If NBA players got to vote for the MVP...

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

lamar leading the lakers is not a bad of thought, i'm sure if you got players that complimented his game, he'd be a more productive leader than kobe.

So if you had players to compliment Lamar's game as opposed to players to compliment Kobe's game, the Lakers would be better off?...LMFAO!

exactly, because , and this is my strong opinion now, after three seasons of watching kobe be about as consistant as a Sine wave at the helm for the past 11 or so years. i have NO CONFIDENCE in his leadership skills. players best suited to kobe's style are players who just stand and watch him OR a more Dominant player  with leadership skills where kobe is the second bannana.  A kobe lead team taylored perfectly to his style would be uneven and very dependent on Kobe.....like the lakers have been. A Lamar lead team, taylored perfectly to his game would be like the pistons or a team like more even like that. I can see a team like the latter beating a team like the lakers.

You're wrong. A team taylored to Kobe would be the same as a Jordan led team...Too bad it hasn't happened yet.

[Don Jacob]

i want to touch on the denver situation real quick . the whole carmelo/iverson thing


like i said before the playoffs and like greg anthony said as well on inside the nba......the nuggets won't do much this year in the playoffs they're still learning to play with each other....by the end of the regular season they were tearing shit up , then going into the post season their inexperience playing with each other in 7 games series' caught up with them. by next year i can see them running into the 2nd possibly the 3rd round (depending on what happens with the other teams).  my final thought on the nuggest right now is dependent on what happens next year.  and i predict good things

[floatin_above_everything]

Antonio:
Who was better than Jordan?  6 playoff MVP's without a real post player to play with puts him #1 according to 99% of bball fans.  Did you watch the man play?  I never saw Wilt, Russell, etc play, but the only on ethat comes close would be Magic?  Is he your number one?


THe thing with Jordan is, he elevatated others play.  That is what GREAT players do, and i have a feeling Kobe will do it in the coming years, but as of now it is not happening.......

1. Magic
2. Jordan

I'll judge Kobe when he'll retire.

"There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us."  —  Magic Johnson

"Magic Johnson is the greatest player ever" — Dennis Rodman

LMFAO!  What the fuck does Dennis Rodman have to do with anything?  - 1 Elior

"NIK would eat Kobe's shit with a spoon" - Jrome

Jromo... Your name is a joke in this section...Keep it in the G-Spot.

Your name is a joke on this forum...Keep it in iluvkobescock.com

My legendary name will NEVER be a joke here. I might get my share of dickriders, but the Jromo's and the phillyboy's make it all worth it.

Sorry to break it too ya, but you ARE  a joke here bro bro. I've never heard people do anything but agree with that cuzzo.

Yea, the same ol' nutriders and Nash fans who can't seem to get off...there are people here who are down with me (not online buddies, like you strived to make).


YOU, on the other, had the ENTIRE board talking shit about you and your girlfriend. I don't even remember one person backing you up...You came back under a different account and sucked up to those same people, never saying who you were. Once again, phillyboy, DISGUSTING.

Actaully, people did back me, and still do. I haven't seen 1 person back u up in this sports section, because your a joke to us. Your blind hate for Nash proves this, and so does your karma.

Who is down with you on this site?

Who is cool with me on this site? LMAO

Tanjint
Doggy
Twista
Rik
Ted
Antonio
Wcsoldier
Al Bundy
Sucka Free
Jake
Mosav
Spice
Flipmod
Primo
etc.
etc.
etc.


My legacy on this board=greatest poster, known for immensely pissing people off and having them go to outrageous heights to get me back
Your legacy on this board=switching usernames so that no one remembers you as the douche who had an autistic looking girlfriend

ROFL! haha! Son, if I lived out there in Cali, I woulda met up with the same people too, and i never once heard them back u up. And once again, everybody knows that I'm Phillyboy, you are the only one who has a problem with that. Only reason i fuck with YOU is because you jump on everysingle post I have in the basketball section, and tell me my opinion is wrong. Nobody would call u the greatest poster ever, your smoking that shit boy boy.

[floatin_above_everything]

lamar leading the lakers is not a bad of thought, i'm sure if you got players that complimented his game, he'd be a more productive leader than kobe.

So if you had players to compliment Lamar's game as opposed to players to compliment Kobe's game, the Lakers would be better off?...LMFAO!

exactly, because , and this is my strong opinion now, after three seasons of watching kobe be about as consistant as a Sine wave at the helm for the past 11 or so years. i have NO CONFIDENCE in his leadership skills. players best suited to kobe's style are players who just stand and watch him OR a more Dominant player  with leadership skills where kobe is the second bannana.  A kobe lead team taylored perfectly to his style would be uneven and very dependent on Kobe.....like the lakers have been. A Lamar lead team, taylored perfectly to his game would be like the pistons or a team like more even like that. I can see a team like the latter beating a team like the lakers.

You're wrong. A team taylored to Kobe would be the same as a Jordan led team...Too bad it hasn't happened yet.

Jordan was the best who's ever done it, Kobe's not that great kid. The team is alreday taylored to Kobe and he's gotten them nowhere.

[GangstaBoogy]

Antonio:
Who was better than Jordan?  6 playoff MVP's without a real post player to play with puts him #1 according to 99% of bball fans.  Did you watch the man play?  I never saw Wilt, Russell, etc play, but the only on ethat comes close would be Magic?  Is he your number one?


THe thing with Jordan is, he elevatated others play.  That is what GREAT players do, and i have a feeling Kobe will do it in the coming years, but as of now it is not happening.......

1. Magic
2. Jordan

I'll judge Kobe when he'll retire.

"There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us."  —  Magic Johnson

"Magic Johnson is the greatest player ever" — Dennis Rodman

LMFAO!  What the fuck does Dennis Rodman have to do with anything?  - 1 Elior

"NIK would eat Kobe's shit with a spoon" - Jrome

Jromo... Your name is a joke in this section...Keep it in the G-Spot.

Your name is a joke on this forum...Keep it in iluvkobescock.com

My legendary name will NEVER be a joke here. I might get my share of dickriders, but the Jromo's and the phillyboy's make it all worth it.

Sorry to break it too ya, but you ARE  a joke here bro bro. I've never heard people do anything but agree with that cuzzo.

Yea, the same ol' nutriders and Nash fans who can't seem to get off...there are people here who are down with me (not online buddies, like you strived to make).


YOU, on the other, had the ENTIRE board talking shit about you and your girlfriend. I don't even remember one person backing you up...You came back under a different account and sucked up to those same people, never saying who you were. Once again, phillyboy, DISGUSTING.

Actaully, people did back me, and still do. I haven't seen 1 person back u up in this sports section, because your a joke to us. Your blind hate for Nash proves this, and so does your karma.

Who is down with you on this site?

Who is cool with me on this site? LMAO

Tanjint
Doggy
Twista
Rik
Ted
Antonio
Wcsoldier
Al Bundy
Sucka Free
Jake
Mosav
Spice
Flipmod
Primo
etc.
etc.
etc.


My legacy on this board=greatest poster, known for immensely pissing people off and having them go to outrageous heights to get me back
Your legacy on this board=switching usernames so that no one remembers you as the douche who had an autistic looking girlfriend

Hey add me to that list too. You're kinda like the big brother I never had...or wanted 

[Don Jacob]

i agree, watching both players the TALENT  IS THERE. however, no one has shown confidence in them. Kwame was rejected by jordan and kobe (basically) how much of an ego boost is that. and nobody talks about smush parker in a good light. so how can you succeed when you're not filled with confidence.  

 a leader should be able to build you up PAST your potential. how the fuck does an aged team like the Heat go to eastern conf. finals twice in a row and win the championship the other year. how does a team like that make it as the 4th seed when in all honesty they shouldn't have even made the playoffs.  you know how? leadership (granted that leadership is deteriorating now) but on paper those heat teams were not that impressive for what they've done in the past three years, but they still pulled through.

If kobe was a leader , the laker team he had his first year without shaq should have at least made it to the playoffs as a 7-8th seed.
If kobe was a leader, they should have beaten the suns last year
If kobe was a leader,  he would have learned from these past mistakes.

Kobe is going to be known for what he did for HIMSELF, not for his team

You don't truly believe this, man, do you? Kobe shoulda made the playoffs that year where Frank Hamblen took over mid-way through that disasterous season!? LMAO. They shoulda' beaten the Suns last year, despite being overmatched in experience AND talent level? What did Kobe not do? Jake, your thoughts are absurd. You could put ANY player EVER on this same Laker team in place of Kobe, and they would NOT have fared any better...Do you realize how much Kobe tried doing for Kwame? if you watched Laker games you'd know this. He instilled all the confidence in the world in him, but he simply couldn't come through 100% this year. He forced the ball into Kwame, passed up shots to feed him, he would big him up after every made shot, jump on him after a big dunk, etc... he did what Jordan didn't.

What did Jordan do for his teammates that Kobe didn't? Seriously Jake, I'd like to hear it...

1. i don't see why they couldn't have made the playoffs, if kobe was as good as you said he was he'd be able to win, remember he had Caron Butler and Lamar odom with him, plus a few pieces from the good ol' days . kobe was/is an experienced veterine, that's what makes/made sam cassell so useful on the bucks/wolves/clippers. Rudy T. was a good coach and frank tired to facilitate as well as he could you can't blame him....that's a sorry excuse the lakers still made the playoffs with rambus remember? that was an even WORSE trade off IMO. and they still managed.

2. as you said the lakers were "one rebound" away from winning, what happend after game 4? you mean to tell me that those 3 wins were just flukes? no that was GOOD leadership FOR ONCE from kobe which i still commend him for to this day. but shit after game 4 they reverted to playing perverse, which resulted in a complete collapse in game 7, kobe was no where to be found. the lakers looked like they won the series after game 3 . kobe as a leader has to have that killer instinct to finish a series...which he's yet to do. even going back to the suns series in the first playoff run, much of the blame can be placed on kobe when we couldn't finish off the suns completely when he took over in the 4th quarters. we all hear know kobe hates losing but , i don't think he knows how to avoid that completely.

3. any player? okay, and i hate to sound cliche, but put shaq on that team and they'll at least make 8th seed. you can also put Duncan on there and you will have at least an 8th seed. my whole point is ....if kobe is suppose to be the 'mvp' he should be able to revolutionize any team he's on. if he's suppose to be the best player , in basically every aspect of the game, missing the playoffs and exiting the playoffs in the first round embarrassingly should not be acceptable BY ANY MEANS, it shouldn't happen. period.  no one is saying kobe isn't the beset offensive weapon. no one is saying he's not one of the best defensive weapons. no one is questioning his desire or clutch, or ANY OF THAT. what everyone is doubt and it's pretty obvious he's deficient in is LEADERSHIP. he gets an A in every category except that area.  that's why shaq and kobe worked so well when it worked.....Supreme dominance  offensively from inside and outside with shaq leading. wow what a combo that was. the leadership was THERE. now it's not and what do you have .....disappointment for the last 3 years.

[rik]

Antonio:
Who was better than Jordan?  6 playoff MVP's without a real post player to play with puts him #1 according to 99% of bball fans.  Did you watch the man play?  I never saw Wilt, Russell, etc play, but the only on ethat comes close would be Magic?  Is he your number one?


THe thing with Jordan is, he elevatated others play.  That is what GREAT players do, and i have a feeling Kobe will do it in the coming years, but as of now it is not happening.......

1. Magic
2. Jordan

I'll judge Kobe when he'll retire.

"There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us."  —  Magic Johnson

"Magic Johnson is the greatest player ever" — Dennis Rodman

LMFAO!  What the fuck does Dennis Rodman have to do with anything?  - 1 Elior

"NIK would eat Kobe's shit with a spoon" - Jrome

Jromo... Your name is a joke in this section...Keep it in the G-Spot.

Your name is a joke on this forum...Keep it in iluvkobescock.com

My legendary name will NEVER be a joke here. I might get my share of dickriders, but the Jromo's and the phillyboy's make it all worth it.

Sorry to break it too ya, but you ARE  a joke here bro bro. I've never heard people do anything but agree with that cuzzo.

Yea, the same ol' nutriders and Nash fans who can't seem to get off...there are people here who are down with me (not online buddies, like you strived to make).


YOU, on the other, had the ENTIRE board talking shit about you and your girlfriend. I don't even remember one person backing you up...You came back under a different account and sucked up to those same people, never saying who you were. Once again, phillyboy, DISGUSTING.

Actaully, people did back me, and still do. I haven't seen 1 person back u up in this sports section, because your a joke to us. Your blind hate for Nash proves this, and so does your karma.

Who is down with you on this site?

Who is cool with me on this site? LMAO

Tanjint
Doggy
Twista
Rik
Ted
Antonio
Wcsoldier
Al Bundy
Sucka Free
Jake
Mosav
Spice
Flipmod
Primo
etc.
etc.
etc.


My legacy on this board=greatest poster, known for immensely pissing people off and having them go to outrageous heights to get me back
Your legacy on this board=switching usernames so that no one remembers you as the douche who had an autistic looking girlfriend

Hey add me to that list too. You're kinda like the big brother I never had...or wanted 

LOL

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

i want to touch on the denver situation real quick . the whole carmelo/iverson thing


like i said before the playoffs and like greg anthony said as well on inside the nba......the nuggets won't do much this year in the playoffs they're still learning to play with each other....by the end of the regular season they were tearing shit up , then going into the post season their inexperience playing with each other in 7 games series' caught up with them. by next year i can see them running into the 2nd possibly the 3rd round (depending on what happens with the other teams).  my final thought on the nuggest right now is dependent on what happens next year.  and i predict good things

And the Lakers aren't a new team? LOL! Their 5 starters haven't even played HALF a season together.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

lamar leading the lakers is not a bad of thought, i'm sure if you got players that complimented his game, he'd be a more productive leader than kobe.

So if you had players to compliment Lamar's game as opposed to players to compliment Kobe's game, the Lakers would be better off?...LMFAO!

exactly, because , and this is my strong opinion now, after three seasons of watching kobe be about as consistant as a Sine wave at the helm for the past 11 or so years. i have NO CONFIDENCE in his leadership skills. players best suited to kobe's style are players who just stand and watch him OR a more Dominant player  with leadership skills where kobe is the second bannana.  A kobe lead team taylored perfectly to his style would be uneven and very dependent on Kobe.....like the lakers have been. A Lamar lead team, taylored perfectly to his game would be like the pistons or a team like more even like that. I can see a team like the latter beating a team like the lakers.

You're wrong. A team taylored to Kobe would be the same as a Jordan led team...Too bad it hasn't happened yet.

Jordan was the best who's ever done it, Kobe's not that great kid. The team is alreday taylored to Kobe and he's gotten them nowhere.

If the team is taylored to Kobe, why is he voicing his displeasure with the roster holes? Can you TRY to make sense at least?

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

i agree, watching both players the TALENT  IS THERE. however, no one has shown confidence in them. Kwame was rejected by jordan and kobe (basically) how much of an ego boost is that. and nobody talks about smush parker in a good light. so how can you succeed when you're not filled with confidence.  

 a leader should be able to build you up PAST your potential. how the fuck does an aged team like the Heat go to eastern conf. finals twice in a row and win the championship the other year. how does a team like that make it as the 4th seed when in all honesty they shouldn't have even made the playoffs.  you know how? leadership (granted that leadership is deteriorating now) but on paper those heat teams were not that impressive for what they've done in the past three years, but they still pulled through.

If kobe was a leader , the laker team he had his first year without shaq should have at least made it to the playoffs as a 7-8th seed.
If kobe was a leader, they should have beaten the suns last year
If kobe was a leader,  he would have learned from these past mistakes.

Kobe is going to be known for what he did for HIMSELF, not for his team

You don't truly believe this, man, do you? Kobe shoulda made the playoffs that year where Frank Hamblen took over mid-way through that disasterous season!? LMAO. They shoulda' beaten the Suns last year, despite being overmatched in experience AND talent level? What did Kobe not do? Jake, your thoughts are absurd. You could put ANY player EVER on this same Laker team in place of Kobe, and they would NOT have fared any better...Do you realize how much Kobe tried doing for Kwame? if you watched Laker games you'd know this. He instilled all the confidence in the world in him, but he simply couldn't come through 100% this year. He forced the ball into Kwame, passed up shots to feed him, he would big him up after every made shot, jump on him after a big dunk, etc... he did what Jordan didn't.

What did Jordan do for his teammates that Kobe didn't? Seriously Jake, I'd like to hear it...

1. i don't see why they couldn't have made the playoffs, if kobe was as good as you said he was he'd be able to win, remember he had Caron Butler and Lamar odom with him, plus a few pieces from the good ol' days . kobe was/is an experienced veterine, that's what makes/made sam cassell so useful on the bucks/wolves/clippers. Rudy T. was a good coach and frank tired to facilitate as well as he could you can't blame him....that's a sorry excuse the lakers still made the playoffs with rambus remember? that was an even WORSE trade off IMO. and they still managed.

2. as you said the lakers were "one rebound" away from winning, what happend after game 4? you mean to tell me that those 3 wins were just flukes? no that was GOOD leadership FOR ONCE from kobe which i still commend him for to this day. but shit after game 4 they reverted to playing perverse, which resulted in a complete collapse in game 7, kobe was no where to be found. the lakers looked like they won the series after game 3 . kobe as a leader has to have that killer instinct to finish a series...which he's yet to do. even going back to the suns series in the first playoff run, much of the blame can be placed on kobe when we couldn't finish off the suns completely when he took over in the 4th quarters. we all hear know kobe hates losing but , i don't think he knows how to avoid that completely.

3. any player? okay, and i hate to sound cliche, but put shaq on that team and they'll at least make 8th seed. you can also put Duncan on there and you will have at least an 8th seed. my whole point is ....if kobe is suppose to be the 'mvp' he should be able to revolutionize any team he's on. if he's suppose to be the best player , in basically every aspect of the game, missing the playoffs and exiting the playoffs in the first round embarrassingly should not be acceptable BY ANY MEANS, it shouldn't happen. period.  no one is saying kobe isn't the beset offensive weapon. no one is saying he's not one of the best defensive weapons. no one is questioning his desire or clutch, or ANY OF THAT. what everyone is doubt and it's pretty obvious he's deficient in is LEADERSHIP. he gets an A in every category except that area.  that's why shaq and kobe worked so well when it worked.....Supreme dominance  offensively from inside and outside with shaq leading. wow what a combo that was. the leadership was THERE. now it's not and what do you have .....disappointment for the last 3 years.

1.LOL@they had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom. They were an EXPANSION team under a BRAND NEW COACH and a BRAND NEW SYSTEM. And before all that crumbling, with Rudy-T quitting and Lamar Odom being done for the season midway through, the Lakers were STILL 4 games above .500 that season...When disaster struck, they were forced to tank. Lakers made the playoffs with Rambis? If I remember correctly, they MISSED the playoffs that last year when James Worthy, Kurt Rambis, Byron Scott, Vlade Divac, etc. all played together. And if you're talking about the season Rambis coached, the Lakers were an experienced team LOADED with talent, he didn't implament a brand new offense and what not, so i don't see how that's even close comparable...

2.If you looked at it the right way, you would see that it was inexperience as a team which led Kobe's supporting cast to let him down in last years Suns series, not the other way around. Anyone within (and dedicated to) the Laker organization will tell you this...

3.LMAO@if you think Shaq in place of Kobe on these Lakers would be anything short of a lottery team. That's more hilarious than comparing the Shaq-Kobe 3peat teams to todays Kobe led Lakers. Come on now, PLEASE tell me you see the difference. I guess Shaq isn't a leader, considering he's a "champion" who got swept in the firts round this year. Considering his Magic teams were built to win, but he still could never win a championship "leading" them (AKA ruining chemistry, getting jealous of Penny, selling out, etc)... Shaq can't do it without someone like Kobe or Wade to will him there...Kobe is still 28, he at least still has time. If you didn't love Shaq so much, you'd see this...PeACe

[Don Jacob]

i agree, watching both players the TALENT  IS THERE. however, no one has shown confidence in them. Kwame was rejected by jordan and kobe (basically) how much of an ego boost is that. and nobody talks about smush parker in a good light. so how can you succeed when you're not filled with confidence.  

 a leader should be able to build you up PAST your potential. how the fuck does an aged team like the Heat go to eastern conf. finals twice in a row and win the championship the other year. how does a team like that make it as the 4th seed when in all honesty they shouldn't have even made the playoffs.  you know how? leadership (granted that leadership is deteriorating now) but on paper those heat teams were not that impressive for what they've done in the past three years, but they still pulled through.

If kobe was a leader , the laker team he had his first year without shaq should have at least made it to the playoffs as a 7-8th seed.
If kobe was a leader, they should have beaten the suns last year
If kobe was a leader,  he would have learned from these past mistakes.

Kobe is going to be known for what he did for HIMSELF, not for his team

You don't truly believe this, man, do you? Kobe shoulda made the playoffs that year where Frank Hamblen took over mid-way through that disasterous season!? LMAO. They shoulda' beaten the Suns last year, despite being overmatched in experience AND talent level? What did Kobe not do? Jake, your thoughts are absurd. You could put ANY player EVER on this same Laker team in place of Kobe, and they would NOT have fared any better...Do you realize how much Kobe tried doing for Kwame? if you watched Laker games you'd know this. He instilled all the confidence in the world in him, but he simply couldn't come through 100% this year. He forced the ball into Kwame, passed up shots to feed him, he would big him up after every made shot, jump on him after a big dunk, etc... he did what Jordan didn't.

What did Jordan do for his teammates that Kobe didn't? Seriously Jake, I'd like to hear it...

1. i don't see why they couldn't have made the playoffs, if kobe was as good as you said he was he'd be able to win, remember he had Caron Butler and Lamar odom with him, plus a few pieces from the good ol' days . kobe was/is an experienced veterine, that's what makes/made sam cassell so useful on the bucks/wolves/clippers. Rudy T. was a good coach and frank tired to facilitate as well as he could you can't blame him....that's a sorry excuse the lakers still made the playoffs with rambus remember? that was an even WORSE trade off IMO. and they still managed.

2. as you said the lakers were "one rebound" away from winning, what happend after game 4? you mean to tell me that those 3 wins were just flukes? no that was GOOD leadership FOR ONCE from kobe which i still commend him for to this day. but shit after game 4 they reverted to playing perverse, which resulted in a complete collapse in game 7, kobe was no where to be found. the lakers looked like they won the series after game 3 . kobe as a leader has to have that killer instinct to finish a series...which he's yet to do. even going back to the suns series in the first playoff run, much of the blame can be placed on kobe when we couldn't finish off the suns completely when he took over in the 4th quarters. we all hear know kobe hates losing but , i don't think he knows how to avoid that completely.

3. any player? okay, and i hate to sound cliche, but put shaq on that team and they'll at least make 8th seed. you can also put Duncan on there and you will have at least an 8th seed. my whole point is ....if kobe is suppose to be the 'mvp' he should be able to revolutionize any team he's on. if he's suppose to be the best player , in basically every aspect of the game, missing the playoffs and exiting the playoffs in the first round embarrassingly should not be acceptable BY ANY MEANS, it shouldn't happen. period.  no one is saying kobe isn't the beset offensive weapon. no one is saying he's not one of the best defensive weapons. no one is questioning his desire or clutch, or ANY OF THAT. what everyone is doubt and it's pretty obvious he's deficient in is LEADERSHIP. he gets an A in every category except that area.  that's why shaq and kobe worked so well when it worked.....Supreme dominance  offensively from inside and outside with shaq leading. wow what a combo that was. the leadership was THERE. now it's not and what do you have .....disappointment for the last 3 years.

1.LOL@they had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom. They were an EXPANSION team under a BRAND NEW COACH and a BRAND NEW SYSTEM. And before all that crumbling, with Rudy-T quitting and Lamar Odom being done for the season midway through, the Lakers were STILL 4 games above .500 that season...When disaster struck, they were forced to tank. Lakers made the playoffs with Rambis? If I remember correctly, they MISSED the playoffs that last year when James Worthy, Kurt Rambis, Byron Scott, Vlade Divac, etc. all played together. And if you're talking about the season Rambis coached, the Lakers were an experienced team LOADED with talent, he didn't implament a brand new offense and what not, so i don't see how that's even close comparable...

2.If you looked at it the right way, you would see that it was inexperience as a team which led Kobe's supporting cast to let him down in last years Suns series, not the other way around. Anyone within (and dedicated to) the Laker organization will tell you this...

3.LMAO@if you think Shaq in place of Kobe on these Lakers would be anything short of a lottery team. That's more hilarious than comparing the Shaq-Kobe 3peat teams to todays Kobe led Lakers. Come on now, PLEASE tell me you see the difference. I guess Shaq isn't a leader, considering he's a "champion" who got swept in the firts round this year. Considering his Magic teams were built to win, but he still could never win a championship "leading" them (AKA ruining chemistry, getting jealous of Penny, selling out, etc)... Shaq can't do it without someone like Kobe or Wade to will him there...Kobe is still 28, he at least still has time. If you didn't love Shaq so much, you'd see this...PeACe

1. caron butler is one hell of a player and lamar odom is one hell of a player. the lakers traded ONE player (shaq) for THREE. the heat went on to succeed and the lakers went on to fail,lol. that's all that needs to be said

2. kobe has won three titles, that's all the experience you need.  Sam cassell played a lesser role in his 2 championships and is able to turn franchises around. and again when kobe was utilized in the fourth quarter of the first round verses the suns (back in 2001) he let us down as well. he can't lead simple as that

3. shaq at 28 would do a better job with these lakers than kobe has. mark my words.  shaq has only missed the playoffs ONCE in his carreer....his first year. with out kobe he's been to the Finals twice, and has won many more playoff series and games without him (before and after kobe), sucess follows shaq , call it cooincidance if you want but the proof is in the pudding. kobe has yet to do any of that without shaq. i like how you convieniantly forget how the heat did better WITHOUT wade this year, and did better in the playoffs when they pounded it down to shaq as opposed to wade. ....good one.

[floatin_above_everything]

lamar leading the lakers is not a bad of thought, i'm sure if you got players that complimented his game, he'd be a more productive leader than kobe.

So if you had players to compliment Lamar's game as opposed to players to compliment Kobe's game, the Lakers would be better off?...LMFAO!

exactly, because , and this is my strong opinion now, after three seasons of watching kobe be about as consistant as a Sine wave at the helm for the past 11 or so years. i have NO CONFIDENCE in his leadership skills. players best suited to kobe's style are players who just stand and watch him OR a more Dominant player  with leadership skills where kobe is the second bannana.  A kobe lead team taylored perfectly to his style would be uneven and very dependent on Kobe.....like the lakers have been. A Lamar lead team, taylored perfectly to his game would be like the pistons or a team like more even like that. I can see a team like the latter beating a team like the lakers.

You're wrong. A team taylored to Kobe would be the same as a Jordan led team...Too bad it hasn't happened yet.

Jordan was the best who's ever done it, Kobe's not that great kid. The team is alreday taylored to Kobe and he's gotten them nowhere.

If the team is taylored to Kobe, why is he voicing his displeasure with the roster holes? Can you TRY to make sense at least?

Odom was supposed to be good on LA, so was Kwame Brown. The holes in the roster is just that the players suck now, it's not like theyve always sucked either. The team just lost there confidence. But it doens't matter what I say, youll always have an excuse....whats the point?

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

i agree, watching both players the TALENT  IS THERE. however, no one has shown confidence in them. Kwame was rejected by jordan and kobe (basically) how much of an ego boost is that. and nobody talks about smush parker in a good light. so how can you succeed when you're not filled with confidence. 

 a leader should be able to build you up PAST your potential. how the fuck does an aged team like the Heat go to eastern conf. finals twice in a row and win the championship the other year. how does a team like that make it as the 4th seed when in all honesty they shouldn't have even made the playoffs.  you know how? leadership (granted that leadership is deteriorating now) but on paper those heat teams were not that impressive for what they've done in the past three years, but they still pulled through.

If kobe was a leader , the laker team he had his first year without shaq should have at least made it to the playoffs as a 7-8th seed.
If kobe was a leader, they should have beaten the suns last year
If kobe was a leader,  he would have learned from these past mistakes.

Kobe is going to be known for what he did for HIMSELF, not for his team

You don't truly believe this, man, do you? Kobe shoulda made the playoffs that year where Frank Hamblen took over mid-way through that disasterous season!? LMAO. They shoulda' beaten the Suns last year, despite being overmatched in experience AND talent level? What did Kobe not do? Jake, your thoughts are absurd. You could put ANY player EVER on this same Laker team in place of Kobe, and they would NOT have fared any better...Do you realize how much Kobe tried doing for Kwame? if you watched Laker games you'd know this. He instilled all the confidence in the world in him, but he simply couldn't come through 100% this year. He forced the ball into Kwame, passed up shots to feed him, he would big him up after every made shot, jump on him after a big dunk, etc... he did what Jordan didn't.

What did Jordan do for his teammates that Kobe didn't? Seriously Jake, I'd like to hear it...

1. i don't see why they couldn't have made the playoffs, if kobe was as good as you said he was he'd be able to win, remember he had Caron Butler and Lamar odom with him, plus a few pieces from the good ol' days . kobe was/is an experienced veterine, that's what makes/made sam cassell so useful on the bucks/wolves/clippers. Rudy T. was a good coach and frank tired to facilitate as well as he could you can't blame him....that's a sorry excuse the lakers still made the playoffs with rambus remember? that was an even WORSE trade off IMO. and they still managed.

2. as you said the lakers were "one rebound" away from winning, what happend after game 4? you mean to tell me that those 3 wins were just flukes? no that was GOOD leadership FOR ONCE from kobe which i still commend him for to this day. but shit after game 4 they reverted to playing perverse, which resulted in a complete collapse in game 7, kobe was no where to be found. the lakers looked like they won the series after game 3 . kobe as a leader has to have that killer instinct to finish a series...which he's yet to do. even going back to the suns series in the first playoff run, much of the blame can be placed on kobe when we couldn't finish off the suns completely when he took over in the 4th quarters. we all hear know kobe hates losing but , i don't think he knows how to avoid that completely.

3. any player? okay, and i hate to sound cliche, but put shaq on that team and they'll at least make 8th seed. you can also put Duncan on there and you will have at least an 8th seed. my whole point is ....if kobe is suppose to be the 'mvp' he should be able to revolutionize any team he's on. if he's suppose to be the best player , in basically every aspect of the game, missing the playoffs and exiting the playoffs in the first round embarrassingly should not be acceptable BY ANY MEANS, it shouldn't happen. period.  no one is saying kobe isn't the beset offensive weapon. no one is saying he's not one of the best defensive weapons. no one is questioning his desire or clutch, or ANY OF THAT. what everyone is doubt and it's pretty obvious he's deficient in is LEADERSHIP. he gets an A in every category except that area.  that's why shaq and kobe worked so well when it worked.....Supreme dominance  offensively from inside and outside with shaq leading. wow what a combo that was. the leadership was THERE. now it's not and what do you have .....disappointment for the last 3 years.

1.LOL@they had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom. They were an EXPANSION team under a BRAND NEW COACH and a BRAND NEW SYSTEM. And before all that crumbling, with Rudy-T quitting and Lamar Odom being done for the season midway through, the Lakers were STILL 4 games above .500 that season...When disaster struck, they were forced to tank. Lakers made the playoffs with Rambis? If I remember correctly, they MISSED the playoffs that last year when James Worthy, Kurt Rambis, Byron Scott, Vlade Divac, etc. all played together. And if you're talking about the season Rambis coached, the Lakers were an experienced team LOADED with talent, he didn't implament a brand new offense and what not, so i don't see how that's even close comparable...

2.If you looked at it the right way, you would see that it was inexperience as a team which led Kobe's supporting cast to let him down in last years Suns series, not the other way around. Anyone within (and dedicated to) the Laker organization will tell you this...

3.LMAO@if you think Shaq in place of Kobe on these Lakers would be anything short of a lottery team. That's more hilarious than comparing the Shaq-Kobe 3peat teams to todays Kobe led Lakers. Come on now, PLEASE tell me you see the difference. I guess Shaq isn't a leader, considering he's a "champion" who got swept in the firts round this year. Considering his Magic teams were built to win, but he still could never win a championship "leading" them (AKA ruining chemistry, getting jealous of Penny, selling out, etc)... Shaq can't do it without someone like Kobe or Wade to will him there...Kobe is still 28, he at least still has time. If you didn't love Shaq so much, you'd see this...PeACe

1. caron butler is one hell of a player and lamar odom is one hell of a player. the lakers traded ONE player (shaq) for THREE. the heat went on to succeed and the lakers went on to fail,lol. that's all that needs to be said

2. kobe has won three titles, that's all the experience you need.  Sam cassell played a lesser role in his 2 championships and is able to turn franchises around. and again when kobe was utilized in the fourth quarter of the first round verses the suns (back in 2001) he let us down as well. he can't lead simple as that

3. shaq at 28 would do a better job with these lakers than kobe has. mark my words.  shaq has only missed the playoffs ONCE in his carreer....his first year. with out kobe he's been to the Finals twice, and has won many more playoff series and games without him (before and after kobe), sucess follows shaq , call it cooincidance if you want but the proof is in the pudding. kobe has yet to do any of that without shaq. i like how you convieniantly forget how the heat did better WITHOUT wade this year, and did better in the playoffs when they pounded it down to shaq as opposed to wade. ....good one.

1.Yea, too bad Lamar Odom went down for the season around the same time Rudy-T quit. LOL@acting like the Shaq trade is the only thing that happened that year. We signed Divac as our center, he couldnt play. Brain Grant was always injured and useless. Fisher left, Malone left, Horry left, Payton left, Fox left, Rush left, Horace left, Russell left,  IT WAS A COMPLETELY NEW TEAM. You acting otherwise in favor of the Heat doesn't really look too good. Shaq took the Heat from the 2nd round to the 3rd, with a much improved Wade, the same year he guartanteed a championship, and the same year he worked his ass off and lost all that weight to lead them...He only won when backing off, when he got lazy, when Wade became the leader and took over. LOL.

2. Cassell has been able to turn franchises around? LMAO. Maybe he's capable of being the final piece to put things together, but claiming he's turned franchises around is insane. Kobe saved Shaq COUNTLESS times in the playoffs/finals and definitely had his share of moments where he carried the Lakers on his back during the threepeat era. When Shaq let us down, got in foul trouble, benched because of Hack-a-Shaq , was too fat to play, etc., Kobe was ALWAYS the one to clean it up for him.

3. Shaq has NEVER played on a team without an all-star guard carrying him. Shaq on these Lakers would be LOST. The end.

[Now_Im_Not_Banned]

lamar leading the lakers is not a bad of thought, i'm sure if you got players that complimented his game, he'd be a more productive leader than kobe.

So if you had players to compliment Lamar's game as opposed to players to compliment Kobe's game, the Lakers would be better off?...LMFAO!

exactly, because , and this is my strong opinion now, after three seasons of watching kobe be about as consistant as a Sine wave at the helm for the past 11 or so years. i have NO CONFIDENCE in his leadership skills. players best suited to kobe's style are players who just stand and watch him OR a more Dominant player  with leadership skills where kobe is the second bannana.  A kobe lead team taylored perfectly to his style would be uneven and very dependent on Kobe.....like the lakers have been. A Lamar lead team, taylored perfectly to his game would be like the pistons or a team like more even like that. I can see a team like the latter beating a team like the lakers.

You're wrong. A team taylored to Kobe would be the same as a Jordan led team...Too bad it hasn't happened yet.

Jordan was the best who's ever done it, Kobe's not that great kid. The team is alreday taylored to Kobe and he's gotten them nowhere.

If the team is taylored to Kobe, why is he voicing his displeasure with the roster holes? Can you TRY to make sense at least?

Odom was supposed to be good on LA, so was Kwame Brown. The holes in the roster is just that the players suck now, it's not like theyve always sucked either. The team just lost there confidence. But it doens't matter what I say, youll always have an excuse....whats the point?

Odom isn't good? LMFAO! It's not that I have an excuse, it's just that what you say is pretty much mostly you speaking out of your ass...Kwame played the best basketball of his career in the final months of last season. I guess it's somehow Kobe's fault that he's been playing on some hobbled ankles this whole season, huh?

LOL. I just wonder what you'd say if Kobe was reported calling Kwame a "flaming faggot".

[floatin_above_everything]

lamar leading the lakers is not a bad of thought, i'm sure if you got players that complimented his game, he'd be a more productive leader than kobe.

So if you had players to compliment Lamar's game as opposed to players to compliment Kobe's game, the Lakers would be better off?...LMFAO!

exactly, because , and this is my strong opinion now, after three seasons of watching kobe be about as consistant as a Sine wave at the helm for the past 11 or so years. i have NO CONFIDENCE in his leadership skills. players best suited to kobe's style are players who just stand and watch him OR a more Dominant player  with leadership skills where kobe is the second bannana.  A kobe lead team taylored perfectly to his style would be uneven and very dependent on Kobe.....like the lakers have been. A Lamar lead team, taylored perfectly to his game would be like the pistons or a team like more even like that. I can see a team like the latter beating a team like the lakers.

You're wrong. A team taylored to Kobe would be the same as a Jordan led team...Too bad it hasn't happened yet.

Jordan was the best who's ever done it, Kobe's not that great kid. The team is alreday taylored to Kobe and he's gotten them nowhere.

If the team is taylored to Kobe, why is he voicing his displeasure with the roster holes? Can you TRY to make sense at least?

Odom was supposed to be good on LA, so was Kwame Brown. The holes in the roster is just that the players suck now, it's not like theyve always sucked either. The team just lost there confidence. But it doens't matter what I say, youll always have an excuse....whats the point?

Odom isn't good? LMFAO! It's not that I have an excuse, it's just that what you say is pretty much mostly you speaking out of your ass...Kwame played the best basketball of his career in the final months of last season. I guess it's somehow Kobe's fault that he's been playing on some hobbled ankles this whole season, huh?

LOL. I just wonder what you'd say if Kobe was reported calling Kwame a "flaming faggot".

I'd say Kobe's an even worse teammate obviously. How does that relate to the thread?

And just in general LMFAO at your tough guy act. Odom is not that good, not allstar caliber. And stop making excuses for Kwame, many players play well through ingury. If you want to be a center in the West, you gotta bring more effort than Kwame brings. And if Kwame played the best basketball of his career this season, that doesn't say much for his career then.