Would anyone else feel differently bout joining the military if Obama was prez?

[J Bananas]

All I got to say is don't join the military if you're looking to make money. They line of shit they sell you is indeed a line of shit.

And joining purely on his race and ethnic background makes you look like a misguided self hating racist.

[Narrator]

I agree with what you have just said but "They" simply referred to the military and when i say they have turned them into monsters, you have to look at the torture being instigated in the prisons which was taught to them by the CIA instructors, that is after all what the reports conclude into the torture, they are not the acts of individuals but systematic torture whose techniques have been taught to them by experts in that field. I was referring to turning soldiers into monsters because despite the stresses and strains which the soldiers have already born the brunt of, they then make things ten times worse for them by forcing them to stay on the tour much longer, or forcing them to go back, extending the number of tours they have done. Finally when their commanders tell them everyone is an enemy and so to ascertain all enemies are dead, that you must kill everyone regarding of age and gender, then clearly they are turned into monsters.

You make a good point the savagery and horrors of vietnam were beyond words but this is much worse now because while these events and incidents were deplored, now they are justified and the perfect example being the torture, the response was well so what torture has always been a part of the dirty side of the game. That completely misses the bigger point, by justifying torture in such a public manner, it starts the torrid slippery slope into which morality is waved goodbye as it drowns under the weight of such depravity.

Do you think this has EVER been any different? Every Western country in the world has these kinds of skeletons. The only thing is, some are better covered up than others. This is certainly no worse than Vietnam. The "stop-loss" policy you are referring to is not a result of an evil conspiracy; it's a result of the fact that we really don't have a viable solution to dealing with insurgencies yet, besides throwing lots of troops into the mix until a compromise between the factions (Badr Shi'a vs. Sadr Shi'a vs. Sunni vs. Kurds vs. whoever else), which, in the case of Iraq, is pretty much impossible.

Really, the conspiracy theories just don't make sense, no matter how much Prison Planet stuff you may read convincing you otherwise. The U.S. government has always been evil, but since Bush, the main difference is that the government has become evil and incompetent. Like going from truly fascist-type evil to something more like Dr. Evil-type evil. If the Bush administration were really as incredibly calculating, vicious, and intelligent as you believe, they would actually have a lid on this type of shit. What do you think Hitler or Stalin would have done with restless minorities? Do you really think they'd torture a handful of prisoners here and there to extract info and have the troops massacre a village here and there? Read about dekulakization and then you'll have an idea.

[virtuoso]

I already know about dekulakisation, having read the book harvest of sorrow you are assuming too many things. It is you who is talking about "conspiracy theories" i am only talking on what is actually happening not on speculation. You completely and utterly missed the point things are worse now because unlike stalin, who was referred to as the compassionate uncle joe, now it's justifying torture, the bolsheviks never openly talked about what they were doing.

Now if you wanted to look at the actual conspiracy in Iraq in particular, it was disbanding all institutions and creating the fake photos, the fake stories of Al Queda connections, the weapons of mass destruction. Therefore I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, if you wish me to address something, you could make it a little more direct.

Also while we are on the subject of conspiracies, the PNAC document Rebuilding Americas Defences is a conspiracy is it not? and for all of this dismissive talk I bet you haven't once read it have you?

[Narrator]

I already know about dekulakisation, having read the book harvest of sorrow you are assuming too many things. It is you who is talking about "conspiracy theories" i am only talking on what is actually happening not on speculation. You completely and utterly missed the point things are worse now because unlike stalin, who was referred to as the compassionate uncle joe, now it's justifying torture, the bolsheviks never openly talked about what they were doing.

Now if you wanted to look at the actual conspiracy in Iraq in particular, it was disbanding all institutions and creating the fake photos, the fake stories of Al Queda connections, the weapons of mass destruction. Therefore I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, if you wish me to address something, you could make it a little more direct.

Also while we are on the subject of conspiracies, the PNAC document Rebuilding Americas Defences is a conspiracy is it not? and for all of this dismissive talk I bet you haven't once read it have you?

I've heard it and I know what it's about, but no, I have never read it.

You call that a "conspiracy"? It was anything but. Anyone who has ever read an encyclopedia article about Iraq knew that (1.) Saddam was a secular Baa'thist who was hated by the Sunni Islamists like Osama (not to mention the Sadrists and Badrists whom he had repressed for years), and (2.) The infrastructure for Saddam's WMD program had pretty much been smashed but that he needed people to THINK he still had it for domestic security (i.e. the way he put down the Kurds in 1988). You may also recall around April-May of 2003, Bush's people were also trying to get public support for military operations against Syria because they were claiming Saddam had fled there and might have stashed the WMDs there (which is more bullshit, because the Syrian branch of the Baa'thist Party have had a rivalry with the Iraqi branch for many decades now).

Did Bush take advantage of the fact that most Americans are dumb fucking Baptist redneck morons who think every Arab government is an "Islamic fundamentalist" regime? Yes. But is that a "conspiracy"? No. It's not a "conspiracy" when you're spouting nonsense that is easily discredited by 5 minutes of Internet research. Unfortunately, you seem to have this idea that nobody but you is capable of reading conspiracy sites online, so therefore, it's somehow a "conspiracy" when our notoriously retarded president thinks he's going to get away with lying and/or exaggerating facts in public.

I also don't know what you're talking about with the Bolsheviks because they openly talked of needing to cleanse "counter-revolutionary" elements and loved to incite people to rally violently against them. You cannot legitimately compare the American government to the Bolsheviks or Nazis because the level of cleansing is not at all comparable. When the U.S. and Iraqi Armies go into Sadr City, round up the entire population, and place them in concentration camps in order to weed out the insurgents...that's when you'd have something comparable.

[virtuoso]

I give up lol you haven;t ever read the document and yet you dismiss a bigger conspiring against the frigging world not alone the people. I never said anything about an extermination policy akin to the bolsheviks either, I said and I repeat, there has NEVER been a time where openly governments are trying to sell people that torture is a good thing. Yes I do call a a conspiracy to create lies which leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, yes I call it a conspiracy to disband every government institution knowing the chaos it would bring.

I am done responding to you when you have never even read the central think tank document to this all though, so keep ranting about me being a "conspiracy theorist" if you like, it really doesn't matter.

[Narrator]

I give up lol you haven;t ever read the document and yet you dismiss a bigger conspiring against the frigging world not alone the people. I never said anything about an extermination policy akin to the bolsheviks either, I said and I repeat, there has NEVER been a time where openly governments are trying to sell people that torture is a good thing. Yes I do call a a conspiracy to create lies which leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, yes I call it a conspiracy to disband every government institution knowing the chaos it would bring.

I am done responding to you when you have never even read the central think tank document to this all though, so keep ranting about me being a "conspiracy theorist" if you like, it really doesn't matter.

I never said you did. Only that you can't make the comparison unless such a policy exists.

I don't think anyone really accepts that torture is a good thing, just as nobody really accepted the rationale for invading Iraq. I think many people just kind of accept the hopelessness that tends to pervade to the point where they don't care. And for what it's worth, the average American doesn't find the average insurgent in Iraq to be all that sympathetic. I mean, these are people who cut off heads and want to spread a totalitarian ideology that's every bit as fucked up as fascism and Marxism.

[Australian Bastard]

I reackon you are both right, there is often no need for a formal conspiracy because people are incredibly predictable and will usually play their part.
As I said, i got friends in the army and there is no secret about war, it changes people with or without orders from the top.

However, i still think there are some think-tanks out there constantly going through possible future scenarios, working ever to shape the future, like the Princess Diana car crash, that shit was murder IMO. Can you imagine her alive today with an Arab husband? It would've made things difficult for the military to do what they have done since then without her dead, she wouldve been an obstacle culturally and media wise. In all my glorious paranoia, I believe there are mutherfuckers out there doing the little things that alter the flow of history...

[virtuoso]

For sure think tanks have that objective in mind, they are actively mapping out scenarios for every aspect of politics, focus groups are created with the intention in mind of studying analysing and assessing peoples mind frame to those scenarios, to those individual politicians, to particular policies, to particular social groups etc. It's no secret that political groups employs psychologists to map out for them and draw them a picture of where the political landscape lies.

[Hood$tar]

If you're honestly thinking about joining the Navy for money, and getting out in 3 or 4 years, you shouldn't pursue a military career at all. The pay in the Navy sucks when you first enlist, and from the pay grades of E-1 to E-4, you have to live on military base, and advancing up to an E-5 takes anywhere between 8 and 13 years, depending on your conduct, aptitude, and performance. But if you do want to join, I would reccommend Nurse Corps, which is a slack job, but they give you free college education, and you only have to serve 4 to 6 years to get an honorable discharge