Steve Nash....

[7even]

Aight one general statement first: Smart people always know how to use certain statistics to "prove" something, but well it's not always as plain as the stats might make it look.

Next, I never denied that playing for the Suns might boost your stats. It's obvious that offensive players get more credit when it comes to stats than defensive players, and well the Suns are a very offense-minded team.

But then again I don't think that there is any PG in the league that would make the Suns better while putting up better numbers than Nash at the same time. And that does say something.

[Antonio_]

I'm just saying that playing for the Suns boost your offensive stats. He's a good player, arguably the best PG in the league at the moment, but if i have to judge his career and then the one of.. i don't know.. Jason Kidd (dude is an 8-time All-Defensive selection and he led the Nets to 2 NBA Finals!!!).. well.. it's like comparing Ben Gordon to Michael Jordan, you know what i mean? Nash is a good player, but damn he's probably one of the most overrated ever with his back-to-back MVP titles. And, about your last sentence, what's the big deal? I mean you can say the same thing about Kobe and the Lakers, or Wade and the Heat, or Melo and the Nuggets, or KG and Minnesota. Why the NBA chosed Nash over those ones?

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

What else could it be? That numbers ain't shit? I guess 81 isn't shit as a number either then, is it? 21/12 are impressive numbers, no matter how you slice it. It's easier to get those numbers on a team like the Suns of course, but it is still a remarkable achievement. And they are winning, too. Nash is no Iverson or Garnett.

Are you completely ignoring what I'm saying? NASH PLAYS ONE END OF THE COURT. NASH PLAYS IN A STAT-INFLATING SYSTEM. Not saying he's not great at what he does, but he's a number 2 option on a team like Dallas, and even now he's not the best on his team...Don't be moronicly illogical like Plant, I know you're above that level...PeACe

Nash does what people expect him to do and he does that really well. He plays his role, he knows his role and he does what he does well. You don't expect Ron Artest to shoot and hit clutch 3s now do you. The Suns don't rely much on defense and if they do they have other people to shut the opponent down, they don't even need Nash for great defense. He's old, it would be horrific if he hustled his ass off on the defensive end, cause his offensive game would suffer dramatically.     
He's no Magic, no Stockton, no Kidd. Still a great player.

Yes, and the point is that basketball is a game played on both ends of the court, which is why Steve Nash can't be the best in the game only excelling in half of the game while beng pretty much non-existant in the other half...PeACe

[7even]

I'm not so sure about Wade, Melo and Garnett. But that is another story. Let's not get into too many arguments, I'm tired. Aren't you?
Of course Kidd's career is "better". Him not getting an MVP award is another story alltogether.
As far as Nash being MVP I think it's understandable. I mean, before he came to the Suns, the team was embarrassing to watch. They had a horrible win-loss record. They flat out sucked. Then Nash comes and they go to the WEST FINALS after a GREAT regular season. Then they lose Amare for good and they go to the WEST FINALS YET AGAIN. If that's not an achievement, I don't know what is. It can be argued that players like Kobe have been more worthy of that honor last year, but I think several players deserved it, but only one could get it and that's that. Kobe deserved it, yes. But so did Nash in his own kind of way.

[Antonio_]

Kobe deserved it, yes.

[LAKERS_FAN89]

Kobe deserved it, yes.

yep yep

[Juronimo]

I'm not so sure about Wade, Melo and Garnett. But that is another story. Let's not get into too many arguments, I'm tired. Aren't you?
Of course Kidd's career is "better". Him not getting an MVP award is another story alltogether.
As far as Nash being MVP I think it's understandable. I mean, before he came to the Suns, the team was embarrassing to watch. They had a horrible win-loss record. They flat out sucked. Then Nash comes and they go to the WEST FINALS after a GREAT regular season. Then they lose Amare for good and they go to the WEST FINALS YET AGAIN. If that's not an achievement, I don't know what is. It can be argued that players like Kobe have been more worthy of that honor last year, but I think several players deserved it, but only one could get it and that's that. Kobe deserved it, yes. But so did Nash in his own kind of way.

I agree, what Nash did last season was impressive considering no Amare, you can't deny that.

[PLANT]

all you guys who act like Nash aint all that, you need to name me one PG in the league (beside J Kidd) who would be doing what Nash is doing, has done....There is no one.  No other PG can make those kind of sneaky passes that Nash makes for all his teamates to get those easy buckets....Amare and Marion are spoonfed at least half of there points every game....Its wack wehn NIK sits here and says its all about the system, that fn bullshit....Nash IS the system.  If J Kidd was in Pheonix he might put up those kind of numbers, and If he won MVP, I would give him his props, no problem....Nash is a better shooter and offensive player than Kidd tho.  22 and 12 is pretty sick numbers, and even better when you are the sole reason why your team is winning games.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

all you guys who act like Nash aint all that, you need to name me one PG in the league (beside J Kidd) who would be doing what Nash is doing, has done....There is no one.  No other PG can make those kind of sneaky passes that Nash makes for all his teamates to get those easy buckets....Amare and Marion are spoonfed at least half of there points every game....Its wack wehn NIK sits here and says its all about the system, that fn bullshit....Nash IS the system.  If J Kidd was in Pheonix he might put up those kind of numbers, and If he won MVP, I would give him his props, no problem....Nash is a better shooter and offensive player than Kidd tho.  22 and 12 is pretty sick numbers, and even better when you are the sole reason why your team is winning games.

Your dumbness is causing you to ignore the whole point, NASH DOESNT PLAY DEFENSE. Nash might be a better shooter, but Kidd is a better all-around player, even at age 34, because he plays BOTH ENDS of the court. Nobody denied he was great on offense (despite playing in a stat-inflating system), but it's the lack of DEFENSE that's keeping him back from being anywhere close to the greatest...Get it yet?

[PLANT]

all you guys who act like Nash aint all that, you need to name me one PG in the league (beside J Kidd) who would be doing what Nash is doing, has done....There is no one.  No other PG can make those kind of sneaky passes that Nash makes for all his teamates to get those easy buckets....Amare and Marion are spoonfed at least half of there points every game....Its wack wehn NIK sits here and says its all about the system, that fn bullshit....Nash IS the system.  If J Kidd was in Pheonix he might put up those kind of numbers, and If he won MVP, I would give him his props, no problem....Nash is a better shooter and offensive player than Kidd tho.  22 and 12 is pretty sick numbers, and even better when you are the sole reason why your team is winning games.

Your dumbness is causing you to ignore the whole point, NASH DOESNT PLAY DEFENSE. Nash might be a better shooter, but Kidd is a better all-around player, even at age 34, because he plays BOTH ENDS of the court. Nobody denied he was great on offense (despite playing in a stat-inflating system), but it's the lack of DEFENSE that's keeping him back from being anywhere close to the greatest...Get it yet?

this is the dumbest shit Ive ever heard.  Was Magic Johnson EVER a good defensive player?  Did he ever make the all defensive team?  Fuck no.  Dont give me that bullshit.  Dirk isnt the best defender either, but I sure wouldnt be suprised if he won MVP.  Face it man, your just the biggest dickrider and all you can do is hate on any player who is a non-laker.  Just give it up already, I dont think anyone really takes your opinion serious.  Everyone knows your going to win the nutrider of the year at the 2006 dubcc awards.

[PLANT]

Wait, I finally figured it out...It must have been "the system" that made Magic so good...He was playing with Kareem and James Worthy, shit...he wasnt even the best player on his team! 

douchebag

[Just Another Sunny day in California]

all you guys who act like Nash aint all that, you need to name me one PG in the league (beside J Kidd) who would be doing what Nash is doing, has done....There is no one.  No other PG can make those kind of sneaky passes that Nash makes for all his teamates to get those easy buckets....Amare and Marion are spoonfed at least half of there points every game....Its wack wehn NIK sits here and says its all about the system, that fn bullshit....Nash IS the system.  If J Kidd was in Pheonix he might put up those kind of numbers, and If he won MVP, I would give him his props, no problem....Nash is a better shooter and offensive player than Kidd tho.  22 and 12 is pretty sick numbers, and even better when you are the sole reason why your team is winning games.

Your dumbness is causing you to ignore the whole point, NASH DOESNT PLAY DEFENSE. Nash might be a better shooter, but Kidd is a better all-around player, even at age 34, because he plays BOTH ENDS of the court. Nobody denied he was great on offense (despite playing in a stat-inflating system), but it's the lack of DEFENSE that's keeping him back from being anywhere close to the greatest...Get it yet?

this is the dumbest shit Ive ever heard.  Was Magic Johnson EVER a good defensive player?  Did he ever make the all defensive team?  Fuck no.  Dont give me that bullshit.  Dirk isnt the best defender either, but I sure wouldnt be suprised if he won MVP.  Face it man, your just the biggest dickrider and all you can do is hate on any player who is a non-laker.  Just give it up already, I dont think anyone really takes your opinion serious.  Everyone knows your going to win the nutrider of the year at the 2006 dubcc awards.

lmao! +1 plant

[Antonio_]

all you guys who act like Nash aint all that, you need to name me one PG in the league (beside J Kidd) who would be doing what Nash is doing, has done....There is no one.  No other PG can make those kind of sneaky passes that Nash makes for all his teamates to get those easy buckets....Amare and Marion are spoonfed at least half of there points every game....Its wack wehn NIK sits here and says its all about the system, that fn bullshit....Nash IS the system.  If J Kidd was in Pheonix he might put up those kind of numbers, and If he won MVP, I would give him his props, no problem....Nash is a better shooter and offensive player than Kidd tho.  22 and 12 is pretty sick numbers, and even better when you are the sole reason why your team is winning games.

Oh Jesus!! This is getting personal, i'm starting to get tired of this discussion. You both grow up: we're in a public forum, not on the phone! Man i already told you WHY it's all about the system. I wrote you stats, not impressions. It's the (let's call it with the right name) "Mike D'Antoni's system" (i know him cause he played/coached here in Italy for half of his life) where everybody gotta run to give the PG an easy option to make a pass or a shot. Mike was like Nash, as a player. The same type of player. Actually a better defender, but we're talking about points and assists here. That said, i personally wrote Nash is STILL probably the best PG in the league, or a top3 selection for sure. So i'm not saying he sucks. I'm just saying 50% of the reason why he's averaging those numbers is because of his skills, and 50% because of "Mike's system". He's not Stock, no Magic, no Kidd. Matter of fact he had a good but not impressing career before Mike (D'Antoni). But he's the perfect player in the perfect place, and yes, he's fundamental to his team. But Jesus, y'all are acting like if he's really the best player in the league!!! Nik is right: he's not even the best player in his team! He's a great PG for Phoenix, and he led the team to good records and shit.

Kobe is different. Kobe is BY FAR the best SG AND player of the league. Who already won 3 titles, and who's trying to prove he can do it again without Shaq. In 10 years people will talk about Kobe, not about Nash. Nash will be forgotten as soon as he'll retire, cause he ain't in the group of the best PG ever. No way. Like i said he's no Stock, no Thomas, no Magic, no Kidd, no.. (big list). Kobe, on the other hand, is being compared to Jordan since his first day in the League, and even if he's still not on his level, after he'll retire people will start to compare young players to him AND Jordan. Cause he's one of the best SG ever. That's the big deal. That a player like Kobe will probably get no MVP trophies in his career, while a player like Nash can win 3 in a row. He's not bad. He's amazing. But.... But Dallas proved you can have a great/wonderful season without him too.

[Antonio_]

Wait, I finally figured it out...It must have been "the system" that made Magic so good...He was playing with Kareem and James Worthy, shit...he wasnt even the best player on his team!

douchebag

I know you're joking. But i'll still give you a -1 for disrespecting a true legend like Magic to prove a (personal opinion: wrong) point.

["THE" MoSav]

^Don't act like a dick. It doesn't suit you.

LOL didn't you see the smile?

Of course I did, that's why I said what I said. You were being a dick. But you're usually such an unconfronting, understanding, self-conscious nice guy. So I told you that being a dick doesn't suit your image, so you should just get rid of that dick-being-behaviour for your own good. I was just trying to give advice.

Ok. Let me try to add something more interesting to the discussion. Let me try. Let me explain you a pair of things about Nash's stats. It's math. The Suns are a 112.1 points per game (best in the League, obviously) team. Well.. to average almost 12 assists there shouldn't be that impressive, since he's doing it from 3 years in a row. He averaged 5.8 assists per game before he returned back to Phoenix 3 years ago, and all of a sudden he's starting to average 11+. Isn't it suspicious to you? They have 3 players in the top 30 of the League in assists (the other two are Barbosa and Diaw, not exactly Magic & Thomas) and they average an unreal 26.44 assists per game (best in the League, obviously). Yes, he's dishing the ball very well, but Phoenix system helps. He's averaging 11.7 assists out of 26.44 total assists of his team. It's the 44.2% of the team. Chris Paul, since i named him in a previous post, is averaging 8.9 assists out of 16.8 of his team. Which means he's making almost 53% of the assists of his team. That's more impressive to me. And we can do the same funny game about points. Nash is making 21 points out of 112.1 (18.7%) while Chris Paul is making 18.2 points out of 91.5 (19.9%). See? Math is funny sometimes. Who clowned me about Paul being more MVP (most valuable player) than Nash?

I did and i'll clown you again. Throw all these numbers in my face blah blah blah. IF you wanna go by numbers Efficiecny says Kevin Martin is the best 2 gaurd in the NBA and we know that isnt true. If you think Paul is as good as Nash right now, maybe you should start watching a little more. Give Paul a few more years..