they are similar but tha only reason y he said that is because theirs no other way 4 u dumb fucks 2 relate.."Hyphy" is just a word...but we been doin this same dance even b4 tha word came out..actually over the years the dance has evolved into different dances..basiclly its a turf dance..just goin dumb basiclly repin' to turf..our music is not crunk wat so ever! agh its a whole different base line cuz cuz..but if you were 2 live here and contuniously time and time again people stealin our shit(3 years late)you would see where im comin from im not just sayin this shit 4 my health or juss tryinna get on this shit is real on mamas..yall gne see imma juss sit back in chill on yall bootsie ass j-cats..lol
ok well Addicted 2 Beef, Where did it pop off then??
Quote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on February 06, 2006, 11:23:03 AMQuote from: Addicted To Beef on February 06, 2006, 01:36:59 AMQuote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on February 05, 2006, 11:29:02 PMQuote from: R-Tistic on January 30, 2006, 09:29:45 AMFor whatever reasons, people from The Bay seem to be defensive as fuck about their music, and they seem to really feel that everybody in LA has somethin against them and that we hate on them but jock their style at the same time. I would like to say that people with this attitude are way off point and got it twisted as hell. Im from San Diego, and believe me homie...it isnt just the Bay area that has that opinion about LA. Not so much the "jockin our style" shit...but the "hate". From what ive seen....rappers, producers, etc from LA seem to think theyre above everyone else in Kali. When the rest of the country thinks of Kali, they think...LA. And that shit i think has gone to a lotta peoples heads. Obviously LA is the biggest city out here, and will probably always get the most spotlight. But u got too many muthafuckas up there who think theyre on some professional shit while the rest of the state is just amateurs. They just need to understand that the rest of Kali doesnt look up to LA like they think we do. We do our own shit, regardless of what LA does. We dont see LA as the "make or break" for Kali. U got 3 of the top 10 biggest cities in the country here with LA, San Diego and Frisco. Plus u got the whole rest of the Bay Area and Sac makin noise. I think the Bay Area, Sac, and Dago gotta respect for eachother...that LA isnt really a part of. U see a lot of our artist workin together with the Bay and Sac artists. More so even then any of us work with LA. Blame who u want for that, but i see it as LA who made it that way. They want the attention...but Kali as a whole aint goin nowhere unless u get a strong push from artists all over. If we dont support eachothers music, from North to South..how do u expect to have the rest of the country get behind it? Like E-40 said...."too many chiefs, and not enough Indians". Everybody wanna be the man.everything runs thru L.A. in cali. thats the way it is. We birth this bitch called the westcoast. All The Top selling artist from Cali are from L.A. county. and u speaking madd bitter being from San Diego. San Diego hip hop doesnt exist unless u talking about that Mexican Cholo bullshit.youre an idiot homie. San Diego has a big independant scene. people like u are the reason that artists sell out. u act as if selling a lot of records makes what u do "quality". the Eastcoast is kickin our ass in sales.....does that mean all their artists are better? No. So dont pretend that LA has all this talent that the rest of the state doesnt, just because some LA artist have more marketing. Talkin about "we birth this bitch"....YOU didnt do shit lol. Ignorant muthafuckas with your mentality will keep the west from comin back to the forefront. You dont see that just creates an LA vs The Rest of Kali mindset. That shit is stupid. Last year ive heard so many people (even on this forum) say they heard more quality albums come out of the Bay and Dago then what came out of LA. Like i said....Quality, not just strong marketing schemes. Get your shit together before u come back and respond fool.who the fuck does san diego have? mitchy & jayo? none of those dudes are going no where. Your biggest rap selling artist is Lil Rob whos majority of his fan base is in Los Angeles. And i don't dislike any certain region outside of L.A. i just can't stand muthafuckaz like u who always bitch "L.A. always hating on Diego, L.A. is always hating on the bay." Quit crying you little bitch. Nobody in L.A. even thinks about any other region. It comes down the jealousy. L.A. gets alot of attention & Diego & the bay don't so therefore u feel bitter inside towards L.A..
Quote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on February 06, 2006, 11:37:01 AMQuote from: R-Tistic on February 06, 2006, 05:26:57 AMWell as I always say....it's funny when people from anywhere outside of L.A. - let it be NY, Atl, Miami, The Bay, Diego, etc. etc - say that L.A. doesn't like them for whatever reason...when the truth is, L.A. CATS DON'T LIKE EACH OTHER!!!! I never really say L.A. as a whole having that elitist attitude as you say, and that sounds like how everybody seems to feel about New York rappers and people in general. But to me, L.A. is too many people for you to ever generalize like that. L.A.'s top artists and producers have that same attitde towards people who aren't big and aren't doin as much as they are in L.A., so of course they'll be the same way about people outside of L.A. you know. I feel that most situations that sounds like yours happen from people takin things and blowin them way outta proportion, and then wantin to use certain things as an excuse to generalize or have tension with somebody else when it really isn't neccessary. If you were in L.A., you would realize that there are people who are unestablished and may or many not have a bit of buzz, who still think they are better than EVERYBODY in L.A., and that most WEST COAST rappers suck...not just L.A., but anybody from the West, period. I know cats who are born n raised in L.A. who don't want to be "classified" as a west coast artist, and claim it's because they want to be universal to the nation, when the truth is that they are ashamed and feel that most west coast rappers are trash.So for whatever reasons you feel like you do, I am sure you may have a bit of evidence to support your claim, but believe me, that's really not the way it is.i dunno man. this is the way i look at it. when a wide range of different people from different areas who have NO tie to eachother all seem to have the same opinion about u...maybe u should look at yourself and not point at others (not talkin about YOU in particular, u get the idea tho). To be real I like LA, i stay on the grind back n forth from Dago to LA all the time. But i do see the attitude LA muthafuckas seem to have a lot. And its been evident just here in this post by that Addicted to Beef fool. They SERIOUSLY think that we, or the Bay, give a shit what goes on in LA. And really, we dont. We have our own issues, own problems, push our own music, work with our own artists, cept for the collabs with Bay Area cats. But none of us focus on LA like it seems a lot of u think. To me, its just another city. We dont hate yall, we dont love yall. Like i said, this is a big part of the reason that SD and the Bay tend to do alotta work together and LA isnt a part of most of it. Well I donno, you'd have to give me examples of what goes on and what has happened to you, because I definitely never hear of anybody from L.A. knockin people in Diego. Most people I know don't know too much of anything about the San Diego scene, and it seemed like I was hearin a lot about SD rappers about a year or two ago, but I have barely been hearin anything lately. Most L.A. people who aren't rappers and all that usually like anybody who is dope or who is exposed to them. L.A. rappers as I said are cocky toward each other, and that carries to people outside of L.A. One reason nobody dope ever comes out of L.A. is because L.A. people tear them down before they even have a chance to blow. I know Game is a very questionable person overall, but it's sad how EVERYBODY was just waitin to bring him down, and how they used every single bit of info to tear down his character and kill his chances of blowin up or stayin around in the industry. They don't realize that people outside of L.A. who will only get to hear Game will say "damn, well if Game is fake and he's the best thing L.A. has, everybody else there must suck" or anything similar.
Quote from: marochick510 on February 06, 2006, 08:19:47 PMok well Addicted 2 Beef, Where did it pop off then?? wheres ur proof that the bay made em popular?
Quote from: Addicted To Beef on February 06, 2006, 03:24:41 PMQuote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on February 06, 2006, 11:23:03 AMQuote from: Addicted To Beef on February 06, 2006, 01:36:59 AMQuote from: TeeRaySix9Teen on February 05, 2006, 11:29:02 PMQuote from: R-Tistic on January 30, 2006, 09:29:45 AMFor whatever reasons, people from The Bay seem to be defensive as fuck about their music, and they seem to really feel that everybody in LA has somethin against them and that we hate on them but jock their style at the same time. I would like to say that people with this attitude are way off point and got it twisted as hell. Im from San Diego, and believe me homie...it isnt just the Bay area that has that opinion about LA. Not so much the "jockin our style" shit...but the "hate". From what ive seen....rappers, producers, etc from LA seem to think theyre above everyone else in Kali. When the rest of the country thinks of Kali, they think...LA. And that shit i think has gone to a lotta peoples heads. Obviously LA is the biggest city out here, and will probably always get the most spotlight. But u got too many muthafuckas up there who think theyre on some professional shit while the rest of the state is just amateurs. They just need to understand that the rest of Kali doesnt look up to LA like they think we do. We do our own shit, regardless of what LA does. We dont see LA as the "make or break" for Kali. U got 3 of the top 10 biggest cities in the country here with LA, San Diego and Frisco. Plus u got the whole rest of the Bay Area and Sac makin noise. I think the Bay Area, Sac, and Dago gotta respect for eachother...that LA isnt really a part of. U see a lot of our artist workin together with the Bay and Sac artists. More so even then any of us work with LA. Blame who u want for that, but i see it as LA who made it that way. They want the attention...but Kali as a whole aint goin nowhere unless u get a strong push from artists all over. If we dont support eachothers music, from North to South..how do u expect to have the rest of the country get behind it? Like E-40 said...."too many chiefs, and not enough Indians". Everybody wanna be the man.everything runs thru L.A. in cali. thats the way it is. We birth this bitch called the westcoast. All The Top selling artist from Cali are from L.A. county. and u speaking madd bitter being from San Diego. San Diego hip hop doesnt exist unless u talking about that Mexican Cholo bullshit.youre an idiot homie. San Diego has a big independant scene. people like u are the reason that artists sell out. u act as if selling a lot of records makes what u do "quality". the Eastcoast is kickin our ass in sales.....does that mean all their artists are better? No. So dont pretend that LA has all this talent that the rest of the state doesnt, just because some LA artist have more marketing. Talkin about "we birth this bitch"....YOU didnt do shit lol. Ignorant muthafuckas with your mentality will keep the west from comin back to the forefront. You dont see that just creates an LA vs The Rest of Kali mindset. That shit is stupid. Last year ive heard so many people (even on this forum) say they heard more quality albums come out of the Bay and Dago then what came out of LA. Like i said....Quality, not just strong marketing schemes. Get your shit together before u come back and respond fool.who the fuck does san diego have? mitchy & jayo? none of those dudes are going no where. Your biggest rap selling artist is Lil Rob whos majority of his fan base is in Los Angeles. And i don't dislike any certain region outside of L.A. i just can't stand muthafuckaz like u who always bitch "L.A. always hating on Diego, L.A. is always hating on the bay." Quit crying you little bitch. Nobody in L.A. even thinks about any other region. It comes down the jealousy. L.A. gets alot of attention & Diego & the bay don't so therefore u feel bitter inside towards L.A.. u got the mentality of a 10 year old. when the whole outside world has an opinion about your area....you blame everyone else and dont look at yourself. figure it out homie, none of us give a shit about LA. Thats fine if LA doesnt think about Dago or the Bay...but guess what? We dont really think about u either. And as i said, sales dont equal quality. Ja Rule was a platinum artist. What does that make him? Still wack. So im not talkin about record sales fool. And i was talkin about the attitude artists, record labels, and producers in LA have...not some loser like u. youre nobody homie, just some internet geek that thinks he got the scoop on somethin. Arent u the same idiot that thought he was bringin breaking news about the Lakers before the season...even though most of it didnt come true, and the ones that did was shit everyone else already knew. Your credibility is shot regardless.
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