Why So Many Old People Are Stupid

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

You don't seem to be getting the point. Eminem on a record is not Eminem in real life. It's a manufactured personality for a record that may or may not take things from his real life. You can't take for granted the things rappers say on records. Back to the Ice Cube example. Ice Cube is one of the greatest rap storytellers because of Amerikkka's Most Wanted, an album which gave a classic ghetto narrative of the young, angry black gangbanger -- key word, "storyteller." Ice Cube has never gangbanged in his life and he wasn't talking about actual events from his life on that album. He took the general atmosphere of the ghetto and what he saw others going through and he crafted a musical story out of it. The Cube on his early records was misogynist, and violent and racist and all these things which Cube has turned out not to be in real life. You check out Cube in interviews and he seems like a chill, down-to-earth dude, nothing like the Cube on his early records, or even his records today. That's because the Cube on the album is not the Cube in real life and its silly to believe otherwise. You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies and that it has somehow hurt his credibility. The truth is that ALL of these rappers are making stories to some degree. Some may draw upon real world events, but I guarantee you it is a story nonetheless. Clearly some music can incorporate real life situations and feelings (probably Em's Lose Yourself for example), but you shouldn't assume so and it should be fairly obvious when it doesn't (Em's more silly songs)

You should read up on the "poetic voice", and how it is not the same as the creator of the work, because I feel a lot of hip hop fans aren't aware of what that is and what is actually going on with the creation of the music.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

You don't seem to be getting the point. Eminem on a record is not Eminem in real life. It's a manufactured personality for a record that may or may not take things from his real life. You can't take for granted the things rappers say on records. Back to the Ice Cube example. Ice Cube is one of the greatest rap storytellers because of Amerikkka's Most Wanted, an album which gave a classic ghetto narrative of the young, angry black gangbanger -- key word, "storyteller." Ice Cube has never gangbanged in his life and he wasn't talking about actual events from his life on that album. He took the general atmosphere of the ghetto and what he saw others going through and he crafted a musical story out of it. The Cube on his early records was misogynist, and violent and racist and all these things which Cube has turned out not to be in real life. You check out Cube in interviews and he seems like a chill, down-to-earth dude, nothing like the Cube on his early records, or even his records today. That's because the Cube on the album is not the Cube in real life and its silly to believe otherwise. You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies and that it has somehow hurt his credibility. The truth is that ALL of these rappers are making stories to some degree. Some may draw upon real world events, but I guarantee you it is a story nonetheless. Clearly some music can incorporate real life situations and feelings (probably Em's Lose Yourself for example), but you shouldn't assume so and it should be fairly obvious when it doesn't (Em's more silly songs)

You should read up on the "poetic voice", and how it is not the same as the creator of the work, because I feel a lot of hip hop fans aren't aware of what that is and what is actually going on with the creation of the music.

It sounds like you aren't even reading what I'm posting.  Because I gave props to Ice Cube for his progression into the film industry, and then right after that you posted "You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies that somehow hurt his credibility".

Maybe we still aren't understanding each other.  So why don't I again use Dre as an example.  Because Dre is somebody that doesn't even write his own lyrics and openly admits that what he does is for Entertainment and not close to being an accurate reflection of his life.

Somebody like Dre, is an artist.  He showed progression in his life throughout his career.  He has continued to grow and "get smarter".  NWA topped Wrecking Crew, Death Row topped NWA, and Aftermath in some ways has topped Death Row, which is remarkable for an artist at his age in the field of hip-hop.  So that is showing growth as an artist, and since that's how Dre defines himself that is also growth as a person for him. The fact that he was wise enough to leave Death Row before it's collapse and took a stand against the East Coast/West Coast beef ("East Coast/West Coast Killaz") is all icing on the cake as well.

...To sum it up, you are too caught up on trying to prove to me that rappers are different people in real life from their characters on record.  I am saying, that regardless, if a rapper defines himself as an artist and that is the primary purpose of his life, then his growth as an artist = growth as a person and will be reflected on record.  The sound will change or progress, and since as an artist is how they define themselves, then that is also way of growing as a person for them.  

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

You don't seem to be getting the point. Eminem on a record is not Eminem in real life. It's a manufactured personality for a record that may or may not take things from his real life. You can't take for granted the things rappers say on records. Back to the Ice Cube example. Ice Cube is one of the greatest rap storytellers because of Amerikkka's Most Wanted, an album which gave a classic ghetto narrative of the young, angry black gangbanger -- key word, "storyteller." Ice Cube has never gangbanged in his life and he wasn't talking about actual events from his life on that album. He took the general atmosphere of the ghetto and what he saw others going through and he crafted a musical story out of it. The Cube on his early records was misogynist, and violent and racist and all these things which Cube has turned out not to be in real life. You check out Cube in interviews and he seems like a chill, down-to-earth dude, nothing like the Cube on his early records, or even his records today. That's because the Cube on the album is not the Cube in real life and its silly to believe otherwise. You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies and that it has somehow hurt his credibility. The truth is that ALL of these rappers are making stories to some degree. Some may draw upon real world events, but I guarantee you it is a story nonetheless. Clearly some music can incorporate real life situations and feelings (probably Em's Lose Yourself for example), but you shouldn't assume so and it should be fairly obvious when it doesn't (Em's more silly songs)

You should read up on the "poetic voice", and how it is not the same as the creator of the work, because I feel a lot of hip hop fans aren't aware of what that is and what is actually going on with the creation of the music.

It sounds like you aren't even reading what I'm posting.  Because I gave props to Ice Cube for his progression into the film industry, and then right after that you posted "You seem like one of those guys who gets pissed off that Cube makes kids movies that somehow hurt his credibility".

Maybe we still aren't understanding each other.  So why don't I again use Dre as an example.  Because Dre is somebody that doesn't even write his own lyrics and openly admits that what he does is for Entertainment and not close to being an accurate reflection of his life.

Somebody like Dre, is an artist.  He showed progression in his life throughout his career.  He has continued to grow and "get smarter".  NWA topped Wrecking Crew, Death Row topped NWA, and Aftermath in some ways has topped Death Row, which is remarkable for an artist at his age in the field of hip-hop.  So that is showing growth as an artist, and since that's how Dre defines himself that is also growth as a person for him. The fact that he was wise enough to leave Death Row before it's collapse and took a stand against the East Coast/West Coast beef ("East Coast/West Coast Killaz") is all icing on the cake as well.

...To sum it up, you are too caught up on trying to prove to me that rappers are different people in real life from their characters on record.  I am saying, that regardless, if a rapper defines himself as an artist and that is the primary purpose of his life, then his growth as an artist = growth as a person and will be reflected on record.  The sound will change or progress, and since as an artist is how they define themselves, then that is also way of growing as a person for them.  

For one, Dr. Dre's music doesn't show progression in his life. It shows progression in his production technique. He could have continued to grow and get smarter for all we know, but it wouldn't be evident through any of his lyrics. In fact, going by your logic he wouldn't have changed at all because the content of his lyrics have barely changed.

Where are you getting this idea music defines the person making it? Lets take me. I write lyrics on the side. Now I don't actually put music out, but if I did, the music wouldn't define me as a person. Hell, most of the lyrics I write are me writing from someone else's perspective. Just because someone is a music artist doesn't make music their "primary purpose in life." Who the fuck are you to assume what Eminem's primary purpose in life is? I don't know Em personally but I'm pretty damn sure that if he had to choose between making music or being a father to his daughter, the music would go out the window. Making music is like a job. The dude who works at Dennys isn't defined by his job. You aren't defined by what you choose to do to make income. And I don't think there's any question that Eminem's particular style at each moment were choices designed to cater to his audience (aka, to sell the most records).

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

For one, Dr. Dre's music doesn't show progression in his life. It shows progression in his production technique. He could have continued to grow and get smarter for all we know, but it wouldn't be evident through any of his lyrics. In fact, going by your logic he wouldn't have changed at all because the content of his lyrics have barely changed.

Where are you getting this idea music defines the person making it? Lets take me. I write lyrics on the side. Now I don't actually put music out, but if I did, the music wouldn't define me as a person. Hell, most of the lyrics I write are me writing from someone else's perspective. Just because someone is a music artist doesn't make music their "primary purpose in life." Who the fuck are you to assume what Eminem's primary purpose in life is? I don't know Em personally but I'm pretty damn sure that if he had to choose between making music or being a father to his daughter, the music would go out the window. Making music is like a job. The dude who works at Dennys isn't defined by his job. You aren't defined by what you choose to do to make income. And I don't think there's any question that Eminem's particular style at each moment were choices designed to cater to his audience (aka, to sell the most records).

There are many ways in which a person can show continuous growth in their life.  And art is only One of them.  So especially in the case of a true artist, which I believe Eminem is (if you don't, that's fine, believe what you want)... his artwork, his music, is often going to be an area where you can gauge his growth as a person.  It doesn't mean that if his music sucks he's suddenly becoming "dumber".  Because, like you said, maybe he is growing and developing in other aspects of his life, such as fatherhood.  Music/art is just one example of an aspect in which people can show growth in their life.

The reason I made this point in the first place, is I'm sure a high school teacher probably viewed Eminem growing up as a failure, as immature.  Em has even mentioned this in his songs how he was viewed as a failure who wasn't doing anything with his life.  Yet, in the aspect that was most important to him, in his craft, in his music, his art; he was growing and developing as a person faster then they were.

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

For one, Dr. Dre's music doesn't show progression in his life. It shows progression in his production technique. He could have continued to grow and get smarter for all we know, but it wouldn't be evident through any of his lyrics. In fact, going by your logic he wouldn't have changed at all because the content of his lyrics have barely changed.

Where are you getting this idea music defines the person making it? Lets take me. I write lyrics on the side. Now I don't actually put music out, but if I did, the music wouldn't define me as a person. Hell, most of the lyrics I write are me writing from someone else's perspective. Just because someone is a music artist doesn't make music their "primary purpose in life." Who the fuck are you to assume what Eminem's primary purpose in life is? I don't know Em personally but I'm pretty damn sure that if he had to choose between making music or being a father to his daughter, the music would go out the window. Making music is like a job. The dude who works at Dennys isn't defined by his job. You aren't defined by what you choose to do to make income. And I don't think there's any question that Eminem's particular style at each moment were choices designed to cater to his audience (aka, to sell the most records).

There are many ways in which a person can show continuous growth in their life.  And art is only One of them.  So especially in the case of a true artist, which I believe Eminem is (if you don't, that's fine, believe what you want)... his artwork, his music, is often going to be an area where you can gauge his growth as a person.  It doesn't mean that if his music sucks he's suddenly becoming "dumber".  Because, like you said, maybe he is growing and developing in other aspects of his life, such as fatherhood.  Music/art is just one example of an aspect in which people can show growth in their life.

The reason I made this point in the first place, is I'm sure a high school teacher probably viewed Eminem growing up as a failure, as immature.  Em has even mentioned this in his songs how he was viewed as a failure who wasn't doing anything with his life.  Yet, in the aspect that was most important to him, in his craft, in his music, his art; he was growing and developing as a person faster then they were.

First you were talking about his lyrics, now you seem to be talking about his success. If he was an underground no-name would you still be talking about personal growth? NO, then that comes down to his successful career, not his growth as a person. I think you are confusing the two. Good music and success don't go hand in hand. Arguably, his most intellectual records were made before he got famous. But that completely contradicts what you seem to be trying to say. In my opinion, Eminem today is smarter than Eminem before or during the time he blew up. But that is based on what I have seen of him outside of records, NOT the state of his music.

I still think you're a fool if you gauge personal growth by the personality of a record. Once again, there is this thing called the "poetic voice," which is rarely the same as the poet. If you believe Eminem is a "true artist", then you would know about the poetic voice and that it is used by "true artists." I think hip hop fans get too caught up in "keeping it real" and forget that it is art, not a biographical story. In other words, the art may impersonate reality, but it is not in fact reality.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

First you were talking about his lyrics, now you seem to be talking about his success. If he was an underground no-name would you still be talking about personal growth? NO, then that comes down to his successful career, not his growth as a person. I think you are confusing the two. Good music and success don't go hand in hand. Arguably, his most intellectual records were made before he got famous. But that completely contradicts what you seem to be trying to say. In my opinion, Eminem today is smarter than Eminem before or during the time he blew up. But that is based on what I have seen of him outside of records, NOT the state of his music.

No, my continued use of the word "art" should have made you realize I was talking about the artistic value of his work and not it's commercial success.  Although at times the two can of course be related to one another.

I still think you're a fool if you gauge personal growth by the personality of a record. Once again, there is this thing called the "poetic voice," which is rarely the same as the poet. If you believe Eminem is a "true artist", then you would know about the poetic voice and that it is used by "true artists." I think hip hop fans get too caught up in "keeping it real" and forget that it is art, not a biographical story. In other words, the art may impersonate reality, but it is not in fact reality.

I still think you're a fool for totally writing off the fact that a person's value's and way of life will be reflected in their lyrics.  Cause although Eminem may not of killed anybody it's still an expression of angst, or of a thought that was going on in his brain at the time.  If Eminem and Kim had a relationship where they never fought and they were like Michelle and Barack Obama or something then I seriously doubt he would of made songs as powerful as "97 Bonnie and Clyde" and "Kim".  Because although it's fantasy, you can hear the pain in his voice.  For example, 2pac wouldn't say "Fuck You Afeni" on a record because he loved his mom and they had a beautiful relationship, but Eminem had a very rough relationship with his mom, and it was reflected in his lyrics.

And even somebody like Dre who openly admits to doing it for Entertainment and had ghostwriters the number of times he rapped about killing people on the "2001" album was remarkably less then his younger days of the "Chronic" period when he was in and out of jail, and not quite as reclusive and far away from street cats.

[ikke]

Seeing how this thread is already derailed.
I always saw the serious eminem songs like stan as another marketing gimmick.
After SSLP pissed of the parents of the teens who listened to it, em needed to show a serious side to please them so that the kids would still be allowed to listen to Eminem.

[Triple OG Rapsodie]

No, my continued use of the word "art" should have made you realize I was talking about the artistic value of his work and not it's commercial success.  Although at times the two can of course be related to one another.

yes, but if you want to talk about his music as art, then you should be aware of the "poetic voice" and how it is different from the person who writes the lyrics. Of course it CAN reflect some of what the person is feeling. BUT YOU SHOULDN'T ASSUME SO. That's a necessity for interpreting art or poetry. IE the poet Milton. Scholars who study Milton don't use his poetry to define his life. It's the other way around, they use his life to understand his poems. In fact some of the feelings expressed in his poetry are contrary to his actual beliefs. Some of it was used for other reasons or to pander to certain people. (I'm taking a class on Milton right now, lol). Of course that's quite different from Eminem, but I'm using the same concept. You can't use his lyrics to assume what his life or personal beliefs are.

I still think you're a fool for totally writing off the fact that a person's value's and way of life will be reflected in their lyrics.  Cause although Eminem may not of killed anybody it's still an expression of angst, or of a thought that was going on in his brain at the time.  If Eminem and Kim had a relationship where they never fought and they were like Michelle and Barack Obama or something then I seriously doubt he would of made songs as powerful as "97 Bonnie and Clyde" and "Kim".  Because although it's fantasy, you can hear the pain in his voice.  For example, 2pac wouldn't say "Fuck You Afeni" on a record because he loved his mom and they had a beautiful relationship, but Eminem had a very rough relationship with his mom, and it was reflected in his lyrics.

And even somebody like Dre who openly admits to doing it for Entertainment and had ghostwriters the number of times he rapped about killing people on the "2001" album was remarkably less then his younger days of the "Chronic" period when he was in and out of jail, and not quite as reclusive and far away from street cats.

I'm not completely writing off that his lyrics can reflect some of his feelings, I'm saying that you don't know what is or isn't based on his personal values. You can't listen to a song lyric and say "this is what Eminem believes or this is how he feels." You have to look at the man Marshall Mathers, find out his personal values from REALITY, and then use that to understand his music, not the other way around. Trust me on this. I may not be a rapper, but I do write lyrics and poetry, and half the time what I write isn't a reflection on my state of mind.

[TraceOneInfinite Flat Earther 96']

I'm not completely writing off that his lyrics can reflect some of his feelings, I'm saying that you don't know what is or isn't based on his personal values. You can't listen to a song lyric and say "this is what Eminem believes or this is how he feels." You have to look at the man Marshall Mathers, find out his personal values from REALITY, and then use that to understand his music, not the other way around. Trust me on this. I may not be a rapper, but I do write lyrics and poetry, and half the time what I write isn't a reflection on my state of mind.

I can pretty much tell where Em is coming from when he raps, it's just an insight.  Always have been able to.  I think with my favorite artists I feel I have a pretty good idea where their coming from, and maybe that's why they are my favorites. 

You seem to be pretty sure of yourself on this one, and so am I about what I've been saying.