Juventus relegated to Serie B

[Meho]

So, Antonio Inter did win the Scuddeto but Milan didnt ? Even better 

Justice was served. 2 years ago I think Juve was 6 points ahead of Inter. 2 shady games and that it.

The funny thing is that there are no shady games for the prosecutor.
So you're winning a Scudetto with no cheated games for the prosecutor, and the last one will be revoked even if there are no cheated games too.
It's just a punishment for nobody knows what! lol. Not for cheated games, that's for 101% sure.
So stop calling us cheaters.
The sentence said we didn't cheat single games.

What the hell are you talking about, the tapes of exact conversation were all over the world. Everybody was quiting becuase they know theyre guilty. I admit I dont know what exactly each club was accused of but I do know there was strong edvince for every one of them. I know some huge Juve fans who followed this like crazy and even they said " yeah, some shady shit was going on"

Man stop bullshiting with me. If you wanna talk with me about this shit get your ass to read the papers of the sentence and then i'll talk with you. You're spitting ignorant bullshit.
In the sentence it's written we didn't select the refs, we didn't cheat single games, but we just made pressure somehow (they don't have a proof: they said, litterally, that it's highly possible) on the refs, without directly calling them, but... litterally.. somehow. The end.

Dude, sorry but I strongly doubt that the sistem in Italy is so corrupt that Juve got sent to Serie B with -30 points for no reason whatsoerver 

[Antonio_]

The premise:
“In the evaluation of the probative material the Commission will only indicate those elements of sure relevance, that they are not lend to equivocal interpretations, because even from the analysis of some obvious facts already emerging to clear letters that which was in the opinion of all those involved in the world of soccer, and that is the conditioning of the referees from the part of Juventus’ leadership.”

That means as a premise that there is already the obvious fact that we conditioned the referees because exactly the same think “all those involved in the world of soccer”. That’s a good start! Anyway, we carry on. The core of the sentences is that the behaviors held from the leaders of the Juventus are violations of the art. 1 (unsporting behaviour), but put in row, one after the other, make violation of the art. 6 (unlawful). Very much like of old custom of “three corners make a penalty”.

We read: “the assurance of an advantage in league classification is conceptually permissible regardless of the alteration of a single game or the result of one. In fact, if of sure, the position in classification of each team is arithmetical turning out of the sum of the points achieved on the field, it is also true that it’s position in its complex can be influenced from conditionings that, regardless of the result of the single game, however they end in order to determine prevailing of one team over the others. The federal attorney assumes that Juventus’ managers and the other persons indicated in the charge head have had conducts directed to procure to that team an advantage in classification and then have obtained the hoped result, with reference to championship 2004/2005, for effect of the “conditioning of the referees and the lesion of the principles of alterity, impartiality and independence which is the referee’s purpose”. Under the legal profile, the formulation appears correct. The referees function as “judges” of the game and hence they must guarantee an impartial and, above all, independent direction, that it only holds account of that happens on the field; that autonomy and impartiality must be guaranteed to all the referees and the other persons that take part in this: first of these are the referee assigners, seeing the tremendous importance than such function has. The federal Power of attorney, with reference to the imputation contested to the persons indicated in the charge, it has individuated contrary behaviors to the principles of loyalty, correctness and probity in relationship with the sport activity (art.1), and has thought that the sum of such behaviour has been suitable to realize the conditioning of the referees to the advantage of the Juventus, and therefore has been violated the art. 6, integrating the plurality of those activities directed to acquire to Juventus an advantage in the league's classification.”

That is we would have pursued advantages in classification without altering directly the games (?), but with the simple conditioning of the referees, that without kowning how they were all in our favor. With reference to single championship 2004/05 (because the successive one has then not been assigned?). And there is illicit (art. 6) not because effectively commited, but because of the sum of several disloyal behaviors (art. 1).

But in concrete terms, in what consist such violations of the art.1? In telephone calls and in ghostlike “gifts”.

We read:
“If there were communications between them (the circumstance is peaceful) and if the same Moggi has took aupon himself the task to supply (at least to Bergamo) the telephone and to recharge it to his expenses, we can make the deduction that the object of those conversations (not being shown other reasonable hypotheses from part of the accused) did not have been completely lawful. (.) The relationship between the two representatives of the Juventus and the two referee assigners is characterized then from an element connected to the attainment of economic usefullnesses from part of the two referee assigners, consisting in gifts (see telephone call of 2 December 2004 prog. 42 between Moggi and his wife), even if there is not possible to verify the entity of such gifts, and in the obtaining discounts of remarkable amount for the purchase of automobiles of the FIAT group, as far as Pairetto is concerned”.

Therefore, the discount on the Fiat automobiles (the discount has been acquired because they have bought a couple of new Panda with 0 km), and the “indefinite gifts” (like the tray of Andreotti, that pulled out the ticket). That’s the reasoning around the telephone calls: if they speak to the telephone and Moggi has given telephones to Bergamo, it can be deduced that they make illicit agreements on the telephone, inasmuch as the accused have not known to demonstrate the contrary (as if the accusation is exactly the fact that they had telephoned eachother).

But how do they pass from the art.1 to the art. 6 (unlawful)? Through “the recurrence”. That is?
We read:
“The Commission thinks reasonable to presume that the episode previously described, refered to the Juventus-Udinese game of 13 February 2005 (object of a successive head of accusation), is not isolated; the natural tone with which the talk between Bergamo and Moggi is carried out, the fact that has been the first one to call the second, the nocturnal hour in which has happened the call, and the successive talk of Bergamo with lady F., from which it finds that the negotiation on the designations is a custom habit, famous also to this last one much not to amaze her, are all elements that concur to assert with tranquillity that the conduct of the Moggi, manifest yield from the interceptions, becomes part in one habitualness of the conduct”.

Of it one deduces that if Moggi have had called at lunch and had spoken with shyness, the conduct would have been corrected?

A doubt may have come you: but it is not that we made up the referees assignement procedure? Not at all, Ruperto answers:

“The Commission thinks that it must already from now exclude to give importance to the circumstance, on which a lot has been discussed in this procedure and that it has been object of specific examination of attorney of Turin, relative to the alteration of the procedure of the referees assigneent.”

And then?

And we come to the hard one: the accused games. Juve-Udinese: it is that one to which the previous passage refers, that one of the nocturnal telephone call. It is the mythical telephone call when Moggi “asks” for the referee assistants Ambrosini and Foschetti. Bergamo says “no, Ricci and Gemignani, it is all the same anyway”, and in the end assistants are Foschetti and Gemignani. Here the honoured president of the constitutional court:

“The telephone call just transcribed it is illuminant because it demonstrates:
- that there is an interference of Moggi in the choice of the assistants, manifest with an explicit indication of those which he wants to;
- that the choice of the assistants it was not fruit of an independent chosen of the designator, but instead it was conditioned from the demand of one of the teams in competition (and it is not necessary to take into consideration the relevance of the assistants decision);
- that there is a subjection of Bergamo in the comparisons of Moggi; the first one even if is trying to manifest a formal autonomy, in the end however he ends to please Moggi; not having been able to designate Ricci, he maintains the designation of Gemignani (that however it re-enters in the alternative <se non e zuppa e pan bagnato>, but it places Foschetti that was one of the two assistants originally asked from Moggi"

It follows the speech of the night, for which if once Moggi it has asked for an assistant, but it has made it by night and with a natural tone in his voice, then it wants to say that always does that (see previously).
Without words!

[Antonio_]

Juve-Lazio: the illicit one is one supper.

We read:
“The evening of 2 December 2004 Moggi had met at supper Bergamo, Pairetto and Giraudo, and since that connects this encounter to the telephone call of 3 December 2004 (prog. 8771), it means, if also not explicitly, that the fact that Moggi knew already the names of the assistants, previoulsy to their official designation, it was so because of a previous agreement. The commission thinks that the conduct ascribed to Moggi are contrary to the principles of correctness and sport loyalty, as the attorney has suspected in other cases (see Juventus - Udinese of 13 February 2005, in this same charge and Milan - Chievo of the 20 2005, relative to the Galliani, Meani and Mazzei accusations); since the interference with the referee designation is one of the many actions through which Moggi has realized the illicit described in the first head of accusation, the commission, recognizing the subsistence of the violation of the art. 1, declares the absorption in the illicit of which Moggi has been already thought responsible.”

Therefore, since a telephone call “leaves to mean” (not explicitly; it is not, never!) that Moggi was cheating on the designations, there is the illicit, but it is absorbed from the fact that has it already commited for Juve-Udinese.

At last, you will like this!, for the admonitions of Bolgna-Fiorentina Moggi comes acquitted, because the admonitions of Nastase and Peruzzi were in correspondence with regulations, and however there are no proofs that Moggi and De Santis have arranged the something.

Therefore: the accusation charge us for three games, one of which played by others: For one there is no illicit; for an other not even, because absorbed from the third; in the third there is illicit for the telephone call “give to me A and B” “no, C and D”, with the result: A and C. From this episode, the tone of Moggi’s voice and from the timetable we get to Serie B with -30 points, 5 years of interdiction and 80,000 € of fine, because the designator, that moreover did not make up the referee assignments, have received “gifts of indefinibile entity”, a telephone, and the car seller had given him a 23% discount on one Fiat.

Anyway, the main proof is the Serie A title:

“the actions, all directed to the same aim, have effectively determined a situation of advantage of Juventus regarding the other teams, that it has then carried the same one to the victopry in the championship”

And it has gone to us also well!

“The Juventus, had received a soft trial because it has demonstrated, with the new club’s leadership, that it recognizes the errors made in the past by its managers and that it has begun a regeneration process; consequently the demanded endorsement made by the attorney must remarkablly be attenuated”.

No shit!
Instead of Series C we simply give Serie B with 30 points of penalization. That it means, taking as to cue the Championship of Series B of the last season, that we would have to make 77 points in order to save to us. That is 4 less of first team and 1 less of the second one. In order to save to us, and not in order to go to Serie A!

Just that, in Italy, AD 2006, a man of 81 years who for nine has been member of the constitutional Court.

[Antonio_]

Now before you open your mouth again reply to this shit. You wanna act smart with me? Please, you're welcome!!

Lawyer Antonio Corsa.

[mauzip]

"Detox is not not coming..." might as well delete his account now LOL

[On The Edge of Insanity]

Having read through that report though, whether or not Moggi had the intention of fixing referring appointments (questionable), it is a pretty stupid thing for the managing director (or whatever his position was) of a football club to have head of referres (I think thats what the guy is right?) round to dinner, and to give him a discount on a Fiat car along with other gifts. Admittably the prosecuter has used a lot of hearsay to condemn them, but Moggi didn't even need to put them in that position in the first place if he had just acted as someone in his role should have done.

[Antonio_]

Having read through that report though, whether or not Moggi had the intention of fixing referring appointments (questionable), it is a pretty stupid thing for the managing director (or whatever his position was) of a football club to have head of referres (I think thats what the guy is right?) round to dinner, and to give him a discount on a Fiat car along with other gifts. Admittably the prosecuter has used a lot of hearsay to condemn them

Good point. The fact is that here it was a common pratice to have a dinner with the head of referres once in a while. I mean he was been selected by the (top) clubs. And he's a former ref himsel, who referred thousands of matches of Juventus, Inter, Milan, etc.. Plus he's a long time friend with Moggi (but not only with Moggi. He's like best friend with Facchetti, Inter President) and of every manager of the top clubs, who selected him, i repeat. So he, the head of referres, used to have dinners with Juventus, Inter, Milan, etc.. I agree it's morally a wrong thing. But they did it cause the head of the refs wanted to know wassup with all the top clubs, trying to be equal with them all. To punish Juventus about it is incredible, since it's a fact (everybody admitted it) it was a common pratice. That's the scandal. We're punished for a thing everybody did. And i'm not inventing it, it's written in the sentence and the head of refs admitted it on TV a couple of times.

but Moggi didn't even need to put them in that position in the first place if he had just acted as someone in his role should have done.

Right. He didn't cheat, but he didn't even had to exceed his role. Right. This is a violation of Article 1. The punishment is not the relegation to Serie B, but just 4-5 points of penalization. BUT THEY SHOULD GIVE IT TO THEM ALL WHO USED TO DO IT, NOT ONLY TO JUVENTUS. I'm talking about 3/4 of Serie A.

P.S. +1 karma for the good argumentation of your reply.

[Meho]

Antonio, Im going out right now, so Ill read all that stuff tomorrow.

Just to let you know 1 thing: If I was wrong then Ill have no problem admiting it and apologize to you.

[Antonio_]

Antonio, Im going out right now, so Ill read all that stuff tomorrow.

Just to let you know 1 thing: If I was wrong then Ill have no problem admiting it and apologize to you.

You don't have to aplogize. You have to know the truth. Cause the sad truth at the moment is that the things i'm writing you are still unknown to 90-95% of the italian population too. They just HAD TO PUNISH Juventus. People dont even know why, but they talked shit about us for two months in the media that this scandal looks normal. People is saying the same shit you said. But it ain't their fault tho. You have to read tons of papers and to know shit about law to understand the scandal. It's a perfect set-up. But this is a forum, so if we can chat about it UNDERSTANDING IT it's better.

[7even]

@Antonio

The 5 stages of grief and loss:

1. Denial (your current stage)
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance


I hope you get through soon enough and not suffer too much.

[Mac 10 †]

LOL ^

that theory does work 99% of the time

[HD]

@Antonio

The 5 stages of grief and loss:

1. Denial (your current stage)
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance


I hope you get through soon enough and not suffer too much.

lol

[Antonio_]

@Antonio

The 5 stages of grief and loss:

1. Denial (your current stage)
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

I hope you get through soon enough and not suffer too much.

LOL

[Bomb-A®]

So will they promote three extra teams from Serie B to keep the numbers the same...i hope not....more the teams, more point for Juve to earn and make it back to Serie A

I've expected the fact that Juve will stay in Serie B...hopefully after the appeal they'll reduce the negative points




peace

[Antonio_]

There will be an appeal. Then probably the civil justice. It will be a looong summer. The Serie A might be postponed to November/December tho.
Anyway yesterday a sportal judge of the Italian Federation (FIGC) fired himself from his job saying he doesn't want to take part of this bullshit.