Author Topic: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout  (Read 5243 times)

JEWBACCA

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2007, 03:59:49 PM »
Looks like L.A. gooks are a lil' nervous



Los Angeles-Kyeyoung Park grew worried as she listened to news reports referring to the Virginia Tech shooter as "Asian-looking."

On Tuesday, she learned that the perpetrator of the worst shooting in U.S. history was not only Asian, but Korean - and it seemed like reporters couldn't stop repeating it.

"This is something that white Americans never have to be concerned about," said Park, an associate professor of anthropology at UCLA. "If one white American commits a crime, nobody will apply it to all white Americans. But for minorities, you are always seen as a group."

The identification of Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old senior, as the triggerman who left 32 dead before taking his own life Monday sent a shudder through Los Angeles' Korean-American community, the largest outside Korea.

Fifteen years ago this month, Korean-American shopowners in South Los Angeles suffered the brunt of the L.A. riots when the predominantly African-American surrounding community identified them as an outlet for their frustration.

On Tuesday, Korean-Americans were fearing the worst.

"Many Americans can't differentiate between North Korea and South Korea, and then to get this massacre - if there is stereotyping, it will be really bad," said the Rev. Young K. Yoo, pastor of Korean Church of North L.A. in North Hills.

Korean-American organizations attempted to head off any problems by issuing press releases expressing condolences and hosting candlelight vigils.

"Our hearts go out to the victims, their family members and friends. This unspeakable tragedy hurts all of us," the L.A.-based National Korean American Service & Education Consortium said in a statement.

"As a community, Korean-Americans will come together to provide the support and resources needed for the students, their families, the faculty and the staff at Virginia Tech to overcome the grief and pain that overwhelms them all at this moment."

Outside the Greenland Market in Van Nuys, news racks for four Korean newspapers, including two sports papers, each displayed front-page photos of the shootings.

"All Koreans feel very sorry. That strange guy is not all Koreans," said Kim Tong, 55, who runs a small newsstand nearby. "All Koreans work very hard and are diligent and gentle-minded.

"He is crazy. He's very different."

Cho was described as a loner and an outcast with a dark mind. The Smoking Gun Web site reported that he was referred to counseling last year "after professors became concerned about the violent nature of his writings," including a short story about a 13-year-old boy who accuses his stepfather of pedophilia and of murdering his father.

Like others, Tong, who emigrated 10 years ago, emphasized that Cho grew up with American values.

"He is almost American, not Korean," Tong said.

An English major at Virginia Tech, Cho's family immigrated to the United States in 1992 when he was 8. And yet journalists kept referring to Cho as a Korean immigrant.

"I was disturbed that media kept calling him a South Korean immigrant, as if he arrived yesterday," Park said. "He didn't. He grew up here, in the 'burbs, in Virginia."
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2007, 04:24:28 PM »
If criminals want to get hold of guns though, they will, using europe to illustrate the point is pointless purely and simply, because there has never really been mass gun ownership. Therefore controlling guns has never been that much of a problem, the big big problem in gun registration, is stopping someone from having a gun because they have a criminal record. Just on a practical common sense basis, millions of those with a criminal record will have gained it through petty crimes. The problem with such centralisation, is the government has proved over and over again they can not be trusted and give away that much power and it will be abused. What I mean is, as soon as a major precedent is set, moves come into place to incrementally expand this law and in the long term most people can longer own a gun. However there will still be millions of guns available on the black market...the peaceful people will be even more at risk. 

Using Europe as a point proves that if criminals want guns, they WON'T be able to get ahold of them nearly as easily.  Since I came to London, I've heard of some shootings (a few months ago, some dude up near Clapham North got clapped up by gangbangers, and one of the weapons used was a MAC-10 sub-machine gun), but they're so rare that when they do happen, they make front-page news all across the country.  How often does that happen in the U.S.?  Except for some gang members and of course the Irish terrorist groups (both Republican and Loyalist), almost nobody in the U.K. is armed.  Shit, even the police here don't usually carry guns (except SO-19).  They don't need to.

If somebody has a criminal record, it's probably a safe bet they might be involved in more serious offenses but haven't been caught.  I don't believe a dude who stole Skittles from a 7-11 when he was 15 shouldn't be allowed to have a gun, but anyone who's been arrested multiple times for assault & battery, burglary, or anything else, shouldn't.

Cut it out with the government conspiracy bullshit.  Lest you forget, Switzerland is a country that is heavily armed, yet it also has a very centralized system of gun control.  Besides, you've said it yourself...so many people own guns in America that any politician that wanted to ban them ALL would face their wrath come elections.  If the Democrats did decide to pass a complete gun ban tomorrow, that would be 80 million people who would be pissed off as fuck.  A lot of Democrats believe that Clinton's support of the Assault Weapons Ban in 1994 cost the Democrats in Congress, so you can only imagine what a ban on ALL guns would do.  Trying to ban all guns in America would be political suicide.  The best route to take, and the one that should make all parties involved happy, is to find a middle road, and that's what licensing more-or-less achieves.  I don't expect it would satisfy all the hard-line right-wingers and right-Libertarians that consider ANY infringement upon 2nd Amendment rights to be bad, but for the vast majority of gun owners (the rural hunters and the homeowners who buy guns casually for practical purposes), it would probably be OK.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 04:28:10 PM by Guerilla_From_Tha_Mist »
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2007, 04:37:25 PM »
Oh, yeah, and I don't see why so many South Koreans are rushing to apologize for this.  Are they worried that all South Korean kids are going to be stereotyped as potential school shooters?  I don't think this shooting is going to change the stereotype of school shooters as crazy white boys wearing goth clothes who listen to Marilyn Manson or Nirvana and play too much "Counter-Strike".
 

virtuoso

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2007, 04:41:46 PM »
Conspiracy theory bullshit? I said if the government are given power they will abuse it, the american government and the president in particular can be impeached on so many grounds, so once again what conspiracy theory bullshit? You have done absolutely nothing to dispell what I just said approximately there are 7.5 million people in switzerland and about 15% of households have a gun, so you are talking about just over a million people who posess a gun. Therefore if you take the statistics from 1992 as a guide, there were 97 handgun murders in switzerland, multiply that number by 200 and you get a figure which would be somewhere near the handgun murder rate of the U.S. Also of course what this data fails to address is that switzerland is very affluent and america by contrast has massive inequality and this is no doubt a reason for so much gun crime. Clearly you chose to misinterpret what I said, I don't recall mentioning a total ban I said it would pave the way for more and more people to be prevented from owning a gun in fact I was at great pains to point out that changes would arrise incrementally and only in the long term would people truly appreciate the impact of the changes, by then it's too late. It's like air slowly escaping from a football, you continue playing on with it and sure it still works to an extent but it becomes much harder to kick the ball but still you carry on until the ball is flat as a pancake and by then you can do nothing about it.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 04:54:36 PM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2007, 04:58:22 PM »
How do you get that Switzerland has a handgun murder rate equal to the U.S.?  Last I checked, there are something like ten THOUSAND handgun murders in the U.S.  Do the math...that puts the handgun murder rate at less than one-fifth that of the U.S.  Furthermore, you're failing to account for TOTAL murder rates.  On the other hand, I have heard that Switzerland does have the second-highest handgun murder rate in the world, but it's still a very distant second to the U.S.  Still, maybe that proves even stricter gun regulations are necesary...I've heard at least part of the reason for the Swiss gun crime is the fact that ammunition controls aren't well-enforced.
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2007, 05:14:55 PM »
If you go on the basis of 100 million owning weapons, admittedly the figures vary but some of the figures have been ascertained from interviews and of course some people are bound to lie under such circrumstances, therefore I have taken something of an approximation on that one, 97 people were killed in switzerland in 1992 when approximately a million people owned a gun. (going on todays population figure)  Multiply this figure by 100 million and you get a figure of 9700 murders . I don't know how many handgun murders there are in america but it's higher than ten thousand and plus as I mentioned before it does not take into account the massive inequality which exists in america and this is underlined by the majority of the crime being concentrated around the poor black neighbourhoods.

As I asked before, where have i mentioned anything which can be considered conspiracy rubbish?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 05:19:07 PM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2007, 05:24:17 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^ Here:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-switzerland.htm

Confirms nearly everything I have said...Switzerland's handgun murder rate is 1.42 per 100,000 compared to 5.28 for the U.S.  The same site also indicates that Switzerland had 97 handgun murders in 1992 (as you've said) while the U.S. had 13,429.  Keep in mind that that number has most likely decreased since the Brady Bill was passed in 1994, and I imagine Swiss gun laws have also become stricter as well.

I think your problem is that you used two unrelated sets of data...you confuse handgun ownership with TOTAL gun ownership.  100 million people in America don't own handguns...something like 80 million own guns and of those, I think about 25 million own handguns.  The rest are hunters and farmers who own shotguns and rifles, plus a very tiny proportion that own assault rifles.  Likewise, do a million people own a GUN generic term (remember, a lot of those Swiss people own government-issued assault rifles) or a HANDGUN?
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2007, 05:28:49 PM »
I think that when the CIA details handguns they are reporting on it because that is the problem. Hunters and farmers are not the ones responsible for gun crime except for pockets of incidents..Like you said assault rifle ownership is a very small minority of people. The figure you just mentioned of 80 million is indeed a reported figure but then you will also see figures in excess of 80 million. Like I said, these figures are largely based on interviews, it's reasonable to assume that some people would get nervous and respond that they do not own a gun when they do.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 05:34:10 PM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2007, 05:36:33 PM »
^^^^^^ Either way, Switzerland's rate of gun crime is not as high as America's.

Of course farmers and hunters aren't responsible for gun crime, and in general, it's rare that rifles or shotguns are used either.  I think I remember hearing something like 85% of gun murders in the U.S. are committed with handguns, and I imagine the rate for total gun crime (non-lethal incidents) is probably about the same.  Obviously, long guns aren't useful because of their length, the only exceptions begin sawed-off shotguns or assault rifles with short barrels and folding stocks.
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2007, 05:45:44 PM »
Yes I know, my initial post was a bit rash but you would still be dealing with a great deal number of people dead if there was the same amount of gun ownership as in america. If Switzerland had the same level of inequality also, then you might see an even greater similarity in terms of the ratio of owners to deaths.

Although nothing can be as ridiculous as making carrying a knife such a "horrible offence" over here, that is the craziest example of victim disarmament. I remember reading in the london telegraph about how the cops trick young women into admitting they carry a knife and then off to jail they go, meanwhile the criminals will carry knives regardless. At the end of the day any way you cut it if even some of the people were allowed to have a weapon on the campus then this crazy fuck would have been taken down. I can't believe the media is going to spin this to demonise guns, it's unbelievable.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 05:47:20 PM by virtuoso »
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2007, 05:51:25 PM »
Yes I know, my initial post was a bit rash but you would still be dealing with a great deal number of people dead if there was the same amount of gun ownership as in america. If Switzerland had the same level of inequality also, then you might see an even greater similarity in terms of the ratio of owners to deaths.

Although nothing can be as ridiculous as making carrying a knife such a "horrible offence" over here, that is the craziest example of victim disarmament. I remember reading in the london telegraph about how the cops trick young women into admitting they carry a knife and then off to jail they go, meanwhile the criminals will carry knives regardless. At the end of the day any way you cut it if even some of the people were allowed to have a weapon on the campus then this crazy fuck would have been taken down. I can't believe the media is going to spin this to demonise guns, it's unbelievable.

So I don't understand...if you're admitting that Switzerland would have more gun deaths if it had the same rate of gun ownership, then aren't you conceding I'm right?  The main thing I'm arguing here, and which many pro-gun nuts in America deny, is that more guns = more crime, more violence, etc.

As far as demonizing guns, could this Cho dude have killed nearly as many people with a knife as a gun?  When was the last time you heard of someone lining up 30 people in a room and then knifing them all to death?  Granted, it's pretty rare to hear of someone killing 30 people using a 9-mm handgun with a 15-round magazine (when I heard the number of people killed, I was expecting it to be an assault rifle with a 100-round drum magazine), but it's still far more achievable.  The point is, guns facilitate murder for anyone and everyone, and that is why a society in which they are readily available is such a bad thing.
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2007, 05:59:39 PM »

The point I was trying to make is that if you determined what the gun crime might be using those crude methods, then it calls into your question your view about gun control having such a massive effect. The fact is the right to bear arms is an inalieable part of the U.S constitution and with so many guns in circulation, there will always be millions in circulation available to criminals. The reason why forefathers made the right to bear arms a fundamental part of the constitution was to ensure that with an armed populace tyranny could be staved off. 
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2007, 06:06:14 PM »

The point I was trying to make is that if you determined what the gun crime might be using those crude methods, then it calls into your question your view about gun control having such a massive effect. The fact is the right to bear arms is an inalieable part of the U.S constitution and with so many guns in circulation, there will always be millions in circulation available to criminals. The reason why forefathers made the right to bear arms a fundamental part of the constitution was to ensure that with an armed populace tyranny could be staved off. 

I hear the argument about the Constitution all the time.  Aside from the fact that I think the 2nd Amendment should probably be repealed (but I know it won't happen) and that the constitutionality of gun control is not as questionable as the NRA makes it sound, I don't buy the tyranny argument.  We're living in an era where it's much, MUCh harder for an armed civilian militia to challenge a modern army with sophisticated technology and intelligence.  And before you point out to me recent guerilla conflicts such as the Vietnam War or the Soviets' defeat in Afghanistan, please keep in mind that in those cases the guerilla force wasn't just a bunch of civilians who owned guns.  The Viet Cong were well-organized and well-supplied by governments hostile to the United States (namely, the Soviets and Chinese) via the Ho Chi Minh Trail, plus they were well-trained.  A bunch of drunk rednecks with shotguns or homeowners with .38s are not adequate enough to serve as a guerilla force.  Even if almost all American gun owners had assault rifles (and as we agree, that's not the case), I still can't see it working.  Guerilla armies still require a level of organization and supply lines that I don't foresee any American militia attaining.

As I have said, I do not expect that, should the gun laws I have suggested be implemented, the U.S. will immediately cease to have such a high rate of gun violence, but it would set the stage for a gradual reduction of gun violence over the next few decades.  It would be an important first step.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 06:08:00 PM by Guerilla_From_Tha_Mist »
 

virtuoso

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2007, 06:16:37 PM »

80 million (officially) is a massive militia to have, a lot of whom are well schooled in shooting would deliver a bloody nose to any army, why do you not agree with the idea of a few teachers being entrusted with weapons to keep in a secure box? better that, than to turn these campuses into prisons and please do not tell me that is a bs conspiracy, jrome acknowledged this is what they will push for.
 

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Re: Virginia: 32 Shot Dead In School Shootout
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2007, 08:35:47 PM »
I am on Blackman's side on this one, Shallow. In most "civilized" countries it is just weird as fuck to own a gun. I have never even seen a gun in my entire life, except for in the holster of a peaceful police officer. If any decent person around here carries around a gun, it's just odd. It's just not what people do. That being said, the cultural acceptance plays a great role, it's not just about easier destribution. For me a gun is just something I know from movies, computer games and shit. It's not a part or an issue of my everyday life whatsoever. I don't even think of guns on an average day. But in a country in which it is perfectly normal to have serveral guns as a decent person, people rather pull a gun - and not just because it is easier to obtain one.
Also, destribution is an issue too, to me it would just be too much of a hassle to get one illegally (obviously, getting one illegally in Europe is much much harder than getting one illegally in the US) and to learn how to use it, learn how to shoot. I couldn't just go out with it and shoot at some cans or whatever in the forest because that would just be weird lol. I wouldn't know who to ask about it. It's just not what people do. It would be hella suspicious, too, unlike in the US, a "civilized" and economically advanced country that is all over guns, for reasons I hope I will never fully understand.
Furthermore, there is no room to argue, certain types of guns are just flat out designed to kill people. They are *not* designed for artful aim-shooting, or to hunt or to go to war. They are designed to kill people in an everyday environment. That's just crazy. I don't understand why decent people have those types of things.

I am absolutely sure that it is better for a society to not have guns around everywhere. The problem with the US is, that people are just way too used to it, and they would feel as if something lacks as soon as guns would be "prohibited"... that and the fact that the pro-guns-for-retards lobbies like the NRA are way too powerful.


I think cracking down on guns is great, but I don't see it having an effect on cases like this. This guy wasa nut who wanted to make statement and be remembered for it. If no gun was available to buy legally, he'd buy it illegally. If he couldn't find one he'd find some other way to make an impact; suicide bomb, create a large explosion or fly a plain into one of the school buildings. I don't think gun control would have saved any lives in thios casee, and the lack of gun control could have saved lives if he indeed did try another method like the ones mentioned. He was a lunatic with the intent to kill and die. The best you can do is look for warning signs and keep an eye on him but that is far from a certain method of safety. There's just something about America that breeds these nuts more so than any other first world nation, but in the end these events are few and far between.